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The Dork Knight himself.
It will only be considered illegal if you ended the re-done segment with LESS ammo/health/armor than the next segment. As for a timer, so long as it's for your own reference and isn't too intruding on the gameplay then it should be fine (I got the greenlight to use one for Jedi Academy).
Edit history:
Bacn: 2012-12-17 12:38:39 pm
Bacn: 2012-12-17 12:27:05 pm
Quote from gammadragon:
Bacn: Can you post your run on Youtube?

I could, but you aren't missing anything fancy. All the tricks are either outdated or obvious.

Edit: I tested the lightsaber skip with the guard in cloud city and it doesn't help very much. It only saves about 2 seconds off a 20 second conversation. Hardly noticeable and you're still getting shot at the entire time.
Edit history:
gammadragon: 2012-12-28 05:13:49 pm
Might be magic...
If you could do a jump onto the upper ledge just before that point, it would save a huge amount of time waiting for the conversation. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible as all the close ledges have invisible walls around them to prevent you getting up there, and the further ones would require a huge amount of speed to reach with a strafe jump.

Incidentally, I was playing around that area and found a useful skip just after the conversation, if you have a Portable Assault Sentry to waste:
Hello there.

I've been following this thread for some time now and am almost done with a speedrun of JK2. It contains most of the tricks described in this thread, in addition to new ones I've found myself. If my calculations are right, the final time is sub 45 minutes. I'll finish it as soon as I can and submit it.

The Dork Knight himself.
Recon: if you could, share your progress with the rest of us, this way you can avoid getting a rejection for sub-optimal tricks/strats.
I'm almost certain that I've included every noteworthy trick/shortcut/skip that has been described in this thread or otherwise been shown in the current speedrun on SDA  or LLCoolDave's latest videos. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of the massive skip in yavin_trial where you get the lightsaber much faster, the nice conversation skip you described in this thread (I'm using this in ns_starpad), "the climb" in cairn_bay, the jump over the river in artus_mine and the following sequence of getting onto the air vehicle without deactivating the red light. And the fast path in ns_hideout. There are surely more that I have not mentioned, but you get the idea. You can ask me about any particular tricks/skips if you want to, and I'll see if I've used it.

There is also a great deal of skips/tricks I use in my run that I have not seen anywhere. I'm not going to spoil them here, and this is for your own good actually. I think you should have the pleasure of just watching the speedrun and be surprised whenever there's something new. Smiley But if you are curious about something in particular e.g. the times for some of my levels you can ask me and I'll see what I can do.
Edit history:
IsraeliRD: 2012-12-29 05:07:32 am
Dragon Power Supreme
Just throwing it out, but there's been a recently rejected speedrun which may contain additional tricks you might not have seen. It's also something to read to see what the verifiers of that run thought about it and therefore what things to avoid as they might be suboptimal. Also note there's a video you can download at the end of the verification post which is of the rejected run. It'll be removed in just under 2 weeks so get going.

Anyway just echoing honorableJay and mentioning that if there are more possible things you haven't done that could accumulate into a sufficient amount of time saved in your run then it could be rejected. The verifiers for this game seem to be pretty picky Wink
Edit history:
gammadragon: 2012-12-30 12:18:58 am
gammadragon: 2012-12-29 06:55:55 am
gammadragon: 2012-12-29 06:36:28 am
Might be magic...
Here's Bacn's awesome trick for the cairn_reactor level. I hope it's not breaking any rules by uploading it to Youtube. Just let me know and I'll take it down.

Edit: Decided to re-record it instead - the linked video above is my own attempt at it.
IsraeliRD, thanks for the tip.

gammadragon, thanks for the link. It's funny though because I've already used that trick in my run. I'm just jumping up to the right side instead of the left. It is an awesome trick indeed. I was glad when I first succeeded in doing it because it seemed impossible at first. It's quite lucky that you get force speed rank 3 in that level, because without that, I don't think the jump would be possible.

Anyways, for another question. My run has very many segments in it, around 80 so far, and I'm wondering how I should submit the files to the site. Should I encode the files so there's one video per level, should I encode the run into one big video or should I just encode each segment for itself? I'm thinking that the first two options would be easier (so one doesn't have to open too many files). Also, in the encoded files, should I include loading screens and the end of each segment (which is just the menu)?
Dragon Power Supreme
It's up to you how to encode the files (all three options are valid, and the rejected speedrun had it every segment for itself). It's often recommended to leave loading screens + loading save file + actual save for consistency (especially for verifiers), but as a PC runner you have the choice of cutting those altogether when submitting.

I'm not familiar with this game but if you use manual saves (dunno if there are autosaves) then you should keep track of those, since manual saves result in the time penalty (0.5 per segment) whereas autosaves do not. That means if you have 80 manual saves then you're adding yourself 40 seconds (by SDA timing rules). Therefore ask yourself whether you're over-segmenting or is each segment worth that half a second penalty and you couldn't join a few together.
Thanks for the reply. I should say that I have started every segment with the loading screen and ended each segment with a second in the menu that pauses the game when you press Escape. So you don't see me actually saving in my recordings, but the menu is supposed to be an indicator that timing for the segment stops. Is it a problem that I haven't recorded the act of actually saving in each segment?

Also, the game does use autosaves. Most importantly, there's an autosave for each finished level which I've used. This means that the first segment in every level doesn't yield a save penalty as far as I have understood. Other than this, there's only two other autosaves that I've used. My calculation says that the amount of seconds lost from segmentation is 31,5. I don't actually think this is too bad;  most of the segments are worth a 0,5 second penalty in my opinion. That's because I've optimized each part a lot. But who knows, maybe the verifiers' opinions differ.
The Dork Knight himself.
I was one of the verifiers for the rejected run, and I can tell you that watching 63 30-sec clips is really annoying. Since you haven't finished yet and already have 80 segments, I really hope that you picked the segment breaks carefully. Part of the reason I rejected Bacn's run was due to the actual segmentation losing time. The best example I can give is on the very first level (kejim_post): there was a segment break right after jumping the canyon, which forced Bacn to stop midflight, land, then save for the next segment. Just by doing that he lost about 3 seconds behind Dave's test run from 2006. Segmenting can be a good thing, but 80+ segments for this game is extreme overkill for how short it is. Are the tricks you use in the run really so hard that they require a segment every 20-30 seconds?
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2012-12-29 12:08:13 pm
I was also verifying and was having the same gripe with the last submission: too many segments without the super smoothness to justify it. If your run will have 80 segments it has to be close to perfect on every segment more or less... at least in a relative sense. No random running into walls or enemies when it doesn't look absolutely unavoidable. Otherwise it shouldn't be *impossible* to please the verifiers, especially since you seem to have the new trick implementing part covered.

Maybe could you prepare a zip or something out of the segments if you're not going to join them into one file? J is maybe exaggerating - the segments were a bit longer than that on average, but he has a point.
Edit history:
recon: 2012-12-29 12:52:05 pm
Quote from honorableJay:
I was one of the verifiers for the rejected run, and I can tell you that watching 63 30-sec clips is really annoying.

I can imagine that, that's why I'm probably going to encode one file per level for verification.

Quote from honorableJay:
Since you haven't finished yet and already have 80 segments, I really hope that you picked the segment breaks carefully. Part of the reason I rejected Bacn's run was due to the actual segmentation losing time. The best example I can give is on the very first level (kejim_post): there was a segment break right after jumping the canyon, which forced Bacn to stop midflight, land, then save for the next segment. Just by doing that he lost about 3 seconds behind Dave's test run from 2006. Segmenting can be a good thing, but 80+ segments for this game is extreme overkill for how short it is. Are the tricks you use in the run really so hard that they require a segment every 20-30 seconds?

Thanks for pointing that out. I'd say that, when not looking at save penalties, my segmentation breaks are placed so no time is lost at all, for example when I'm waiting for something. I believe this is true for nearly all of the segments. I can however think of one example where this is not true, but I definitely don't lose 3 seconds from it or even more than a second. All in all, I'd say that the only time lost from segmentation in my run would be from save penalties. There are even places where segmentation makes the run faster, for example when you save in a convo with a NPC and then load the saved file - the convo is fastforwarded or ended upon loading (ok, these only happen few places).

As for the reason I'm using so many segments, it's simple: I wanted to complete each level as fast as I could. Of course, in most levels, one can't complete the level with one segment and have as good a time as one would have gotten with segment breaks. I understand that high expectations follow this high number of segments, but I'm pretty sure my segments will stand the test. As in, I couldn't do most of them faster than I already have done now. And I have done a lot of attempts. For example, it took me 1-2 hours of playing/recording for 2-3 days to get the very first segment right. It was 14 seconds long. This was of course also one of the harder to master, but it's true that I used very long time recording many other segments as well. So I really have put effort into the segments.
In addition, my run is on hardest difficulty. This requires that I in some cases completely must avoid getting hit or losing significant hp, which again makes it harder to get a good run with fewer segments. If I used way fewer segments, I could probably be spending years on trying to achieve the perfection that I strived for with this run.

I guess my main point is this (ideally):
Split a level up into moderate portions --> perfect each portion --> completion time for level is faster than if it had been done in less segments (even when accounting for save penalties)
The parentheses are there because it isn't true in general (it depends on where you put segment breaks etc.), but I'm pretty sure it is for my run.

LotBlind: I believe I've pretty much perfected each segment, as I described in my response to honorableJay, so hopefully it isn't an issue.
As for the verification files, I'll probably make one file per level. This way it doesn't get too annoying. If my run gets accepted I'd like the "public" files to be complete (as in, the whole speedrun contained in one file).

Anyway, I'm going to upload the run to YouTube once I have finished editing and made sure that everything is OK. Then you guys can give your comments, and based on your responses I can choose to submit to SDA or not. There isn't anything bad about this approach, is there?
Edit history:
Angelmark: 2012-12-29 01:18:52 pm
The Anomaly
Can't wait to see your run, 45 minutes seems like a really good time for this game, especially playing on hard (is that Jedi Master?). Personally, I don't mind heavily segmented runs (see my condemned speedrun), as long as the gameplay is optimal and the segment breaks are made with reason. Editing the segments together into one video would be a plus, aswell.
Edit history:
Bacn: 2012-12-29 10:46:46 pm
If you can get under 45 minutes I will eat my hat. Getting under 55 would be challenging, but 45 would require you to be an incredibly good strafejumper with some nice tricks up your sleeve. All the best of luck to you.

On a side note, I'm practicing hard to get a new run of my own. But I'm trying to reach a point where I can single-segement each level before shooting for the record again.
Angelmark: Yep it's on Jedi Master and thanks for the support.
Bacn: Thanks and good luck to you with your run. It should be possible to do a segment per level without going too slow, but it must get hard when you have to do hard tricks in the middle of a long level.

Also, it has arrived.. a "beta" version of my speedrun if you will. Its main purpose is to allow you guys to give your opinions on whether or not I should submit (did I do too many segments, etc.) the run to SDA. It's also possible that I can improve different places in the run, if you point these out. Right now though, I am not in the mood for much redoing.

Some things to note:
- I added music from JK2 manually to the video. I think this adds to the entertainment value. Let me know if the music is too loud at places or just.. inappropriate. I know I enjoyed it, especially in Bespin Streets.
- Segment breaks are not clearly indicated. As in, no loading screens or saving screens during the film; there's only a loading screen when it's the beginning of a new level. You can however for the most time see when a new segment begins. If movement is happening, Kyle will skip a few centimeters forward, and there may be some inconsistencies in the game sound. It should be visible in level 4.
- I added a timer to the video (upper right corner). I made it stop at the end of each level and start at the beginning of each new. Let me know if the timing appears wrong according to SDA standard. According to this timer, my time for the run is 43:37,5 excluding save penalties. It would probably be good to have this time verified.

Yeah, that's it. I'll gladly receive any feedback/comments/thoughts. Bear in mind that the quality on YouTube isn't very satisfying, especially not at 30 fps. I could upload a much better 60 fps version but unfortunately it's 3,6 GB large so it would probably be a problem finding a good host.

Finally, here's the YT link:

Enjoy your hat, Bacn Wink
Edit history:
gammadragon: 2012-12-30 04:56:24 am
Might be magic...
Wow, that was... amazing. I feel like I just watched Quake Done Quickest - Jedi Edition Smiley

Edit: If you don't submit this run I will eat Bacn's shoes.
Edit history:
gammadragon: 2012-12-30 06:03:59 am
Might be magic...
A few questions for you recon:
* What FOV settings are you using?
* I thought that the special "use force power here" crosshair only appears on the two easier difficulties. How did you make them appear in Jedi Master difficulty? Instances at 12:22 , 12:34 , 27:41 , 37:43 , 44:28
* That jump at 23:40 on top of the Reborn was one in a million... how many attempts did you make to get that? I was actually trying the same thing myself but found it "unfeasible", haha
* At 26:20 you use some sort of Force Healing glitch? It looks like Kyle is having an epileptic fit Tongue
* Just after this at 26:30 is some sort of firing rate glitch which allows you to shoot faster than normal?
* At 26:56 you spin around really fast when landing... why did that happen?
Thanks for the compliment.
- In the first 6 levs or so, I use cg_fov 115 or something like that. It was more enjoyable to play with in 1st person mode. And while it makes things look faster, it isn't actually faster than if the setting had been to normal value.
- Hmm, I'm not sure. I may have fiddled with a crosshair setting. I don't remember it though. I actually thought it was a bug that the force crosshair didn't appear, so I tried to make it appear.
- That Reborn jump was actually not that hard after I'd train it for some time. It's just about timing.
- It's not a glitch I think, it's just using force healh and moving, which stops the force healing. Then you repeat. I found that it makes healing faster in some places, but I wouldn't call it a glitch. I use this in one of the cairn_ levels on an elevator up. It only works on 1st or is it 2nd rank.
- The firing rate thing is only visual/auditive. That is, you're not actually firing additional shots. You can see this if you look closely. It's just for fun, really. You can do it by jumping, shooting in the air and then spamming crouch.
- I do this because the roll ensures I take less fall damage. I changed the cl_yawspeed setting to a very high number to do the roll on a very narrow ground. So that I wouldn't fall into oblivion when doing the roll.
Definitely submit that, I know I would accept it (baring audio/visual issues) and that's probably one of the strongest statements you could get on a Jedi Outcast run Wink

There's a couple rather minor things I noticed, some small clips, some jumps in the early levels that could have been done half a second faster from slightly different angles, but nothing that would ever stand in the way of calling this an outstanding speedrun. You incorporated pretty much all (and more) shortcuts that I considered possible and also finally managed to figure out bespin_streets. I'll give a more in detail commentary once this is up for verification and I can actually look through segments thoroughly.

The segmentation didn't feel overdone. I could understand almost all the segment breaks intuitively, and those that seemed off at first were pretty much cleared up seconds after (the one on top of the stairs in level 4, for instance). It might seem a lot at first glance for a 43 minute run, but this game requires heavy segmentation to get a good run and everybody that has tried running this game will attest to that.

The final time is most certainly an overestimate. I am fairly certain that the skipable cutscenes are counted as loading times for the purpose of timing and so are not counted. That's because we meassured them to take a different amount on older systems while recording back when I was working on the first run of this game. They should run at the same speed on all modern systems, though, so I'm not sure if that ruling still holds true. I don't make decisions on timing, but I think for consistency with older runs they should be cut out.

For submission I'm not sure what the current guidelines are, but I personally would encode each segment individually as well as offer a recut version similar to the one you uploaded to youtube (although I would make sure that each segment break is visually identifieable by keeping in like half a second of menu screen. I feel it's "cheating" the viewer if you try to "hide" the evidence and will just lead to people asking pointless questions about the video jumping on segment cuts). Somebody actually involved in the inner workings of SDA should be able to answer these questions for sure, though.

I'm glad somebody finally got a run done that does this game justice, and on a difficulty I considered to be unreasonable for running to boot. Great job, recon.
Edit history:
ExplodingCabbage: 2012-12-30 07:44:06 am
ExplodingCabbage: 2012-12-30 07:28:13 am
ExplodingCabbage: 2012-12-30 07:10:06 am
Currently watching this; fantastic stuff so far. One query so far: in a couple of places, lines of dialogue seem to be skipped. e.g. when talking to C3PO at the academy, or when talking to Lando in the control room, only Kyle's lines play. I don't remember this featuring in LLCoolDave's run (though I haven't watched it in many years so maybe I misremember), and it's not obvious what you do to make it happen; how is this done? Is this just an effect of segment breaks?

Okay, just finished watching. Great run, entertaining from beginning to end. Always fast, always smooth, and all the trick jumps and daft boss kills were fantastic. (Literally laughed out loud at the first reborn kill.)
LLCoolDave: Thanks for the positive words. I really appreciate it, especially coming from the/an authority on JK2 speed running. A big shotout goes to you for making the previous speed run and also for finding some newer strategies. In particular, that skip in yavin_trials. I would never have found that myself. It's probably the most ingenious thing in the run. It was a shame you never got to finish the new run.

Also, as for the run's difficulty (Jedi Master), it actually proved beneficial in certain places, compared to Padawan skill. Best example is the skip in 4th level where I jump onto flying robot NPCs - I believe these only spawn on hardest difficulty. Without them, I would have to take the regular route and end in a conversation with that prisoner. It would probably be 30 seconds slower. There's one more example I can think of, and it's in level 17 (the one with the bloody alarm posts). There's one certain stormtrooper which I jump onto, and this gets me much faster going, and I'm pretty sure that this one only spawns on the harder difficulties. That said, though, there are also places where it would be faster to run on easiest difficulty. For instance in 5th level where killing the ATSTs is much slower.

ExplodingCabbage: The first example with C3PO, there's used the following trick: By saving during some convos, some (if not all) of the convo is skipped upon loading. In the second example with Lando, there's used another awesome trick found by honorableJay: by standing with your lightsaber in the wall, it skips the convo for some reason. And thanks for the compliment. I saw the speedrun of Dark Forces by you (and someone else?), and it was damn awesome, so a shoutout to you as well for that neat run.
The Dork Knight himself.
Ok, now THAT was worth the 81 segments Smiley Fucking brilliant in so many ways.

The only thing I can see as not-so-kosher is the higher FOV settings. I personally don't care about it, but when I asked Mike about it while he was still admin, his stance was the only console commands that you could use would be for compatibility reasons or for custom resolutions. It's a bit of a stupid rule considering every half-life and quake player (possibly Portal guys too) runs the game with direct weapon binds and high FOV settings, but since they get to record demos nobody seems to notice or care how the player recorded it. The final verdict I was given was, "If you can't change something in the game's built-in menu system, you can't use it in the console." You might wanna check with one of the current admins to see what they say. Having this run shot down due to a small technicality like that would really suck.

Btw, did you actually record this run at 1280x720 (or a similar 16:9 res) or something else? I know the menus get squished for widescreen res but normally the players/world look normal.
Thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you thought it wasn't too many segments. As for the fov setting, I hope this is not a deal breaker. It would be nice if a current authority could have a say on this matter.

I played the game in windowed mode with a resolution of 960 x 720, so the original fraps files have this resolution. In the youtube video I had just edited it to make it fill the whole screen. I think the result is pretty good. If/when I submit to this site I think the original resolution will be used (isn't changing the aspect ratio disallowed?)