Jackal NES low-% & any-% discussion

2010-08-09 04:58:00 pm

Haters gonna hate

I can see a single rocket working better in many parts of the game, but there's a few spots I'm genuinely curious how you'll get by. The section after the bridge in level 5 for one, without being able to kill the guns behind the bunkers from straight on I'm pretty sure either of the little shortcuts will be unusable to you, and just getting through alone would be a bear (unless you're not powering back up until after that section). Another one that leaps to mind is the conveyor flanked by turrets towards the end of 6, unless rank's low enough that you can just charge the center.

I must admit this approach just seems wrong to me, but I can see benefits to it. Even if you're going low powered through the end, though, I'd still think being fully powered at the start would be beneficial. It's possible to get 3 POWs in the first level with taking barely any time out (I'd be surprised if you lost a whole second), and even with max rank the first few levels don't throw that much at you so keeping lag in check isn't too bad. The 4 (or at least 2) way spread really does help clear out enemies at the start of boss fights so you can get into position right away.

I can see a single rocket working better in many parts of the game, but there's a few spots I'm genuinely curious how you'll get by.  The section after the bridge in level 5 for one, without being able to kill the guns behind the bunkers from straight on I'm pretty sure either of the little shortcuts will be unusable to you, and just getting through alone would be a bear (unless you're not powering back up until after that section).  Another one that leaps to mind is the conveyor flanked by turrets towards the end of 6, unless rank's low enough that you can just charge the center.

I must admit this approach just seems wrong to me, but I can see benefits to it.  Even if you're going low powered through the end, though, I'd still think being fully powered at the start would be beneficial.  It's possible to get 3 POWs in the first level with taking barely any time out (I'd be surprised if you lost a whole second), and even with max rank the first few levels don't throw that much at you so keeping lag in check isn't too bad.  The 4 (or at least 2) way spread really does help clear out enemies at the start of boss fights so you can get into position right away.

Vugmer

2010-08-09 05:58:34 pm

Cigar Man

Quote from Breakdown:

I can see a single rocket working better in many parts of the game, but there's a few spots I'm genuinely curious how you'll get by. The section after the bridge in level 5 for one, without being able to kill the guns behind the bunkers from straight on I'm pretty sure either of the little shortcuts will be unusable to you, and just getting through alone would be a bear (unless you're not powering back up until after that section). Another one that leaps to mind is the conveyor flanked by turrets towards the end of 6, unless rank's low enough that you can just charge the center.

I'm going to use death abuse during the stage-four boss fight, and I won't re-obtain the single rocket until after that part in stage five that you mentioned. For the part in stage six, I can just charge up the center with the single rocket without getting hit. From what I can tell, having the single rocket causes the same enemy spawns as having the grenades.

Quote from Breakdown:

I must admit this approach just seems wrong to me, but I can see benefits to it. Even if you're going low powered through the end, though, I'd still think being fully powered at the start would be beneficial. It's possible to get 3 POWs in the first level with taking barely any time out (I'd be surprised if you lost a whole second), and even with max rank the first few levels don't throw that much at you so keeping lag in check isn't too bad. The 4 (or at least 2) way spread really does help clear out enemies at the start of boss fights so you can get into position right away.

I've been doing some more testing. I think I will get the four-way rocket in stage one; doing so causes the final tank to appear about four seconds earlier during the boss fight. And the four-way rocket will save about a second on the second boss because I can kill both turrets at once. The four-way rocket still seems to cause a lot of lag to me, though. But I can probably find optimal times to use it to minimize lag.

[quote="Breakdown"]
I can see a single rocket working better in many parts of the game, but there's a few spots I'm genuinely curious how you'll get by.  The section after the bridge in level 5 for one, without being able to kill the guns behind the bunkers from straight on I'm pretty sure either of the little shortcuts will be unusable to you, and just getting through alone would be a bear (unless you're not powering back up until after that section).  Another one that leaps to mind is the conveyor flanked by turrets towards the end of 6, unless rank's low enough that you can just charge the center.
[/quote]

I'm going to use death abuse during the stage-four boss fight, and I won't re-obtain the single rocket until after that part in stage five that you mentioned.  For the part in stage six, I can just charge up the center with the single rocket without getting hit.  From what I can tell, having the single rocket causes the same enemy spawns as having the grenades.

[quote="Breakdown"]
I must admit this approach just seems wrong to me, but I can see benefits to it.  Even if you're going low powered through the end, though, I'd still think being fully powered at the start would be beneficial.  It's possible to get 3 POWs in the first level with taking barely any time out (I'd be surprised if you lost a whole second), and even with max rank the first few levels don't throw that much at you so keeping lag in check isn't too bad.  The 4 (or at least 2) way spread really does help clear out enemies at the start of boss fights so you can get into position right away.
[/quote]

I've been doing some more testing.  I think I will get the four-way rocket in stage one; doing so causes the final tank to appear about four seconds earlier during the boss fight.  And the four-way rocket will save about a second on the second boss because I can kill both turrets at once.  The four-way rocket still seems to cause a lot of lag to me, though.  But I can probably find optimal times to use it to minimize lag.

Vugmer

2010-08-10 10:56:50 pm

Cigar Man

I put my low% run on YouTube:

I'll probably receive my capture card sometime this week, and I plan to stream any% attempts, assuming I can figure out how to set up the stream.

MASTER-88

2010-08-11 06:41:44 am

Master-88

Quote from Vugmer:

I put my low% run on YouTube:

I'll probably receive my capture card sometime this week, and I plan to stream any% attempts, assuming I can figure out how to set up the stream.

I watched it awesome run. I still wonder where you beat my time so much. I´ll timed your strategy later i not have time right now.

Level 1. Why you kill so many turrets used grenades? BSulpher already told me its better way avoid lags used bullets with most enemies. Also you enteri with boss more right than me. I think enter as left as possible is some frames faster.

Level 2. IMO i beat this level cleaner. But maybe your strategys controlls lags was better, you still might save time kill enemies used bullets than grenades. I have to timed it later
Level 3. Route seems different, maybe less lags? Boss was identical as me.

Level 4. Good tip avoid kill missile launcher
Level 5. Route seems same as me
Level 6. Its look you got most improvements here. Awesome strategy kill helicopeter your behind. Starting boss fight seems good idea kill tank first and helicopter later this look its avoid some huge lags.

Very last boss look very ok. Its look you missing some grenades, but thats very hard to avoid.

[quote="Vugmer"]
I put my low% run on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPqK67ZiEPc

I'll probably receive my capture card sometime this week, and I plan to stream any% attempts, assuming I can figure out how to set up the stream.
[/quote]

I watched it awesome run. I still wonder where you beat my time so much. I´ll timed your strategy later i not have time right now.

Level 1. Why you kill so many turrets used grenades? BSulpher already told me its better way avoid lags used bullets with most enemies. Also you enteri with boss more right than me. I think enter as left as possible is some frames faster.

Level 2. IMO i beat this level cleaner. But maybe your strategys controlls lags was better, you still might save time kill enemies used bullets than grenades. I have to timed it later
Level 3. Route seems different, maybe less lags? Boss was identical as me.

Level 4. Good tip avoid kill missile launcher
Level 5. Route seems same as me
Level 6. Its look you got most improvements here. Awesome strategy kill helicopeter your behind. Starting boss fight seems good idea kill tank first and helicopter later this look its avoid some huge lags.

Very last boss look very ok. Its look you missing some grenades, but thats very hard to avoid.

Vugmer

2010-08-11 06:56:26 pm

Cigar Man

Quote from MASTER-88:

I watched it awesome run. I still wonder where you beat my time so much. I´ll timed your strategy later i not have time right now.

All of the time I gained on your run was on stages five and six. If you watch our runs side by side, we are pretty much dead even at the beginning of stage five.

MASTER-88

2010-08-12 07:24:12 am

Master-88

Quote from Vugmer:

Quote from MASTER-88:

I watched it awesome run. I still wonder where you beat my time so much. I´ll timed your strategy later i not have time right now.

All of the time I gained on your run was on stages five and six. If you watch our runs side by side, we are pretty much dead even at the beginning of stage five.

Annoying i not have mediaplayer where i can watch both runs side to side. But yes it look mostly you did level 6 much better. My level 5 includes ugly death cost me 3-4 seconds. 20 seconds still sounds much. Your runs just look only 10 seconds faster. Wink

But maybe lags what i did level 6 first boss are quite huge. You did it very well and very less lags. These lags slow really much.

Already my first submission 9:25 (2-death run) Was very cool looking run. But my lags controlls was simply bad. BrianS told me how avoid lags better and later i fix it includes some better boss startegys. Then i easily redo my run several seconds.

But seriously this your run not seems impossible hard to beat. So i maybe will back it later, but not very soon. I just haved other games work on now. But i planning back attempt this one later in this year. Wink

[quote="Vugmer"]
[quote="MASTER-88"]
I watched it awesome run. I still wonder where you beat my time so much. I´ll timed your strategy later i not have time right now.
[/quote]

All of the time I gained on your run was on stages five and six.  If you watch our runs side by side, we are pretty much dead even at the beginning of stage five.
[/quote]

Annoying i not have mediaplayer where i can watch both runs side to side. But yes it look mostly you did level 6 much better. My level 5 includes ugly death cost me 3-4 seconds. 20 seconds still sounds much. Your runs just look only 10 seconds faster. ;) But maybe lags what i did level 6 first boss are quite huge. You did it very well and very less lags. These lags slow really much.

Already my first submission 9:25 (2-death run) Was very cool looking run. But my lags controlls was simply bad. BrianS told me how avoid lags better and later i fix it includes some better boss startegys. Then i easily redo my run several seconds.

But seriously this your run not seems impossible hard to beat. So i maybe will back it later, but not very soon. I just haved other games work on now. But i planning back attempt this one later in this year. ;)

Vugmer

2010-08-20 11:27:55 pm

Cigar Man

I just completed an any% run in 8:20. I'm going to submit this one.

SnUfFiT86

2010-08-20 11:33:15 pm

I love you whores!

Congratulations Man!!! I'm happy 2 say I saw u do it live.

MASTER-88

2010-08-21 01:54:59 am

Master-88

Quote from Vugmer:

I just completed an any% run in 8:20. I'm going to submit this one.

Damn this is fucking good news. I can´t wait see this one.:)

MASTER-88

2010-09-07 02:07:38 pm

Master-88

I am practice that game two last days.

I´ll try find ways beat VGMR run. Seriously his low-% run was nearly perfect i maybe never beat it. But i got fun and try practice and test some different strategys. I timed some things. I was little amount faster levels 2 & 3. VGMR seems two seconds faster level 1 and par as fast as level 4. Level 5 seems nearly as fast as expect my death which cost me 3-4 seconds and i lost maybe one extra seconds with lags before boss. Level 6 seems near as fast expect 2nd spread cannon and helicopter. Thats strategy kill helicopter your behind seems nice idea and not was even difficult.

All 10-12 seconds time lost happen for me Fortress fight and Huge tank. Thats just make my run whole 20 seconds slower. VGMR did Fortress fight so well that was nearly totally lag less fight. Is it just pure luck how many tanks come your behind or can you controlls it something? Thats always cost tons time if i have to kill tanks here. VGMR did awesome huge tank fight. First i think my own fight was faster but after watching run side to side thats seems VGMR did it nearly 4-5 seconds faster than me. I still think this is nearly only way try redo that run make Huge tank more luckier.

That pretty damn incredible how VGMR did his any-% 8:20. Can you show this one too? I think im not going try any-% run. I am just more interested try redo your low-% run but maybe this any-% haved some cool stuffs i never are knew.

I am practice that game two last days.

I´ll try find ways beat VGMR run. Seriously his low-% run was nearly perfect i maybe never beat it. But i got fun and try practice and test some different strategys. I timed some things. I was little amount faster levels 2 & 3. VGMR seems two seconds faster level 1 and par as fast as level 4. Level 5 seems nearly as fast as expect my death which cost me 3-4 seconds and i lost maybe one extra seconds with lags before boss. Level 6 seems near as fast expect 2nd spread cannon and helicopter. Thats strategy kill helicopter your behind seems nice idea and not was even difficult.

All 10-12 seconds time lost happen for me Fortress fight and Huge tank. Thats just make my run whole 20 seconds slower. VGMR did Fortress fight so well that was nearly totally lag less fight. Is it just pure luck how many tanks come your behind or can you controlls it something?  Thats always cost tons time if i have to kill tanks here. VGMR did awesome  huge tank fight. First i think my own fight was faster but after watching run side to side thats seems VGMR did it nearly 4-5 seconds faster than me. I still think this is nearly only way try redo that run make Huge tank more luckier.

That pretty damn incredible how VGMR did his any-% 8:20. Can you show this one too? I think im not going try any-% run. I am just more interested try redo your low-% run but maybe this any-% haved some cool stuffs i never are knew.

Vugmer

2010-09-07 06:13:36 pm

Cigar Man

Quote from MASTER-88:

Is it just pure luck how many tanks come your behind or can you controlls it something?

It's just luck as far as I know.

Quote from MASTER-88:

That pretty damn incredible how VGMR did his any-% 8:20. Can you show this one too? I think im not going try any-% run. I am just more interested try redo your low-% run but maybe this any-% haved some cool stuffs i never are knew.

I probably won't post my any% run on YouTube. My any% run is similar to my low% run. The main difference is that the stage-two boss fight and the stage-six boss fight are faster in the any% run because I have the rockets.

Heidrage

2011-02-26 10:53:09 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Anyone care if I try my hand at this game?

Vugmer

2011-02-26 10:57:52 pm

Cigar Man

Quote from Heidman:

Anyone care if I try my hand at this game?

SDA is a free country.

DK28

2011-02-26 11:28:19 pm

General Kong - Bullets and Bananas

Quote from Vugmer:

Quote from Heidman:

Anyone care if I try my hand at this game?

SDA is a free country.

ORLY?! I thought this was a communist dictatorship. And I liked it that way. thumbsup

I pledged my undying loyalty to the SDA clan.

MASTER-88

2011-02-27 12:52:19 pm

Master-88

Quote from Heidman:

Anyone care if I try my hand at this game?

Awesome idea. Vgmr runs is really hard to beat especially his any-% run. Its best of really lucky with final boss.

Vugmer

2011-02-27 06:13:22 pm

Cigar Man

Quote from DK28:

Quote from Vugmer:

Quote from Heidman:

Anyone care if I try my hand at this game?

SDA is a free country.

ORLY?! I thought this was a communist dictatorship. And I liked it that way. thumbsup

I pledged my undying loyalty to the SDA clan.

Well, jewyama is a tyrant, so that makes sense.

Heidrage

2011-11-05 05:19:55 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Can some one confirm the pow counts per level? Here is what I got.

Stage 1: 14
Stage 2: 12
Stage 3: 16
Stage 4: 12
Stage 5: 20
Stage 6: 13

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2014-06-12 10:08:16 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-12 10:07:16 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-12 10:03:59 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-12 10:02:35 am

2014-06-12 10:02:04 am

Master-88

New PB
8:45

I am really proud with this run expect Huge tank and some unwanted lags (especially end of the level 6). Even Huge tank was pretty good (in 30 seconds) but very possible take 5 or more seconds off here
This not was easy make this run. I spend 3 days attempts and 5-6 hours recorded. My fortress fight was simply awesome and luckiest ever my life

I got several runs beat and much resets run: I count times order
Run 1 9:43 (first run since 2009) 2nd completion and not reset run
Run 2 9:16
Run 3 9:20
Run 4 9:16
Run 5 9:07
Run 6 9:02
Run 7 8:59
Run 8 9:02
Run 9 9:21 (no reset run i was tired)
Run 10: 9:02
Run 11: 9:05
Run 12 8:45

This tell a lot how damn hard its go for under 9 minutes.

My old SDA run was 8:54 (2nd best time ever). So i beat this 5 year old run by 9 seconds but this time i used some power ups. Mostly power ups save time level 2 boss and fortress fight.

PJ

2014-06-12 11:12:13 am

Is PJ

Nice work, Master-88! Congrats!

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2014-06-13 10:20:44 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-13 10:20:16 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-13 10:19:30 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-13 10:18:28 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-13 10:17:30 am

MASTER-88: 2014-06-13 10:17:09 am

2014-06-13 10:16:28 am

Master-88

Quote from PJ:

Nice work, Master-88! Congrats!

Thanks PJ.

This is third game which beat my old runs (my progress is beat my old nes runs times). Metal gear, Shadow of the ninja and Jackal time is beated. I think next progress is Contra sub 11 or low 11 minutes. I also bought Super C. I think its might fun make some time NTSC version too. My PAL run is still up in SDA.

I have to say congrats you Bionic commando runs too. I´ll watch you run soon as i can. I actually watch your live 100% attempts runs couple days ago. Damn albatross kill you run. But better luck next time. thumbsup

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2014-07-24 02:59:01 pm

MASTER-88: 2014-07-24 02:57:21 pm

MASTER-88: 2014-07-24 02:57:02 pm

MASTER-88: 2014-07-24 02:54:36 pm

MASTER-88: 2014-07-24 02:53:41 pm

2014-07-24 02:52:37 pm

Master-88

Is anyone interested see 2.player runs with this game? Mostly this category is harder. We are with my brother make some drunk run for fun. Never timed better than 11 minutes before.

But here we make one "more serious" attempt. Run went surprisely fast compared how much mistakes we both did here. This are we first real 2. player run.
9:20

Its we first "somewhat serious run" And yeah its still totally suck. But we got some nice plans working here.
Level 1 & 2 went somewhat avarage, but still unwanted lags. Its seems tanks appeared faster when you got full power ups. But its not good idea keep it because lags slow you
Level 3 was totally crap. We both throws grenades and caused huge amount lags. We both accidentally die here. Also boss could be one round faster.
Level 4 was okay. Helicopter could be faster, but its went in 1 round.
Level 5 This level especially boss fight went really suck. I think this level need more plan we both
Level 6 1.Player is definitely better strategy pass this level. You can still use AB and wakeup you friend against boss fights. Here is much lags with boss fights, but its seems you can still save a lot time here. We got much unwanted lags with fortress and brother got die too early against huge tank.

I think we next goal is go for sub 9 minutes and i think its pretty easy task. Let see can we somedays make some SDA worth run, but yeah this run have some potential. But at this point sub 9 minutes seems very easy and my own PB with 1 player (8:45) are very beatable.

2 player is harder category too. We need more plans with lags and etc.... We can make boss fights faster throug.

Is anyone interested see 2.player runs with this game? Mostly this category is harder. We are with my brother make some drunk run for fun. Never timed better than 11 minutes before.

But here we make one "more serious" attempt. Run went surprisely fast compared how much mistakes we both did here. This are we first real 2. player run.
9:20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab9Xx4F0QSQ

Its we first "somewhat serious run" And yeah its still totally suck. But we got some nice plans working here.
Level 1 & 2 went somewhat avarage, but still unwanted lags. Its seems tanks appeared faster when you got full power ups. But its not good idea keep it because lags slow you
Level 3 was totally crap. We both throws grenades and caused huge amount lags. We both accidentally die here. Also boss could be one round faster.
Level 4 was okay. Helicopter could be faster, but its went in 1 round.
Level 5 This level especially boss fight went really suck. I think this level need more plan we both
Level 6 1.Player is definitely better strategy pass this level. You can still use AB and wakeup you friend against boss fights. Here is much lags with boss fights, but its seems you can still save a lot time here. We got much unwanted lags with fortress and brother got die too early against huge tank.

I think we next goal is go for sub 9 minutes and i think its pretty easy task. Let see can we somedays make some SDA worth run, but yeah this run have some potential. But at this point sub 9 minutes seems very easy and my own PB with 1 player (8:45) are very beatable.

2 player is harder category too. We need more plans with lags and etc.... We can make boss fights faster throug.

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2014-07-25 11:02:18 am

MASTER-88: 2014-07-25 11:01:15 am

MASTER-88: 2014-07-25 10:59:08 am

MASTER-88: 2014-07-25 10:57:38 am

2014-07-25 10:56:52 am

Master-88

2. player run with my brother' https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/profile/Emperor91.html.
Huge improvement

8:46

-Much better than previous run
-1-seconds slower than my one player run
-Many rooms improvement here and there.
-Not much effort yet. Its just take we 45 minutes reseting beat this.
-There is much better lag controll than last time. Less ugly mistakes.
-This run is at least decent one.

We next goal is sub 8:30. Then this run might look very good i think. We will need some better plan and etc... I think taking rocket level 2 not save that time with 2 player game. Its just only make possible make less lags. Taking more rocket not seems good outside TAS runs. Too much lags happen. Lag controll is main key here. Taking full power ups save time level 1 fight. We plan is here pretty good.

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2014-07-25 05:08:17 pm

2014-07-25 05:07:16 pm

Master-88

8:38 (2. players)

Pretty good one. Need still much more polish.

This took some serious time beat 8:46. I know there is still 20 seconds improvement. We think final goal might be 8:15.

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2014-07-25 08:37:19 pm

2014-07-25 08:35:03 pm

Master-88

Quote from MASTER-88:

8:38 (2. players)

Pretty good one. Need still much more polish.

This took some serious time beat 8:46. I know there is still 20 seconds improvement. We think final goal might be 8:15.

This run will be requires all your friendly with your guys.

MASTER-88

Edit history:

MASTER-88: 2015-05-27 05:36:39 am

MASTER-88: 2015-05-27 05:35:49 am

MASTER-88: 2015-05-27 05:32:00 am

2015-05-27 05:30:14 am

Master-88

Oh yeah. Couple days and 10-11 hours trashed recorded and eight sub 9 minutes runs later i got beat my low-% record. I lost around 14-15 seconds SDA run. I probably have most horrible fortress fight luck ever. So i´ll keep try redo that. I have my 2nd best sub time after level 5. My lag luck seems very good here. Tank fight seems decent one.

New low-% PB beat my 6 years old run.
8:49 using my stopwatch (its might be 8:50 SDA timer not sure) stop watch show 8:49:50.

This not beat my rocket run. But its only 4 seconds slower than my PB any-% category.

Good time mostly requires really good last fights. I think in theory i might beat WR run. Here alone i lost 10 seconds with fortress only, and some miss throw with tank.

Next goal is sub 8:45 using grenades hopefully less deaths. I might back rocket run later. Its much more harder category consistent.