Roll Eyes
Lips Sealed
<- 123 ->
List results:
Search options:
Use \ before commas in usernames
There have been a few updates in Spoonerville recently.

1) Just yesterday, cyg & I had a solid run which tied our previous (but unrecorded) best of 16:25. It was ~9 seconds off our best for stage 1, and ~3 seconds off our best for stages 2-4. We were on pace to get a personal best for stage 5, if Stinky Pete gave us just one more bomb before he went on his 19-second bomb protest. Would've made it a ~16:06 run. Woulda coulda shoulda.

2) Last Saturday, we had by FAR the best run we've ever had, right through to arriving at Stinky Pete. Then he proceeded to give us absolute garbage luck, I'm talking stinky fishbone level garbage out of Toejam & Earl. Had he given us very good (yet realistic) luck, that run would've been sub-16.

3) Randil's taken up the helm of making a new version of the TAS! Better still, he's probably going to incorporate damage & death abuse, which will make the run look all the more awesome. Looking forward to that, and perhaps there will even be new strategies that turn out to be useful in realtime.

So given items 1 & 2, cyg and I have raised the bar. Previously we were aiming for sub 16:20, but in the past 2 out of 3 days we've played we've arrived at the final boss with a time that could realistically get sub 16:10 with some good luck. Naturally since 16:10 is now at the level of "possible", we're going to push for a sub-16 before submitting. Stay tuned, and check out his stream on weekends when we play!
KEEELHAAAUUUL!! *shakes fist*

Good luck with the sub 16 guys Smiley
I've only recently come across your stream and I have to say - absolutely awesome. The strats and the execution is mindblowing so far.

Good luck on sub 16 ^^
I'm just a friendly TASer visiting
For those of you who are interested in the progress of the new TAS, keep track of the TASVideos forum topic:

Also, I've added some interesting stuff on this game here:

Right now I'm focusing on researching the game before I seriously start recording anything. If I find anything interesting I will of course share it with you guys.
Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^
Goddamnit, two Players looks soo~ much better than one =D
Go, you two! Keelhaul him sub 16 ^^
Have you progressed much with 1p, Alko? I've always wondered if goofy or max would be faster.
I'm just a friendly TASer visiting
This is a copy of EDIT2 of this post, but since it's of interest to the console speedrun too, I'll post it here as well:

I've looked into the player order more in detail today - I've calculated a rough estimate of how many frames would be saved/lost in each room if the player order was reversed. Short story is that switching Max to player 1 should be about 30 frames slower than having Goofy as player 1, so it's a very close call. I do believe, though, that I was quite thorough when I checked this, so I do think I have enough material to say that using Goofy as player 1 is faster.

Also, maps, with room numbers, of all the 5 levels:
Level 1:
Level 2:
Level 3:
Level 4:
Level 5:

Here's a google document spreadsheet with my calculations:
Wow, that's crazy they're so close. It might be even closer for a console run, since we can't skip the rolling spike log in stage 2, and so any gain there is moot if we have to wait.

Thank you so much for putting this together... I'm glad we don't have to relearn angles for starting every room, ha.
Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^
Can't say I had optimised Max enough to fully answer the question xD. I assume that I can make something very close to 30' with Goofy, and my Max times (significantly less tries) are somewhere in the upper region of the Goofy times. Uni has been stealing more time than it should have, but I'm coming along ^^

Is it just me who can't oben the Google doc? Or am I too stupid? o.o'
Randil are you German or did you take the images from somewhere else? =D
Edit history:
Randil: 2012-03-25 11:12:36 pm
I'm just a friendly TASer visiting
I'm Swedish, I got the maps from where it seems the person who uploaded them is German.

I think you need to have a google account to take a look at the table - it's the same as your youtube account (if you have one). If you still have problems, here's the same table uploaded to pastebin (though with uglier formatting):
Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^
Ta ^^
(Neither Google nor YT accounts on this end Wink )
Edit history:
Blechy: 2012-03-30 08:42:26 pm
Had a good run last Sunday, was 16:18 ingame.

Sorry for the faint talking in the background - PJ declared that per the Sunday Sequence Break rules, any run which features live audio from that week's show gets 10 seconds cut from its time, so naturally we went for that bonus. Unfortunately it was quickly nullified by a time deduction for getting the run during that week's show.

I haven't watched it since the weekend, but if I remember we had a really solid stage 1 & 2, lost 10 seconds on stage 3, ok stage 4, and then a bad stage 5 followed up by some of the best pete luck we've ever had. But considering the stage 3 & stage 5 we had, sub-16 is definitely there for the taking... we'll be streaming it this weekend for anyone interested.
Edit history:
PJ: 2012-03-30 09:33:16 pm
Sorry about the penalty, but rules are rules.

(Seriously though, awesome job!  I'm looking forward to the sub-16!  Go go go!)

Edit:  That Pete fight was insane.  Good luck getting that pattern again.  o.O
Edit history:
Alko: 2012-04-01 05:34:58 am
Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^
I keep thinking your way of doing the two cannons room in the castle looks wrong 8D
And wtf, since when can the two Jesters on the platform before the cave bosses actually CATCH barrels? Never seen  that before *stunned and awed*
YOU WON on the nine-arrow-mooving-platform room in the ship 8O

Quote from PJ:
That Pete fight was insane.  Good luck getting that pattern again.
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-04-03 03:21:49 am
I keep thinking your way of doing the two cannons room in the castle looks wrong 8D

I actually have the same feeling (regardless of mistake in the posted run ^^) - How much slower would it be if both players would simply stand in front of a different cannon and simply catch-throw the bombs? If Goofy would finish one throw earlier, he could be the one on the right and start walking towards the door

Edit: Didn't even think of that before, can Max even catch the Bombs in front of the cannon?
Edit history:
Blechy: 2012-04-03 09:52:51 am
Max can catch the bombs (and I do), but those cannons have 20 health. Goofy does 5 damage, Max does 4, so if Max throws any of the bombs, you will need more than 4 to kill it. Instead we hit the left cannon 3 times, switch focus to killing the right cannon so that we can keep receiving bombs from the left, and then finish off the left. This was actually one of our hardest rooms for a very long time because there's a range of time the cannons have to shoot, so even with our current strat we need to adapt to the timing. I have been noticing though that we can improve the very final bomb throw so that goofy doesn't have to be worried about getting hit by the left cannon.

Edit: Eh, it might be faster to just be super lame... will test sometime soon.
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-04-03 05:31:28 pm
I have another idea for that room - I played around a bit and these were my results:

- I guess, you go for the death-continue in the previous rooms to manipulate the cannon targetting
--> This way you always know which cannon will attack which player (I assume you do that already)
--> "Edit": I just tested it, and it seems random anyway which player they target first :/... So my idea may fall flat here already

- When cannons shoot, they do 5 damage themselves (same as Goofy)
- Cannons can shoot each other
- Whenever a cannon receives damage, he re-targets the nearest player

Strategy A) I have no reliable way to test whether my idea would work in the first place. So this may be something you already tried:
1.1 Max runs in front of the cannon NOT targetting him
1.2 Goofy runs to the other side but stays at the bottom half of the room
2.1 The Cannon in front of Max will shoot bombs to Goofy, which he can pick up and throw towards the cannon he is in front of
2.2 The Cannon in front of Goofy will shoot the other Cannon (important: Goofy has to be a longer distance away from the cannon he throws bombs at than Max when the Bombs hit)
3. This way both cannons will take 5 damage each shot
4. For the last hit, Goofy or Max can obviously catch the bomb and let Goofy throw immediately without caring about the distance

As in the "Edit": That strat is reliant on knowing which cannon will target which player...

Strategy B) The other idea was to simply both Players stand in front of the cannon and catch/throw the bombs without any complicate patterns - I assume that's the "super lame" one ^^

--> In theory you could try to get Strategy A) to work and if the cannon targets the wrong player, simply switch to strategy B) on the fly (Well, that's IF the Strategy A would result in any time gain)

Do you have a recorded attempt where your current strategy went optimal?
Edit history:
Blechy: 2012-04-03 07:13:25 pm
That's a really cool idea. Long ago we noticed that cannons do 5 damage to each other, but we never concluded what would make them change direction. Now that you've said it though, when I watch it happen it's kind of obvious. Cheesy Also it seems they change direction not only when they take damage, but also when they deal damage to each other (though not to goofy/max).

That said, I tried your strat - as you said, cannons focus on the closest target when they take damage. So when the left cannon takes damage (in your picture), he's going to shift focus to Max. And I couldn't find a magical position where the cannon by Max points diagonally, and opposite cannon points horizontally. Unless I'm missing something?

You can see how this room typically plays out in the two non-16:18 videos I posted on this page. For a really long time, this was one of our hardest rooms and we finally got it down, looking all cool with teamwork and stuff... but I'm sorry to say I think the lame-o strat will probably win out and be faster, just because of how long goofy takes to walk to throw the final bomb.

One other fun fact - the actual explosion of the bomb does 4 damage regardless of who tested it... if it was 5 that would open up some other interesting ideas.

Edit: By the way, it's cool you're looking into improving strats. To be honest, cyg and I notice some sort of strat improvement close to every week, though it's nitpicking at this point. But if a fresh mind came in I think it's very possible they could find some nice improvements.
You seem right about the cannon switching to Max.. In my attempts though it seemed to work, that the left cannon keeps targetting Goofy.. I'll double check that today. It really feels odd now, that this worked
Edit history:
Yagamoth: 2012-04-04 08:17:59 am
Yagamoth: 2012-04-04 08:14:15 am
Yagamoth: 2012-04-04 08:13:53 am
Yagamoth: 2012-04-04 02:22:22 am
No Edit since I wrote the other post as a guest:

- (using the picture) For one Cannon to shoot the other, the targetted player has to stand just about past the center of the cannon towards the left side. So there is no real chance, that if the left Cannon would target the Player in front of it, this cannon would shoot diagonally towards the bottom-right
- Basically I entered the room and maneuvered the two Characters to these positions simultanously.
- Thinking about it: From the picture I posted you can see, that there are already 2 Bombs lying near Goofy, meaning the right one shot the left twice (at least once) already without the left cannon switching focus.
- But as I said, I'll double check that once I get home today

Other than that, the only other room that seems strange to me was the one with the moving plattform where Goofy tries to pick up barrels and throw them at 3 enemies to open the spike-door. But I didn't think about that one enough - may be only nitpicking Wink

And... Actually, that's the only thing I could do for the Speedrunners, since I don't really have enough dedication myself to make a decent Speedrun  - and basically "improving" is my only 'talent' ^^

edit: Tested some stuff on Emulator: (always assume the situation like it is in the picture for my strategy)
- The cannons don't re-target when one cannon hits the other
- The cannons "sometimes" re-target when Goofy throws a bomb to the right cannon
- The Bombs do 5 damage on explosion (=letting the timer run out) unless Max was the one to throw it, then it does 4

And... Actually, thinking about it,  we don't need to know the actual time to see which strategy would be faster. We only have to consider how many shots the cannons shoot.

A) "Lame" Strategy, standing in front with both players and simply throwing back
- 5 Cannon Shots + little time for max to shoot back

B) Your ideal strategy:
- 4 Cannon Shots + the time for Goofy to walk from one cannon to the other to throw the last bomb

C) My "idea":
- 4 Cannon shots IF you can make it work, to grab both of the first bombs with Goofy AND then get into position

- I don't consider "C" to be viable in a RTA. Maybe in a TAS you could make it work to be faster, but there are basically too many "IF"s for a RTA.
- So it's between "A" and "B", Basically what you have to check is, whether you can throw the last bomb before or at the same time when the cannons shoot the 5th shot.

And... another note - I just checked your other attempt videos where the room would've gone fairly well. In one you didn't wait for the 4th bomb from the right cannon --> Strategy "A" would've been equally fast, since you basically used the 5th bomb from the left cannon. In the other attempt, Max missed to catch one bomb - but it wouldn't have made a difference since Goofy managed to pick it up before the right cannon shot again. But here again - it is RNG dependant, but it would've been actually faster to use strategy "A" since the left cannon shot the 5th bomb before Goofy managed to throw the last one.

Also, in the beginning of writing this I was actually thinking, that both cannons always shoot at the same time - which isn't the case. So there can be a deviation from my thoughts..

To summarize: I recommend using the "lame" strategy, since it's absolutely RNG whether your or the "lame" strategy would be faster. Technically you could get super unlucky and Max' cannon shoots 4 shots while Goofys would've fired 5 shots. But I'm not sure whether you could react to such an event fast enough to actually gain time (exchanging bombs fast enough).
Yeah the reason I think lame strat is prob fastest is just as you said - by the time goofy is in position to throw the last bomb, we would have gotten a 9th bomb anyway. If it appears that goofy's cannon would fire a 9th bomb faster than Max's, I think we'd be able to detect that and pass the bomb to Max accordingly. I'm sure we'll be messing with this room a bit whenever we play next.
I'm just a friendly TASer visiting
Cool ideas, I can do some TAS testing of these strategies. I'll be out of town for the remainder of the week, but I can jump into this at the beginning of next week.
Edit history:
Randil: 2012-04-09 08:30:45 am
Randil: 2012-04-09 08:26:16 am
Randil: 2012-04-09 08:24:23 am
I'm just a friendly TASer visiting
Ok, some good news:

Inspired by Yagamoth's ideas, I found a fast strategy to beat the cannons, namely to make both of them shoot at each other: each cannon is killed by 1 cannon ball from Goofy and 3 shots from the other cannon. The way you can make both cannons fire at each other is to have one player directly below each cannon and then move away from it towards the other cannon, so both of them turn and face the other cannon. This saves roughly 30 frames over the "Lame" ( A in Yagamoth's post) strategy.

I think this can definitely be pulled off on console - grab one cannon ball each with Goofy and Max, throw them both with Goofy and move in such a way so that the cannons fire at each other. The last part should be quite easy to pull off after some training (at least I think so). However, it is indeed riskier than the lame strategy and saves only about 0.5 seconds, so one could argue if it's worth it.

For your convenience I've made a youtube movie illustrating this strategy (no sound it seems, sorry).
Edit history:
Alko: 2012-04-09 01:34:32 pm
Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^
Similar enough to my current 1P-strat. Stand Goofy in front of the right cannon, until it has three hits (from left and rethrown Goofy bombs), switch to left until four hits (right cannon and rebounds) switch back to right with the final bomb. Of course, 1P has the advantage of both cannons focussing on me anyways xD

Great work on optimising ^__^