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Except it's not because it didn't beat the game.

Do you seriously need it spelled out to you?
How do you decide when an any% run ends?
.
Final cutscene and credits sequence, usually.
I wasn't asking you I was asking adam
Quote from AdamAK:
If the goal of the run is 100% and Mother Brain isn't part of its definition, then the run you just described certainly did reach 100% and is valid as such.


Sure, it would be a valid run in the category "Gets 100% item collection" if such a thing existed in the metroid community. It would not be accepted to SDA for not completing the game and/or having an arbitrary goal.
Quote from AdamAK:
Quote:
and has hardly anything to do with SDA any more.

Eidgod has submitted various runs to SDA recently - including this one. And for your information, one of the first things we had a lengthy discussion about once the duping glitch was found were the implications for 100%.


When CannibalK9's record can stand here for six years before a single runner submits an obsoleting run, I think it's fair to say the GTA community has mostly moved on from SDA. These implications and "what is defined by the actual running community" don't seem to have made it to your own community driven leaderboard or else it would have been submitted there. If your own rules changed sensibly to accommodate the glitch, then you shouldn't be surprised when SDA's do as well. If I may be cynical, it seems to me that this is really a troll run that the GTA community thought they could get accepted to SDA by having verifiers in on the joke. I hope that's not the case, because it would be pretty disrespectful.
Not a walrus
Quote from AdamAK:
Wasn't there an RPG example a few pages back that excluded certain bosses from 100% because of skips?


If you're going to cite something from an hour ago it would be helpful that you actually remembered it properly. Bosses were never and still aren't a requirement of 100% Chrono Trigger. Finishing all of the End of Time side quests, whether those involve boss fights or not, is "100%". It's like saying that Super Metroid 100% isn't really 100% because you didn't kill Spore Spawn.
Edit history:
Onin: 2014-10-27 07:02:02 pm
Before I disassociate myself from this downward spiral, allow me to quote the following category descriptor from Speedrun.com. You know, the leaderboards moderated by the GTA speedrunners themselves.
Quote:
Timer starts when you gain control over Tommy Vercetti and ends when you complete everything in the game that counts towards game completion.

Complete everything. Not attain 100% on the stats page.
Totally rad
Quote from ShadowWraith:
Quote from AdamAK:
This would involve letting Tommy die, which would teleport you to the nearest hospital. You could then proceed to do Paramedic as the last part of the 100% run, since you'd be incredibly close to an ambulance.


Interesting route. This saves time over skipping Paramedic up to this point and missing out on infinite sprint?


You can sprint infinitely by tapping the sprint button instead of holding it down. Paramedic is useless for speedrunning purposes.

Quote from Onin:
Except it's not because it didn't beat the game.

Do you seriously need it spelled out to you?


Onin, go grab a dictionary and figure out what "definition" means. Then come back to me. Until then, I'm just talking to a brick wall here.

Quote from TheMG2:
How do you decide when an any% run ends?

Any% for Vice City is defined as reaching the credits (not beating the final mission!). Can use whatever means the game lets us use (including mission skips). If you have a look at AGDQ this year, you'll even see the run pop up there.

For 100%, you can reach the credits early on, if you choose to do so. They're not particularly important themselves.

Quote from LLCoolDave:
Quote from AdamAK:
If the goal of the run is 100% and Mother Brain isn't part of its definition, then the run you just described certainly did reach 100% and is valid as such.


Sure, it would be a valid run in the category "Gets 100% item collection" if such a thing existed in the metroid community. It would not be accepted to SDA for not completing the game and/or having an arbitrary goal.


Sure, I doubt such a category exists in the Metroid community (since it would be a dumb run). The SDA definition for Vice City never said anything about "beating the game". It's just game defined 100%, which clearly means getting 100% on the stats menu. This was done in the run. The SDA definition doesn't say anything other than that it's necessary to get 100% according to the game stats.

Quote from erdamus:
-snip-

As baffling as it may seem, not many runs were submitted because they were continuously being improved! I can recount a whole bunch of GTA3 any% runs I was almost ready to submit to SDA, but I always decided to push it down a bit further before truly submitting a run. Growing community -> More improvements -> Takes longer to get a submission done. Doesn't help that the posting process is so slow that by the time a run gets uploaded, it's already outdated (e.g., Eidgod's Vice City any% run)

Quote from UraniumAnchor:
If you're going to cite something from an hour ago it would be helpful that you actually remembered it properly. Bosses were never and still aren't a requirement of 100% Chrono Trigger. Finishing all of the End of Time side quests, whether those involve boss fights or not, is "100%". It's like saying that Super Metroid 100% isn't really 100% because you didn't kill Spore Spawn.


So 100% doesn't include all clearing all content, because some content wasn't part of the definition. Thank you for proving my point. Glad we agree on this one.

Quote from Onin:
-snip-

Have you noticed how that's very different from SDA's definition, which only mentions the stats menu?
Edit history:
UraniumAnchor: 2014-10-27 07:08:41 pm
Not a walrus
Quote from AdamAK:
Quote from UraniumAnchor:
If you're going to cite something from an hour ago it would be helpful that you actually remembered it properly. Bosses were never and still aren't a requirement of 100% Chrono Trigger. Finishing all of the End of Time side quests, whether those involve boss fights or not, is "100%". It's like saying that Super Metroid 100% isn't really 100% because you didn't kill Spore Spawn.


So 100% doesn't include all clearing all content, because some content wasn't part of the definition. Thank you for proving my point. Glad we agree on this one.


Good, then you can stop complaining about this one not being a category we'd accept.

We have new information about how the game works now, so clearly that definition is in need of an update. Probably to the one Onin just posted.
Edit history:
AdamAK: 2014-10-27 07:10:10 pm
Totally rad
Quote from UraniumAnchor:
Good, then you can stop complaining about this one not being a category we'd accept.


Quote:
The SDA definition doesn't say anything other than that it's necessary to get 100% according to the game stats.


Should I change the font size to 180?

Fix the existing definition and it's the end of the discussion. It's as simple as that.

Quote:
We have new information about how the game works now, so clearly that definition is in need of an update. Probably to the one Onin just posted.


Hurray! Now the only thing left is to make sure other 100% definitions are actually sound (so that this discussion doesn't pop up again in the future).
Edit history:
TheMG2: 2014-10-27 07:09:47 pm
Then why try to get this run accepted?

EDIT: Rather than asking to have the definition fixed.
Edit history:
ShadowWraith: 2014-10-27 07:17:50 pm
ShadowWraith: 2014-10-27 07:17:48 pm
ShadowWraith: 2014-10-27 07:15:19 pm
.
Quote from AdamAK:
You can sprint infinitely by tapping the sprint button instead of holding it down. Paramedic is useless for speedrunning purposes.


Right. Doing this leaves the final mission in a state of non-completion (i.e you can go start it again) while incrementing the mission completion counter, correct?
e: i mean dying after 'beating' the final mission to warp to a hospital. not repeatedly tapping sprint to go fast.

Quote from AdamAK:
Sure, I doubt such a category exists in the Metroid community (since it would be a dumb run). The SDA definition for Vice City never said anything about "beating the game". It's just game defined 100%, which clearly means getting 100% on the stats menu. This was done in the run. The SDA definition doesn't say anything other than that it's necessary to get 100% according to the game stats.


This just tells me that our definition for 100% for this game is outdated based on new discoveries, and should be changed to fit them, not that we should accept this run because the definition doesn't take into account the existance of this glitch, as doing so would break the precedent set previously for 100% runs.
Not a walrus
Quote from AdamAK:
Hurray! Now the only thing left is to make sure other 100% definitions are actually sound (so that this discussion doesn't pop up again in the future).


If you know of any more that need updating then I'm certainly willing to go fix them.

So are we in agreement here that the issue was that the run was submitted without ensuring that something that wildly changes the run was still something we'd accept? I don't recall any discussion (but I don't follow the GTA threads) or any of the admins giving an answer. As far as I know moooh was the first one to notice the odd category and bring it up with the rest of the staff.
Quote from TheMG2:
Can you link to any discussions about that timing?

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/gta_san_andreas_100_completion_speed_run_quality_test.html

Turns out there wasn't discussion at all and the runner blindly followed the rules (Which were told to him by someone else).

Still though, my point stands because the timing doesn't follow the proposed definition of 'do all the stuff that will reward you with %'.
Quote from Onin:
The run got rejected because it didn't beat the game. All it did was achieve 100% completion. It's the equivalent of gathering all missile upgrades, bomb packs and energy packs, then cutting the run there without ever seeing Mother Brain because eh, 100% achieved.


Eidgod could easily reroute this run to complete the mission called "Keep Your Friend Close" that most people consider being the last mission, and both beat the game and get 100% under 3h (real time), if he submit a run like that it'll probably get rejected as well.

Quote from ShadowWraith:
Quote from AdamAK:
This would involve letting Tommy die, which would teleport you to the nearest hospital. You could then proceed to do Paramedic as the last part of the 100% run, since you'd be incredibly close to an ambulance.


Interesting route. This saves time over skipping Paramedic up to this point and missing out on infinite sprint?


the infinite sprint reward is useless in VC, because the sprinting mechanic is glitched
Quote from S.:
Quote from TheMG2:
Can you link to any discussions about that timing?

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/gta_san_andreas_100_completion_speed_run_quality_test.html

Turns out there wasn't discussion at all and the runner blindly followed the rules (Which were told to him by someone else).

Still though, my point stands because the timing doesn't follow the proposed definition of 'do all the stuff that will reward you with %'.

You know... if they had talked to staff about this... maybe they would listen? Rather than expecting SDA to just KNOW everything?
Edit history:
LLCoolDave: 2014-10-27 07:26:16 pm
Quote from AdamAK:
Have you noticed how that's very different from SDA's definition, which only mentions the stats menu?


This is some amusing pedantics, because the SDA definition you refer to does not actually mention the stat menu. It simply states that the requirements for 100% on SDA are as defined within the game. Before this glitch was discovered, the overtly pedantic reading, the intended reading and the sensible reading of that definition all coincided. Now that mission duping has been found to affect the in game stat counter, we all agree that the definition should be specified to properly read what was intended all along. It seems rather odd to bring this up by submitting a run that does not fulfill those.

Quote from Gaël:
Eidgod could easily reroute this run to complete the mission called "Keep Your Friend Close" that most people consider being the last mission, and both beat the game and get 100% under 3h (real time), if he submit a run like that it'll probably get rejected as well.


Indeed that run would get rejected, because it doesn't fulfill the requirements of 100% that have been redefined as a result of this run's submission and this discussion and would be an awfully slow any% run.
Quote from TheMG2:
[..]


I had false memory of discussion being had about this point, so I stand corrected.
Quote from ShadowWraith:
Quote from AdamAK:
You can sprint infinitely by tapping the sprint button instead of holding it down. Paramedic is useless for speedrunning purposes.


Right. Doing this leaves the final mission in a state of non-completion (i.e you can go start it again) while incrementing the mission completion counter, correct?

Dying after killing Sonny during "Keep your friends close" still trigger the final cutscene and the credits but spawn you at the nearest hospital. You can redo the mission and get the credits again.
I'm unsure whereas it gives you the percentage or not (but it should be).
On a more serious and specific note, is this a complete list of all objectives in Vice City that influence the completion counter and thus are/should be the necessary objectives for a 100% definition?
Edit history:
AdamAK: 2014-10-27 07:31:44 pm
Totally rad
Quote from ShadowWraith:
Right. Doing this leaves the final mission in a state of non-completion while incrementing the mission completion counter, correct?


That's exactly what I was asking. Is it, according to SDA, completed or not?

Quote from UraniumAnchor:
So are we in agreement here that the issue was that the run was submitted without ensuring that something that wildly changes the run was still something we'd accept? I don't recall any discussion (but I don't follow the GTA threads) or any of the admins giving an answer. As far as I know moooh was the first one to notice the odd category and bring it up with the rest of the staff.


Sure. All I know is that the submission was made to replace K9's run and that it satisfied the old definition. No idea if there was some expectation of a discussion.
Most GTA threads are dead, because discussions largely take place on IRC.

As for a new definition, it's going to be game specific. If you want to cover all your bases, the definition could be

Quote:
Complete every in-game activity that is internally programmed to contribute to the percentage counter before this counter has reached 100%. Should the counter be at 100% before every such activity is completed, the run is not yet completed. Completion is defined as the point in time where the percentage counter does or would increment as a result of the player's action.


I think that would cover all options (and would probably extend to a bunch more games with some modifications).


Then why couldn't you have said that rather then accepting a run based on an outdated ruleset?
Edit history:
S.: 2014-10-27 07:35:47 pm
Quote from LLCoolDave:
On a more serious and specific note, is this a complete list of all objectives in Vice City that influence the completion counter and thus are/should be the necessary objectives for a 100% definition?

No.

The page says to complete Taxi Driver, and then explains it by saying "Complete 100 fares". These two statements contradict each other.

edit: depends on the definition of 'fare' now that I think of it.

Quote:
Complete every in-game activity that is internally programmed to contribute to the percentage counter before this counter has reached 100%. Should the counter be at 100% before every such activity is completed, the run is not yet completed. Completion is defined as the point in time where the percentage counter does or would increment as a result of the player's action.

This definition does not cover potential hidden package duping, as it is programmed to give % when the counter reaches increments of 10, not when 10 packages have been picked up.