Grand Theft Auto: Vice City - October 26, 2014

2014-10-26 11:26:44 am

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (100 %) (Segmented)

Verifier Responses

Quote from Lighnat0r:

SDA verification of GTA VC 100%

Segment 1:
A/V: Good.
Looks fine, a short and straightforward segment.

Segment 2:
A/V: Good.
Waiting segment, no way to speed this up so showing off a glitch that doesn't cost time is a good way to make it a better watch. Good timing on creating the rampage replay needed for the mission duping in the next segment at the end.

Segment 3:
A/V: Good.
Banshee is a good vehicle to get at the start of the segment. The duping is done well, and getting the right Mercedes on the first attempt is great.

Segment 4:
A/V: Frame drops for ~40 seconds around the 12 min mark. Otherwise good.
Again a decent Banshee at the start. Some small time losses in the segment but overall good quality, better than the current run. Failed the Guardian Angels warp which is a bit of a shame. Also failed the snipe. Good use of other new strats and glitches not used in the current run.

Segment 5:
A/V: Good.
Some tiny losses, good quality.

Segment 6:
A/V: Good.
Seems fine.

Segment 7:
A/V: Good.
Waiting segment, again no way to speed it up.

Segment 8:
A/V: Good.
Duping is done fine, good execution of the mission.

Segment 9:
A/V: Good.
Definitely less optimized as mentioned by the runner. Overall I'm not impressed by the playing quality in this segment, seems to be roughly on par with the existing run.

Overall:
By no means flawless (mainly the last segment) but better quality than existing run. Shows off lots of new glitches, it's great seeing the percentage counter so messed up by duping.

Vastly improved time + better playing => accept.

Quote:

Cheating: none!

A/V: Clear and synced up!

100% achieved!

Accepted!

Quote:

A/V good. No cheating detected.

This run is obviously a different category than the current segmented 100% run which shouldn't be obsoleted (even how outdated it is)

The run isn't perfect, the route didn't work as planned because of the heavy instability of the glitches used, and there's some execution errors that shouldn't be present by today's standards in a well-planned, grinding heavy, segmented run.
But as the runner said, it was meant as a proof of concept and was the 1st time someone reached 100% this way, it turned out almost 6h faster than the fastest 100% run (by Justshanz) and 7h faster than the current 100% segmented run on SDA (by CannibalK9).

easy ACCEPT.

Decision: Reject

Reason: Does not beat the game, does not achieve 100% by SDA standards. Please read my post below.

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/queue/verificationfiles/1352/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

Thread title:

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (100 %) (Segmented)

[b]Verifier Responses[/b]

[quote="Lighnat0r"]SDA verification of GTA VC 100%

Segment 1:
A/V: Good.
Looks fine, a short and straightforward segment.

Segment 2:
A/V: Good.
Waiting segment, no way to speed this up so showing off a glitch that doesn't cost time is a good way to make it a better watch. Good timing on creating the rampage replay needed for the mission duping in the next segment at the end.

Segment 3:
A/V: Good.
Banshee is a good vehicle to get at the start of the segment. The duping is done well, and getting the right Mercedes on the first attempt is great.

Segment 4:
A/V: Frame drops for ~40 seconds around the 12 min mark. Otherwise good.
Again a decent Banshee at the start. Some small time losses in the segment but overall good quality, better than the current run. Failed the Guardian Angels warp which is a bit of a shame. Also failed the snipe. Good use of other new strats and glitches not used in the current run.

Segment 5:
A/V: Good.
Some tiny losses, good quality.

Segment 6:
A/V: Good.
Seems fine.

Segment 7:
A/V: Good.
Waiting segment, again no way to speed it up.

Segment 8:
A/V: Good.
Duping is done fine, good execution of the mission.

Segment 9:
A/V: Good.
Definitely less optimized as mentioned by the runner. Overall I'm not impressed by the playing quality in this segment, seems to be roughly on par with the existing run.

Overall:
By no means flawless (mainly the last segment) but better quality than existing run. Shows off lots of new glitches, it's great seeing the percentage counter so messed up by duping.

Vastly improved time + better playing => accept.
[/quote]

[quote]Cheating: none!

A/V: Clear and synced up!

100% achieved!

Accepted![/quote]

[quote]A/V good. No cheating detected.

This run is obviously a different category than the current segmented 100% run which shouldn't be obsoleted (even how outdated it is)

The run isn't perfect, the route didn't work as planned because of the heavy instability of the glitches used, and there's some execution errors that shouldn't be present by today's standards in a well-planned, grinding heavy, segmented run.
But as the runner said, it was meant as a proof of concept and was the 1st time someone reached 100% this way, it turned out almost 6h faster than the fastest 100% run (by Justshanz) and 7h faster than the current 100% segmented run on SDA (by CannibalK9).

easy ACCEPT.[/quote]

[b]Decision:[/b] Reject

[b]Reason:[/b] Does not beat the game, does not achieve 100% by SDA standards. Please read my post below.

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/queue/verificationfiles/1352/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

Vulajin

2014-10-26 11:27:14 am

Irrespective of the positive responses from verifiers, we have decided to reject this run for two reasons:

1) We will not accept “mission duplication” as a method to achieve “100%” completion. (Read more below.)
2) This run does not beat the game.

The SDA definition of the 100% category is as follows:

Quote:

Full completion/100%: beat the game while collecting all key items or upgrades and doing everything important.

Note that this definition does not simply ask players to achieve a “100%” total on an in-game counter. It specifically requests that the player complete the objectives that are required to achieve that 100% completion total. If mission duping were used to attain early access to something, and subsequently all missions cleared as normal, that would be acceptable. However, using mission duplication solely to increase the completion counter to 100% does not count as full completion for our site.

Eidgod

2014-10-26 11:47:30 am

according to a definition on what constitutes 100% that i found in this forum

Quote from Flip:

100%
-Grand Theft Auto 3: game-defined (100%)
-Grand Theft Auto Vice City: game-defined (100%)

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/low100_definitions.html
2nd post

So an obvious assumption would be that the run that i did does indeed complete 100% according to SDA rules.
I can not really see why this opinion has changed.

Vulajin

2014-10-26 12:15:45 pm

That text should not be construed to mean that the only requirement is for the counter to say "100%". The game defines the requirements for 100%, and those requirements must be met. Flip's text contrasts GTA: VC's game-defined requirements against those of, say, Final Fantasy 6, which are community-defined.

Gaël

2014-10-26 01:04:22 pm

the only purpose of achieving 100% in Vice City is to get a "lousy T-Shirt", extra armor and health, infinite ammunition, double vehicule health and 3 bodyguards.

This run unlocked the rewards.

You are basically saying "this run doesn't complete 100% the intended way so it's not valid"

TheMG2

2014-10-26 01:20:37 pm

This is not a new concept in the slightest by the way. If you can manipulate the ingame counter, then the counter is not really as reliable to use. Otherwise, whats really the distinction between any% and 100% if you just manipulate the number and then have the run basically be the same otherwise. Games with arbitrary code execution its a similar concept. Otherwise you could execute code that would simply rewrite the counter to say "100%". The point of 100% isn't to get an arbitrary number to say "100%". Metroid Prime 2 actually does a dupe, but still gets all the items anyways, so they end up with a 101% completion according to the ingame counter.

Whats the difference really between any% and 100% in this case besides the amount of duping you do?

moooh

2014-10-26 01:40:36 pm

Exoray

Quote from TheMG2:

This is not a new concept in the slightest by the way. If you can manipulate the ingame counter, then the counter is not really as reliable to use. Otherwise, whats really the distinction between any% and 100% if you just manipulate the number and then have the run basically be the same otherwise.

This is pretty spot on. 100% in a game usually means things like complete all missions, collect all items and characters etc. Some games provide a counter that indicates when all of these things are done. Out of convenience, the low%/100% thread refers to the game counter rather than typing out all the requirements, since the game graciously offers one and it was thought to accurately reflect when all of these tasks were done. If it turns out not to be realiable anymore (like in this case when it reports incorrectly) then I guess we'll simply have to re-word the definition to be more clear and instead say "all missions completed, all venues purchased etc. etc." so that people don't misunderstand what it's all about.

[quote="TheMG2"]This is not a new concept in the slightest by the way. If you can manipulate the ingame counter, then the counter is not really as reliable to use. Otherwise, whats really the distinction between any% and 100% if you just manipulate the number and then have the run basically be the same otherwise. [/quote]

This is pretty spot on. 100% in a game usually means things like complete all missions, collect all items and characters etc. Some games provide a counter that indicates when all of these things are done. Out of convenience, the low%/100% thread refers to the game counter rather than typing out all the requirements, since the game graciously offers one and it was thought to accurately reflect when all of these tasks were done. If it turns out not to be realiable anymore (like in this case when it reports incorrectly) then I guess we'll simply have to re-word the definition to be more clear and instead say "all missions completed, all venues purchased etc. etc." so that people don't misunderstand what it's all about.

Freezard

2014-10-26 01:41:26 pm

This is a VERY interesting decision, considering DK64 has a 101% run.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2014-10-26 01:45:13 pm

2014-10-26 01:43:14 pm

The fact that DK64's percentage counter goes up to 101 seems pretty unrelated.
EDIT: As a matter of fact, golden banana duping is banned in DK64 101%.

moooh

2014-10-26 01:52:44 pm

Exoray

In case people misunderstood TheMG2's example from Metroid Prime 2, 100% is about item collection in that game and part of that means collecting each and every missile upgrade, not collecting the same missile upgrade 100 times.

This is also identical to Ocarina of Time, where part of the 100% definition is to collect each gold skulltula, not adjust your gold skulltula number to 100 by duping a single one in a cave. The skulltulas are unique items and part of the 100% collectibles, so this shouldn't be confused with things like duping money in a game where money is not a set amount of unique pickups.

TheMG2

2014-10-26 01:55:59 pm

The only reason the missile in metroid prime 2 is duped is because having more missiles is advantageous for some of the earlier bosses. If it was slower to dupe it and still get all the unique items, then they would not dupe it anymore.

Gaël

Edit history:

Gaël: 2014-10-26 02:08:37 pm

Gaël: 2014-10-26 02:00:31 pm

2014-10-26 01:58:09 pm

Quote from Vulajin:

The SDA definition of the 100% category is as follows:

Quote:

Full completion/100%: beat the game while collecting all key items or upgrades and doing everything important.

Quote from moooh:

This is pretty spot on. 100% in a game usually means things like complete all missions, collect all items and characters etc. Some games provide a counter that indicates when all of these things are done. Out of convenience, the low%/100% thread refers to the game counter rather than typing out all the requirements, since the game graciously offers one and it was thought to accurately reflect when all of these tasks were done. If it turns out not to be realiable anymore (like in this case when it reports incorrectly) then I guess we'll simply have to re-word the definition to be more clear and instead say "all missions completed, all venues purchased etc. etc." so that people don't misunderstand what it's all about.

GTA SA 100% according to the ingame counter doesn't include Unique Stunt Jumps, Burglaries, Triathlons and Girlfriends. Does that mean that if someone goes through the whole process of lossless recording, encoding then submitting a 100% run that only get 100% according to the game it will be rejected because it isn't "doing everything important"?
GTA V 100% skip even more stuff.

Also, as I said in my verifier response This run is obviously a different category than the current segmented 100% run which shouldn't be obsoleted (even how outdated it is), people are still running "true 100%", but completing 154 objectives the fastest way as possible using glitches is a legit speedrun that require so serious routing and execution and deserve to be accepted on this site whose goal is to host good quality speedrun.

[quote="Vulajin"]The SDA definition of the 100% category is as follows:

[quote]Full completion/100%: beat the game while collecting all key items or upgrades and doing everything important.[/quote]
[/quote]
[quote="moooh"]This is pretty spot on. 100% in a game usually means things like complete all missions, collect all items and characters etc. Some games provide a counter that indicates when all of these things are done. Out of convenience, the low%/100% thread refers to the game counter rather than typing out all the requirements, since the game graciously offers one and it was thought to accurately reflect when all of these tasks were done. If it turns out not to be realiable anymore (like in this case when it reports incorrectly) then I guess we'll simply have to re-word the definition to be more clear and instead say "all missions completed, all venues purchased etc. etc." so that people don't misunderstand what it's all about.[/quote]

GTA SA 100% according to the ingame counter doesn't include Unique Stunt Jumps, Burglaries, Triathlons and Girlfriends. Does that mean that if someone goes through the whole process of lossless recording, encoding then submitting a 100% run that only get 100% according to the game it will be rejected because it isn't "doing everything important"?
GTA V 100% skip even more stuff.

Also, as I said in my verifier response [i]This run is obviously a different category than the current segmented 100% run which shouldn't be obsoleted (even how outdated it is)[/i], people are still running "true 100%", but completing 154 objectives the fastest way as possible using glitches is a legit speedrun that require so serious routing and execution and deserve to be accepted on this site whose goal is to host good quality speedrun.

Onin

2014-10-26 02:03:07 pm

Quote from Gaël:

people are still running "true 100%"

So that proves this run isn't 100%, but a separate category that simply achieves the game flag for 100% without achieving actual 100% completion. That's cool, but arbitrary, and SDA doesn't generally accept arbitrary categories unless they're well defined.

Gaël

2014-10-26 02:04:49 pm

Quote from Onin:

Quote from Gaël:

people are still running "true 100%"

So that proves this run isn't 100%, but a separate category that simply achieves the game flag for 100% without achieving actual 100% completion. That's cool, but arbitrary, and SDA doesn't generally accept arbitrary categories unless they're well defined.

100% according to the stats menu is pretty well defined

TheMG2

2014-10-26 02:10:11 pm

Its not about the usage of glitches. Its about the manipulation of the counter. If one duped missions to get something later in the game, then went back and did all the missions with that thing obtained by duping, it would be allowed. That is fine by SDA rules. The problem here is duping instead of getting 100%.

I'd like to note that the one missile in metroid prime 2 can only be duped once. A fake 100% run of that game would still require serious routing and execution. It would have some pretty drastic changes though. However, according to the 100% definition, they still have to get all the unique items regardless.

By your logic, if a game had arbitrary code execution, they could just rewrite the number to 100% and done. That is not the point of including 100% runs on the site.

The point of 100% is to do all of the unique things that add to the counter.

Greenalink

2014-10-26 02:16:14 pm

DS Dictator

Quote:

100% according to the stats menu is pretty well defined

In-game 100% Major Skips
Time to play Pkmn Yellow, try out corruption glitch and get all 151 Pokémon run in sub 0:02

Gaël

2014-10-26 02:20:19 pm

rewriting the % counter to 100% using wouldn't provide the player the different 100% rewards, also I guess people don't do "fake 100%" in MP2 it's because the difference between the two runs is minimal. regarding Vice City, both runs are quite different with one 5-6 hours shorter.

Also doing 100 taxi fares is one of the "requirement for 100%" but it's possible to dupe them and only do 50 to get the %. would that be banned as well ?

TheMG2

2014-10-26 02:27:19 pm

Quote from Gaël:

rewriting the % counter to 100% using wouldn't provide the player the different 100% rewards, also I guess people don't do "fake 100%" in MP2 it's because the difference between the two runs is minimal. regarding Vice City, both runs are quite different with one 5-6 hours shorter.

That is completely wrong. "Fake 100%" would be VERY VERY VERY different in metroid prime 2. Currently in metroid prime 2, there is this missile upgrade you cannot get if you do this trick called item loss skip, which allows you to not lose certain upgrades at the beginning of the game. This includes things like space jump (double jump) and boost ball (allows you to move fast) which save time throughout the run for obvious reasons. However, you have to reload the room with the item loss trigger in order for this one missile upgrade to appear. There are no ways to do that at the moment besides going through the item loss trigger. If "fake 100%" were allowed, you would do item loss skip and dupe a missile instead of having to get the one in the room with the item loss trigger.

[quote="Gaël"]rewriting the % counter to 100% using wouldn't provide the player the different 100% rewards, also I guess people don't do "fake 100%" in MP2 it's because the difference between the two runs is minimal. regarding Vice City, both runs are quite different with one 5-6 hours shorter.
[/quote]
That is completely wrong. "Fake 100%" would be VERY VERY VERY different in metroid prime 2. Currently in metroid prime 2, there is this missile upgrade you cannot get if you do this trick called item loss skip, which allows you to not lose certain upgrades at the beginning of the game. This includes things like space jump (double jump) and boost ball (allows you to move fast) which save time throughout the run for obvious reasons. However, you have to reload the room with the item loss trigger in order for this one missile upgrade to appear. There are no ways to do that at the moment besides going through the item loss trigger. If "fake 100%" were allowed, you would do item loss skip and dupe a missile instead of having to get the one in the room with the item loss trigger.

Gaël

2014-10-26 02:31:23 pm

Quote from TheMG2:

Quote from Gaël:

rewriting the % counter to 100% using wouldn't provide the player the different 100% rewards, also I guess people don't do "fake 100%" in MP2 it's because the difference between the two runs is minimal. regarding Vice City, both runs are quite different with one 5-6 hours shorter.

That is completely wrong. "Fake 100%" would be VERY VERY VERY different in metroid prime 2. Currently in metroid prime 2, there is this missile upgrade you cannot get if you do this trick called item loss skip, which allows you to not lose certain upgrades at the beginning of the game. This includes things like space jump (double jump) and boost ball (allows you to move fast) which save time throughout the run for obvious reasons. However, you have to reload the room with the item loss trigger in order for this one missile upgrade to appear. There are no ways to do that at the moment besides going through the item loss trigger. If "fake 100%" were allowed, you would do item loss skip and dupe a missile instead of having to get the one in the room with the item loss trigger.

i stand corrected, but it sounds like an interesting run someone should do one. Roll Eyes

[quote="TheMG2"][quote="Gaël"]rewriting the % counter to 100% using wouldn't provide the player the different 100% rewards, also I guess people don't do "fake 100%" in MP2 it's because the difference between the two runs is minimal. regarding Vice City, both runs are quite different with one 5-6 hours shorter.
[/quote]
That is completely wrong. "Fake 100%" would be VERY VERY VERY different in metroid prime 2. Currently in metroid prime 2, there is this missile upgrade you cannot get if you do this trick called item loss skip, which allows you to not lose certain upgrades at the beginning of the game. This includes things like space jump (double jump) and boost ball (allows you to move fast) which save time throughout the run for obvious reasons. However, you have to reload the room with the item loss trigger in order for this one missile upgrade to appear. There are no ways to do that at the moment besides going through the item loss trigger. If "fake 100%" were allowed, you would do item loss skip and dupe a missile instead of having to get the one in the room with the item loss trigger.[/quote]

i stand corrected, but it sounds like an interesting run someone should do one. ::)

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2014-10-26 02:52:10 pm

TheMG2: 2014-10-26 02:45:52 pm

2014-10-26 02:33:44 pm

There are very good reasons that they shouldn't be done. Item loss skip could be done in true 100% if a way oob in that certain room was found. By allowing it, you're discouraging searching for that oob.
EDIT: If sda was about including all runs that are "interesting" or "different from each other" or "skillful" then what's stopping me from submitting runs of 50 arbitrary categories and filling up their backlog for no real reason.
EDIT2: This run isn't "100%". Its "make a counter read 100% and get the reward you normally get for 100%". That is the problem here.

Onin

2014-10-26 02:53:25 pm

I would argue that this duped 100% is in the same boat at All Missions%, or even 100 Packages. An arbitrary selection of goals to achieve 100% of, as opposed to completing the entire game fully. Both of those are cool runs with plenty routing and competition. SDA wouldn't accept them.

presjpolk

2014-10-26 04:15:39 pm

HELLO!

Seems clear to me that in-game percentage should be used by SDA only as long as it's accurate, in the same way in-game timers are only used as long as they are accurate.

AdamAK

2014-10-26 04:19:29 pm

Totally rad

Quote from presjpolk:

Seems clear to me that in-game percentage should be used by SDA only as long as it's accurate, in the same way in-game timers are only used as long as they are accurate.

This statement seems so insanely ironic. I'm loving it!

TheMG2

2014-10-26 04:28:23 pm

Presj's statement is an oversimplification.

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-26 04:34:21 pm

Not a walrus

We are also not having that argument again.