Kirby: Triple Deluxe

amhite

Edit history:

amhite: 2014-05-02 02:29:21 pm

amhite: 2014-05-02 02:27:45 pm

amhite: 2014-05-02 02:25:55 pm

amhite: 2014-05-02 02:25:47 pm

amhite: 2014-05-02 02:25:43 pm

amhite: 2014-04-20 04:08:02 am

amhite: 2014-04-20 04:07:43 am

amhite: 2014-04-19 11:59:06 pm

amhite: 2014-02-01 05:44:12 pm

2014-02-01 04:31:05 pm

I just finished the game and am now going through to find that optimal path. I'll keep all my notes for my first route in this post.

World 1 (Sun Stones required: 5)
*On stage 1, I get the sword ability at the first chance and use the right->right->B combo (the dash) to progress through the stage. I then get the fire ability at the first chance I get, because the dash is faster, more consistent, has more range, and allows Kirby to go airborne for a time. It is also continuous if you just keep pressing B as long as you're in the air. I keep the fire ability for every stage thereafter except for the boss stage. I'll talk about this stage later.

Sun Stones:
Stage 1: The very first sun stone in the game is required. Skip the second SS (caged).
SS so far: 1
Stage 2: Grab the first SS (chest). Grab the second SS (cannons). Skip the third.
SS so far: 3
Stage 3: Skip the first 3 SS. Grab the last SS (right before the end stage door).
So far: 4
Stage 4: Skip the first one. I get the third one here. If you're fast enough with your fire ability, you can go through all of the fires in the room with the roped carts. I pick up the key and ride the last two carts through the fires to get the last SS.
So far: 5

Mini-bosses:
Stage 1: This one is pretty simple. You can get the third mole the first time he pops up if your timing is good. Stay at the bottom the entire fight.
Stage 2: Go to the very right side of the arena and just hold down B with the fire ability. You can make the length of the flame increase by holding left (if you're facing left, of course). So you can just sit there and end it quickly and continue to the right as soon as he's defeated.
Stage 4: Use the same strat on this mini-boss.

Stage 5 (Boss Stage):
I timed what I found to be the best strategies using all 3 of the available abilities here. You can "3-cycle" this boss using the fire ability or the beetle ability. I use the fire, so I can continue using it on the next stage. Run up to the tree and stand on the left side. Face right and use the fire ability. Hold right on the dpad, and you'll turn into a stationary bonfire. It does a lot of damage. All you have to do is hold B here. When he sends his roots over to the foreground from the background, if you're still standing there, you'll damage two roots at a time for the longest time possible doing the most damage per second. He'll return to the foreground again, and you can finish him off here doing the same thing (bonfire thing).
Continue to the next world (2-1).

I'll edit this post and continue later as I route more.

Thread title:

I just finished the game and am now going through to find that optimal path. I'll keep all my notes for my first route in this post.

[size="14"][b]World 1 (Sun Stones required: 5)[/b][/size]
*On stage 1, I get the sword ability at the first chance and use the right->right->B combo (the dash) to progress through the stage. I then get the fire ability at the first chance I get, because the dash is faster, more consistent, has more range, and allows Kirby to go airborne for a time. It is also continuous if you just keep pressing B as long as you're in the air. I keep the fire ability for every stage thereafter except for the boss stage. I'll talk about this stage later.

[i][u]Sun Stones:[/u][/i]
[u]Stage 1:[/u] The very first sun stone in the game is required. Skip the second SS (caged).
[i]SS so far: 1[/i]
[u]Stage 2:[/u] Grab the first SS (chest). Grab the second SS (cannons). Skip the third.
[i]SS so far: 3[/i]
[u]Stage 3:[/u] Skip the first 3 SS. Grab the last SS (right before the end stage door).
[i]So far: 4[/i]
[u]Stage 4:[/u] Skip the first one. I get the third one here. If you're fast enough with your fire ability, you can go through all of the fires in the room with the roped carts. I pick up the key and ride the last two carts through the fires to get the last SS.
So far: [i]5[/i]

[i][u]Mini-bosses:[/u][/i]
[u]Stage 1:[/u] This one is pretty simple. You can get the third mole the first time he pops up if your timing is good. Stay at the bottom the entire fight.
[u]Stage 2:[/u] Go to the very right side of the arena and just hold down B with the fire ability. You can make the length of the flame increase by holding left (if you're facing left, of course). So you can just sit there and end it quickly and continue to the right as soon as he's defeated.
[u]Stage 4:[/u] Use the same strat on this mini-boss.

[i][u]Stage 5 (Boss Stage):[/u][/i]
I timed what I found to be the best strategies using all 3 of the available abilities here. You can "3-cycle" this boss using the fire ability or the beetle ability. I use the fire, so I can continue using it on the next stage. Run up to the tree and stand on the left side. Face right and use the fire ability. Hold right on the dpad, and you'll turn into a stationary bonfire. It does a lot of damage. All you have to do is hold B here. When he sends his roots over to the foreground from the background, if you're still standing there, you'll damage two roots at a time for the longest time possible doing the most damage per second. He'll return to the foreground again, and you can finish him off here doing the same thing (bonfire thing).
[i]Continue to the next world (2-1).[/i]

[b]I'll edit this post and continue later as I route more.[/b]

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-06 09:16:42 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:35:13 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:30:17 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:26:04 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:25:38 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:23:42 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:23:10 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:21:08 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:20:31 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-02 11:17:46 am

2014-05-02 11:15:10 am

<(^_^)>

Physics are basically the same as KRtDL, so almost everything movement-wise that's in SDA's knowledge base for KRtDL should apply to K:TD as well. A few key differences:

-Ability stars cannot be recycled anymore. You can't catch a bouncing ability star, and if you eat another one, the previous ability star disappears immediately. This gives a lot less leniency with recycling abilities unlike in KRtDL Sad

(aka you can't have fire, drop it, pick it up, use sword for, say, a rope, drop sword, then re-use the fire you dropped before)
-Mixing requires 2 enemies like in most kirby games (unlike KRtDL which required 3, because of the super sucking).
-There's no animation for kirby sliding off a ledge unlike in KRtDL. This is GOOD, sliding off ledges will always be better (as long as you land early; otherwise you're better off running and jumping)
-You can damage bosses during their "phase change" unlike KRtDL bosses where they're completely invincible. It does very minimal damage though.
-Fire is pretty ridiculously fast for horizontal speed, might even be faster than wheel
-Sliding is still faster than running. And again, sliding/running uphill is slower than flat ground, which is slower than downhill, so run+jump uphill and always slide otherwise (assuming no abilities)
-Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, you don't get a height boost for doing standard ability attacks at the peak of your jump, so there's no way to get an extra block of height at the peak of your jump without puffing instead with abilities like cutter and leaf (in KRtDL, you can use leaf rain / boomerang to get an extra block of height without puffing, for example)
-In KRtDL, it saves some frames to drop the key about a half block from a locked door. This is still faster in triple deluxe, but kirby bounces off so you need to move into the door before it opens to save frames.
-Archer kirby is pretty awesome
-Spark kirby is even worse than in KRtDL, thanks to no shaking Sad

Key Mobile Abilities:
-Fire. Burning is just ridiculous in this game, and the height aspect seems to arc (aka if you burning at the start of a jump, you keep ascending a bit then stop ascending, then start losing height).
-Wheel. On its own, it's honestly pretty slow, but rocket start makes it go really fast; spamming rocket start + sky wheel seems to be the best form of movement for this. This got way more versatile over the KSS/KSSU version of wheel (it's basically wheelie helper from KSSU, but better), as long as there's ground to travel on.
-Wing. The most versatile mobile ability, but burning got a huge mobility buff so we probably won't see wing as much. Still probably the best ability for ascending (besides maybe beetle)
-Ice. This shows up at pretty nice opportune moments, and it has the factor where if you jump out of ice skating, your horizontal speed is the same as ice skating (as opposed to running). Decent option if the other three aren't available

Physics are basically the same as KRtDL, so almost everything movement-wise that's in SDA's knowledge base for KRtDL should apply to K:TD as well. A few key differences:

-Ability stars cannot be recycled anymore. You can't catch a bouncing ability star, and if you eat another one, the previous ability star disappears immediately. This gives a lot less leniency with recycling abilities unlike in KRtDL :( (aka you can't have fire, drop it, pick it up, use sword for, say, a rope, drop sword, then re-use the fire you dropped before)
-Mixing requires 2 enemies like in most kirby games (unlike KRtDL which required 3, because of the super sucking).
-There's no animation for kirby sliding off a ledge unlike in KRtDL. This is GOOD, sliding off ledges will always be better (as long as you land early; otherwise you're better off running and jumping)
-You can damage bosses during their "phase change" unlike KRtDL bosses where they're completely invincible. It does very minimal damage though.
-Fire is pretty ridiculously fast for horizontal speed, might even be faster than wheel
-Sliding is still faster than running. And again, sliding/running uphill is slower than flat ground, which is slower than downhill, so run+jump uphill and always slide otherwise (assuming no abilities)
-Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, you don't get a height boost for doing standard ability attacks at the peak of your jump, so there's no way to get an extra block of height at the peak of your jump without puffing instead with abilities like cutter and leaf (in KRtDL, you can use leaf rain / boomerang to get an extra block of height without puffing, for example)
-In KRtDL, it saves some frames to drop the key about a half block from a locked door. This is still faster in triple deluxe, but kirby bounces off so you need to move into the door before it opens to save frames.
-Archer kirby is pretty awesome
-Spark kirby is even worse than in KRtDL, thanks to no shaking :(

Key Mobile Abilities:
-Fire. Burning is just ridiculous in this game, and the height aspect seems to arc (aka if you burning at the start of a jump, you keep ascending a bit then stop ascending, then start losing height).
-Wheel. On its own, it's honestly pretty slow, but rocket start makes it go really fast; spamming rocket start + sky wheel seems to be the best form of movement for this. This got way more versatile over the KSS/KSSU version of wheel (it's basically wheelie helper from KSSU, but better), as long as there's ground to travel on.
-Wing. The most versatile mobile ability, but burning got a huge mobility buff so we probably won't see wing as much. Still probably the best ability for ascending (besides maybe beetle)
-Ice. This shows up at pretty nice opportune moments, and it has the factor where if you jump out of ice skating, your horizontal speed is the same as ice skating (as opposed to running). Decent option if the other three aren't available

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-05 11:31:50 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-05 11:27:36 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-05 11:25:41 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-05 11:13:35 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-05 11:13:28 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-05 10:41:19 am

2014-05-05 08:30:40 am

<(^_^)>

I mostly decided this by myself, but I think it'd be good to have a category called "all sun stones" because, well, 100% is stupid (keychains) and i'm too lazy to route out which sun stones are fastest to get for any%.

Plus I think it'd be good to have arena, true arena, and dedede tour as separate categories/modes anyways.

So I started up a google drive spreadsheet with the route I've laid out for all sun stones; let me know if there's any improvements you think I can make in it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RxAlv6Ca3nhZT2rUCKwLj_5aG6Dp14mp17sjj64aO30/edit#gid=0

Anyways, more similarities/differences in physics and such ,between this and KRtDL:

-flap-canceling dive bombs into door entries still work, and is sexy
-Burning is very slightly faster than condor head, in terms of just horizontal speed. I'll update this with wheel, but Im sure wheel is faster if you spam rocket start + sky wheel
-Parasol Drill and Dive Bomb are still OP (the latter not as much Sad

)
-Beetle is surprisingly versatile; not as fast as fire/wing, but has some good power behind it

EDIT: I did some testing on flowery woods. Fire and Beetle finish it within a second of each other (i'd probably use fire, it's easier IMO and has the hub mobility advantage). Wing finishes both phases considerably more quickly, and it has both horizontal and down mobility needed at the start of 2-1, so for all-stones, wing should be used since wing is easy to get in the extra stage. For any%, I'd probably say fire since fire can traverse the 2nd room of 2-1 a lot more effectively than beetle.

I mostly decided this by myself, but I think it'd be good to have a category called "all sun stones" because, well, 100% is stupid (keychains) and i'm too lazy to route out which sun stones are fastest to get for any%.

Plus I think it'd be good to have arena, true arena, and dedede tour as separate categories/modes anyways.

So I started up a google drive spreadsheet with the route I've laid out for all sun stones; let me know if there's any improvements you think I can make in it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RxAlv6Ca3nhZT2rUCKwLj_5aG6Dp14mp17sjj64aO30/edit#gid=0

Anyways, more similarities/differences in physics and such ,between this and KRtDL:

-flap-canceling dive bombs into door entries still work, and is sexy
-Burning is very slightly faster than condor head, in terms of just horizontal speed. I'll update this with wheel, but Im sure wheel is faster if you spam rocket start + sky wheel
-Parasol Drill and Dive Bomb are still OP (the latter not as much :( )
-Beetle is surprisingly versatile; not as fast as fire/wing, but has some good power behind it

EDIT: I did some testing on flowery woods. Fire and Beetle finish it within a second of each other (i'd probably use fire, it's easier IMO and has the hub mobility advantage). Wing finishes both phases considerably more quickly, and it has both horizontal and down mobility needed at the start of 2-1, so for all-stones, wing should be used since wing is easy to get in the extra stage. For any%, I'd probably say fire since fire can traverse the 2nd room of 2-1 a lot more effectively than beetle.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-06 04:01:59 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-06 03:49:08 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-06 11:52:54 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-06 09:26:15 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-06 09:18:29 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-06 09:18:02 am

2014-05-06 09:15:56 am

<(^_^)>

I found a route where you mix for wing in level 2-4. If done well, it would be considerably faster for both any% and all sun stones, as it's one of (if not the only) few abilities that can kill paintra quickly, as well as traverse levels quickly.

The room is where the key carrier is running in the background. Touch the sparky from the left side to knock it right, then suck it and the circus enemy on the higher ledge at the same time, then begin the mix. Mixing here seems to always give this roulette:

cutter
circus
wheel
spark
ninja
stone
mike
spear
parasol
archer
beam
hammer
fire
leaf
beetle
needle
fighter
sleep
crash
sword
whip
ice
bell
bomb
wing

It starts at a random spot, but it's always the same roulette. I'm not sure if this roulette applies to mixing anywhere or which level you're in, but for the case of eating two enemies level 2-4, the roulette is always the same here (doesn't matter which enemies). I'll post again once I look into this a bit more.

Also this isn't close to as bad as KRtDL, since the roulette is always the same (for this case). And it's much easier to buffer with the home menu, unlike in KRtDL. Just hold A when you hit home menu on the ability you want, and you should get it (this didn't work only once; it might've been because maybe holding A registers on the NEXT FRAME, and when I home menu'd on wing once, i must've menu'd on the last possible frame, so I got cutter when the game inputted A the next frame)

EDIT: The route I'm testing right now for all-sun-stones is whether it's faster to just keep wing in level 2-1 after finishing the wheelie miniboss, or take wheelie.

EDIT2: Keeping wing is way better

I found a route where you mix for wing in level 2-4. If done well, it would be considerably faster for both any% and all sun stones, as it's one of (if not the only) few abilities that can kill paintra quickly, as well as traverse levels quickly.

The room is where the key carrier is running in the background. Touch the sparky from the left side to knock it right, then suck it and the circus enemy on the higher ledge at the same time, then begin the mix. Mixing here seems to always give this roulette:

cutter
circus
wheel
spark
ninja
stone
mike
spear
parasol
archer
beam
hammer
fire
leaf
beetle
needle
fighter
sleep
crash
sword
whip
ice
bell
bomb
wing

It starts at a random spot, but it's always the same roulette. I'm not sure if this roulette applies to mixing anywhere or which level you're in, but for the case of eating two enemies level 2-4, the roulette is always the same here [b](doesn't matter which enemies)[/b]. I'll post again once I look into this a bit more.

Also this isn't close to as bad as KRtDL, since the roulette is always the same (for this case). And it's much easier to buffer with the home menu, unlike in KRtDL. Just hold A when you hit home menu on the ability you want, and you should get it (this didn't work only once; it might've been because maybe holding A registers on the NEXT FRAME, and when I home menu'd on wing once, i must've menu'd on the last possible frame, so I got cutter when the game inputted A the next frame)

EDIT: The route I'm testing right now for all-sun-stones is whether it's faster to just keep wing in level 2-1 after finishing the wheelie miniboss, or take wheelie.

EDIT2: Keeping wing is way better

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-07 04:02:34 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-07 04:02:30 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-07 04:02:29 pm

2014-05-07 03:29:28 pm

<(^_^)>

Update on the route so far. I did a test run of all-sun-stones from worlds 1-2 and it took me about 40ish minutes, and it was a bad run.

World 2's route is literally keep wing the entire way through.

World 3 also keeps wing until 3-3, where fire is obtained to light up a cannon for a sun stone. Fire is replaced with wing at the start of 3-4, archer is used for the one puzzle room, then wing is collected right after again (the developers like giving birdons everywhere in world 3). In level 3-5, the flame galboros is eaten for fire to melt ice. Hammer is obtained in 3-E to kill a miniboss quickly. Then backtrack to 3-4 to eat a birdon at the very start of the level, and fight kracko with wing.

Just on level 3-B alone, hammer is about 5 seconds slower on kracko and his hub than using wing. However, it could break even if you YOLO'd with hammer and tried to hammer flip kracko during his yellow-spike attack (good luck!). The problem is, if you went hammer route, then you'd start at world 4 on the map, go back to 3-4, get wing, then go back to world 4, which is a few seconds lost compared to the wing route where after 3-E, you backtrack two levels and grab wing, which is less time wasted on the map anyways.

I was hoping there'd be more variety in abilities for all sun stones, but unfortunately that's not the case (unlike KRtDL 100% which uses literally every non-limited ability at least once) =/

tl;dr wing is OP

Update on the route so far. I did a test run of all-sun-stones from worlds 1-2 and it took me about 40ish minutes, and it was a bad run.

World 2's route is literally keep wing the entire way through.

World 3 also keeps wing until 3-3, where fire is obtained to light up a cannon for a sun stone. Fire is replaced with wing at the start of 3-4, archer is used for the one puzzle room, then wing is collected right after again (the developers like giving birdons everywhere in world 3). In level 3-5, the flame galboros is eaten for fire to melt ice. Hammer is obtained in 3-E to kill a miniboss quickly. Then backtrack to 3-4 to eat a birdon at the very start of the level, and fight kracko with wing.

Just on level 3-B alone, hammer is about 5 seconds slower on kracko and his hub than using wing. However, it could break even if you YOLO'd with hammer and tried to hammer flip kracko during his yellow-spike attack (good luck!). The problem is, if you went hammer route, then you'd start at world 4 on the map, go back to 3-4, get wing, then go back to world 4, which is a few seconds lost compared to the wing route where after 3-E, you backtrack two levels and grab wing, which is less time wasted on the map anyways.

I was hoping there'd be more variety in abilities for all sun stones, but unfortunately that's not the case (unlike KRtDL 100% which uses literally every non-limited ability at least once) =/

tl;dr wing is OP

hotdogturtle

2014-05-08 03:16:13 pm

I want to see someone route and run Dededetour.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 12:09:04 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 12:08:13 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 12:08:12 am

2014-05-08 04:58:15 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from hotdogturtle:

I want to see someone route and run Dededetour.

there wouldn't exactly be much routing honestly... I'll probably work on it after I finish up all sun stones and any%, if no one else is. I know anwonu's been doing arena / true arena lately.

EDIT: So on the outdoor phase of queen septomia (so the phase after you pass by a hub with vines and several abilities), if you die 5 (?) times, then the gaps of the arena you stand on are replaced with, well, more platform. Bandana dee also gives you a golden max tomato. This doesn't really affect speedrunning, but argh this makes practicing the final boss very annoying :S

TrUShade

2014-05-09 11:26:44 am

The TrUest of Shades

So this is just my opinion, but I found archer to be very useful against Kracko, Queen Septomia (both phases), and the snake thing (can't think of his name right now). Just cause camouflage is so broken in single player mode (not including kirby fighters) that you take no damage while in camouflage form.

I found it useful for Arena and True Arena as well. But, i mean I also want to route this, i just haven't had time due to being on a cruise for the last week.

Anwonu

Edit history:

Anwonu: 2014-05-09 01:38:24 pm

Anwonu: 2014-05-09 01:36:37 pm

2014-05-09 01:28:16 pm

CHOKES

I'm actually interested in trying any%. I'm trying to check which sun stones are faster to get, but I'm a bit too lazy to test =p
For world 1, some look a bit close to each other, time wise. (using A,B,C, etc for sun order =p)
1-1 A - forced
1-1 B - this is kind of fast, considering you're already forced to push the 2nd block. About 6s to get (not including the "get" animation)
1-2 A - pretty much in the way, though there are breakable blocks.
1-2 B - in the way.
1-3 D - almost in the way.
1-4 B - I'd think this one is faster than 1-A.
1-4 C doesn't sound look like it's worth it. Using burn to go through the fires sounds faster than bringing the key.

Is wing better than fire? Fire seems to be faster when straight (even though we need to reset air time), but has some problems with minibosses and bosses..
(edited stage formatting)

amhite

Edit history:

amhite: 2014-05-09 01:46:02 pm

amhite: 2014-05-09 01:44:53 pm

2014-05-09 01:43:27 pm

I still think fire seems to be better in almost all situations.

I'm more interested in any%, too. I've only routed what I think is best for the first world. I can't decide whether or not I should get the second SS on 1-1. If I did that, I would skip the latter two on 1-4. I don't know. If you are extremely fast, you can burn through the fires and get to the key with enough time to ride the carts (with the key) on the third level through the fire. The invincibility lasts long enough, but it's kinda hard to pull off. Still, even if you do that, I'm not sure if it's faster than just getting the optional SS on 1-1.

Also, I had a dream about this game last night. What the hell?

Anwonu

2014-05-09 02:38:01 pm

CHOKES

World 2 Sun Stones (most were considered with wing):
2-1 A - almost in the way
2-1 C - faster than I thought
2-2 D - ~10s to get, I believe; didn't time this one properly
2-3 A - with wing, it's about 12s to get.
2-3 C - just don't forget to get the key
2-4 B - faster than I thought

Close ones are 2-1 B (14s), 2-2 B (16), 2-3 B (15?).

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:34:20 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:34:18 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:34:17 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:33:51 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:32:43 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:29:55 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:24:14 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:23:53 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:23:38 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:23:09 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:22:40 pm

2014-05-09 03:21:55 pm

<(^_^)>

There is no ability in the game that has both the mobility and boss-slaying aspects that wing has (hammer and ninja are both great offensively, but aren't good for mobility. Fire is barely faster horizontally, but doesn't have close to the vertical mobility that wing has (this is huge), nor being able to stay in the air as long as wing without landing (after 5-6 burnings, you're at the same altitude that you started at with fire). Wing also has versatility in door dive cancels, hitting warp stars instantly via dive bomb, and so on as well.

I tried a few different routes for all sun stones and such, but in basically every case I tested, it's better to just keep wing. (Trust me, I really wanted more diversity with abilities, but have been repeatedly disappointed that keeping wing is faster :P) The only time I ever actually ditch wing in all sun stones is if I actually need some other ability (i.e. burn/freeze something or archer puzzle).

Key examples in all-sun-stones are:

2-1. Taking wheel for wheelie helper saves 8-10 seconds in 2-1 and 2-2, but loses much more time in 2-3 and 2-4, compared to just keeping wing
3-B. Using Hammer on coily rattler is slightly faster than wing if you pull off all the hammer flips, but you lose a ton of time due to lack of mobility at 4-1. It's better to actually detour to 3-4 for wing (which has a birdon at the very start)
5-B. Using Hammer saves 5 seconds including the boss hub, but you lose a crapton of time at the start of 6-1

There aren't any convenient spots in world 1 to get wing, in any% (there's a birdon in 1-E but you won't go there in any%). I'm sure mixing for wing in 2-4 is overall best since wing is so mobile and also destroys paintra.

On a whim, the best route for any% is likely fire until level 2-4 (maybe get wheel in 2-1?), then mix for wing and roflstomp the rest of the game with wing til endgame.

EDIT: I forgot to mention something important. Wheel is pretty freaking powerful on grounded minibosses. Spam Wheel Turn Jump inside the grounded boss; you'll do a lot of damage and you're invincible the entire time, so yeah. A lot more reliable and probably better than fire on minibosses.

There is no ability in the game that has both the mobility and boss-slaying aspects that wing has (hammer and ninja are both great offensively, but aren't good for mobility. Fire is barely faster horizontally, but doesn't have close to the vertical mobility that wing has (this is huge), nor being able to stay in the air as long as wing without landing (after 5-6 burnings, you're at the same altitude that you started at with fire). Wing also has versatility in door dive cancels, hitting warp stars instantly via dive bomb, and so on as well.

I tried a few different routes for all sun stones and such, but in basically every case I tested, it's better to just keep wing. (Trust me, I really wanted more diversity with abilities, but have been repeatedly disappointed that keeping wing is faster :P) The only time I ever actually ditch wing in all sun stones is if I actually need some other ability (i.e. burn/freeze something or archer puzzle).

Key examples in all-sun-stones are:

2-1. Taking wheel for wheelie helper saves 8-10 seconds in 2-1 and 2-2, but loses much more time in 2-3 and 2-4, compared to just keeping wing
3-B. Using Hammer on coily rattler is slightly faster than wing if you pull off all the hammer flips, but you lose a ton of time due to lack of mobility at 4-1. It's better to actually detour to 3-4 for wing (which has a birdon at the very start)
5-B. Using Hammer saves 5 seconds including the boss hub, but you lose a crapton of time at the start of 6-1

There aren't any convenient spots in world 1 to get wing, in any% (there's a birdon in 1-E but you won't go there in any%). I'm sure mixing for wing in 2-4 is overall best since wing is so mobile and also destroys paintra.

On a whim, the best route for any% is likely fire until level 2-4 (maybe get wheel in 2-1?), then mix for wing and roflstomp the rest of the game with wing til endgame.

EDIT: I forgot to mention something important. Wheel is pretty freaking powerful on grounded minibosses. Spam Wheel Turn Jump inside the grounded boss; you'll do a lot of damage and you're invincible the entire time, so yeah. A lot more reliable and probably better than fire on minibosses.

amhite

2014-05-09 03:30:09 pm

Quote from Anwonu:

1-1 A - forced
1-1 B - this is kind of fast, considering you're already forced to push the 2nd block. About 6s to get (not including the "get" animation)
1-4 B - I'd think this one is faster than 1-A.

Did you mean 1-1 B? lol

Do either of you have any ILs uploaded or anything?

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:45:16 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:45:09 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:44:43 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:44:34 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:44:24 pm

2014-05-09 03:43:39 pm

<(^_^)>

No, I won't have any videos of anything since I don't have a 3ds capture (and won't until loopy finishes his 3ds xl capture stuff). Unless something is incredibly important. Anwonu'll probably have good IL videos (the most I can do before I can get a 3ds capture is probably bother him about tiny improvements Tongue

)

Also it's barely possible to beat coily rattler in 3-B with wing before his red ring spinning attack.... this is going to be fun
And it's barely possible to beat paintra in 2-B before its 3 background spike attack comes out. YAY.

Anwonu

2014-05-09 03:55:37 pm

CHOKES

Yeah amhite, I meant 1-1 B there =p

kirbymastah, when you say mix in 2-4, do you mean the room with the key? It's so annoying to get a mix there though =p (there's a Waddle Doo with a parasol on 2-1, which is much easier to mix =p)

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 04:00:00 pm

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 03:58:13 pm

2014-05-09 03:57:46 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from Anwonu:

kirbymastah, when you say mix in 2-4, do you mean the room with the key? It's so annoying to get a mix there though =p (there's a Waddle Doo with a parasol on 2-1, which is much easier to mix =p)

Yeah, I mean the room with the key holder in the background (I just defend on a sparky to knock it right, then eat it and the clown)

Oh there is? I didn't realize you can mix in 2-1 Tongue

Which room? It'd probably be better to mix there then since it would be earlier

EDIT: And trushade mentioned archer before. Archer seems to do pretty decently against bosses/minibosses honestly (though again, not really worth replacing wing over), and there's actually a spot in all sun stones where I fight a miniboss with archer right after an archer puzzle

TrUShade

2014-05-09 04:03:56 pm

The TrUest of Shades

Well, you can get archer before Queen Septomia which is really useful. Especially last part of her inside form, you can take down in three shots with Archer.

Anwonu

2014-05-09 04:04:32 pm

CHOKES

Quote from kirbymastah:

Oh there is? I didn't realize you can mix in 2-1 Tongue

Which room? It'd probably be better to mix there then since it would be earlier

3rd room, right after Bandana Dee.

kirbymastah

2014-05-09 04:05:43 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from TrUShade:

Well, you can get archer before Queen Septomia which is really useful. Especially last part of her inside form, you can take down in three shots with Archer.

At least for all sun stones, I haven't gotten around to routing out the latter half of world 6 yet Tongue

Though out of the 4 abilities provided before masked dedede, archer would be best (notice that the 4 abilities are all the new abilities in triple deluxe :3 )

When in the vine hub before the 2nd half of queen septomia, wing is provided so that would obviously be used over all the other provided abilities (hammer miiiight be better? But i'm not sure where you'd get that in any% or sun stones)

Anwonu

2014-05-09 05:49:05 pm

CHOKES

Sooo.. world 3 is almost the opposite than the others: too many SS are kind of fast =p
3-1 B: absorb a train with a chest, 6-7s
3-2 C: don't destroy a pillar, get star to get to chest, ~8
3-3 A: to get it, you must bring the ray thing until the end; normal route should drop it after 2nd wall; no idea how much it takes
3-3 B: right from the long corridors where we usually use stone casually, ~5
3-4 A: while going up after gettting candy, on the left side, no idea how much it takes (this should consider the time lost from not using candy to go faster)
3-4 C: at the end, go past the final door and get the star, ~9
3-5 A: if you prefer fire; otherwise, no
3-5 B: wait for the key; ~9
3-5 C: on the way, but you must complete the snowmen the right way; maybe this one should be skipped?
3-5 D: on the way, chest inside wooden house

Underlined is what I'd do for now.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-09 06:04:48 pm

2014-05-09 06:04:25 pm

<(^_^)>

Sorry anwonu that you're doing all the any% testing for the SS's; I'll do some of the testing next week after my finals are done and I finish routing all sun stones, then I'll double check your timings. Best to be safer than sorry Smiley

amhite

Edit history:

amhite: 2014-05-09 10:23:44 pm

amhite: 2014-05-09 10:23:22 pm

2014-05-09 09:41:29 pm

Quote from kirbymastah:

There aren't any convenient spots in world 1 to get wing, in any% (there's a birdon in 1-E but you won't go there in any%).

You can mix on 1-3. Is that useful at all?

How is the wings ability faster on flowery woods? You said considerably faster, but I'm not getting a time anywhere near my fire kirby times.

Anwonu

2014-05-09 11:32:11 pm

CHOKES

My wing and fire are getting close times; about 57s from entering door to last hit (with the boss already beaten, so no long cutscene).

World 4:
4-1 C - on your way, in the middle of the giant spinning tree
4-2 B - this may be a little annoying to get with wing, but possible and fast; you can also change to wheel here, and it doesn't seem to be that bad (4-3 is mostly no-ability and hyper nova, 4-4 is pretty wheel friendly, and 4-5 has some problems, but isn't that bad; there's a fire in 4-4 and 4-5 as well), though if you want wing again later, I don't know where the closest is
4-2 C - close to the final door; almost on the way, though if you miss the 1st water cycle, you'll lose a lot of time
4-3 B - grab the key on invisible platforms; ~8s
4-3 C - suck one of the statues to get it; ~7
4-3 D - I think this should be skipped, but could be a backup SS if you miss 4-2 C or something; ~10
4-4 B - treasure chest that comes while you fight blocky; so depends how long the fight goes. I'd say ~12s, so I'd skip
4-4 C - same room as final door, almost on the way, under those crumble tiles; ~5?
4-5 A - faster than I thought; treasure chest under a waddle doo: get star, kill waddle doo, star back, lift platform, get treasure chest; ~9
4-5 B - treasure chest behind a door; if you plan to keep wheel until boss, this should be skipped (I only see 1 advantage with this: to use it in the room after this SS, because it looks wheel friendly as well); ~6?

My wing and fire are getting close times; about 57s from entering door to last hit (with the boss already beaten, so no long cutscene).

World 4:
4-1 C - on your way, in the middle of the giant spinning tree
4-2 B - this may be a little annoying to get with wing, but possible and fast; you can also change to wheel here, and it doesn't seem to be that bad (4-3 is mostly no-ability and hyper nova, 4-4 is pretty wheel friendly, and 4-5 has some problems, but isn't that bad; there's a fire in 4-4 and 4-5 as well), though if you want wing again later, I don't know where the closest is
4-2 C - close to the final door; almost on the way, though if you miss the 1st water cycle, you'll lose a lot of time
4-3 B - grab the key on invisible platforms; ~8s
4-3 C - suck one of the statues to get it; ~7
4-3 D - I think this should be skipped, but could be a backup SS if you miss 4-2 C or something; ~10
4-4 B - treasure chest that comes while you fight blocky; so depends how long the fight goes. I'd say ~12s, so I'd skip
4-4 C - same room as final door, almost on the way, under those crumble tiles; ~5?
4-5 A - faster than I thought; treasure chest under a waddle doo: get star, kill waddle doo, star back, lift platform, get treasure chest; ~9
4-5 B - treasure chest behind a door; if you plan to keep wheel until boss, this should be skipped (I only see 1 advantage with this: to use it in the room after this SS, because it looks wheel friendly as well); ~6?

amhite

2014-05-10 12:23:39 am

I get that time with fire but not wings. Hmm...

And are you getting faster times than 57s with wings, kirbymastah?

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-05-10 01:12:56 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-10 01:10:36 am

kirbymastah: 2014-05-10 01:08:46 am

2014-05-10 01:08:32 am

<(^_^)>

This game takes forever.

Horrrrrrrrrrrrible test run for all-sun-stones. I haven't practiced world 5-6 enough, and world 6 is absurdly long. Easily over 15-20 minutes of mistakes. But yeah, this game is really freaking long and not even that interesting honestly <_< I probably won't be grinding this category much. The first half is really fun but world 6 is just ugh...

As for flowery woods, an average fight for me with wing is around 50-52 seconds upon last hit (basically finish him just as he goes into the air to stomp me). I don't think it's possible to finish flowery woods before his roots pattern ends, but I've gotten around 2 dive bombs away :S