Guacamelee

2014-05-18 04:24:33 pm

Protongue, so this means there are only 2 SDG's in the Good End route? No SDG at Tule Tree anymre?

Also, thank you thank you THANK YOU all of you for helping me so much with getting this run ready for SGDQ. All the things that have been done with this game the past few months have been so amazing, and I've put in so little legwork for them.

Bagel_Thief

2014-05-18 04:37:27 pm

Dude, I think I speak for everyone when I say we all love this game and would like it's speedrunning community to grow. As we have all become sort of de-sensitized to all the tricks we can do for it, it is going to be very cool to see the Drinkbox guys reaction to what can be done with a game that they literally know inside and out. the more "holy shit"'s we get is sure to make our community grow so no thanks are needed (also unlike you I've actually put in little legwork, not like I'm going to be doing this crazy shit in front of people). Cheesy

NiL8r

2014-05-18 04:48:45 pm

Thanks Bagel Smiley

Also Protongue, why do we activate the Forest Del Chivo Olmec Head? Does that affect where the SDG warps us to?

Protongue

Edit history:

Protongue: 2014-05-18 09:05:36 pm

Protongue: 2014-05-18 09:04:59 pm

Protongue: 2014-05-18 09:04:41 pm

Protongue: 2014-05-18 08:57:24 pm

2014-05-18 08:07:39 pm

Quote from NiL8r:

Protongue, so this means there are only 2 SDG's in the Good End route? No SDG at Tule Tree anymre?
Also Protongue, why do we activate the Forest Del Chivo Olmec Head? Does that affect where the SDG warps us to?

You've figured it all out, as confirmed on your stream. To clarify for anyone else, I listed the Good Ending route changes relative to Any%. We still SDG at Tule Tree and we activate Forest del Chivo's Olmec Head for the Desierto Caliente skip.

The game really has evolved over the past few months. It's been fun optimizing the run with you all Smiley

FriedEel

Edit history:

FriedEel: 2014-05-19 12:05:18 pm

FriedEel: 2014-05-19 12:04:43 pm

FriedEel: 2014-05-19 12:03:13 pm

FriedEel: 2014-05-19 12:02:56 pm

2014-05-19 11:59:51 am

So after getting the idea from a video I saw a little while back and mentioning that I thought it was patched out, protongue let me know that it was still possible if not rather precise. It's a pretty close input, but I think it's still pretty consistent to buffer the wall jump and use it as a double jump before any of the new movement mechanics we have. Pretty much you jump off a wall and click the left trigger a little after you normally would for the cacti arena skip:

Weskurrr

Edit history:

Weskurrr: 2014-05-19 10:46:08 pm

2014-05-19 10:45:06 pm

Quote from FriedEel:

So after getting the idea from a video I saw a little while back and mentioning that I thought it was patched out, protongue let me know that it was still possible if not rather precise. It's a pretty close input, but I think it's still pretty consistent to buffer the wall jump and use it as a double jump before any of the new movement mechanics we have. Pretty much you jump off a wall and click the left trigger a little after you normally would for the cacti arena skip:

This one's tricky to pull off! There has to be maybe 3 frames at most to pull it off, and I think I'm being generous there. It's nice to finally solve the mystery of why I would occasionally hop in that room, at least. Now, to get practicing on pulling it off consistently

I want to record an any% tutorial with the current strats for the Guacommunity Youtube channel soon, ideally on Saturday evening, though if I feel that's too early or am too tired from work, I can postpone it for another day. I'm wondering what you guys think would be the best way to go about doing this. I was thinking of just recording on stream, with chat overlay, so I have the Guacommunity there. I also considered offline recording, just so it's more...uh, I guess, 1-on-1? But I'm not sure about which way I want to proceed. Which method do you guys think would work better?

[quote="FriedEel"]So after getting the idea from a video I saw a little while back and mentioning that I thought it was patched out, protongue let me know that it was still possible if not rather precise. It's a pretty close input, but I think it's still pretty consistent to buffer the wall jump and use it as a double jump before any of the new movement mechanics we have. Pretty much you jump off a wall and click the left trigger a little after you normally would for the cacti arena skip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGS-6Py8tic&feature=youtu.be[/quote]

This one's tricky to pull off! There has to be maybe 3 frames at most to pull it off, and I think I'm being generous there. It's nice to finally solve the mystery of why I would occasionally hop in that room, at least. Now, to get practicing on pulling it off consistently

I want to record an any% tutorial with the current strats for the Guacommunity Youtube channel soon, ideally on Saturday evening, though if I feel that's too early or am too tired from work, I can postpone it for another day. I'm wondering what you guys think would be the best way to go about doing this. I was thinking of just recording on stream, with chat overlay, so I have the Guacommunity there. I also considered offline recording, just so it's more...uh, I guess, 1-on-1? But I'm not sure about which way I want to proceed. Which method do you guys think would work better?

Protongue

2014-05-20 11:25:57 am

Eel, awesome use of the buffered wall jump - that's a nice way to save a couple seconds. Thanks for the input explanation, I hadn't figured out how to do it consistently!

Weskurrr, I say it comes down to your personal preference for your tutorial series' format. The streaming approach will be more challenging, with the loss of free rehearsal and editing control. Community participation might make up for those limitations, as long as stream delay and chat disruptiveness do not pose issues. If you go the streaming route, I recommend omitting chat overlay to reduce your obligation to acknowledge chat messages which do not fit the flow of your tutorial. Regardless of how you do these tutorials, I'm looking forward to them!

FriedEel

Edit history:

FriedEel: 2014-05-21 07:07:30 am

2014-05-21 07:05:02 am

I think it's a great idea weskurrr! Echoing PT, I think that if you were to stream the guide live, the overlay might cause too much distraction. Especially after considering the issues with stream delay. Maybe the best approach would be to stream with no overlay and record a ton of content for you to edit and manipulate later? That way if you miss anything chat can help point it out, but you'll still be able to do things from one perspective which makes for a better guide imo.

And if you miss anything in stream or want to amend a portion you'll still be able to edit or record a local video. Would be much nicer to have these options available imo - but do whatever is comfortable for you!

Bagel_Thief

2014-05-21 07:25:30 am

I've set up the Guacommunity YouTube channel and already upload tutorials on select door glitch and cacti arena skip. presentation of the channel needs to be improved but that'll happen in time. I can invite anyone to be a manager on the site so you can all upload/alter any content on there and it'll be a great place to bring together all of our collective knowledge and skills of the game for people to see and use. If anyone would like to become a manager of the channel (which you all should) just Twitch PM me with your Email address that your YouTube channel is linked to and I'll invite you.

I think that on the channel we should have trick/arena tutorials, route tutorials and complete runs to show how they all come together during a run. ther is probably more things to add to that but I can't think of them right now.

Also if anyone see's my tutorials and thinks they could do better in terms of explanation/execution/presentation just go for it, I won't be offended. Just upload your own and delete the old videos.

I've set up the Guacommunity YouTube channel and already upload tutorials on select door glitch and cacti arena skip. presentation of the channel needs to be improved but that'll happen in time. I can invite anyone to be a manager on the site so you can all upload/alter any content on there and it'll be a great place to bring together all of our collective knowledge and skills of the game for people to see and use. If anyone would like to become a manager of the channel (which you all should) just Twitch PM me with your Email address that your YouTube channel is linked to and I'll invite you.

I think that on the channel we should have trick/arena tutorials, route tutorials and complete runs to show how they all come together during a run. ther is probably more things to add to that but I can't think of them right now.

Also if anyone see's my tutorials and thinks they could do better in terms of explanation/execution/presentation just go for it, I won't be offended. Just upload your own and delete the old videos.

Weskurrr

Edit history:

Weskurrr: 2014-05-22 10:11:59 am

2014-05-22 10:10:15 am

I finally sat down and recorded a Chupacabra Mountain tutorial. It's pretty rough, but I think it covers the basics:

As for the any% tutorial, I've decided to record offline; this will give me a more controlled environment in terms of recording, especially for trouble areas (great temple pls). For the time being, I've been drafting an outline which will be shared here once it's finished; contained within this outline are suggestions for anything special I need to show during recording, as well as talking points for the tutorial's commentary. My reasoning behind sharing it here is to open it up to the Guacommunity for peer review; I believe that you guys will definitely catch something that I've missed, and can also suggest better ways to go about performing various maneuvers within the run. We've got tutorials all over the place, so my primary focus in this tutorial will be teaching the route; the individual tricks (such as swap hopping, the cacti arena skip, SDG) have already been covered elsewhere, and right now, I'm not sure how I should approach incorporating the explanation of these tricks into this tutorial, as I feel like I'd be beating a dead horse by doing it lol

I finally sat down and recorded a Chupacabra Mountain tutorial. It's pretty rough, but I think it covers the basics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z4PV7L3zAA

As for the any% tutorial, I've decided to record offline; this will give me a more controlled environment in terms of recording, especially for trouble areas (great temple pls). For the time being, I've been drafting an outline which will be shared here once it's finished; contained within this outline are suggestions for anything special I need to show during recording, as well as talking points for the tutorial's commentary. My reasoning behind sharing it here is to open it up to the Guacommunity for peer review; I believe that you guys will definitely catch something that I've missed, and can also suggest better ways to go about performing various maneuvers within the run. We've got tutorials all over the place, so my primary focus in this tutorial will be teaching the route; the individual tricks (such as swap hopping, the cacti arena skip, SDG) have already been covered elsewhere, and right now, I'm not sure [i]how[/i] I should approach incorporating the explanation of these tricks into this tutorial, as I feel like I'd be beating a dead horse by doing it lol

Protongue

Edit history:

Protongue: 2014-05-22 03:21:39 pm

Protongue: 2014-05-22 03:19:25 pm

Protongue: 2014-05-22 03:19:12 pm

Protongue: 2014-05-22 03:18:40 pm

2014-05-22 03:18:18 pm

The Guacommunity YouTube channel and the content is looking good, guys. Great work on the tutorials Bagel and Weskurrr Smiley

Here are couple more ways to save time (~11 seconds RTA) after SDG in Pueblucho:
1. When Calaca kills Juan and you regain character control in the land of the dead, Start + Quit. An easy way to confirm you have control of Juan is to hold right, so when you see his run animation begin, it's safe to Start + Quit. This warps you to the edge of Pueblucho, skipping the run across the mansion.
2. When Juan first puts on the luchador mask AND you see his feet lift off the ground, Start + Quit. The game loads with the barrel guy screaming about skeletons in the church. This skips part of the mask acquisition animation and the corresponding cutscene.

Graphics are temporarily glitched after #2, where Juan isn't fully luchador. This has no effect on the gameplay, and it corrects itself at the next loading screen.

FriedEel

2014-05-22 08:07:47 pm

Duuude, the guacommunity YouTube videos are amazing! Awesome job bagel and weskurrr, they're perfect introductions to the tricks. I wouldn't worry about optimization since I'm sure we'd all disagree on a lot of room patterns still, a lot of the fun has been seeing how everyone deals with a a particular room.

I made some updates to the site, and the leaderboard submission should be fully functional (still needs refining but is able to have data input at the very least).

And more great stuff as always PT, the sdg keeps on giving.

NiL8r

2014-05-22 09:26:22 pm

For #1 Protongue: I've done that one before and it softlocked the game on me. I was in the land of the dead, but the game acted like the guard into the mansion was still there, but he was blocking me from LEAVING the mansion instead of entering.

Protongue

2014-05-22 09:43:28 pm

Quote from NiL8r:

For #1 Protongue: I've done that one before and it softlocked the game on me. I was in the land of the dead, but the game acted like the guard into the mansion was still there, but he was blocking me from LEAVING the mansion instead of entering.

You Start + Quit after you've regained character control from dying. If you do it too early, the guard will keep you from leaving the mansion, as you experienced.

Bagel_Thief

2014-05-24 12:34:23 am

Well, I can see the any% run being: start game->do SDG a bunch of times and nothing you're supposed to do->kill Calaca-> the end. keep 'em coming PT Wink

Good job.

Protongue

Edit history:

Protongue: 2014-06-06 04:00:58 pm

Protongue: 2014-05-24 01:18:42 am

Protongue: 2014-05-24 01:14:13 am

Protongue: 2014-05-24 12:51:19 am

2014-05-24 12:49:43 am

Haha Bagel, we'll get there eventually Tongue

. Here's a demonstration of a SDG setup variant (Start + Quit from the glitched main menu) and a use for it:

Note that you can queue up the glitched menu before acquiring Rooster Uppercut and then follow through with the SDG setup once the Rooster Uppercut seizure animation completes. But beware it's very finicky and can completely ruin the skip setup (the game blocks you from advancing Goat's dialog if you're not careful).

With this Forest skip, Any% saves ~15-20 seconds and Good Ending saves ~1:05-1:10. Here are the basic route changes for Any%:
* Follow the current route until you acquire Rooster Uppercut.
* In the Forest, SDG with Start + Quit from the glitched main menu. Game loads at Forest - Pueblucho region connector.
* Run to Agave Field and Start + Quit. Game loads at Forest - Santa Luchita region connector.
* Follow the current route until you Start + Quit after acquiring Pollo Power.
* Game loads at Forest - Tule Tule region connector. Take the up-left route back to Pueblucho (the one with the spirit door) and fight X'tabay.
* After defeating X'tabay and acquiring Dimension Swap, get the treasure and stamina chunk per usual. Once the stamina animation completes, Start + Quit.
* Game loads at Forest - Pueblucho region connector. Proceed with the current route from here.

To my knowledge, this makes four SDG setups from the glitched main menu:
1. New Game. Starts a New Game. Game crashes if you use this when in a costume other than Juan.
2. Continue. Loads the game at the last activated region connector, checkpoint, or Olmec Head (complicated load position rules!). Game progress after last checkpoint is discarded.
3. Start + Quit (seen in the video). Loads the game at the position where you loaded into the region (typically a region connector). Current game progress is preserved.
4. Extras -> play cutscene. Works the same as #3.

EDIT: Corrected New Game crashing logic.

Haha Bagel, we'll get there eventually :P . Here's a demonstration of a SDG setup variant (Start + Quit from the glitched main menu) and a use for it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frDrHz3fGxE

Note that you can queue up the glitched menu before acquiring Rooster Uppercut and then follow through with the SDG setup once the Rooster Uppercut seizure animation completes. But beware it's very finicky and can completely ruin the skip setup (the game blocks you from advancing Goat's dialog if you're not careful).

With this Forest skip, Any% saves ~15-20 seconds and Good Ending saves ~1:05-1:10. Here are the basic route changes for Any%:
* Follow the current route until you acquire Rooster Uppercut.
* In the Forest, SDG with Start + Quit from the glitched main menu. Game loads at Forest - Pueblucho region connector.
* Run to Agave Field and Start + Quit. Game loads at Forest - Santa Luchita region connector.
* Follow the current route until you Start + Quit after acquiring Pollo Power.
* Game loads at Forest - Tule Tule region connector. Take the up-left route back to Pueblucho (the one with the spirit door) and fight X'tabay.
* After defeating X'tabay and acquiring Dimension Swap, get the treasure and stamina chunk per usual. Once the stamina animation completes, Start + Quit.
* Game loads at Forest - Pueblucho region connector. Proceed with the current route from here.

To my knowledge, this makes four SDG setups from the glitched main menu:
1. New Game. Starts a New Game. Game crashes if you use this when in a costume other than Juan.
2. Continue. Loads the game at the last activated region connector, checkpoint, or Olmec Head (complicated load position rules!). Game progress after last checkpoint is discarded.
3. Start + Quit (seen in the video). Loads the game at the position where you loaded into the region (typically a region connector). Current game progress is preserved.
4. Extras -> play cutscene. Works the same as #3.

EDIT: Corrected New Game crashing logic.

Weskurrr

2014-05-24 02:31:26 am

Well, this complicates things as far as gold goes, as gold from the arena monsters helps to hit 3500 by the time you reach the first desert checkpoint. That being the case, I've found that if you get the pinata in Santa Luchita and one from Temple of Rain (the one in the skeleton room where you have to use the portals to kill them is a good one to shoot for), you're going to juuuust break 3500 when you kill the cactus with the blue dillo after the arena skip.

Also, "the one with the spirit door", do you mean we have to basically just proceed past the first arena, uppercut the red block that we now skip early in the game, then head left and do the climb through the area with the broken bridge? Because that climb is a whole lot easier with swaphopping. =)

Protongue

2014-05-24 02:52:18 am

Quote from Weskurrr:

Also, "the one with the spirit door", do you mean we have to basically just proceed past the first arena, uppercut the red block that we now skip early in the game, then head left and do the climb through the area with the broken bridge? Because that climb is a whole lot easier with swaphopping. =)

Exactly, that's the path (by spirit door, I'm referring to the dimension block that blocks access to the bridge chasm in the land of the living). It's several seconds faster to go this way vs. the bottom route.

The money route is becoming tight with all these recent arena skips, which gives us even more motivation to optimize the route in that regard!

Weskurrr

Edit history:

Weskurrr: 2014-05-24 07:27:16 pm

Weskurrr: 2014-05-24 07:27:13 pm

Weskurrr: 2014-05-24 07:26:33 pm

Weskurrr: 2014-05-24 07:26:28 pm

Weskurrr: 2014-05-24 03:31:15 am

Weskurrr: 2014-05-24 03:31:00 am

2014-05-24 03:29:17 am

I just got a casual 54:59 in-game time with the new route. I thought I'd cut Imlas...only to find out he had a 54:15 LMAO

As far as cash goes, the previously mentioned pinatas (arena right before Le Coup du Coq, one in Luchita, one in Temple of Rain) plus our current chests (the two in Luchita, the five in ToR, the one in Desierto Caliente) are good for getting 3500 by the first desert check point (I had 3520 in my test run), provided you play well and don't fumble your combos. The chest next to the spirit door and the one under the hill in the room next to Pueblucho are sufficient for gold for the second half of the game. I only grab the one under the hill, as I think going beneath it is faster than running on top.

NiL8r

2014-05-24 08:41:59 am

Jeez. Just... wow

Protongue

Edit history:

Protongue: 2014-05-24 08:57:46 am

2014-05-24 08:52:37 am

Congrats on breaking sub-55 Weskurrr. The battle for 4th place continues, while Anil8r is really close to reclaiming 2nd!

Up until the Stamina Delay Boost L2 purchase in Desierto Caliente, my money route differs from yours in only one way. I forego the extra pinata in Temple of Rain, and check my money after Flame Face tips at Hernando's. I'd like to have $2840+ at this point which seems typical:

$2840
500 (treasure chest)
30 (Blue Armadillo + Cactus)
+ 130 (Flowers + Green Skeletons with a 20+ hit combo)
--------
$3500

If I have less than $2840, I pick up the pinata after the Flower + Green Skeleton arena. I purchase the Stamina Delay Boost L2 one altar later than you Weskurrr, but I don't believe that has any real impact on the run.

With all the treasure chest options later on, it's very easy to have $2000+ for the final stamina chunk purchase at the beginning of Great Temple.

FriedEel

2014-05-25 12:04:19 pm

Amazing work on all the new stuff guys, I think like PT mentioned on the Youtube video - I doubt anyone's gonna miss arena #2.

A little short notice but I'm not gonna be able to make the race today, gonna be having company until around dinner time. I should be able to make it for the website discussion at 7 PM though. I'll be on Mumble then in case anyone else is able to make it.

GL and have fun at the race today!

NiL8r

2014-05-25 12:12:28 pm

Protongue have you measured the net gain you get over the new SDG at Forest Del Chivo? It seems like all the time I'm gaining from skipping the two arenas I'm losing from 1:) having to walk to Agave Field 2:) from having to walk from Forest Del Chivo to XTabay.

Granted, I haven't gotten a run with a good Xtabay yet, so that's a chunk of my time, but I'm still curious exactly how much time the new arena skips are saving overall.

NiL8r

2014-05-25 12:50:26 pm

Also the race is a maybe for me. I'm out digging a fire pit right now, don't know when I'll finish

Protongue

2014-05-25 01:11:13 pm

Sorry to hear you won't be able to make it to the race Eel. Hope you can make it Anil8r!

Anil8r, for Any% I measured a savings of 15-20 seconds for the Forest del Chivo skip (as mentioned in my post). Here are rough time measurements for the old vs. new route sections, assuming near perfect execution and RNG:

Old route (no SDG variant in Forest):
Post-Rooster Uppercut travel to Santa Luchita: 1:25
Post-Pollo Power travel to X'tabay's house (from Mansion): 0:02
Post-X'tabay fight/treasure pickups travel to Forest: 0:27
Total old route specific time: 1:54

New route (SDG variant in Forest):
Forest SDG setup: 0:06
Edge of Forest - Pueblucho - Agave Field - Santa Luchita warp travel: 0:20
Post-Pollo Power travel to X'tabay's house (from Forest's Tule entrance): 1:08
Total new route specific time: 1:34