I am reluctant to admit I haven't booted this game up in a little over a week. A lot of IRL stuff has been going on all at once, and I needed to take a step back for a while. I haven't messed around with any 1P2Controller stuff yet, so I definitely need to just do a slow practice/test run sometime going through all the new stuff that's been discovered. Not sure when I'll be able to do this, but it shouldn't be any later than next weekend for sure.
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That is an awesome way to eliminate the setup's finickiness! Based on how smooth and seamless everything looks now, it must be the final setup.
Also, congrats on SHATTERING the Any% Hard WR twice, Eel! I just watched the tail end of your run from this morning, and have to say that second aztec skeleton room was incredible...
Also, congrats on SHATTERING the Any% Hard WR twice, Eel! I just watched the tail end of your run from this morning, and have to say that second aztec skeleton room was incredible...
Well, here's the result of an offline practice session that wasn't as cataclysmic as my last few have been, but could still use improvement in a lot of areas, especially my left side wallhopping. Looks like it's time to grind, grind, and when I'm done grinding, grind a lot more:
Dude, Eel, those strats are wicked! I had no idea those green skellies could be manipulated like that. This will come in handy in a lot of places, but especially the arena right before Santa Luchita and the one right before headbutt. That desert arena technique also looks like it'll be making its way into my run as well, lmao. You got more strats than Fender right now, I can't wait to try this stuff out!
Dude, Eel, those strats are wicked! I had no idea those green skellies could be manipulated like that. This will come in handy in a lot of places, but especially the arena right before Santa Luchita and the one right before headbutt. That desert arena technique also looks like it'll be making its way into my run as well, lmao. You got more strats than Fender right now, I can't wait to try this stuff out!
Congrats on the PB, Weskur!
Eel, your yellow-shield Chupacabra insights motivated me to develop a strat. I try to keep the enemy timer rolling (killing the red-shielded guys first) and strike down the Chupacabra before he can cause issues:
The Skeleton movements can throw this strat off a bit (as was true with previous strats), but killing the red-shielded guys and the chupacabra ASAP are priority!
Eel, your yellow-shield Chupacabra insights motivated me to develop a strat. I try to keep the enemy timer rolling (killing the red-shielded guys first) and strike down the Chupacabra before he can cause issues:
The Skeleton movements can throw this strat off a bit (as was true with previous strats), but killing the red-shielded guys and the chupacabra ASAP are priority!
Edit history:
Protongue: 2014-04-10 10:12:33 pm
Protongue: 2014-04-10 08:55:58 pm
Protongue: 2014-04-10 08:55:38 pm
Protongue: 2014-04-10 08:55:31 pm
Also, we've been discussing running weekly Guacamelee! races soon. Sundays at 4:00 PM EDT is the tentative time that Eel, Bagel_Thief, and myself have discussed. Does that time work for anyone else who is interested?
Sounds good to me. Although I know literally nothing about setting up/joining a race on SRL 
One thing though, have we come to some kind of decision with how to regard any 1 Player, 2Controller type strategies? Should we consider 1P2C it's own category even if it ends up being faster? Although, I suppose if we wanted it to be official, we'd have to have some kind of video proof showing that there is indeed only 1 player.
We can discuss this more at length later, but basically, is the race going to only be using 1 Player strats?
One thing though, have we come to some kind of decision with how to regard any 1 Player, 2Controller type strategies? Should we consider 1P2C it's own category even if it ends up being faster? Although, I suppose if we wanted it to be official, we'd have to have some kind of video proof showing that there is indeed only 1 player.
We can discuss this more at length later, but basically, is the race going to only be using 1 Player strats?
All of this new stuff looks awesome, and I can't wait to try to fit it into my own route. Sadly, it seems the final year, especially the final month, of a University course isn't really a great time to start speedrunning so I haven't been able seriously start running or streaming yet. Looking to knock my 100% time (1:52:08 atm) down to sub 1:50, maybe sub 1:45 if I think I can manage, before watching other runs to learn all the tricks I might be missing (I'm sure I'm missing something big to get it down to sub 1:40). I'll probably pick up any% as well, if these weekly races stay a thing, so looking forward to it once I'm done with Uni!
Great race guys!
Special thanks to HalfCoordinated for: 1) offering us his Mumble server to use for the race, 2) sending everyone instructions on how to setup Mumble 3) guiding us through the process of starting a race via mIRC, 4) sending the multitwitch links to our chats so the race could be viewed properly. You rock man, thank you so much!
All of the participants for this race set new best race time for the game on the Guacamelee! SRL page (ie: the best race times are the times of our race): http://speedrunslive.com/races/game/#!/guacamelee/1
Some questions that got brought up that warrant discussion/review (ie: things we could add to the race rules):
1) Start at "are you sure you want to start a new game" > Select "yes"
2) End at pressing "Y" and grabbing El Presidente's daughter
3) 1p2c strats: I think it's probably best that for the purposes of racing we don't include these. I think presently it saves about 15-20 seconds, but having them in the races might discourage participation so I'm personally fine with not having them in the race. The any% runs are a different subject of discussion, do we make a new category for them? I personally think that it shouldn't be necessary, but will opt to the consensus of the community.
4) linux vs. windows: Protongue's load times clearly put him at a disadvantage. Protongue let me know how the efforts to run a partition of Windows are going for you and maybe we can consolidate a fastest version/OS to race the game on. I'm not sure about 360 or ps3 but I think the Windows PC version on Steam runs the fastest.
---
Also, everyone seems to be in the agreement that Sunday @ 4:00 PM EDT/EST is the best time to do the any% races. Anil8r I think you left right before we agreed on that, is that good for you? Anyone else is welcome to give input, if not we'll tentatively schedule weekly any% races for then.
Given that there isn't a 100% weekly race yet, what time works good for everyone interested in this category for these runs? We could do it before the any% race around say... 1:00 PM EDT/EST? Also, I need to make sure Bagel and Lady are on these forums.
Much <3
Special thanks to HalfCoordinated for: 1) offering us his Mumble server to use for the race, 2) sending everyone instructions on how to setup Mumble 3) guiding us through the process of starting a race via mIRC, 4) sending the multitwitch links to our chats so the race could be viewed properly. You rock man, thank you so much!
All of the participants for this race set new best race time for the game on the Guacamelee! SRL page (ie: the best race times are the times of our race): http://speedrunslive.com/races/game/#!/guacamelee/1
Some questions that got brought up that warrant discussion/review (ie: things we could add to the race rules):
1) Start at "are you sure you want to start a new game" > Select "yes"
2) End at pressing "Y" and grabbing El Presidente's daughter
3) 1p2c strats: I think it's probably best that for the purposes of racing we don't include these. I think presently it saves about 15-20 seconds, but having them in the races might discourage participation so I'm personally fine with not having them in the race. The any% runs are a different subject of discussion, do we make a new category for them? I personally think that it shouldn't be necessary, but will opt to the consensus of the community.
4) linux vs. windows: Protongue's load times clearly put him at a disadvantage. Protongue let me know how the efforts to run a partition of Windows are going for you and maybe we can consolidate a fastest version/OS to race the game on. I'm not sure about 360 or ps3 but I think the Windows PC version on Steam runs the fastest.
---
Also, everyone seems to be in the agreement that Sunday @ 4:00 PM EDT/EST is the best time to do the any% races. Anil8r I think you left right before we agreed on that, is that good for you? Anyone else is welcome to give input, if not we'll tentatively schedule weekly any% races for then.
Given that there isn't a 100% weekly race yet, what time works good for everyone interested in this category for these runs? We could do it before the any% race around say... 1:00 PM EDT/EST? Also, I need to make sure Bagel and Lady are on these forums.
Much <3
Yeah, awesome race! Can't wait for next time 
On my PC, loading screens are much faster on Windows (~0.5 seconds) than on Linux (~2-3 seconds). This discrepancy only affects RTA (in-game time seems consistent). My Windows installation should be ready for next race; I just need a consistent way to connect a Wii Classic Controller Pro (bluetooth + GlovePIE + PPJoy isn't working out). Mayflash's USB adapter looks promising (shipping now!). I'll keep you posted!
Quote from FriedEel:
4) linux vs. windows: Protongue's load times clearly put him at a disadvantage. Protongue let me know how the efforts to run a partition of Windows are going for you and maybe we can consolidate a fastest version/OS to race the game on. I'm not sure about 360 or ps3 but I think the Windows PC version on Steam runs the fastest.
On my PC, loading screens are much faster on Windows (~0.5 seconds) than on Linux (~2-3 seconds). This discrepancy only affects RTA (in-game time seems consistent). My Windows installation should be ready for next race; I just need a consistent way to connect a Wii Classic Controller Pro (bluetooth + GlovePIE + PPJoy isn't working out). Mayflash's USB adapter looks promising (shipping now!). I'll keep you posted!
So, elephant in the room. I got a new WR on the normal any% run last night using 1p2c strats:
Though I think the consensus has been that they should be included in normal any% runs, I don't want to speak for anyone else. I'll take this time to voice my (obvious) opinion and say that I'd like to have the 1p2c strats remain in the same category. We're looking at about ~20 seconds time saved at the moment if you were to choose to use them. This has the potential to change. How do you guys think would be the best way to go about deciding this? Host a public vote? Ask if anyone has any objections? As stated before I'll opt to the community consensus.
Cheers.
Though I think the consensus has been that they should be included in normal any% runs, I don't want to speak for anyone else. I'll take this time to voice my (obvious) opinion and say that I'd like to have the 1p2c strats remain in the same category. We're looking at about ~20 seconds time saved at the moment if you were to choose to use them. This has the potential to change. How do you guys think would be the best way to go about deciding this? Host a public vote? Ask if anyone has any objections? As stated before I'll opt to the community consensus.
Cheers.
I'm of the opinion that it should not be a separate category. Any% means getting the fastest time regardless of means or methods. The only issue I foresee; is someone claiming that a second person is using the second controller. The only way to remedy that is a webcam, which some people may not have the capability of using one
Awesome run Eel! I'm in agreement with both of you on 1p2c. The time saved is minor until one is really pushing the game as far as it can go, so I am fine with it being the same category.
I made an interesting discovery this morning, dubbed the select door glitch!
I've tested several skip and warp ideas with it, and found one that saves ~1:30 on any%. Here is a rough outline:
1. Select door glitch in Pueblucho after saving Fray and the villagers. This creates a quit warp to Pueblucho.
2. Follow the current route until you acquire Pollo Power with the following exceptions:
* Pick up an additional treasure in Santa Luchita (on ERROR and sister's first floor)
* No S&Q trick in Temple of Rain after acquiring Olmec Headbutt
3. After aquiring Pollo Power, trigger the first checkpoint and then quit. You warp to Pueblucho, ready to fight X'tabay!
4. Follow the current route until you acquire Double Jump with the following exceptions:
* Break the underground path in the Forest's first screen to acquire the treasure (you can Frog Slam to the left of the last block)
5. After acquiring Double Jump, purchase a stamina chunk per usual. Instead of quitting, use the select door glitch via the door on your right. This creates a quit warp to Tule Tree, so you will reload at the Tule Tree's Olmec head.
6. Follow the current route until the end.
This trick might have even more potential. Try it out and I look forward to hearing what you guys discover!
I made an interesting discovery this morning, dubbed the select door glitch!
I've tested several skip and warp ideas with it, and found one that saves ~1:30 on any%. Here is a rough outline:
1. Select door glitch in Pueblucho after saving Fray and the villagers. This creates a quit warp to Pueblucho.
2. Follow the current route until you acquire Pollo Power with the following exceptions:
* Pick up an additional treasure in Santa Luchita (on ERROR and sister's first floor)
* No S&Q trick in Temple of Rain after acquiring Olmec Headbutt
3. After aquiring Pollo Power, trigger the first checkpoint and then quit. You warp to Pueblucho, ready to fight X'tabay!
4. Follow the current route until you acquire Double Jump with the following exceptions:
* Break the underground path in the Forest's first screen to acquire the treasure (you can Frog Slam to the left of the last block)
5. After acquiring Double Jump, purchase a stamina chunk per usual. Instead of quitting, use the select door glitch via the door on your right. This creates a quit warp to Tule Tree, so you will reload at the Tule Tree's Olmec head.
6. Follow the current route until the end.
This trick might have even more potential. Try it out and I look forward to hearing what you guys discover!
Oh wow...LOL!!! Holy crap, I gotta start routing around that the moment I'm off work tonight! That glitch is cray cray! Slight problem here is that now, you have to land the Cacti arena skip or the backup strat for it, as this will prevent you from quit/continuing if you completely miss it.
I can only imagine how much use this will see in 100% runs, and how much time it will save on those as well.
EDIT: Since we can use this at the start of Tule Tree, I'm assuming the save skips there are obsolete now, right? You can just Select Door your way back to the entrance and Olmec to Luchita.
Also, casting my lot in on the 1p2c thing, I originally thought it should've been a separate category, but any% is pretty much defined by doing whatever you gotta do to clear the game fast. I suppose there's really no problem with it that I can think of. It makes for some interesting runs. Another thing I'm wondering about is if using the Select Door glitch will reset the controller settings whenever you use it.
I can only imagine how much use this will see in 100% runs, and how much time it will save on those as well.
EDIT: Since we can use this at the start of Tule Tree, I'm assuming the save skips there are obsolete now, right? You can just Select Door your way back to the entrance and Olmec to Luchita.
Also, casting my lot in on the 1p2c thing, I originally thought it should've been a separate category, but any% is pretty much defined by doing whatever you gotta do to clear the game fast. I suppose there's really no problem with it that I can think of. It makes for some interesting runs. Another thing I'm wondering about is if using the Select Door glitch will reset the controller settings whenever you use it.
Hey there, just want to chime in as a person who does not run this game (and therefore whose opinion should be given commensurately less weight). Personally, I think permitting 1p2c strats in the standard any% category has the potential to create a very murky situation with regard to actual co-op runs. What is the actual distinction between a 1p2c run and an honest-to-god co-op run? If you want to be able to consider 1p and 2p runs the same category, then no problem. However, if you want to separate them, then you need to have a clear rule that distinguishes them. In my opinion, "use of the second controller at any time during the run" is a simple distinction that fits the bill - however, you guys may be able to come up with something better that fits what you want for the game.
Generally, SDA considers multiplayer runs (with any number of players) as a separate category from single-player. But as far as what you guys want to do as a community, that does not necessarily need to be determined by what SDA does.
(edited to clarify the suggested 1p vs 2p distinction)
Generally, SDA considers multiplayer runs (with any number of players) as a separate category from single-player. But as far as what you guys want to do as a community, that does not necessarily need to be determined by what SDA does.
(edited to clarify the suggested 1p vs 2p distinction)
Quote from Weskurrr:
Since we can use this at the start of Tule Tree, I'm assuming the save skips there are obsolete now, right? You can just Select Door your way back to the entrance and Olmec to Luchita.
The save skips might still be necessary, but we'll have to verify that. I believe that even when you set your select door region to Tule Tree your exact load position within that region is the last spawn point activated. However, if you activate a spawn point outside of the select door region, your actual spawn point is a bit more unpredictable... investigation necessary!
Quote from NiL8r:
So this glitch can be used at any doorway?
That appears to be the case! Every door I tried in Agave Field (Juan's house), Pueblucho, Forest (Goat's house), Santa Luchita, and Tule Tree worked. You can also use this trick multiple times in a run, to reassign your quit warp region.
It would be awesome if we could use select door to skip the desert pollo section. My testing was unsuccessful - if you quit after X'tabay shifts you to the land of the dead, you reload as human and there doesn't appear to be a way to ever turn into a pollo. If you hit a checkpoint as a pollo and then quit, there doesn't appear to be a path to reach El Diablo to acquire Pollo Power (the tunnel to the left of the cacti arena is blocked off, and you can't jump over the cacti on the ledge in pollo form). But there might be something I'm missing!
Quote from Protongue:
The save skips might still be necessary, but we'll have to verify that. I believe that even when you set your select door region to Tule Tree your exact load position within that region is the last spawn point activated. However, if you activate a spawn point outside of the select door region, your actual spawn point is a bit more unpredictable... investigation necessary!
Got it. After I'm off of work and I've had my exercise, that's something I want to play around with, but at first glance, your observation seems spot-on; when you showcased it in your video, I noticed Juan popped up at the entrance to Pueblucho, near the save point. I cannot, in good conscience, rule that out as a coincidence. Another thing I suspect may be happening is that it loads you at the door you used if you load from the map, or the entrance point of that map if you leave it and the game needs to load it again. Can't wait to play around with it.
EDIT:
Quote from Vulajin:
Hey there, just want to chime in as a person who does not run this game (and therefore whose opinion should be given commensurately less weight). Personally, I think permitting 1p2c strats in the standard any% category has the potential to create a very murky situation with regard to actual co-op runs. What is the actual distinction between a 1p2c run and an honest-to-god co-op run? If you want to be able to consider 1p and 2p runs the same category, then no problem. However, if you want to separate them, then you need to have a clear rule that distinguishes them. In my opinion, "use of the controller at any time during the run" is a simple distinction that fits the bill - however, you guys may be able to come up with something better that fits what you want for the game.
Generally, SDA considers multiplayer runs (with any number of players) as a separate category from single-player. But as far as what you guys want to do as a community, that does not necessarily need to be determined by what SDA does.
Generally, SDA considers multiplayer runs (with any number of players) as a separate category from single-player. But as far as what you guys want to do as a community, that does not necessarily need to be determined by what SDA does.
Hmm...food for thought. Perhaps 1p2c could be considered a subcategory of co-op if we were to eventually separate it from Normal Any%. I'm okay with where it is now, but it's something to consider when co-op runs start to become more commonplace (which may not happen, considering the co-op for Guac doesn't support playing with someone else online right now).
I've been testing the Select Door glitch, and the game seems to load you at the last entrance point you used on the map you activate the glitch on, but it will load your character up with the most recent saved information. It may be possible for us to avoid the save skips, but I've only done limited testing for now (in between calls and on break); I will continue to test and report back with further findings.
EDIT: GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! The save skips in Tule Tree are obsolete using the Select Door method! I triggered the first while running through the tree, then Quit and it spawned me back at the entrance next to the forest. No more worrying about Save Skip...which I'm 90% consistent with right now.
EDIT: GOOD NEWS EVERYONE! The save skips in Tule Tree are obsolete using the Select Door method! I triggered the first while running through the tree, then Quit and it spawned me back at the entrance next to the forest. No more worrying about Save Skip...which I'm 90% consistent with right now.
Quote from Vulajin:
Hey there, just want to chime in as a person who does not run this game (and therefore whose opinion should be given commensurately less weight). Personally, I think permitting 1p2c strats in the standard any% category has the potential to create a very murky situation with regard to actual co-op runs. What is the actual distinction between a 1p2c run and an honest-to-god co-op run? If you want to be able to consider 1p and 2p runs the same category, then no problem. However, if you want to separate them, then you need to have a clear rule that distinguishes them. In my opinion, "use of the second controller at any time during the run" is a simple distinction that fits the bill - however, you guys may be able to come up with something better that fits what you want for the game.
Generally, SDA considers multiplayer runs (with any number of players) as a separate category from single-player. But as far as what you guys want to do as a community, that does not necessarily need to be determined by what SDA does.
(edited to clarify the suggested 1p vs 2p distinction)
Generally, SDA considers multiplayer runs (with any number of players) as a separate category from single-player. But as far as what you guys want to do as a community, that does not necessarily need to be determined by what SDA does.
(edited to clarify the suggested 1p vs 2p distinction)
First of all Vulajin, I think that everyone who runs this game would agree you're an honorary member of the Guacamunity - you're like our rabbi. The guacastepdad.
The fact of it is, save for anil8r, most of the runners here are completely new to this kind of thorough analysis of speedrunning (the majority of us being fans prior to running, and only gleaming the aesthetic pleasure of viewing a speedrun). It'd be foolish of us not to listen to the input of people who have dealt with these kinds of issues before. Granted no game is similar and all speedrunning rules are "technically" arbitrary (is that an oxy moron?), but we all ended up meeting and discussing this game via these forums so I think it's not out of the question to take into consideration what constitutes different categories via SDA's standards. These standards have come about due to a history of disputes and long winded discussion, the negative aspect of which our game and community has the luxury of avoiding by heeding the advice of people who've seen this kind of thing play out before.
I find myself particularly reluctant to speak up given the fact that I hold the current record using these strats and I don't want to come across as salty or bais. I'm largely opposed to the notion of that warranting any decision-making authority over any other Guac runner - it's kinda awkward, and I'm awkward enough as it is. So I and i'm sure everyone else definitely welcomes your input.
I'm very fond of the "use of the second controller at any time during the run." I wanted to amend it to say something like "use of the second controller for combat" but then I realized, does warping through the dimensions in the skeleton bridge count as "combat?" Also, it's conceivable that someone could get good enough at 1p2c to where they could actually complete arenas faster. I was working on the first arena the other night, it's actually not that bad.
There's also the issue of 2 people good enough to complete a 2 player speedrun living in close proximity. The second player only has to do the arenas to speed up time - player 1 can still do the platforming, wallclimbing, etc. Hell if I'm ever in Jacksonville, Weskurrr and I might be able to do some pretty disgusting things to the time.
That said, I'm going to change my vote to a separate category - however I have every intention of pursuing this "use of the second controller at any time" category." The fact of it is I've always gone for the in-game timer on Steam leaderboards, as it gives me a tangible measurement of my run in comparison to the other Guac runners - and the majority of the game is still completed faster with 1 person in control. Most of the exceptions are doable by a single player.
I think this is a good precaution to take too, in the wake of Super Turbo Championship Edition - which I'm 100% sure will be much faster with 2 people. Youtube the latest video from PAX prime mentioning the shadow mode (2 players, 1 in each dimension, hurting different enemies in different dimensions).
But as for now, that's where I stand! I guess my next two questions are 1) Do we still call it normal any% or do I have to add some long title to the run now? and 2) PROTONGUE HOW DID YOU FIGURE OUT THIS NEW STRAT? After my run last night I was like "man all we need is one more skip of about a minute and a half to get sub 50" and you went and found it in a couple of hours. IM GETTING ON GUACE RIGHT NOW
Talking with other people who don't run the game, I'm leaning towards making a separate 1P2C category, if only for the sake of making it easier for people interested in learning the game. To have Any% include the 1P2C strata would be both intimidating and confusing for new runners, especially if more combat arenas become doable.