How many attempts of a run do you make until you're satisfied?

2009-11-28 06:26:51 pm

pull pull chain

I just finished my first speed run for SDA. It is of the game "D" for the Sega Saturn. I estimate that I attempted this run about 10-20 times until I was satisfied with the outcome. It's an easy game, so I strove for perfection.

Anyway, I have recently viewed Daniel Hart's run of Majora's Mask and Mychal Jefferson's run of Yoshi's Island. Both of these are roughly 2-hour single-segment runs. I can only imagine how many failed attempts they made to get a run of this caliber. I noticed on this forum that someone is running a Mario Party game and is already up to 140 or so attempts.

How many attempts of a run did you make until you were satisfied?

Thread title:

ridd3r.

Edit history:

ridd3r.: 2009-11-28 06:46:15 pm

2009-11-28 06:40:29 pm

we have lift off

I'd suggest uploading it to youtube and seeing what people think. Try and compare it with other runs and work out how much time you think you lost due to mistakes and see if you are happy with that. Overall, it's just until you don't think you can do any better, it doesn't matter how many attempts.

However, I would say that 10-20 sounds like it's not nearly enough. Of course you could have just done a really good run or the game is just that easy. 10-20 attempts for any game though doesn't sound like it could be an optimal run so upload it to youtube and post a link.

Edit: After looking on youtube is it right that this game is basically just memorisation? Most of the animations are set so you just have to remember what you're doing? If that is the case then 10-20 attempts may be OK.

ZenicReverie

2009-11-28 08:07:56 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Depends on the game. I make hundreds of attempts at Vandal Hearts for each segment. I think I had roughly 100 or so attempts at Jak and Daxter before getting a good no death run.

neskamikaze

2009-11-28 08:16:01 pm

Quote from JJBunks:

..I noticed on this forum that someone is running a Mario Party game and is already up to 140 or so attempts.

Hey that's me Tongue

It really depends on the game. That 140 attempts is only on that particular segment. The first segment took 249 while the second only took 50. Don't go for a set number of attempts either, just keep going until you think you have it good enough.

Master ZED

Edit history:

Master ZED: 2009-11-28 09:00:06 pm

2009-11-28 08:47:20 pm

I've gone through three controllers and dozens of attempts at Mega Man 8 so far, and not one seems to beat the current run no matter how much I've optimized it. Even if one had, though, I'm not sure if I would have taken it before.

What I did with MM9, and what I'll likely do here, is keep going until I simply say enough's enough, or rather, when I don't see any viable room for self-improvement as things currently stand.

Manocheese

2009-11-28 10:59:53 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from neskamikaze:

Don't go for a set number of attempts either, just keep going until you think you have it good enough.

This. Once you have an excellent run/segment, the number of attempts it took is the number you're looking for (and if you've already done the run/segment, you don't need that number; hence why I don't bother to count my attempts :P).

RaneofSOTN

2009-11-29 12:07:30 am

I want off the ride....

Well for me and SD3 my rule of thumb is... "Three more ball park failures before moving on."

Meaning say if i got a time of 2:40 on a segment... I try to break it three more times... and i dont take a failure as an attempt. So if i get something like 3:02; i dont count it. but if i get 2:45, 2:44; 2:43, I accept it and move on. Obviously I did better that time. Unless of course there is a blatant mistake I could easily knock out without having to worry about luck...

neskamikaze

2009-11-29 12:19:15 am

Go back and watch what you think is your best attempt, and search for what looks improvable. Calculate the time you could possibly save and what you think you could feasibly achieve and go from there.

And at Manocheese, I just count my attempts as it seems to make an interesting piece of trivia. That, and I do only a certain amount of attempts in each sitting so I don't go insane Wink

MASTER-88

2009-11-29 05:39:40 am

Master-88

I not care how much attempts my run got beat 1-1000. Depend just how well run is done.

I remember when i play Probo 2 in last year. Sometimes spending good 4-5 hours without any luck beat game. Sometimes i need only couple attempt to beat run.

As well depend how long and hard game is. I think even 1 completion attempt and 200 failed attempts seems good if your run is well done.

I am spending a lot hours and days my Bionic commando 100% run i am maded only 4-5 completions and at least 500 failed run. I think i would submit it, but risk take reject is always more big than run which not includes any real mistakes so i´ll keep it progress yet and if i can,t beat it in this year i would try submit it.

JJBunks

2009-11-29 12:55:19 pm

pull pull chain

Quote from ridd3r.:

After looking on youtube is it right that this game is basically just memorisation? Most of the animations are set so you just have to remember what you're doing? If that is the case then 10-20 attempts may be OK.

Yes, this game is heavy on memorization. Most of the game is spent waiting for the pre-rendered movies to finish playing, at which point you make the next controller input. The game is slow and easy and that's why I started a topic in the Older Consoles board asking if a run for this game would be accepted.

Beenman500

2009-11-29 01:52:24 pm

Joke of all trades

i think rather than measuring in attemps, you should mesure in succesful attempt, that shows that your trying to beat a time and become better and better, rather than JUST being able to complete it.

for my baldur's gate SS, i did at least 15 - 20 fully completed runs( each i'd estimate to have around 60-80 attemps on average + time practicing the tricky manuvers) and (obviosuly) picked the fastest one.

a speedrun should be the best of the best so naturally the more runs you have to choose from (completed runs) the better(faster) the run is gonna be. for example i had a run with better play quality but i was unlucky and it turned out about 30 seconds slower, so even good play quality can't always make up for a lucky break you got one time.

Wak

(user is banned)

2009-11-29 02:22:11 pm

I'm personally never satisfied enough when playing aLTTP.

For the first segment with shitload of randomness in my actual run, I managed to get 5:59. But I wanted to beat this segmented run and re-did 5:52.

I have another run that I hope to finish soon from the same game, and I though for a while to just keep my 5:52... but because there was a 1 second worth of improvement in it, I redid and finally got a 5:51! But I doupt so many people would have redone it like me, because of so few improvement in a so wide game =|.

Kibbo

2009-11-29 03:24:40 pm

TIOLET!

Usually 2000-3000 attempts per segment. Sometimes I get lucky and nail a segment in only a few hundred attempts.

ridd3r.

2009-11-29 04:25:22 pm

we have lift off

Most I'v heard is 10,000 by dex on a segment that required a stupid amount of luck. Typically attempts in the thousands are because loads of luck is required, though I think 1000 or so is feasible for a really hard run.

Lag.Com

2009-11-29 05:36:12 pm

sda loyalist

Depends too much on genre. Arcomage took hundreds of attempts, but it's all luck and also very short.

Majesty on the other hand is... almost all luck, and not short. Damn. I've spent under a hundred attempts on each level so far, I think.

UltimateDarius

2009-11-29 05:51:04 pm

Back in the game!

I would say however many it takes to satisfy you. If you also satisfy the verifiers, congrats. If not, you didn't make enough attempts! =P

djcj

2009-11-30 09:32:56 am

I don't need that many attempts on the segments of my Medal of Honor run that I'm currently working at. But that's probably because I've been running most levels just for fun before I had my capture card. But it also depends on the level. On some levels I need several hundred attempts (though most of them end after a few seconds, so it's actually not that much at all), and on others maybe less than 100.

Frezy_man

2009-11-30 11:52:43 am

bläää

It totally depends. One run could be finished in a couple of attempts while drinkjing beers. Another one took Close to three thousand attempts.
There is games where you do not have to try that hard to get good looking results. But some game is really tricky. It also depends on how good you want the run to looks like. Eventually there is already a record that is just soo hard to beat that no matter how hard you try you might never succeed to beat the record.
The last two years I have counted my serious speedrun attempts on a paper. My Contra Any % speedrun took me around 1150 counted attempts over a two year period.

For Super C I knew the game engine very well because it was after my Contra speedrun. I practiced like crazy on an emulator. When I was start recording I could not tell if I should get the run I was looking for in the first attempt or after 1000. I was satisfied after attempt number 523. But then I was pretty dumb to screw up 434 attempts on the first level before figuring out how to get trough that level perfectly the with a new strategy.
I did got this run in two weeks actually.

It totally depends. One run could be finished in a couple of attempts while drinkjing beers. Another one took Close to three thousand attempts.
There is games where you do not have to try that hard to get good looking results. But some game is really tricky. It also depends on how good you want the run to looks like. Eventually there is already a record that is just soo hard to beat that no matter how hard you try you might never succeed to beat the record.
The last two years I have counted my serious speedrun attempts on a paper. My Contra Any % speedrun took me around 1150 counted attempts over a two year period.

For Super C I knew the game engine very well because it was after my Contra speedrun. I practiced like crazy on an emulator. When I was start recording I could not tell if I should get the run I was looking for in the first attempt or after 1000. I was satisfied after attempt number 523. But then I was pretty dumb to screw up 434 attempts on the first level before figuring out how to get trough that level perfectly the with a new strategy.
I did got this run in two weeks actually.

trihex

2009-12-01 01:06:12 am

Yoshi's eggs are at my mercy!

Quote from JJBunks:

Anyway, I have recently viewed Daniel Hart's run of Majora's Mask and Mychal Jefferson's run of Yoshi's Island. Both of these are roughly 2-hour single-segment runs. I can only imagine how many failed attempts they made to get a run of this caliber.

I'm a little bit late for my cue but I'm finally here!

Ugh, please, don't view the soon-to-be-approaching-its-5th-anniversary-disaster. It's not even relevant to my current standards of speedrunning or skill at Yoshi's Island. If you found that impressive, please do check out my current works-in-progress available to view.

But to answer your topic question; for SS attempts (this is probably wrong, as I haven't seriously tackled anything SS-like in years) I strive for perfection (don't look at any of my current speedruns for examples of this :P). First, for about 1-3 weeks, I practice the full playthrough continuously. As in, even if I make a major mistake (like dying or something), continue to finish the game to form a routine. The idea is to play so often that once you successfully get far into your attempt while recording, you won't freak out, become distracted with the added thoughts of trying to avoid screwing up, and finish a successful attempt. Once I'm out of the "forming routine" phase; crack down on the recording phase, which is self-explanatory.

Eventually I'll have a finished attempt that's recorded and possibly celebrate prematurely on my thread ... but I like to wait 2-3 days, possibly a week, and rewatch the speedrun and really go over whether I can accept it as my own once the daze of a finished speedrun is no longer giving me a high. I did this and rejected my 2007 concept speedrun of Jet Set Radio Future. But if the recorded footage passes my review days after the actual attempt, I'm happy.

I'm sorry that I still don't have a definite amount of attempts I do. It's been too long since I've actually done a non-segmented speedrun. I'll get back to you on that once I improve the Yoshi's Island SS in 2010. Cheesy

[quote="JJBunks"]Anyway, I have recently viewed Daniel Hart's run of Majora's Mask and Mychal Jefferson's run of Yoshi's Island. Both of these are roughly 2-hour single-segment runs. I can only imagine how many failed attempts they made to get a run of this caliber.[/quote]

I'm a little bit late for my cue but I'm finally here!

Ugh, please, don't view the soon-to-be-approaching-its-5th-anniversary-disaster. It's not even relevant to my current standards of speedrunning or skill at Yoshi's Island. If you found that impressive, please do check out my current [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,7949.msg221710.html#msg221710]works-in-progress[/url] available to view.

But to answer your topic question; for SS attempts (this is probably wrong, as I haven't seriously tackled anything SS-like in years) I strive for perfection (don't look at any of my current speedruns for examples of this :P). First, for about 1-3 weeks, I practice the full playthrough continuously. As in, even if I make a major mistake (like dying or something), continue to finish the game to form a routine. The idea is to play so often that once you successfully get far into your attempt while recording, you won't freak out, become distracted with the added thoughts of trying to avoid screwing up, and finish a successful attempt. Once I'm out of the "forming routine" phase; crack down on the recording phase, which is self-explanatory.

[url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,6004.msg160682.html#msg160682]Eventually I'll have a finished attempt that's recorded and possibly celebrate prematurely on my thread[/url] ... but I like to wait 2-3 days, possibly a week, and rewatch the speedrun and really go over whether I can accept it as my own once the daze of a finished speedrun is no longer giving me a high. I did this and [url=http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,6004.msg161132.html#msg161132]rejected my 2007 concept speedrun of Jet Set Radio Future[/url]. But if the recorded footage passes my review days after the actual attempt, I'm happy.

I'm sorry that I still don't have a definite amount of attempts I do. It's been too long since I've actually done a non-segmented speedrun. I'll get back to you on that once I improve the Yoshi's Island SS in 2010. :D

Emperor91

2009-12-01 06:07:42 am

Speedrunner and highscore player

I´ll try until run is good looking and there´s no major mistakes, sometimes it might take weeks and sometimes only few tries. Segmented runs take usually much more tries than single segments.

Shuda51

Edit history:

Shuda51: 2009-12-02 04:40:00 pm

2009-12-01 04:12:29 pm

The Running Failure

With the runs i have tried so far, i try to limit myself to getting 3 runs around the same time. If one of these runs is substantially better, then I'll do the three run thing again, aiming for the new time. This continues until i don't think i can get any faster with my route or execution level.

Reason i do only 3 is that i set overly high bars of standards for myself. IE in Strider, it's a mandatory restart if i don't make it to certain sections with one or two health left for the death warp. It's also a restart if i don't get the "triangle jump" maneuver working....Which also happens to be the HARDEST part of the run.

EDIT: I NEED TO LEARN TO READ THE TITLE.

Answer is said by Darius.

andrewg

2009-12-01 08:49:24 pm

Hi! I'm andrewg!

As many as it takes.

dex

2009-12-02 10:29:36 am

Invisible avatar

Depends on the segment, the game and the mood. Rarely less than 100 (but it happens), typically hundreds, often thousands, almost 10000 tries on the segment ridd3r mentioned (and it ain't perfect yet! Have no desire to try it further, though). Worth mentioning: I probably put in even more tries into e4m8 in Quake since I typically restarted half a second in (good bunnyhop necessary at the start).

And the most I've heard is over a hundred thousand on e1m3_100 by Peter Horvath. Daamn.

ad3n

2009-12-02 08:12:25 pm

rawr

Quote from andrewg:

As many as it takes.

Absolutely. I've been working on SWAT 4 for 2 years no (off and on) and I've redone levels that at the time seemed good. This particular game is mostly luck orientated with randomized AI and a lot of lucky gunfire, so I screwed up countless times. The final level, I've easily surpassed 2000 attempts if not more. I've only got a single recorded 100% run of it, but a 5 second screw up at the end makes me want to redo it, despite how long it took me to get that single video. One day I'll be happy enough to submit.... One day...

kareshi

2009-12-02 10:26:16 pm

My Jaws run probably hit the 2000's counting all the self-obsoletions.
Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts took a whole month of however many attempts that is, Ghosts 'N Goblins has probably hit the 1000's if you count the old one as well as my recent attempts at obsoletion. I spent all October trying to beat GnG but couldn't. I'm taking a break until after Magfest and then I'll get back to it.