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MASTER-88: 2021-04-20 11:20:20 am
MASTER-88: 2010-07-09 03:12:26 am
This is one great quite short NES game. Some peoples said: Game is extremely frustrating to beat. But luckily there is no much way fuck run if you make something stupid. You also can make some bosses always faster & faster. I think no one can,t reach perfect big predator fights on console. As well every boss patterns are random less or more. Expect level 1-1 & 3-2 these fights can done with perfect speed on console and these fights not requires real luck manipulation IMO.

Current TAS time is 6.47. Older TAS was 9.55.
My new human skill SS run is done in 9.31. I use US emulator but i use SDA rules with my run. I know emulator run is not accepted so i can,t never post that in serious site. But i just make it because game is interesting speedrun and i hope peoples like see real time (console runs)

Game includes luck things as well when you need take random drops. Stone wheel is not very rare, but fire weapon is extremely rare. I not lie, but i got it only once my 2 days run attempts, but i accidentally fuck this run later. So i not take it my current run. As far as i know fire drop is possible take only level 3-2. TAS take it first time here. Stone wheel is almost as effective, but against certain bosses fire is alot better. For example 4-1 & 4-2 boss is better with fire.

My 9.31 run is quite good unassist run IMO. Its not are perfect. There is flaws and especially Predator fights can be done always faster.

9.31 is quite good run IMO. It was even faster than first TAS record in tas page. But i think human limit are somewhere 8.30 range. Under 8 minutes sounds maybe too luck base for human. What do you thinkin my run? Is anyone interested speedrun that game?

Thread title:  
I got this run my console a today.

I´ll put serious shot with this game. My best time on emulator was 9.31 without having luck got most effective fire weapon drop. I´ll put serious shots speedrunning with this game. I´ll set my orginal goal at least sub 8.30. Let see how happy i am then. Maybe sub 8 but let see. WR in youtube are 8.5x. This not was optimize run but this runner has luck got both item drops.

I´ll maybe try low-% (axes only run) too. This not includes luck manipulation drops, but axes make insanely difficult beat 4-2 & 5-1 boss fight.

This is very good game IMO. Its not very hard to beat, but speedrunning is so random. But i´ll put my shots after christmas. I am arleady running that with my emulator. Using console controlls make charge hits a lot easier to make. This game is short and incredible luck requires. Is there any potential verifers with this game? Wink

I need ask because i think i´ll try seriously speedrun that game in near future.
Joe & Mac

9.26 (no fire drop)

5-seconds better than emulator run. I think if i got fire it would be 8.30-8.45. Overall this was really good and quite lucky run without fire drop. I was dissappoint with couple things in this run I not have luck in 2-1 when plant split me water i cannot use shortcut end of the level cost me 6-seconds

Bosses level 5-1 & 5-2 not was lucky enought. Like last time my emulator run these ones was just so cools.

Though i make quite good job with both predators fights (fire make level 4 predator faster than wheel) Level 3-1 boss was superb. This one is extremely random one i have almost perfect encounter against him. This is so rare got this fight well like here.

Biggest pain as in this game are got 2 manipulated item drop. You need wheel in 1-2 and fire in 3-2 (which is extremely rare) I am only got it twice my life so i not normally reset my game if not haved luck got it. It is just so rare item and you can,t got it elsewhere game. Wheel is also good weapon, but fire save a lot imporatant time with certain bosses and make some easier to kill. I hope i can got good fire run like this i should submit it then my dream goal are sub 8.30 but this surely requires fire drop.

Everyone who are played that game know how random and hard game it is running. Every bosses use always different encounters and bosses take a lot hits to kill. Controlls are crap and it is fact. Perfect run like TAS did is not possible on console and i am sure even close about TAS is not possible. Perfect console run would be low 8 minutes maybe under.
Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time
It is a fairly short game. So, manipulating luck as much as you can would help. You only get one weapon at a time in this game, then? That does seem to be a problem, but even with random boss battles, as you said, if you can get fire in the level you said you need it (which is pretty early in the game), improving this time doesn't seem to be too difficult. If you got the game down otherwise, luck is all you really need to work on :p
Quote from Mickey_Mage:
It is a fairly short game. So, manipulating luck as much as you can would help. You only get one weapon at a time in this game, then? That does seem to be a problem, but even with random boss battles, as you said, if you can get fire in the level you said you need it (which is pretty early in the game), improving this time doesn't seem to be too difficult. If you got the game down otherwise, luck is all you really need to work on :p

Yeah i agree this, but luck like TAS beat flying predators fights not are console possible. This make a lot time lost with TAS runs.

Yeah i agree speedrun will requires both weapons. Stone wheel level 1-2 & Fire level 3-2. (taking both in at one game is chance about 1/50 maybe 1/100 attempts) i am maded something 100 speedruns in this game and i am only twice got both weapons. Though fire is important against most bosses and it make some fights easier though. Somereason i not feel last fight any easier or faster with fire or not.

Yeah game is really short and it is easy to beat if you got stonewheel. Though game is so random with many places. Speedrun in this game is really hard and mostly luck.

So i think if game got enought verifers these verifers need are played that game through. Because otherwise it is really hard watch console run because only comparedable run are TAS (6.47) and its not realistic compared game like this.

Though Vaatiwindmage make "console" run in youtube with both weapons drop. His time was very high 8 minutes and its not was optimize like my previous runs, he just save all times with bosses in end game.

so i thinking i go for sub 8.30 before submission

This looks there is not are verifers with this game yet. Are you played that game Mickey Mage? You have SNES Joe & Mac WR in site
Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time
Sadly, I've never played this game, and don't own it :(. This seems to require a lot more luck than my game, though, so good luck with it. If the luck on the bosses is that hard to match (like the TAS did you said) then I'd worry more about getting a good run completed with both weapons and see what he best time you can get from there. If it happens to be sub 8:30, that sounds like a good time for a luck-based game like this, I think.
I test some random stuffs in this game.

This look every random drops depend how much points you haved. i did several test about fire drop in 3-2 i got fire weapon "always" when i haved somewhere 10600-10650 points. Its never coming if i haved less than 10600.

Also boss patterns depend points. Boss pattern changed if you collect different amount points. I did something 100 test attempt with savestates and find how manipulated random stuff. Though points coming random into game. Its depend how you kill boss fight and etc.. So you can,t know how much points you got with bosses. Game maybe changed points limit after every resets then you can,t know how manipulated weapons drops but if game not changed this will make fire drop easier in future.

But its fact i know every manipulate drop depends your points i am 99,9% sure with this. I´ll hope strategy got fire weapon requires at least 10600 points. You can,t got it before 3-2 i know because TAS pick up it until here.

Finally got both drops. Its took me about 3 hours and this was only attempt where i got both weapons. I was quite happy with this run. There not was any very bad errors.

Im not know going i submit this one because i not know is there verifers. I know sub 8.30 is possible but its requires more luck with bosses. Boss patterns are always differents (you can only manipulated perfect boss patterns and weapons used toolassist) My point theory doesn,t not work with skills because its always requires different amount points so you can,t manipulated boss patterns or weapons on console speedruns.

This game is impossible with perfected. This run was quite good on real Nes used. All comments are welcomed.  I´ll also hope someone are played that game and know how game work on.
I own this cart but as a kid I never got past the plant boss in the water level for some strange reason. The run looks pretty good, though there are some hits throughout the run that look like they could've been avoided.

Unless you want to get a better time, you should submit this anyway - if the SNES Joe & Mac had enough verifiers, I would think this would not be much harder to verify, despite being the less-played version.
Quote from cygher:
I own this cart but as a kid I never got past the plant boss in the water level for some strange reason. The run looks pretty good, though there are some hits throughout the run that look like they could've been avoided.

Unless you want to get a better time, you should submit this anyway - if the SNES Joe & Mac had enough verifiers, I would think this would not be much harder to verify, despite being the less-played version.

I think im not are very motivated try better run soon. This game is just way too luck based perfection and this run was quite lucky overall. Im not are played Snes version but i am hear its has very differents controlls and gameplay overall. Its nice to hear you are played that game and you can are potential verifer. You are maybe first who are played that game.  Wink
Edit history:
spacoina: 2010-03-30 11:27:49 am
Hey Master-88, I watched your run and first off
Quote from MASTER-88:
This look every random drops depend how much points you haved. i did several test about fire drop in 3-2 i got fire weapon "always" when i haved somewhere 10600-10650 points. Its never coming if i haved less than 10600.

you clearly meant 116000-116500, which does not make it, of course, any easier to get.

I appreciate how random this game is and the fact that you got a good run, because it really is pretty clean and, most importantly, very lucky with the drops. That luck with the drops compensates some sub-par boss fights IMO.

I'd just like to encourage you to try to get an even better time. This is a submittable run for sure but you said you got it in 3 hours, so maybe if you dedicate another 3 hour attempt session to this and get another run with both weapons, go all out with it since you already have a good enough run. Actually, disregard the stuff in the strikethrough. I just read the rest of the thread and realized how rare it is to get both drops. And you got a good run on top of that. So that makes it submission-worthy, and that's it.
Wow. Awesome see there is peoples who is interesting enought and hopefully can verifer my run too (if i going submit)

I am glad you are liked my run. Yeah drops are randomly to got, especially fire and its are middle of the game. Stone wheel located in 1-2 its not are big deal manipulated. Though my last run i haved incredible bad luck and its usually take me 10 attempts per each drop. Very often i miss game in 2-1 when 2nd plant spy acid with me and falling me into water. Also these happen randomly, plants spy acid random timing.

Also i often mess up boss fights totally. There is important boss fights like flying predators in 2-2 & 4-2 and also 3-1 boss is important which luckily went very well here. I was glad my 2-2 fight there not was any zero hit rounds which is extremely rare. Usually little predators ruin some throws and very often zero hit rounds coming. Avarage fight haved 1-2 zero hit round

Boss in 4-2 was also quite good. Also i avoid all zero hits round. But i make critical damage only once and its make much important time lost (TIPS: you can make critical damage with bosses if you throw flame vertically and you are very close boss faces) Look out 3-2 & 4-1 boss fights. These ones are much faster to beat if you used flame. Otherwise flame not caused any more damage with bosses than stone wheel. Its just as effective. Im not sure how critical damage working on 4-2 boss, but its sometimes happen if i did perfect hit when boss flies low. Its important overall and its might save several seconds in speedruns but its just lucky and precise.

Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-03-31 02:08:45 pm
Well i did beat this one

new record is

Again it take me another 3 hours improve my previous vid. I count good 100 or more attempts.

My level gameplay was one my best my 8.52 run. This time i did a lot more sloppy mistakes especially in 2-2 & 5-2. 5-1 was par like last time so its not was so good. Other levels went well enought almost non stop.

I did 2-2 predator 4 round faster which is my best fight ever (its maybe only reason why i redo my previous run a so lot my 2-2 boss was 15 seconds faster and i redo my previous run by 17 seconds). I was so close make it even one round faster, but unluckily miss it. This fight usually ruin my runs and its always frustrated start hold game again and manipulated stone wheel again. Predator fights are so random Big predator and mini predators used always different attack pattern so best of luck.

Also 2nd predator was quite good maybe par like last run. Last boss went quite well too. 1-2 boss haved very bad pattern but i not still lost much time. 5-1 boss pattern was near flawless, i was really happy with this one. Also 3-1 boss went quite well. Pattern not was my best, but its not seems too worst.

But improvement is always improvement. Its beat previous run by 17 seconds. Most time coming with predator fight in 2-2 which is one most important thing hold run.
I still keep playing that one. Usually i bored work my luck

A today i recorder two hours without luck got weapons drop

I did around 120-150 attempts
-I got stone wheel drop about 15-20 times. Yes i miss most my attempts with this. First guy give me boomerang almost every fucking attempts.  Sad
-I totally mess up first Predator fight 5/7 attempts. Two time he went down quite well. I did twice 7 round which is one round slower than my all around best fight my 8:35 run
-I reach level 3-2 three time and i didn,t haved luck got flame. One attempt was superb, but thats sad i didn´t, haved luck got that fucking drop.

I thinking i can going game as fast as my record without getting flame, but thats might requires extremely perfection boss fights. Flame save time 3-2, 4-1, 4-2 (only if you can did critical damage) & 5-1 boss. Last boss is not any faster, i find him even easier/faster used stone wheel because its throw faster and did same amount damage against him.

I still like back with this game. But usually lost motivation soon, because luck things really piss off. I think superb run might be sub 8 minutes. I think this is not very realistic goal because every patterns especially preadtors are so luck base. I think i wanted got 8.20-8.30 I think i can,t make first predator never fast what i did my 8:35 run. My avarage predator fight are done in 9-10 round. Thats really incredible got him down in 6 round. I think 5 round is best possible on console. TAS did him in 3 rounds. Predators fights is main reason why i did lost a lot time with TAS run.
4-5 recorded hours later i got beat my record

Only two shy seconds faster. Run quality seems better here. I make better work levels itself.

About predators fights. My first predator was around 10 seconds slower than last time. Thats was just done in 8 round. I usually wanted go 7 round or i reset but i was just way too tired. My Predator fight level 4-2 was really amazing, thats done in 5 round, its better than my any other runs. Its usually going 6-7 rounds. but i was just lucky here.

Last boss was quite unlucky and many fights includes a lot minor time lost. Thats not look very good but all fights depend much luck with patterns and controlls game like this are crap.

I managed a today
250 failled attempts (that all 4-5 hours) Im not play that all one sitting just used two sitting
I managed got stone wheel around 25-30 times
I managed got flame drop 4 times
I managed beat game twice (first one ended 8:48 and this new one 8.33)

Thats all what i wanted say. I think i´ll submit this new one. Its look speedrun. I think i cannot make this much better. Its really frustrating manipulated everything. These weapons drops and predaotr fights take so many reset. I usually spend hours before i reached 3-2. First predator ruin just so many attempts.

I think if i was got really good boss fights my time never ever going under 8 minutes. I think 8:10 seems absolutely max limit with human luck.
Thats vid my 8:33 run. Yes i seriously planning submit this one.

I think i´ll submit this one, because its looks i cannot redo that anymore. I am really happy levels itselfs every levels look quite solid. Boss fights was actually little bit slower than last time. Thats fact i lost 8 seconds time 2-2 Predator fight. And i lost 6 seconds with last boss fight, my patterns was just unlucky here and last boss is one really annoying fight too. My 4-2 Predator was whole 9 seconds faster than last time and only 11 seconds slower than TAS. Other bosses seems as fast as last time.

I counted if i can got perfect attack patterns with everysingle boss, my time would be 8.10 maybe under 8 minutes, but this is out my plan. That fact Predator can always faster. I totally lost over half minutes TAS run Predators only. Also TAS did got all perfect patterns and used unhuman throwing skills, so all TAS strategys are out my plan. But yeah most time lost compared TAS coming with boss fights, but these never ever can going perfectly any serious console runs. That just best of luck if someone try beat this time i´ll say its not easy task.

This run look better than my any other ones i lost some seconds with boss fights, but levels is played really well, so i am much more glad with this than previous run.

I watched the run and congrats, that's a very good time. We both know how the luck manipulation in this game works and how resetting over the drops in 3-2 again and again is so incredibly frustrating, because only very rarely do they come around, really. I was already impressed with the 8:35 so, of course, I'm very impressed with this run too.

HOWEVER, you seem to have potential to get an even better time, so I'd like to encourage you to go for a better time and not settle for this run. You did mention sub-8:30 as your goal, and I agree it's completely possible. If you have the patience and the time, even if you take a long break from this again, I know you'll get there sooner or later!
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-07-07 02:00:02 pm
Thanks Spacoina

Great hear your comment. Thats fact this run is technically very possible improvement as i already said with perfect patterns every boss fights time woule be 8:10 or maybe even faster. Thats just like Iron Sword run game is really frustrating because its requires a lot luck manipulation, even more than Iron Sword.

Im not seriosly care is my run 8:29 or 8:33. I think 8:33 can look even better than 8:29. I wanted make levels look high quality thats more important than some unlucky boss patterns for me.

Do you think is this submition worthy? Yes i´ll keep that still my progress and hoping better run, i ruin one my dream run which maybe was ended 8:25-8:30 but weird glitch happen level 5-2 and i fall through floor, that never happen already. Thats sad, but its not my fault like many things in this game.

Its might take time when i back with this game next time. I´ll got many news games in ebay maybe in this or next week.  Im not caring make anymore attempts with this very soon. Im not even know is there enought verifers and its might take months-years find verifers. I´ll hope you can verifer it because its look you know this game. Wink

Yes i´ll submit this one. I am quite hoping its accept because this is high qulaity looking run. Like i did always i´ll maybe back this game and try redo it later. Wink
Do not throw this run out, definitely. It's very good and submission worthy, IMO. I just have a feeling that you can do better and go for that really GREAT run, so I'm glad to hear you haven't given up on this yet Smiley

Also, yeah you've got at least one verifier Wink
Thanks Spacoina you solved my hard trouble got verifers.

This run is submited now. Its coming in verification later a today. Depend Mike LOL Cheesy

We have to one more verifer . Thats look 2-3 verifer must be are. If someone are interested  welcomed. Wink
Game is up in verification:

Welcomed to verifer it. Wink
Im not going post that in SDA yet, because my time suck with current speedruun stanard. But hell yeah i beat my SDA time with 7 seconds.
I´ll redo that later when i want. If someone can tell me how RNG working, i´ll migth learn better player. This one take me 2 hours and some hours emulator practice, i´ll want try find way how pick up flame drop. Its strongnly seems your points, because its easy manipulate emulator, but hard to make console.


I´ll better future. That was one project beat my old NES runs down.
8:02 High using SDA time rules. 25 second improvement over my previous and 32 seconds improve my SDA run

Pretty happy overall. Level 2-1 and boss was both bit worse. Also level 5-1 and boss encounter was bit worse. Otherwise much better looking run nearly everywhere. Nice predators fight, Both in 5 round. Very lucky last boss encounter.

Seriosly i was pretty surprised how close 8 minutes barrier i goes. Its only required 3 seconds to break it now.:)
Edit history:
ktwo: 2021-05-02 01:43:15 pm
ktwo: 2021-04-26 10:32:48 am
Good job, nice to see you back on this game!

I had a quick look in the code. I did find some things, but I'm not sure I went to the bottom of it. This type of analysis is quite time-consuming (at least for me), so I'll post a preliminary reply for now. Would be great to hear if this corresponds to what you, as someone who has played the game a lot, has experienced.

Ok, so with that disclaimer out of the way, this is my preliminary take on it. Changing the value of $0646 allows you to manipulate the drops. I haven't dug into exactly how that calculation works though. $0646 is a type of counter that increases every time you kill an enemy, but also at certain points in the game. From what I can tell, it's not dependent on any timer or similar. I believe the increases that are not triggered by killing enemies are consistent, but I haven't looked at it enough to say for sure. Maybe different RNG giving e.g. different boss patterns produce different increases to the counter or different length of boss kills can impact the result? Each increase of the counter is level-dependent ($0645), so you can't simply compensate a missed kill in one level with a kill in another level.

If what I've written above is correct and the complete picture, it should be possible to manipulate the drops by simply following the same route every time in terms of which enemies to kill. And if you kill one enemy too many/too few, you can normally only compensate in the same level. It might also be worth testing if you can compensate in a more complicated way, such as missing an enemy in level A, then kill an additional enemy in levels B and C and one less in level D? That would allow you to create some back-up strats.

For reference, Joe's current weapon is tracked by the value in $04A8. That's a useful RAM-address to look at for further analysis of the code on this topic.

Edit: Is this the raw recordings (and not an encode)? There is interlacing/ghosting. If this is because of you having uploaded the raw footage to youtube, that's ok. But if these are encodes, you should post a quality test in the tech section, because there will be an issue if you improve so much that you'd like to submit.
Thanks Ktwo. I actually make discuss topic with that drops forums. Yeah its mostly seems its just point which matter your drop. I personally did several different test about flame drops. You can see videos and discussa here. Its really seems certain points make flame drop more consistent, but its not 100% match.

But like Angel_Undead said here is not possible make that drops 100% of the time. Its just contains some luck. I mostly got flame drop when i hit that enemy and 100 000 points will to break. My actual run i got it with 2nd enemy because i have way too low points. I did some points counter videos. Its could be see in forum. (UPPER LINK)

Boss encounters in this game seems absolutely impossible manipulate. In future runs its 2-1 boss might be one most important time saver. (good 10-15 seconds) Then you also can use two water jump into level. But seriosly i am got 0 plant encounter once on emulator and once my console attempt. Thats so fucking rare.

2-2 and 4-2 boss i also hard make better. I am got both in 4 rounds and nearly 3 rounds on savestate, but actual speedrun might some super lottery.

My 8:02 got 5 & 5 round pteradons (fly dinosaur) fights, which was my best in actual speedruns ever.

Seriously i was really surprised how low sub 8 minutes barriers i goes my attempt. My actual goal was 8:15 or under. I think i´ll play that game yet and might submit run which go break sub 8 minutes barrier. But have to make quality test before attempt this.