Grand Theft Auto: Vice City - October 26, 2014

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2014-10-27 04:00:52 pm

2014-10-27 03:59:41 pm

Who ever argued frigate escape and 16 star aren't arbitrary? I don't think too many people would care if frigate escape went down off sda, and 16 star isn't taken very seriously anymore either. The only reason people would care is because they used to be allowed on the site and that it would be unfair to the runners.

EDIT: Who is to say anyone will care about this arbitrary category after a while either?

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2014-10-27 04:09:39 pm

2014-10-27 04:06:22 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from AdamAK:

But dropping the metric that has been deemed sensible for a long time has major implications for other runs (e.g., San Andreas and GTA V, but probably also other series). That's the issue with just dropping it and rejecting it here. Goes well beyond the submitted run.

I don't think anybody's saying drop the metric entirely, they're saying use it in a way that's not obviously unintentionally broken. Again, I refer you to Gold Skulltalas as precedent.

Quote from AdamAK:

Quote:

Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories.

This is quite inconsistent with pages such as http://speeddemosarchive.com/Mario64.html or, very ironically, even Metroid Prime, which tracks the best time for escaping the frigate. If that's not arbitrary, then I don't see how Vice City's duped 100% is.

Those sections of the game have obvious timers so they fit in quite well. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Quote from AdamAK:

(2) For the rejection to be well-founded, it requires a redefinition of what constitutes 100% in not only Vice City but also other games. Since the actual running community has already decided on the categories, I really don't see why SDA is splitting off from this definition or what the foundation is for trying to supersede the community definitions - especially since not a single staff member on SDA's side is involved in the GTA speedrunning community in any way.

"Community activity" is a useful but not THE metric that can be used to determine whether SDA as a site will post a run of a given category. I don't see how that's a redefinition of anything, really. The old 100% definition hasn't changed for this game, because it was made under the assumption that the in-game counter could not be broken by mission duplication.

Quote from Gaël:

Why wasn't it part of the private verifiers' thread ?

Because, frankly, their input wouldn't have made a difference to the decision. Though we probably should have warned you guys earlier. Sorry about that.

Quote:

There's 3 Any% categories on SDA for Crash Bandicoot 2, at least one of them (no GO Abuse) is really arbitrary.

It's analogous to "deathless" or "no death abuse" or however you want to label it. There was some debate over whether the accidental death(s?) in it made it close enough, and we eventually decided that it did since they were strictly time-wasting deaths.

Quote:

The recent Chrono Trigger "100%" run from earlier this year was quite arbitrary, it only does all sidequests but skip most of the bosses, it doesn't leave a feeling of "full completion".

100% for Chrono Trigger has long been defined as "all side quests at the End of Time", and that hasn't changed just because of new boss skips.

[quote="AdamAK"]But dropping the metric that has been deemed sensible for a long time has major implications for other runs (e.g., San Andreas and GTA V, but probably also other series). That's the issue with just dropping it and rejecting it here. Goes well beyond the submitted run.[/quote]

I don't think anybody's saying drop the metric entirely, they're saying use it in a way that's not obviously unintentionally broken. Again, I refer you to Gold Skulltalas as precedent.

[quote="AdamAK"][quote]Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories.[/quote]

This is quite inconsistent with pages such as http://speeddemosarchive.com/Mario64.html or, very ironically, even Metroid Prime, which tracks the best time for escaping the frigate. If that's not arbitrary, then I don't see how Vice City's duped 100% is.[/quote]

Those sections of the game have obvious timers so they fit in quite well. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

[quote="AdamAK"](2) For the rejection to be well-founded, it requires a redefinition of what constitutes 100% in not only Vice City but also other games. Since the actual running community has already decided on the categories, I really don't see why SDA is splitting off from this definition or what the foundation is for trying to supersede the community definitions - especially since not a single staff member on SDA's side is involved in the GTA speedrunning community in any way.[/quote]

"Community activity" is a useful but not THE metric that can be used to determine whether SDA as a site will post a run of a given category. I don't see how that's a redefinition of anything, really. The old 100% definition hasn't changed for this game, because it was made under the assumption that the in-game counter could not be broken by mission duplication.

[quote="Gaël"]Why wasn't it part of the private verifiers' thread ?[/quote]

Because, frankly, their input wouldn't have made a difference to the decision. Though we probably should have warned you guys earlier. Sorry about that.

[quote]There's 3 Any% categories on SDA for Crash Bandicoot 2, at least one of them (no GO Abuse) is really arbitrary.[/quote]

It's analogous to "deathless" or "no death abuse" or however you want to label it. There was some debate over whether the accidental death(s?) in it made it close enough, and we eventually decided that it did since they were strictly time-wasting deaths.

[quote]The recent Chrono Trigger "100%" run from earlier this year was quite arbitrary, it only does all sidequests but skip most of the bosses, it doesn't leave a feeling of "full completion".[/quote]

100% for Chrono Trigger has long been defined as "all side quests at the End of Time", and that hasn't changed just because of new boss skips.

Gaël

Edit history:

Gaël: 2014-10-27 04:10:42 pm

2014-10-27 04:09:49 pm

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

100% for Chrono Trigger has long been defined as "all side quests at the End of Time", and that hasn't changed just because of new boss skips.

100% for Vice City has long been defined as "get 100% on the stat menu", why should it be changed because of the new skips ?

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2014-10-27 04:12:34 pm

2014-10-27 04:10:14 pm

Not a walrus

I just explained that.

Edit: If somebody found a way to glitch out the completion flags for the Chrono Trigger side quests, we'd probably have to reevaluate the definition. The bosses themselves were never part of that definition.

AlecK47

2014-10-27 04:10:18 pm

+1 to what UA said, with one exception: I understand about 16 Star being perhaps unnecessary. I wouldn't necessarily say it warrants removal, but it has major skips and isn't the fastest method of any% anymore.

TheMG2

2014-10-27 04:11:32 pm

Quote from AlecK47:

+1 to what UA said, with one exception: I understand about 16 Star being perhaps unnecessary. I wouldn't necessarily say it warrants removal, but it has major skips and isn't the fastest method of any% anymore.

I realized after the fact that adam was referring to the peach's slide times and such. I didn't see them because they were lower on the page.

LLCoolDave

2014-10-27 04:15:33 pm

Quote from AdamAK:

But dropping the metric that has been deemed sensible for a long time has major implications for other runs (e.g., San Andreas and GTA V, but probably also other series). That's the issue with just dropping it and rejecting it here. Goes well beyond the submitted run.

This decision has, as far as I can tell, no implications beyond Vice City unless the mission duping glitch also applies beyond that scope.

Quote from AdamAK:

For the rejection to be well-founded, it requires a redefinition of what constitutes 100% in not only Vice City but also other games. Since the actual running community has already decided on the categories, I really don't see why SDA is splitting off from this definition or what the foundation is for trying to supersede the community definitions - especially since not a single staff member on SDA's side is involved in the GTA speedrunning community in any way.

But several GTA community members have already, in this thread, said that this run is/should be treated as a separate category from the 'old' 100%. I don't think there is a strong argument for this replacing the traditional 100% category on either end, so it is a new category that has to stand on its own. It neither classifies as a 100% run by SDA standards, nor does it complete the game, so it just really doesn't fit into our framework.

The 'new' definition of 100% in Vice City should, unless there's a strong reason to diverge from that, just match the goals that needed to be achieved in the 'old' category. This includes picking up each packet, doing each super jump, completing each unique mission, doing the side missions that are tracked etc. Basically just achieving each unique subgoal that can increase the completion counter in the game. We're not disagreeing with the game's (and as a result, the community's, before this dupe glitch) definition of what constitutes full completion of the game, all we are noting is that since the game can be compelled to count the same achievement multiple times, that the numerical counter is no longer reliable and should thus not be used as the base of the definition.

It seems to me that the San Andreas completion counter does not track burglary missions and unique jumps, and thus the community decided to not include them in their definition of what 100%/full completion in the game constitutes. If the decision then (or now) is made that unique stunts are traditionally part of 100% in GTA games and should thus also be completed in a 100% run of San Andreas (despite not influencing that counter in the game) we'd be very open to listen to that community input as well.

Quote from Gaël:

I don't buy the "does not beat the game" argument, most people will agree that "credits warp" runs don't beat the game either, and I know of at least 1 (pokemon) "credits warp" run being accepted on SDA, and probably many others in the future.

Whether or not credit warp runs complete the game in a meaningful sense is still an ongoing debate, both among speedrunners and more importantly in the tool assisted community. What is at least true is that they achieve a recognizable ending in some fashion. This category simply stops somewhere in the middle of the game.

[quote="AdamAK"]But dropping the metric that has been deemed sensible for a long time has major implications for other runs (e.g., San Andreas and GTA V, but probably also other series). That's the issue with just dropping it and rejecting it here. Goes well beyond the submitted run.[/quote]

This decision has, as far as I can tell, no implications beyond Vice City unless the mission duping glitch also applies beyond that scope.

[quote="AdamAK"]For the rejection to be well-founded, it requires a redefinition of what constitutes 100% in not only Vice City but also other games. Since the actual running community has already decided on the categories, I really don't see why SDA is splitting off from this definition or what the foundation is for trying to supersede the community definitions - especially since not a single staff member on SDA's side is involved in the GTA speedrunning community in any way.[/quote]

But several GTA community members have already, in this thread, said that this run is/should be treated as a separate category from the 'old' 100%. I don't think there is a strong argument for this replacing the traditional 100% category on either end, so it is a new category that has to stand on its own. It neither classifies as a 100% run by SDA standards, nor does it complete the game, so it just really doesn't fit into our framework.

The 'new' definition of 100% in Vice City should, unless there's a strong reason to diverge from that, just match the goals that needed to be achieved in the 'old' category. This includes picking up each packet, doing each super jump, completing each unique mission, doing the side missions that are tracked etc. Basically just achieving each unique subgoal that can increase the completion counter in the game. We're not disagreeing with the game's (and as a result, the community's, before this dupe glitch) definition of what constitutes full completion of the game, all we are noting is that since the game can be compelled to count the same achievement multiple times, that the numerical counter is no longer reliable and should thus not be used as the base of the definition.

It seems to me that the San Andreas completion counter does not track burglary missions and unique jumps, and thus the community decided to not include them in their definition of what 100%/full completion in the game constitutes. If the decision then (or now) is made that unique stunts are traditionally part of 100% in GTA games and should thus also be completed in a 100% run of San Andreas (despite not influencing that counter in the game) we'd be very open to listen to that community input as well.

[quote="Gaël"]I don't buy the "does not beat the game" argument, most people will agree that "credits warp" runs don't beat the game either, and I know of at least 1 (pokemon) "credits warp" run being accepted on SDA, and probably many others in the future.[/quote]

Whether or not credit warp runs complete the game in a meaningful sense is still an ongoing debate, both among speedrunners and more importantly in the tool assisted community. What is at least true is that they achieve a recognizable ending in some fashion. This category simply stops somewhere in the middle of the game.

kirbymastah

2014-10-27 04:18:46 pm

<(^_^)>

To be fair, there are categories and such (like frigate escape in metroid prime, which IS accepted on SDA) that don't really finish the game (credits or not), so I don't think that point should really hold against this. The ZSR 100% definition of minish cap doesn't end the run with beating the last boss (because there's postgame content; the run ends upon obtaining the last item).

TheMG2

2014-10-27 04:19:16 pm

Kirby please actually read posts.

Freezard

2014-10-27 04:19:41 pm

I think the problem is that SDA tracks what is 100% for a game despite not always having the game knowledge to judge what actually is 100%. The Serious Sam games are known to have bugged enemy triggers which makes killing all enemies impossible, so a 100% category as tracked by the in-game stats will never be possible. But since SDA are looking at "true" 100% and not "in-game stats" 100% then you'd think a 100% category would be possible after all by excluding the bugged enemies. However they rejected a recent such run partly because they couldn't be sure if it really was "true" 100%, despite the runner giving proof that it was: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/serious_sam_hd_the_second_encounter__may_22_2014.html

The same thing could be said about OoB and large-skips categories which I've already ranted about before. The use of these categories is very random from game to game, just look at the Tomb Raider games where some are categorized as large-skips and others not despite using basically the same glitches. Apparently TR Anniversary in 40 minutes is not using any large skips despite whole levels being skipped... and again, looking at the Serious Sam games, getting out of the level perimeters to completely skip whole levels is not flagged as anything but when you start using a certain glitch to float through the air then it's suddenly OoB. The exact same kind of air walking glitch is used in my recent F.E.A.R. run and it was not flagged as OoB either. It's all just a random mess.

TheMG2: Funny how you keep mentioning Metroid Prime as the prime example of how games should be categorized when it has literally the worst categorization of all games on SDA. As previously mentioned the Frigate escape category makes no sense at all, especially not since both runs are crushed by the actual Frigate escape time in the any% SDA run.

I think the problem is that SDA tracks what is 100% for a game despite not always having the game knowledge to judge what actually is 100%. The Serious Sam games are known to have bugged enemy triggers which makes killing all enemies impossible, so a 100% category as tracked by the in-game stats will never be possible. But since SDA are looking at "true" 100% and not "in-game stats" 100% then you'd think a 100% category would be possible after all by excluding the bugged enemies. However they rejected a recent such run partly because they couldn't be sure if it really was "true" 100%, despite the runner giving proof that it was: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/serious_sam_hd_the_second_encounter__may_22_2014.html

The same thing could be said about OoB and large-skips categories which I've already ranted about before. The use of these categories is very random from game to game, just look at the Tomb Raider games where some are categorized as large-skips and others not despite using basically the same glitches. Apparently TR Anniversary in 40 minutes is not using any large skips despite whole levels being skipped... and again, looking at the Serious Sam games, getting out of the level perimeters to completely skip whole levels is not flagged as anything but when you start using a certain glitch to float through the air then it's suddenly OoB. The exact same kind of air walking glitch is used in my recent F.E.A.R. run and it was not flagged as OoB either. It's all just a random mess.

TheMG2: Funny how you keep mentioning Metroid Prime as the prime example of how games should be categorized when it has literally the worst categorization of all games on SDA. As previously mentioned the Frigate escape category makes no sense at all, especially not since both runs are crushed by the actual Frigate escape time in the any% SDA run.

AdamAK

2014-10-27 04:21:03 pm

Totally rad

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

Those sections of the game have obvious timers so they fit in quite well. I'm not sure what the problem is here.

So I can just go ahead and submit runs of any mission using a timer in a GTA game? Now that would be some serious category bloating.

Quote:

The recent Chrono Trigger "100%" run from earlier this year was quite arbitrary (it was rejected, but only because of the watermark on the video, nobody discuss the actual category), it only does all sidequests but skip most of the bosses, it doesn't leave a feeling of "full completion".

100% for Chrono Trigger has long been defined as "all side quests at the End of Time", and that hasn't changed just because of new boss skips. The rejection for tech reasons is totally irrelevant to your argument so I'm not even sure why you brought that up.

I think the point is that for it to be a valid category with the new boss skips, it would need a redefinition (which never happened). If you don't include all bosses in Chrno Trigger, then why should VC runners include all missions? Why single out Vice City in this when another game has a category issue as well?

Quote:

The old 100% definition hasn't changed for this game, because it was made under the assumption that the in-game counter could not be broken by mission duplication.

Intention may be the same, but clearly the original definition is wrong (since as per Flip's post, it only required 100% in the stats menu, which was accomplished in the submitted run). If that's not good enough, you're gonna have to change not only Vice City's definition, but any game with a percentage counter, as said percentage counter is not infallible.

Quote:

This decision has, as far as I can tell, no implications beyond Vice City unless the mission duping glitch also applies beyond that scope.

It somewhat applies to GTA3, since that game allows for mission duping as well, and there have been signs that it may work in San Andreas, though if it does, it's likely to be very different. The previously cited Metroid Prime 2 example required a redefinition of 100% as well due to a duping glitch, so this goes beyond GTA. I would be amazed if these games are the only ones with such duping tricks.

[quote="UraniumAnchor"]Those sections of the game have obvious timers so they fit in quite well. I'm not sure what the problem is here.[/quote]
So I can just go ahead and submit runs of any mission using a timer in a GTA game? Now that would be some serious category bloating.

[quote][quote]The recent Chrono Trigger "100%" run from earlier this year was quite arbitrary (it was rejected, but only because of the watermark on the video, nobody discuss the actual category), it only does all sidequests but skip most of the bosses, it doesn't leave a feeling of "full completion".[/quote]

100% for Chrono Trigger has long been defined as "all side quests at the End of Time", and that hasn't changed just because of new boss skips. The rejection for tech reasons is totally irrelevant to your argument so I'm not even sure why you brought that up.[/quote]

I think the point is that for it to be a valid category with the new boss skips, it would need a redefinition (which never happened). If you don't include all bosses in Chrno Trigger, then why should VC runners include all missions? Why single out Vice City in this when another game has a category issue as well?

[quote]The old 100% definition hasn't changed for this game, because it was made under the assumption that the in-game counter could not be broken by mission duplication.[/quote]

Intention may be the same, but clearly the original definition is wrong (since as per Flip's post, it only required 100% in the stats menu, which was accomplished in the submitted run). If that's not good enough, you're gonna have to change not only Vice City's definition, but any game with a percentage counter, as said percentage counter is not infallible.

[quote]This decision has, as far as I can tell, no implications beyond Vice City unless the mission duping glitch also applies beyond that scope.[/quote]

It somewhat applies to GTA3, since that game allows for mission duping as well, and there have been signs that it may work in San Andreas, though if it does, it's likely to be very different. The previously cited Metroid Prime 2 example required a redefinition of 100% as well due to a duping glitch, so this goes beyond GTA. I would be amazed if these games are the only ones with such duping tricks.

TheMG2

2014-10-27 04:21:13 pm

Quote from Freezard:

TheMG2: Funny how you keep mentioning Metroid Prime as the prime example of how games should be categorized when it has literally the worst categorization of all games on SDA. As previously mentioned the Frigate escape category makes no sense at all, especially not since both runs are crushed by the actual Frigate escape time in the any% SDA run.

Quote from TheMG2:

Who ever argued frigate escape and 16 star aren't arbitrary? I don't think too many people would care if frigate escape went down off sda, and 16 star isn't taken very seriously anymore either. The only reason people would care is because they used to be allowed on the site and that it would be unfair to the runners.

EDIT: Who is to say anyone will care about this arbitrary category after a while either?

LLCoolDave

2014-10-27 04:21:36 pm

Frigate Escape is akin to a timed minigame in other games that have been tracked in the past. It would not make the site by today's standards either.

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 04:23:26 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from kirbymastah:

The ZSR 100% definition of minish cap doesn't end the run with beating the last boss (because there's postgame content; the run ends upon obtaining the last item).

Yoshi's Island 100% doesn't end on finishing the last boss either, but on getting 100 on the final level. So I'm not really sure what argument you're trying to make?

Quote from Freezard:

However they rejected a recent such run partly because they couldn't be sure if it really was "true" 100%, despite the runner giving proof that it was: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/serious_sam_hd_the_second_encounter__may_22_2014.html

If you scroll further down, you'll note I clarified my point:

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

I should mention that the 100% is more a question that needs to be answered before we can decide whether it's valid, and is only a rejection if this isn't as 100% as 100% can get.

If that had been the only issue I would have let it slide until we had a better understanding of what was going on, but there were other reasons that run got rejected so I saw no reason to let it sit in verification.

[quote="kirbymastah"]The ZSR 100% definition of minish cap doesn't end the run with beating the last boss (because there's postgame content; the run ends upon obtaining the last item).[/quote]

Yoshi's Island 100% doesn't end on finishing the last boss either, but on getting 100 on the final level. So I'm not really sure what argument you're trying to make?

[quote="Freezard"]However they rejected a recent such run partly because they couldn't be sure if it really was "true" 100%, despite the runner giving proof that it was: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/serious_sam_hd_the_second_encounter__may_22_2014.html[/quote]

If you scroll further down, you'll note I clarified my point:

[quote="UraniumAnchor"]I should mention that the 100% is more a question that needs to be answered before we can decide whether it's valid, and is only a rejection if this isn't as 100% as 100% can get.[/quote]

If that had been the only issue I would have let it slide until we had a better understanding of what was going on, but there were other reasons that run got rejected so I saw no reason to let it sit in verification.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2014-10-27 04:28:10 pm

2014-10-27 04:25:48 pm

Quote from moooh:

Decision was posted a bit quick imho, since at least the 100% definition warrants a bit more discussion. I guess that wouldn't have changed the outcome due to the console modification of the game though, so maybe just keep going in here.

So basically it was a reject regardless of completion percentage.

Also for CT, the sidequests themselves would be akin to missions in GTA. In this case skipping bosses is like skipping part of a mission, but still completing it.

Edit: And main quests where bosses are skipped too. Same deal there.

puwexil

2014-10-27 04:27:48 pm

Professional Second Banana

Quote from AlecK47:

Also for CT, the sidequests themselves would be akin to missions in GTA. In this case skipping bosses is like skipping part of a mission, but still completing it.

+1 to this - CT 100% has always defined sidequest completion by the text disappearing from Gaspar's list.

Gaël

Edit history:

Gaël: 2014-10-27 04:30:05 pm

2014-10-27 04:28:21 pm

Quote from AlecK47:

Quote from moooh:

Decision was posted a bit quick imho, since at least the 100% definition warrants a bit more discussion. I guess that wouldn't have changed the outcome due to the console modification of the game though, so maybe just keep going in here.

So basically it was a reject regardless of completion percentage.

Also for CT, the sidequests themselves would be akin to missions in GTA. In this case skipping bosses is like skipping part of a mission, but still completing it.

Bosses weren't included in the definition because they were mandatory to beat the game . if they were optional bosses, they would probably be included in the category (there was no point to name the category all bosses when they are required)

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 04:29:32 pm

Not a walrus

Not... really? Otherwise beating all forms of Spekkio would have been required, and I don't think anybody's ever included that in 100%.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2014-10-27 04:30:56 pm

2014-10-27 04:30:08 pm

No offense, but that's quite an assumption. Some basic enemy encounters are skipped that weren't meant to be skippable as well, so should those be completed for 100%?

Edit: this post is directed at Gael, not UA

Vulajin

Edit history:

Vulajin: 2014-10-27 04:41:16 pm

2014-10-27 04:30:58 pm

It would be great if the Chrono Trigger example could be put aside. Chrono Trigger does not have a percentage counter to manipulate, nor does it have a comparable method of eliding the community-defined requirements for 100% in that game. It is irrelevant to this discussion.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2014-10-27 04:58:18 pm

2014-10-27 04:34:28 pm

Modern Yoshi's Island 100% runs also would likely not be allowed by SDA's rules. Yoshi's Island 100% now has red coin duping. But for some reason that community bans flower duping and 1-1 warps.
EDIT: And for the record, things like frigate escape are not considered categories by anyone. They're considered ILs at best. At worst, they're grandfathered in. There should be a note placed in the SDA rules somewhere about these old grandfathered times.

Gaël

2014-10-27 04:54:20 pm

Quote from LLCoolDave:

The 'new' definition of 100% in Vice City should, unless there's a strong reason to diverge from that, just match the goals that needed to be achieved in the 'old' category. This includes picking up each packet, doing each super jump, completing each unique mission, doing the side missions that are tracked etc. Basically just achieving each unique subgoal that can increase the completion counter in the game. We're not disagreeing with the game's (and as a result, the community's, before this dupe glitch) definition of what constitutes full completion of the game, all we are noting is that since the game can be compelled to count the same achievement multiple times, that the numerical counter is no longer reliable and should thus not be used as the base of the definition.

There is no rampages in the French and German version of Vice City, would a "french 100%" or "french full completion" run that follow the new definition (completing everything there is and is tracked on the percentage counter), since there isn't any rampage is that version they can't be included in the definition.
This run will show 99.3% on the stat menu, and will not give the player the 100% rewards. but will complete everything there is within the game.

[quote="LLCoolDave"]The 'new' definition of 100% in Vice City should, unless there's a strong reason to diverge from that, just match the goals that needed to be achieved in the 'old' category. This includes picking up each packet, doing each super jump, completing each unique mission, doing the side missions that are tracked etc. Basically just achieving each unique subgoal that can increase the completion counter in the game. We're not disagreeing with the game's (and as a result, the community's, before this dupe glitch) definition of what constitutes full completion of the game, all we are noting is that since the game can be compelled to count the same achievement multiple times, that the numerical counter is no longer reliable and should thus not be used as the base of the definition.[/quote]

There is no rampages in the French and German version of Vice City, would a "french 100%" or "french full completion" run that follow the new definition (completing everything there is and is tracked on the percentage counter), since there isn't any rampage is that version they can't be included in the definition.
This run will show 99.3% on the stat menu, and will not give the player the 100% rewards. but will complete everything there is within the game.

Onin

2014-10-27 04:57:50 pm

Do the French and German versions obtain 100% by completing everything but rampages? Or are they unable to obtain 100% without duping?

LLCoolDave

2014-10-27 05:01:36 pm

In either case, that would be a version difference, with 100% on those versions being defined the same as on the English release minus the rampages, which in that case apparently would end up reading 99.3% on the stat menu. However, with such a relatively minor difference compared to the length of the category as is, paired with the ease of acquiring an English release of the game these days, the sensible thing would be not to run 100% on the French release in the first place.

Gaël

Edit history:

Gaël: 2014-10-27 05:06:03 pm

Gaël: 2014-10-27 05:03:24 pm

2014-10-27 05:02:30 pm

it's impossible to obtain 100% witouth duping on a french or german system (even if the game is played in english) without switching your windows regional setting.

Quote from LLCoolDave:

In either case, that would be a version difference, with 100% on those versions being defined the same as on the English release minus the rampages, which in that case apparently would end up reading 99.3% on the stat menu. However, with such a relatively minor difference compared to the length of the category as is, paired with the ease of acquiring an English release of the game these days, the sensible thing would be not to run 100% on the French release in the first place.

30min to 1h isn't a minor difference even compared to the length of the category
how is it easy to acquire an "english" release ? every release of the game is censored when your regional setting are french or german