Hagane (SNES)

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2012-08-21 04:02:01 pm

2012-08-21 04:01:35 pm

All the things

Yeah, there's definitely something up with lag or otherwise. GTimeKiller's TAS is a bit more optimized than Dark Fulgore's, but still has several poor fights. There are only 3 parts that are not possible consistently in real-time (Elevator shaft skip in 3-2, rock skip in 4-2, lava pillars + earlier skip in 4-3), and frankly getting 1-cycle En-Mikoshi and Shura-Oh outweigh or equalize those benefits. Yet somehow he gains 12 seconds on Stage 4 and 13 seconds in stage 5. Maybe lag plays a much bigger role than I thought? Optimized movements should account for only 2-3 seconds in each stage, so it's just really odd to see times that quick with very few differences in the routes.

Omnigamer

2012-08-23 01:51:07 am

All the things

Delicious new skip found for 4-3, as well as a way to make Jyuso-Dama more consistent. Video of the skip:

This saves ~15 seconds on average over the old route, so it's pretty huge. Of course it's more difficult too, and I'm going to have to practice a lot on getting that bounce consistently. I also need to experiment with lag reduction in that middle section. But with this as part of the run, it means I can expect times as low as sub-15:40. So new goal: beat GTimeKiller's TAS.

Exo

2012-08-23 04:34:12 am

Sandbagging

Haha damn dude that 4-3 skip is awesome. Nice job! Smiley

PJ

2012-08-23 09:10:37 am

Is PJ

Nice skip! I enjoy this. Haha.

Omnigamer

2012-08-25 07:02:34 pm

All the things

I hit a 15:50 earlier this week in non-streamed attempts, but I'm still not quite satisfied. It had a 3-cycle En-Mikoshi and some screwups throughout Stage 4. I can save up to 12 seconds on En-Mikoshi with a 1-cycle kill (I may have to settle for a 2-cycle, at the cost of 4-6 seconds), and I've been saving ~7 seconds over the Stage 4 split. The sum of my best splits is something ridiculous like 15:19 now, but I can hope to take it down another 10-12 seconds at least. Honestly though, I'm starting to get burnt out on some of these runs. I have long stretches where I don't even get out of Stage 2, so it's starting to push my patience. In any case, I'll consider a run submittable as soon as I clear 15:45, which was the equivalent time of GTimeKiller's rejected TAS.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2012-08-30 11:00:30 pm

Omnigamer: 2012-08-30 11:00:13 pm

2012-08-30 10:58:30 pm

All the things

I did three hours of attempts tonight and didn't get a good pattern from Boss 2 at all, so I'm a bit ticked off. I only got a 2-cycle pattern once as well, which is also really really bad luck. It's only a 1/4 chance for any of the attacks, but he just never seems to drop. Argh.

So I went back and analyzed the RNG a bit more. Turns out the period for it is only 1558 (of 64k possible values) which is really bad for any sort of random number generation. In any case, within that cycle I analyzed how many of the outputs correspond to which boss patterns.

0: 415
1: 385
2: 392
3: 366

For En-Mikoshi, 0 is lasers, 1 is the electro balls, 2 is soul balls, and 3 makes him vulnerable. For Shura-Oh, 0 is top, 1 is left side, 2 is right side, and 3 is top. To break this down a little better...

0: 26.64%
1: 24.71%
2: 25.16%
3: 23.49%

This doesn't help out a whole lot, but it justifies using the right side on Shura-Oh. While the chances for a 3 are slightly lower, it's not enough that I should be getting that pattern so rarely... bah.

Even setting it up in an accumulation graph doesn't reveal any big surprises, although there are several "sweet spots" for 0 and a couple of poor spots for 1. If I could control the RNG to any extent, I would have to avoid those regions as best as possible. The graph indicates that there aren't really any regions I could just arbitrarily end up in though.

I did three hours of attempts tonight and didn't get a good pattern from Boss 2 at all, so I'm a bit ticked off. I only got a 2-cycle pattern once as well, which is also really really bad luck. It's only a 1/4 chance for any of the attacks, but he just never seems to drop. Argh.

So I went back and analyzed the RNG a bit more. Turns out the period for it is only 1558 (of 64k possible values) which is really bad for any sort of random number generation. In any case, within that cycle I analyzed how many of the outputs correspond to which boss patterns.

0: 415
1: 385
2: 392
3: 366

For En-Mikoshi, 0 is lasers, 1 is the electro balls, 2 is soul balls, and 3 makes him vulnerable. For Shura-Oh, 0 is top, 1 is left side, 2 is right side, and 3 is top. To break this down a little better...

0: 26.64%
1: 24.71%
2: 25.16%
3: 23.49%

This doesn't help out a whole lot, but it justifies using the right side on Shura-Oh. While the chances for a 3 are slightly lower, it's not enough that I should be getting that pattern so rarely... bah.

Even setting it up in an accumulation graph doesn't reveal any big surprises, although there are several "sweet spots" for 0 and a couple of poor spots for 1. If I could control the RNG to any extent, I would have to avoid those regions as best as possible. The graph indicates that there aren't really any regions I could just arbitrarily end up in though.

Attachment:

cumsum.bmp

MURPHAGATOR!

2012-08-30 11:07:45 pm

Terraffirmative!

Harsh. It does make me wonder, do any of your attacks influence the RNG? If so are there any attacks that Mikoshi does which you could respond to by doing those attacks to nudge the probability in your favor? Might be more work than its worth I know, but just throwing it out there.

Omnigamer

2012-08-31 02:09:44 am

All the things

Done. 15:31 RTA start to last hit on boss; knock off 7.5 seconds for SDA timing. I had to settle for a second-cycle kill on En-Mikoshi at the cost of ~8 seconds, but the rest of the run went great so I can't complain.

Whew.

ozzy88

2012-08-31 04:16:29 am

Can't wait to see it!

Exo

2012-08-31 05:01:15 am

Sandbagging

^5 Congrats Omni!

Mr. K

2012-08-31 08:41:03 am

Yes

I saw it live. It was beyond my comprehension. Congratulations Omni!

Omnigamer

2012-09-21 12:43:44 am

All the things

Small update, the video has been uploaded.

Omnigamer

2014-02-25 11:42:48 am

All the things

So at some point Japanese runner Ohon picked up the game and ground out a 14:59. It gets perfect luck on En-Mikoshi and Shura-Oh and revises a lot of room strategies to gain a handful of seconds on each stage. That said, I still think there are improvements. Another notable addition is a different RNG manipulation in 1-1 to get a blue flame and 3 bombs. This would help tremendously for the run.

I can't watch the video right now, but the actual manipulation phase goes through to the second ship. I didn't consider this possible due to the hover-robos having a per-frame effect on RNG, but Ohon uses a cue to set up consistent backflips to get him to the ship with roughly the same RNG each time. I haven't experimented with it yet so I can't comment on the exact steps, but with this setup it may also be possible to manipulate RNG further into the run. I think it's pretty unlikely to come up with a consistent setup for 1-3 however.

A few reminders about RNG:

-RNG advances only when called, but gets called for a lot of graphical effects, including dust, explosions, feathers, etc.
-Killing many enemies advances the RNG for their drops. Some have set drops and do not advance it (such as the axe kabuki fighters). The explosions for those enemies may still advance it though.
-Most enemies do not have RNG calls as part of their AI and are position-based. Thus it doesn't matter how long they're on-screen or otherwise.
-Bosses will call RNG for attacks and sometimes movement. Other times it can be manipulated such that they do not call RNG at all (such as staying on Shura-Oh's platform).

So at some point Japanese runner Ohon picked up the game and ground out a 14:59. It gets perfect luck on En-Mikoshi and Shura-Oh and revises a lot of room strategies to gain a handful of seconds on each stage. That said, I still think there are improvements. Another notable addition is a different RNG manipulation in 1-1 to get a blue flame and 3 bombs. This would help tremendously for the run.

I can't watch the video right now, but the actual manipulation phase goes through to the second ship. I didn't consider this possible due to the hover-robos having a per-frame effect on RNG, but Ohon uses a cue to set up consistent backflips to get him to the ship with roughly the same RNG each time. I haven't experimented with it yet so I can't comment on the exact steps, but with this setup it may also be possible to manipulate RNG further into the run. I think it's pretty unlikely to come up with a consistent setup for 1-3 however.

A few reminders about RNG:

-RNG advances only when called, but gets called for a lot of graphical effects, including dust, explosions, feathers, etc.
-Killing many enemies advances the RNG for their drops. Some have set drops and do not advance it (such as the axe kabuki fighters). The explosions for those enemies may still advance it though.
-Most enemies do not have RNG calls as part of their AI and are position-based. Thus it doesn't matter how long they're on-screen or otherwise.
-Bosses will call RNG for attacks and sometimes movement. Other times it can be manipulated such that they do not call RNG at all (such as staying on Shura-Oh's platform).

EpiclyEpic

Edit history:

EpiclyEpic: 2014-02-25 06:39:58 pm

2014-02-25 06:37:38 pm

I picked up this game about a month or 2 ago, J cart of course. I have been wanting to run it since I saw your SGDQ run Omni, as I had never seen the game prior to this. I recently finished a casual playthrough and was able to start messing around with learning strats and stuff. Looking through Ohon's run that you sent me, I was able to replicate the RNG up to the last bomb drop, but I dont know how much further from there I can make use of it(the RNG manipulation, not the actual run). Im looking forward to learning the rest of the game and doing some runs!

edit: Also gamesaver does work with this game, so that'll be a tremendous help.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2014-02-26 01:55:45 pm

2014-02-25 11:02:33 pm

All the things

Posting for convenience and all that:

EDIT: Also, this is my analysis of the route differences and possible improvements over his run.

Ohon Improvements:

1-1:
-Better manip route. Time backflip from after first ship (last stream of bullets) such that you get 1 blue and 3 bombs from enemies during second ship.
+Still uses backflips. Can probably replace with slides for slight improvement.

1-2:
-Immediately starts backflips on ground, slides through turtles.
-At top, bounce off of gunner for quicker rise.
-Change timing on frogman kill, double kick.
+Experiment with further frogman strats?

1-3:
-Different worm skip. Hold down after backflip to not have knockback.
-Kill flamethrower before progressing.
-Skip some bounces?
+Change movement slightly. Also, try

Boss 1:
+Try using bomb to change timing, kill boss earlier. Otherwise, do downkick IK.

2-1:
-Different boss kill method (tumble jump after ground). Might get double hit?
+Experiment with other quick kill strats. Time out difference between far and middle death.

2-2:
-Backflip through crushers, weave between blocks.
-Different route to get up to top level. Take platforms.
-Fire pits: get blue, use 2 damage boosts to get through. Slide to victory.
+Can get better speed by not sliding on conveyors. Some improvements to movement.
+Zips in final conveyor section?

2-3:
-Better bounce pattern in final stretch. Use soldier and masher.
+Do TAS fire slides?

Boss 2:
-Pray.

3-1:
-Backflips through first area.
-Exploits tumbles to avoid getting locked into positioning sequence.
+Better slides could help, or bounces. Probably stick to ground though.

3-2:
-Use kicks on walls.
-Elevator skip. Use a bomb for momentary invuln.
-In last laser section, bounce on drones to get through quicker.
-On miniboss, backflips at end instead of slides. May be slightly faster/slower, or improve consistency.
+Don't slide on conveyors.

Boss 3:
+Manipulate boss towards bottom of screen for faster death sequence.

4-1:
-Mainly flips, slides under some birds.
+Better pattern on miniboss.

4-2:
-More backflips. Jumps earlier after elevator.
-Different position for miniboss. Slightly faster, but what about upper left?
+Zips?
+Better movement (slides, when possible).
+Elevator skips?

4-3:
-Double bounce on jumping sword dude.
-Lower jumps during final platforms.

Boss 4:
-Right side for first phase?
-Bombs and tumble combinations for tiles.
-Not sure if changes are any more effecient.

5-1:
-Different doom train timing. Not necessarily faster.
+More efficient ways to kill initial waves?
+Better Setsuna battle.

5-2:
-Slide through sawblades at end.
+Don't miss the soldier skip.

5-4:
-Grenade to kill one soldier in the way.
-Better bounce pattern towards end.

5-5:
-Use spike damage to get through fire earlier.
-Use kick to get through final gate.
+Use zips at beginning?
+Use dive glitch to get through platforms.

Boss 5:
-Assume left core? Boss uses two hand attacks. Might be manipulated by jumps?
+Right core still more likely.

Final:
-Use grenades on lower faces. Maybe they have lower invuln times?
+Explore use of tumbles on faces.

Posting for convenience and all that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=comvC4aH92w

EDIT: Also, this is my analysis of the route differences and possible improvements over his run.

Ohon Improvements:

1-1:
-Better manip route. Time backflip from after first ship (last stream of bullets) such that you get 1 blue and 3 bombs from enemies during second ship.
+Still uses backflips. Can probably replace with slides for slight improvement.

1-2:
-Immediately starts backflips on ground, slides through turtles.
-At top, bounce off of gunner for quicker rise.
-Change timing on frogman kill, double kick.
+Experiment with further frogman strats?

1-3:
-Different worm skip. Hold down after backflip to not have knockback.
-Kill flamethrower before progressing.
-Skip some bounces?
+Change movement slightly. Also, try

Boss 1:
+Try using bomb to change timing, kill boss earlier. Otherwise, do downkick IK.

2-1:
-Different boss kill method (tumble jump after ground). Might get double hit?
+Experiment with other quick kill strats. Time out difference between far and middle death.

2-2:
-Backflip through crushers, weave between blocks.
-Different route to get up to top level. Take platforms.
-Fire pits: get blue, use 2 damage boosts to get through. Slide to victory.
+Can get better speed by not sliding on conveyors. Some improvements to movement.
+Zips in final conveyor section?

2-3:
-Better bounce pattern in final stretch. Use soldier and masher.
+Do TAS fire slides?

Boss 2:
-Pray.

3-1:
-Backflips through first area.
-Exploits tumbles to avoid getting locked into positioning sequence.
+Better slides could help, or bounces. Probably stick to ground though.

3-2:
-Use kicks on walls.
-Elevator skip. Use a bomb for momentary invuln.
-In last laser section, bounce on drones to get through quicker.
-On miniboss, backflips at end instead of slides. May be slightly faster/slower, or improve consistency.
+Don't slide on conveyors.

Boss 3:
+Manipulate boss towards bottom of screen for faster death sequence.

4-1:
-Mainly flips, slides under some birds.
+Better pattern on miniboss.

4-2:
-More backflips. Jumps earlier after elevator.
-Different position for miniboss. Slightly faster, but what about upper left?
+Zips?
+Better movement (slides, when possible).
+Elevator skips?

4-3:
-Double bounce on jumping sword dude.
-Lower jumps during final platforms.

Boss 4:
-Right side for first phase?
-Bombs and tumble combinations for tiles.
-Not sure if changes are any more effecient.

5-1:
-Different doom train timing. Not necessarily faster.
+More efficient ways to kill initial waves?
+Better Setsuna battle.

5-2:
-Slide through sawblades at end.
+Don't miss the soldier skip.

5-4:
-Grenade to kill one soldier in the way.
-Better bounce pattern towards end.

5-5:
-Use spike damage to get through fire earlier.
-Use kick to get through final gate.
+Use zips at beginning?
+Use dive glitch to get through platforms.

Boss 5:
-Assume left core? Boss uses two hand attacks. Might be manipulated by jumps?
+Right core still more likely.

Final:
-Use grenades on lower faces. Maybe they have lower invuln times?
+Explore use of tumbles on faces.

EpiclyEpic

2014-02-26 04:28:55 pm

http://www.twitch.tv/epicly_epic/c/3793348

So I was messing with the clip/zip thing in 1-2 in hopes that I could get it down so I could play with it in 4-2(I think thats the cave level). But going back and watching the TAS I realized that would probably be much harder due to where and when the zips happen.

Omnigamer

2014-02-26 05:01:35 pm

All the things

So the walljump is separate from what I reference by zips. I don't think the walljump will show up in realtime runs since you can usually scale things about as quickly with much less effort. The zips in most places are small lateral zips that just push you to the edge of an overhang or through a wall. Through-wall zips are tricky since they have a high probability of killing you, but most are possible in real-time (I think).

EpiclyEpic

2014-02-27 01:55:41 am

Ah, I see. I might mess around with the through wall zips when I get that far, but I should probably just finish learning the route so I can start doing runs :p

EpiclyEpic

2014-02-28 04:37:23 am

Alright, Ive learned up to 4-2 so far and came up with a very minor strat. I timed it out and was a tiny bit faster, although it was a manual time so it could definitely be inaccurate.

Also, would the bottom route in this level be any faster? Like sliding the whole way? I know its way more random damage wise but I was curious. And finally, does clipping into the wall here always insta-kill, or was I just having a bad time...

Omnigamer

2014-02-28 07:17:58 am

All the things

Good find! That's probably a little faster, but it'll have to be timed out fully. I don't remember all of the bottom route, but IIRC it's not any faster due to the terrain and enemy placement. The zips will kill you most of the time. I have to revisit the TAS notes but I think making use of them requires a certain amount of upward momentum as well as pressing down at the right time.

EpiclyEpic

Edit history:

EpiclyEpic: 2014-03-03 02:33:05 am

EpiclyEpic: 2014-03-03 02:32:21 am

EpiclyEpic: 2014-03-03 02:23:58 am

2014-03-03 02:19:34 am

Well I finished my first run today and got a 19:02. I had some decent levels, but I also had some reallllllllyyyyy bad mistakes(died on Shura Oh). Nothing a little more practice shouldnt clean up.

lurk

2014-03-03 10:02:42 am

i've tried the 1-1 blue flame path that ohon uses and either i'm doing something wrong or it's not exactly 100% consistent. been getting the blue flame about 1/5 times, which isn't that bad to reset for

Omnigamer

2014-03-03 11:19:07 am

All the things

It won't be consistent if you start the backflips after the first ship with a different timing. The main point for error in setting up the RNG is the floating yellowish bomb ships that call the RNG a couple times a frame for some particle effects. So long as you're maintaining the right start timing you should be able to hit the same RNG every time, but I don't know what the window is yet. I would advise testing on emulator and watching the values for the RNG while trying it out a few times. The address should be earlier on in this thread.

EpiclyEpic

2014-03-03 12:50:31 pm

Yeah, I get it much more consistent than 1/5, but it is early on so resets arent that bad. I do, however, sometimes get stuck in little rut where the second ship drops 3 guys even though I setup correctly. It could be an error on my part but Im not sure. If it happens 2 times in a row(and it usually happens more than once when it occurs) I just do a hard reset and that tends to fix it.

EpiclyEpic

Edit history:

EpiclyEpic: 2014-03-03 04:29:35 pm

2014-03-03 04:26:17 pm

Here is another VERY minor strat change I figured Id upload. I havent timed this and itd probably be like a quarter of a second faster if that :p (The bouce at the start of the climb, the fire slides will definitely save more time than that)

Also, while messing with the fire slides, I found that as long as you dont dropkick on the pillars and instead fall while holding right, its much easier to set up.