Grand Theft Auto: Vice City - October 26, 2014

2014-10-26 06:45:22 pm

Quote from Gaël:

GTA SA 100% according to the ingame counter doesn't include Unique Stunt Jumps, Burglaries, Triathlons and Girlfriends. Does that mean that if someone goes through the whole process of lossless recording, encoding then submitting a 100% run that only get 100% according to the game it will be rejected because it isn't "doing everything important"?
GTA V 100% skip even more stuff.

According to the logic presented (in-game counters used if accurate, ignored if not) the run would be fine, assuming it does all the things that normally count towards the percentage. This would go for any game, including SA and V.

On the matter as a whole though, I agree that duping to 100% is questionable and am inclined to say that for Vice City this wouldn't justify a new category on the game page. Though in a more general sense I could definitely justify "fake" 100% runs making it in on a game-by-game basis, I don't think many games would be able to justify the category as more than just something fun to do for a change (read: arbitrary).

For the record, I know Vice City quite well but didn't offer to verify this run because I haven't kept up with developments in speedrunning the game and expected quite a few people who had to offer. I probably should have, but that's water under the bridge.

[quote="Gaël"]GTA SA 100% according to the ingame counter doesn't include Unique Stunt Jumps, Burglaries, Triathlons and Girlfriends. Does that mean that if someone goes through the whole process of lossless recording, encoding then submitting a 100% run that only get 100% according to the game it will be rejected because it isn't "doing everything important"?
GTA V 100% skip even more stuff.[/quote]
According to the logic presented (in-game counters used if accurate, ignored if not) the run would be fine, assuming it does all the things that normally count towards the percentage.  This would go for any game, including SA and V.

On the matter as a whole though, I agree that duping to 100% is questionable and am inclined to say that for Vice City this wouldn't justify a new category on the game page.  Though in a more general sense I could definitely justify "fake" 100% runs making it in on a game-by-game basis, I don't think many games would be able to justify the category as more than just something fun to do for a change (read: arbitrary).

For the record, I know Vice City quite well but didn't offer to verify this run because I haven't kept up with developments in speedrunning the game and expected quite a few people who had to offer.  I probably should have, but that's water under the bridge.

Paperboat

Edit history:

Paperboat: 2014-10-27 05:34:24 am

2014-10-27 05:33:08 am

XCOM Timesheet: http://goo.gl/BWDqbC

@Onin
SDA has accepted an all main missions run, and relatively recently at that. See http://speeddemosarchive.com/ElderScrolls4.html

Worn_Traveler

2014-10-27 06:34:05 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

Quote from Paperboat:

@Onin
SDA has accepted an all main missions run, and relatively recently at that. See http://speeddemosarchive.com/ElderScrolls4.html

With all respect, that Oblivion run is pretty much Any% with no major skips though, at least that's what I got from reading the notes. In the case of GTA: VC, the related category is an any% that beats the game without duping and only does required missions plus the required number of assets. VC has a lot of missions that the game doesn't require for beating (Avery, Haitians and Cubans, etc). A GTA: VC All Missions run would fall between Any% and 100%.

Onin

2014-10-27 06:45:19 am

Quote from Paperboat:

@Onin
SDA has accepted an all main missions run, and relatively recently at that. See http://speeddemosarchive.com/ElderScrolls4.html

Yeah that's not at all related to AllMissions%.

AdamAK

2014-10-27 12:41:36 pm

Totally rad

So given the fact that there is a split between Any% and Any% (no major skips), why is there not also simply a split between 100% and 100% (no major skips)?
Community seems to accept the submitted 100% run, while also acknowledging the non-duping category.
If you think the submitted run is invalid, then why is the distinction somehow valid for any%?

Worn_Traveler

2014-10-27 12:51:57 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

I don't think we've ran into this before as far as a GTA game is concerned. I haven't been active in GTA verification since last year but I think two types of 100% could work here without opening the door to category bloat.

Regardless of the decision, I am glad there is productive talk coming from this.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2014-10-27 01:47:19 pm

TheMG2: 2014-10-27 01:47:18 pm

2014-10-27 01:46:43 pm

It isn't a matter of 100% and 100% (no major skips). SDA would accept a run that does duping and does major skips if it went back and did the normal requirements of 100% later on. For example, it was said the reward of getting 100% was infinite ammo, extra health and armor, and 3 bodyguards. Under SDA's ruleset, if it was faster to do a mission with those rewards, then one could dupe missions until they get the rewards, and then go back and do the missions that were skipped with the rewards if it is possible. Unless such a run is considered boring.

SDA doesn't consider this run 100%. SDA considers this run to be "unlock the 100% rewards". Not 100%. That is the problem here.

Worn_Traveler

2014-10-27 01:55:22 pm

Formerly known as Skullboy

Would it be faster to dupe up to 100% and then do everything instead of just doing non-duped 100%? Also, how early in VC can the duping be consistently done?

AdamAK

2014-10-27 02:25:50 pm

Totally rad

Quote from TheMG2:

-snip-
SDA doesn't consider this run 100%. SDA considers this run to be "unlock the 100% rewards". Not 100%. That is the problem here.

The flaw with this argumentation is that once you obtain 100% using whatever means, anything that is left does not contribute to the counter (also not beyond 100%), so why would it be part of 100%? The previously cited examples of San Andreas and GTA V amplify this, as those games have quite a lot of content that is considered irrelevant to 100% runs (e.g., stunt jumps in San Andreas). If the in-game counter is not used as a reference for how much has been completed within the game, then every game out there (not just GTAs) will need a redefinition of what constitutes 100%, which comes with a whole lot of ambiguity.

Quote from TheMG2:

It isn't a matter of 100% and 100% (no major skips).

Skipping the majority of content in the game using a single strategy doesn't count as a "major skip"? I'd say it does. Even if you want to call it "no duping" instead, in practice it's identical to a major skip.

I should point out that the known GTA speedrunning community has raised no objections towards this being a valid 100% run (though not directly competing with the dupeless run).

[quote="TheMG2"]-snip-
SDA doesn't consider this run 100%. SDA considers this run to be "unlock the 100% rewards". Not 100%. That is the problem here.[/quote]

The flaw with this argumentation is that once you obtain 100% using whatever means, anything that is left does not contribute to the counter (also not beyond 100%), so why would it be part of 100%? The previously cited examples of San Andreas and GTA V amplify this, as those games have quite a lot of content that is considered irrelevant to 100% runs (e.g., stunt jumps in San Andreas). If the in-game counter is not used as a reference for how much has been completed within the game, then every game out there (not just GTAs) will need a redefinition of what constitutes 100%, which comes with a whole lot of ambiguity.

[quote="TheMG2"]It isn't a matter of 100% and 100% (no major skips).[/quote]

Skipping the majority of content in the game using a single strategy doesn't count as a "major skip"? I'd say it does. Even if you want to call it "no duping" instead, in practice it's identical to a major skip.

I should point out that the known GTA speedrunning community has raised no objections towards this being a valid 100% run (though not directly competing with the dupeless run).

TheMG2

2014-10-27 02:27:49 pm

What about the rest of my post?

AdamAK

2014-10-27 02:33:49 pm

Totally rad

It's being said by a minority that the submitted run is against (1) the game's definition of 100%; (2) the community's definition of 100%. It's against neither one of those.
What's this "SDA" you speak of and where has it said that it doesn't consider the run to be 100%, by the way? Mod != SDA.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-10-27 02:42:36 pm

2014-10-27 02:42:23 pm

<(^_^)>

Was there discussion about this during verification? Because from these posts i just read, and the fact that the verifier posts didn't mention the legitimacy of this category (one did mention that it's different from what's currently up), it sounds like there wasn't really much discussion and the mods just made this decision independently... I would hope that they or the verifiers would at least get involved with the GTA community and talk to active runners about it? I could be wrong though

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2014-10-27 02:51:08 pm

2014-10-27 02:44:04 pm

1. You still ignored the rest of my post.
2. It's how sda has treated "100%" runs that involve duping before.
3. Its how other communities with duping have also treated 100%.
EDIT: 4. How do you know that the two 100% categories will stay different? Say if it actually became slower to dupe.

AdamAK

2014-10-27 02:49:38 pm

Totally rad

Quote from TheMG2:

1. You still ignored the rest of my post.

No I didn't I've referred to that content plenty of times. If you read my post again, you'll see that I mentioned that going back to other missions does not contribute to the 100% counter, and is such irrelevant to 100% runs.

Quote:

2. It's how sda has treated "100%" runs that involve duping before.

The past is not infallible. OOB used to be banned on SDA, but that got changed. DOSbox used to be banned, but that got changed. Virtualisation used to be banned, but it isn't now.

Quote:

3. Its how other communities with duping have also treated 100%.

Good thing we're talking about GTA here, and not about a game from other communities. Other communities' definitions can act as suggestions, but should not be used as an extension to GTA. 100% definitions need not be identical across communities if the communities decide on different definitions.

mike89

2014-10-27 03:05:34 pm

SEGA Junkie

I feel like a broken record here but the answer for all parties here is clearly to use community definitions for categories. If 100% game counter and 100% without dupes are considered separate by GTA players at large, then that's what we should go with. This isn't hard.

TheMG2

2014-10-27 03:10:09 pm

Then you'll run into questions such as "Why is it allowed in game x but not game y?" where game x's community allows manipulation of the percentage counter as 100% and game y does not. And if somebody has submitted a run which goes against game y's definition. Then if the members of the community who defined it as without manipulation aren't around.

What if the community wants to go back and get rid of this category? This is a relatively new glitch after all. Things can change very quickly to the point where this category is no longer interesting, especially when duping gets involved. The last time I remember a community getting rid of a category, it did not go well.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2014-10-27 03:12:10 pm

AlecK47: 2014-10-27 03:11:08 pm

2014-10-27 03:10:14 pm

If a game tracks completion percentage, then that in-game tracking is a simple and logical way to define full completion (usually, but not always 100%). Should the game's tracker prove inaccurate or manipulable it's only natural to reevaluate the category. It sounds to me that the GTA community has gone over the matter, resulting in 100% runs with and without "major skips." If I'm wrong in this regard, please correct me.

The thing is that just because a specific category is tracked and run doesn't mean it is or should be one of the "main" categories for the game. I believe that OoT, for example, the old RBA run is still tracked and run, but is not considered a main category either by the game's community or by SDA because of the WW route. Granted, the issue with this VC run is not exactly the same, but the question of whether the category should be considered a main showcase for speedrunning the game is currently in question.

Mike posted just as I finished the previous paragraph, and he basically said what I was about to say here. If the community wants this to be a legit category, then that's fine. I may not entirely agree, but I'm not part of the GTA community and my opinion isn't a very strong one on this matter anyway. If category bloat becomes an issue, that can be addressed at that time.

Should some more GTA community voices chime in, it would probably be for the best though, just so that nobody accuses one or two people for speaking for the community as a whole.

Edit: MG, which game and category are you referring to where removal caused drama? I'm curious.

If a game tracks completion percentage, then that in-game tracking is a simple and logical way to define full completion (usually, but not always 100%).  Should the game's tracker prove inaccurate or manipulable it's only natural to reevaluate the category.  It sounds to me that the GTA community has gone over the matter, resulting in 100% runs with and without "major skips."  If I'm wrong in this regard, please correct me.

The thing is that just because a specific category is tracked and run doesn't mean it is or should be one of the "main" categories for the game.  I believe that OoT, for example, the old RBA run is still tracked and run, but is not considered a main category either by the game's community or by SDA because of the WW route.  Granted, the issue with this VC run is not exactly the same, but the question of whether the category should be considered a main showcase for speedrunning the game is currently in question.

Mike posted just as I finished the previous paragraph, and he basically said what I was about to say here.  If the community wants this to be a legit category, then that's fine.  I may not entirely agree, but I'm not part of the GTA community and my opinion isn't a very strong one on this matter anyway.  If category bloat becomes an issue, that can be addressed at that time.

Should some more GTA community voices chime in, it would probably be for the best though, just so that nobody accuses one or two people for speaking for the community as a whole.

Edit: MG, which game and category are you referring to where removal caused drama?  I'm curious.

TheMG2

2014-10-27 03:11:33 pm

Metroid Prime. The distinction between oob and no oob.

AlecK47

2014-10-27 03:14:47 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that a long time ago, when the speedrunning community as a whole was grappling with issues like OoB, glitches, save warps, etc?

Not trying to completely brush off your point, but things have changed quite a bit since then and I don't think the issues are that comparable.

Plus, technically the RBA route in OoT will be removed from SDA when Cosmo's run is posted, and if there's any drama over that I haven't heard of it.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2014-10-27 03:19:57 pm

2014-10-27 03:17:16 pm

OOT community actually has any% no ww listed on zeldaspeedruns. Which would be the rba route.

And yeah, I was talking 4 years or so ago, but who's to say it won't change 4 years from now when the community is completely different.

EDIT: Hardly anybody takes any% no ww seriously though.

AlecK47

2014-10-27 03:21:38 pm

Quote from TheMG2:

Hardly anybody takes any% no ww seriously though.

Exactly my point: it's tracked, but the community doesn't really give it any weight.

Quote from TheMG2:

And yeah, I was talking 4 years or so ago, but who's to say it won't change 4 years from now when the community is completely different.

Very true, but I'm personally not a fan of going too far out of the way to avoid problems that may never materialize anyway.

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 03:28:32 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from mike89:

I feel like a broken record here but the answer for all parties here is clearly to use community definitions for categories. If 100% game counter and 100% without dupes are considered separate by GTA players at large, then that's what we should go with. This isn't hard.

Counterpoint: The Super Metroid community tracks RBO (not sure when the last time somebody put any serious work into that was, but the point still stands) but SDA doesn't accept runs on that category either.

LLCoolDave

2014-10-27 03:29:21 pm

First of all, AdamAK, the rejection of this run has been an unanimous decision by staff and is not a rogue decision by a "Mod". Regardless of the category discussion we are having right now there is still the issue of the submitted run not actually beating the game at any point. The act of achieving an ending is, to us, an immutable aspect of a speedrun and is thus required of all submissions to SDA. This is usually not a point of discussion as this marks the end point of the run for most categories, but there are some 100% runs that beat the game and then continue playing to fulfill the remaining requirements for 100%, at which point timing ends. In any case, all of these runs still beat the game in one way or another as part of the run.

As the discussion on whether or not this "mission duping 100%" category should be accepted on SDA does not pertain to our decision to reject the run for not beating the game, we felt it unnecessary to have this discussion behind closed doors before posting this rejection and having a public debate.

Categorization at SDA is inclusive in nature, it is based off the goals achieved in the run or the tricks used in it (in the case of large skips). The idea of a 100% run is one that achieves "full completion" of a game based on a sensible metric. The exact list of subgoals that need to be completed is usually community defined where a game itself does not provide a meaningful definition. What holds true in any case is that the actual completion these subgoals is what classifies a particular run as 100% at SDA.

In some cases, glitches have been discovered that trick the game counter of some of these subgoals to think it has been accomplished when it, in reality, has not. As mentioned previously, Metroid Prime 2 allows the player to pick up the same missile expansion twice (which gets added to the % counter in the game), and OoT allows duplication of gold skulltulas. In cases like this, the sensible solution (and the one SDA has been taking in the past) is to redefine full completion (i.e. 100% as a category) for these games to involve completing the subgoals as set out by the game instead of relying on the game internal counter of those subgoals. Thus 100% in OoT doesn't involve getting 100 gold skulltulas but rather collecting all 100 unique gold skulltula pickups. Given the findings of this glitch, the same is now necessary for GTA: VC.

As such, it is clear to us (and the GTA VC community as well), that this category is distinct from full completion (100% in SDA terms). It is to us, as SDA staff, also evident that this category is not a 100% category in line with our policies. The most concise description of what this run actually accomplishes is "Unlocks 100% completion rewards". Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories. For instance, this particular run does not get the rewards for completing ambulance or delivery, it doesn't even purchase all assets etc. The actual goal of this category, to us at least, feels like it doesn't warrant a place on SDA. This does not mean that we think that the category is bad, uncompetitive, uninteresting or not hard to route. It just means that it doesn't fall within the range of categories we wish to recognize at SDA and we have yet to see an argument to sway as in a different direction.

First of all, AdamAK, the rejection of this run has been an unanimous decision by staff and is not a rogue decision by a "Mod". Regardless of the category discussion we are having right now there is still the issue of the submitted run not actually beating the game at any point. The act of achieving an ending is, to us, an immutable aspect of a speedrun and is thus required of all submissions to SDA. This is usually not a point of discussion as this marks the end point of the run for most categories, but there are some 100% runs that beat the game and then continue playing to fulfill the remaining requirements for 100%, at which point timing ends. In any case, all of these runs still beat the game in one way or another as part of the run.

As the discussion on whether or not this "mission duping 100%" category should be accepted on SDA does not pertain to our decision to reject the run for not beating the game, we felt it unnecessary to have this discussion behind closed doors before posting this rejection and having a public debate.

Categorization at SDA is inclusive in nature, it is based off the goals achieved in the run or the tricks used in it (in the case of large skips). The idea of a 100% run is one that achieves "full completion" of a game based on a sensible metric. The exact list of subgoals that need to be completed is usually community defined where a game itself does not provide a meaningful definition. What holds true in any case is that the actual completion these subgoals is what classifies a particular run as 100% at SDA.

In some cases, glitches have been discovered that trick the game counter of some of these subgoals to think it has been accomplished when it, in reality, has not. As mentioned previously, Metroid Prime 2 allows the player to pick up the same missile expansion twice (which gets added to the % counter in the game), and OoT allows duplication of gold skulltulas. In cases like this, the sensible solution (and the one SDA has been taking in the past) is to redefine full completion (i.e. 100% as a category) for these games to involve completing the subgoals as set out by the game instead of relying on the game internal counter of those subgoals. Thus 100% in OoT doesn't involve getting 100 gold skulltulas but rather collecting all 100 unique gold skulltula pickups. Given the findings of this glitch, the same is now necessary for GTA: VC.

As such, it is clear to us (and the GTA VC community as well), that this category is distinct from full completion (100% in SDA terms). It is to us, as SDA staff, also evident that this category is not a 100% category in line with our policies. The most concise description of what this run actually accomplishes is "Unlocks 100% completion rewards". Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories. For instance, this particular run does not get the rewards for completing ambulance or delivery, it doesn't even purchase all assets etc. The actual goal of this category, to us at least, feels like it doesn't warrant a place on SDA. This does not mean that we think that the category is bad, uncompetitive, uninteresting or not hard to route. It just means that it doesn't fall within the range of categories we wish to recognize at SDA and we have yet to see an argument to sway as in a different direction.

AdamAK

2014-10-27 03:50:39 pm

Totally rad

Quote from LLCoolDave:

First of all, AdamAK, the rejection of this run has been an unanimous decision by staff and is not a rogue decision by a "Mod".

Not sure why this is directed at me. My understanding is that SDA is community driven rather than just mods, in case you thought I meant something else.

Quote:

Categorization at SDA is inclusive in nature, it is based off the goals achieved in the run or the tricks used in it (in the case of large skips). The idea of a 100% run is one that achieves "full completion" of a game based on a sensible metric. The exact list of subgoals that need to be completed is usually community defined where a game itself does not provide a meaningful definition. What holds true in any case is that the actual completion these subgoals is what classifies a particular run as 100% at SDA.

But dropping the metric that has been deemed sensible for a long time has major implications for other runs (e.g., San Andreas and GTA V, but probably also other series). That's the issue with just dropping it and rejecting it here. Goes well beyond the submitted run.

Quote:

Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories.

This is quite inconsistent with pages such as http://speeddemosarchive.com/Mario64.html or, very ironically, even Metroid Prime, which tracks the best time for escaping the frigate. If that's not arbitrary, then I don't see how Vice City's duped 100% is.

Quote:

For instance, this particular run does not get the rewards for completing ambulance or delivery, it doesn't even purchase all assets etc.

Much like, once again, San Andreas does not complete unique jumps, but that 100% definition is perfectly fine.

In summary:
(1) Rejecting Vice City on the basis that the category is arbitrary makes me question your definition of arbitrariness.
(2) For the rejection to be well-founded, it requires a redefinition of what constitutes 100% in not only Vice City but also other games. Since the actual running community has already decided on the categories, I really don't see why SDA is splitting off from this definition or what the foundation is for trying to supersede the community definitions - especially since not a single staff member on SDA's side is involved in the GTA speedrunning community in any way.

[quote="LLCoolDave"]First of all, AdamAK, the rejection of this run has been an unanimous decision by staff and is not a rogue decision by a "Mod".[/quote]

Not sure why this is directed at me. My understanding is that SDA is community driven rather than just mods, in case you thought I meant something else.

[quote]Categorization at SDA is inclusive in nature, it is based off the goals achieved in the run or the tricks used in it (in the case of large skips). The idea of a 100% run is one that achieves "full completion" of a game based on a sensible metric. The exact list of subgoals that need to be completed is usually community defined where a game itself does not provide a meaningful definition. What holds true in any case is that the actual completion these subgoals is what classifies a particular run as 100% at SDA.[/quote]

But dropping the metric that has been deemed sensible for a long time has major implications for other runs (e.g., San Andreas and GTA V, but probably also other series). That's the issue with just dropping it and rejecting it here. Goes well beyond the submitted run.

[quote]Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories.[/quote]

This is quite inconsistent with pages such as http://speeddemosarchive.com/Mario64.html or, very ironically, even Metroid Prime, which tracks the best time for escaping the frigate. If that's not arbitrary, then I don't see how Vice City's duped 100% is.

[quote]For instance, this particular run does not get the rewards for completing ambulance or delivery, it doesn't even purchase all assets etc.[/quote]

Much like, once again, San Andreas does not complete unique jumps, but that 100% definition is perfectly fine.

In summary:
(1) Rejecting Vice City on the basis that the category is arbitrary makes me question your definition of arbitrariness.
(2) For the rejection to be well-founded, it requires a redefinition of what constitutes 100% in not only Vice City but also other games. Since the actual running community has already decided on the categories, I really don't see why SDA is splitting off from this definition or what the foundation is for trying to supersede the community definitions - especially since not a single staff member on SDA's side is involved in the GTA speedrunning community in any way.

Gaël

Edit history:

Gaël: 2014-10-27 03:58:24 pm

2014-10-27 03:58:02 pm

Quote from LLCoolDave:

First of all, AdamAK, the rejection of this run has been an unanimous decision by staff and is not a rogue decision by a "Mod".

Why wasn't it part of the private verifiers' thread ?

Quote from LLCoolDave:

Regardless of the category discussion we are having right now there is still the issue of the submitted run not actually beating the game at any point. The act of achieving an ending is, to us, an immutable aspect of a speedrun and is thus required of all submissions to SDA. This is usually not a point of discussion as this marks the end point of the run for most categories, but there are some 100% runs that beat the game and then continue playing to fulfill the remaining requirements for 100%, at which point timing ends. In any case, all of these runs still beat the game in one way or another as part of the run.

As the discussion on whether or not this "mission duping 100%" category should be accepted on SDA does not pertain to our decision to reject the run for not beating the game, we felt it unnecessary to have this discussion behind closed doors before posting this rejection and having a public debate.

I don't buy the "does not beat the game" argument, most people will agree that "credits warp" runs don't beat the game either, and I know of at least 1 (pokemon) "credits warp" run being accepted on SDA, and probably many others in the future.

Quote from LLCoolDave:

Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories. For instance, this particular run does not get the rewards for completing ambulance or delivery, it doesn't even purchase all assets etc. The actual goal of this category, to us at least, feels like it doesn't warrant a place on SDA.

There's 3 Any% categories on SDA for Crash Bandicoot 2, at least one of them (no GO Abuse) is really arbitrary.
The recent Chrono Trigger "100%" run from earlier this year was quite arbitrary (it was rejected, but only because of the watermark on the video, nobody discuss the actual category), it only does all sidequests but skip most of the bosses, it doesn't leave a feeling of "full completion".
Also, as I said on a previous post, GTA San Andreas percentage counter (which is, as of now, accurate) doesn't include the Burglary mission, which unlock the infinite sprint reward (same reward than Vice City Paramedics mission) should the SDA definition for San Andreas 100% be redefined as well ?

[quote="LLCoolDave"]First of all, AdamAK, the rejection of this run has been an unanimous decision by staff and is not a rogue decision by a "Mod".[/quote]
Why wasn't it part of the private verifiers' thread ?

[quote="LLCoolDave"]Regardless of the category discussion we are having right now there is still the issue of the submitted run not actually beating the game at any point. The act of achieving an ending is, to us, an immutable aspect of a speedrun and is thus required of all submissions to SDA. This is usually not a point of discussion as this marks the end point of the run for most categories, but there are some 100% runs that beat the game and then continue playing to fulfill the remaining requirements for 100%, at which point timing ends. In any case, all of these runs still beat the game in one way or another as part of the run.

As the discussion on whether or not this "mission duping 100%" category should be accepted on SDA does not pertain to our decision to reject the run for not beating the game, we felt it unnecessary to have this discussion behind closed doors before posting this rejection and having a public debate.[/quote]
I don't buy the "does not beat the game" argument, most people will agree that "credits warp" runs don't beat the game either, and I know of at least 1 (pokemon) "credits warp" run being accepted on SDA, and probably many others in the future.

[quote="LLCoolDave"]Our concern with this is that it is a rather arbitrary goal, and SDA frowns on arbitrary categories. For instance, this particular run does not get the rewards for completing ambulance or delivery, it doesn't even purchase all assets etc. The actual goal of this category, to us at least, feels like it doesn't warrant a place on SDA.[/quote]
There's 3 Any% categories on SDA for Crash Bandicoot 2, at least one of them (no GO Abuse) is really arbitrary.
The recent Chrono Trigger "100%" run from earlier this year was quite arbitrary (it was rejected, but only because of the watermark on the video, nobody discuss the actual category), it only does all sidequests but skip most of the bosses, it doesn't leave a feeling of "full completion".
Also, as I said on a previous post, GTA San Andreas percentage counter (which is, as of now, accurate) doesn't include the Burglary mission, which unlock the infinite sprint reward (same reward than Vice City Paramedics mission) should the SDA definition for San Andreas 100% be redefined as well ?