Goblins Quest 3 - December 27, 2013

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2013-12-27 03:23:49 pm

2013-12-13 02:15:53 am

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Goblins Quest 3 (Any %) (Single Segment)

Decision: Reject

Reason: Even if the questionable segmentation weren't an issue, the execution is too rough

https://queue.speeddemosarchive.com/queue/verificationfiles/762/

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2013-12-13 02:15:54 am

Run Information

Goblins Quest 3 (Any %) (Single Segment)

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/gobliiins3_multi_segment_run-v_HQ.mp4

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting. Verifications are due by Dec. 27, 2013.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.

After 2 weeks I will read all of the verifications and move this thread to the main verification board and post my verdict.

Warepire

Edit history:

Warepire: 2013-12-14 03:32:37 pm

Warepire: 2013-12-14 03:31:24 pm

Warepire: 2013-12-14 03:30:03 pm

Warepire: 2013-12-13 07:31:27 am

Warepire: 2013-12-13 07:30:50 am

2013-12-13 03:36:27 am

Heavy Metal Powered

How did I miss this one in the queue? Will watch and update with a verdict once watched.

EDIT:

Notes:
Segmented run.
There really isn't a 100% of this game, "collectibles" (things you can pick up and don't need) usually don't carry over between levels etc.
The game name is Goblins 3, it was later re-released by Sierra and they added the 'Quest' word to make the game title more in line with their Space / Kings / Police Quest games.

Video: Pass, but the hardcoded subtitles informing you of which segment it is should probably be embedded subtitles instead, or not used at all. Also some blurry-ness in non-important areas.
Audio: Great
Cheating: The runner did not include the save/load events in the encode, and there were a few discrepancies that did not affect this run. This is a save-anywhere game, and the game doesn't support saving in the way that is presented in this run. It's more like an IL table, but IL tables of this game (which technically isn't a suitable category for this game) shall not segment between levels inter-connected parts (like Giants/Inn/Wynona or Town/Lab/Store).

This run features some great path planning through-out, some minor things are noted in the per-segment comments.

Segment 1:
The response-time in mouse movement and clicking looks like the runner wasn't fully focused.

Segment 2:
Could have used some of the time spent waiting to make Chump move closer to Django.
Same mouse hesitations as Segment 1.

Segment 3:
Uses a lot of time (speedrun-definition of "a lot") to find the matches.
The mouse hesitations are a little less here, but still present.

Segment 6:
Should have switched to Chump, and let Chump trigger the level transition back to the Inn.

Segment 8:
Could have prepared to click on Fobalus quicker at the end.

Segment 10:
It's completely unnecessary to look in the pot.

Segment 13:
Should have used Fulbert to activate the button, then sent WereBlunt to wait at the trapdoor.
Discrepancy: There is no hole in the travel box (where the bird call is found) and the runner does not possess the bird call which was collected in Segment 10.

Segment 14:
Should have sent Blunt to wait by the gap while Fulbert was climbing the tree. It IS possible to get over, pick up the shoe sole, and get back on the same "bridge period", it's however really hard. (use extra segment?)
Some hesitation before entering the Lab.
Overall slow reaction times with the mouse in this segment.

Segment 15:
Could have switched hands for a slightly faster exit.

Segment 16:
Could have drunken the speedixir earlier. I think it's possible to do the same thing as in Segment 14 regarding the "bridge period".
Collected the flower again, speedixir was already made, there is no need for another flower.

Segment 17:
Discrepancy: The extra flower that was collected in Segment 16 isn't anywhere on screen, therefor not collected anymore.

Segment 18:
Should have switched to Ooya for the level transfer.

Segment 20:
Miscalculated the sandbags needed to take out the goat.

Segment 29:
Why? Pointless segment. Should have been appended to the last one.

Segment 30:
Could have sent Fulbert to the dust patch earlier.
Should have turned the page after getting the bowman.
Should have waited with getting the 7 until after the visit in the second book.

Segment 33:
Could have used Ware-Blunt to pop the water drop and rigged the track to catch the fish with Blunt.
Could have gone for the key before burning the fence.
Could have positioned Ware-Blunt for a quicker exit.

Final verdict: I reject this run due to how the segmenting was done (it's not a valid way to segment this game) and the discrepancies.
Even if the segmentation gets a green-light from the crew, I find that this contains too many mistakes to be acceptable, for a segmented run. I really hope the runner takes my comments to heart and tries again.

How did I miss this one in the queue? Will watch and update with a verdict once watched.

EDIT:

Notes:
Segmented run.
There really isn't a 100% of this game, "collectibles" (things you can pick up and don't need) usually don't carry over between levels etc.
The game name is Goblins 3, it was later re-released by Sierra and they added the 'Quest' word to make the game title more in line with their Space / Kings / Police Quest games.

Video: Pass, but the hardcoded subtitles informing you of which segment it is should probably be embedded subtitles instead, or not used at all. Also some blurry-ness in non-important areas.
Audio: Great
Cheating: The runner did not include the save/load events in the encode, and there were a few discrepancies that did not affect this run. This is a save-anywhere game, and the game doesn't support saving in the way that is presented in this run. It's more like an IL table, but IL tables of this game (which technically isn't a suitable category for this game) shall not segment between levels inter-connected parts (like Giants/Inn/Wynona or Town/Lab/Store).

This run features some great path planning through-out, some minor things are noted in the per-segment comments.

Segment 1:
The response-time in mouse movement and clicking looks like the runner wasn't fully focused.

Segment 2:
Could have used some of the time spent waiting to make Chump move closer to Django.
Same mouse hesitations as Segment 1.

Segment 3:
Uses a lot of time (speedrun-definition of "a lot") to find the matches.
The mouse hesitations are a little less here, but still present.

Segment 6:
Should have switched to Chump, and let Chump trigger the level transition back to the Inn.

Segment 8:
Could have prepared to click on Fobalus quicker at the end.

Segment 10:
It's completely unnecessary to look in the pot.

Segment 13:
Should have used Fulbert to activate the button, then sent WereBlunt to wait at the trapdoor.
Discrepancy: There is no hole in the travel box (where the bird call is found) and the runner does not possess the bird call which was collected in Segment 10.

Segment 14:
Should have sent Blunt to wait by the gap while Fulbert was climbing the tree. It IS possible to get over, pick up the shoe sole, and get back on the same "bridge period", it's however really hard. (use extra segment?)
Some hesitation before entering the Lab.
Overall slow reaction times with the mouse in this segment.

Segment 15:
Could have switched hands for a slightly faster exit.

Segment 16:
Could have drunken the speedixir earlier. I think it's possible to do the same thing as in Segment 14 regarding the "bridge period".
Collected the flower again, speedixir was already made, there is no need for another flower.

Segment 17:
Discrepancy: The extra flower that was collected in Segment 16 isn't anywhere on screen, therefor not collected anymore.

Segment 18:
Should have switched to Ooya for the level transfer.

Segment 20:
Miscalculated the sandbags needed to take out the goat.

Segment 29:
Why? Pointless segment. Should have been appended to the last one.

Segment 30:
Could have sent Fulbert to the dust patch earlier.
Should have turned the page after getting the bowman.
Should have waited with getting the 7 until after the visit in the second book.

Segment 33:
Could have used Ware-Blunt to pop the water drop and rigged the track to catch the fish with Blunt.
Could have gone for the key before burning the fence.
Could have positioned Ware-Blunt for a quicker exit.

Final verdict: I [b]reject[/b] this run due to how the segmenting was done (it's not a valid way to segment this game) and the discrepancies.
Even if the segmentation gets a green-light from the crew, I find that this contains too many mistakes to be acceptable, for a segmented run. I really hope the runner takes my comments to heart and tries again.

Onin

2013-12-13 07:44:56 am

I've actually played this game a little while ago, so it's decently fresh in my memory. Not that that helps making sense of any of the crap that goes on in this game, it's by far the most nonsensical of the trilogy, which was already based on random silliness in the first place. What I remember of the gameplay is that it's one of those games that handles multi-tasking very poorly, despite the mechanical gimmick being your ability to control two/three different characters.

A/V is good. It looks like this was recorded on an actual old PC, instead of through DOSBox (you can get the Goblin games on GOG). I have no idea how that all functions with segmenting and all, but really, this game has no RNG and no difficult glitches, just some micro-heavy puzzles at some instances, so I'd question the need for segmenting in the first place, before even looking at this method of segmenting. A segmented point-and-click game kinda asks for frame-perfect and pixel-perfect execution where-ever possible, which this run definitely doesn't have. Not to say it's bad at all, it's just more flawed than the category would expect.

With the imperfections and the occasional micro mistakes as pointed out above (there are more than those but they're some of the more obvious ones), I'd still vote for a weak Accept, but that's only if this segmentation method can be verified.

I've actually played this game a little while ago, so it's decently fresh in my memory. Not that that helps making sense of any of the crap that goes on in this game, it's by far the most nonsensical of the trilogy, which was already based on random silliness in the first place. What I remember of the gameplay is that it's one of those games that handles multi-tasking very poorly, despite the mechanical gimmick being your ability to control two/three different characters.

A/V is good. It looks like this was recorded on an actual old PC, instead of through DOSBox (you can get the Goblin games on GOG). I have no idea how that all functions with segmenting and all, but really, this game has no RNG and no difficult glitches, just some micro-heavy puzzles at some instances, so I'd question the need for segmenting in the first place, before even looking at this method of segmenting. A segmented point-and-click game kinda asks for frame-perfect and pixel-perfect execution where-ever possible, which this run definitely doesn't have. Not to say it's bad at all, it's just more flawed than the category would expect.

With the imperfections and the occasional micro mistakes as pointed out above (there are more than those but they're some of the more obvious ones), I'd still vote for a weak Accept, but that's only if this segmentation method can be verified.

Warepire

2013-12-13 07:52:07 am

Heavy Metal Powered

(Perhaps I shall add that this is one of my most played games from my childhood. I've played through it more times than I dare to count.)

UraniumAnchor

2013-12-13 10:31:51 am

Not a walrus

How do the saves work in this game if it's not a "tap a button and bring up a menu" type? Are they more like save points?

Warepire

Edit history:

Warepire: 2013-12-13 01:40:59 pm

Warepire: 2013-12-13 01:40:16 pm

Warepire: 2013-12-13 01:35:58 pm

Warepire: 2013-12-13 01:17:51 pm

Warepire: 2013-12-13 01:07:40 pm

2013-12-13 01:07:11 pm

Heavy Metal Powered

You need to bring up the menu by moving the cursor to the top of the screen, choose save, then pick a slot, optionally name the save, and then confirm saving. The save is of the type "save anywhere" which means you will return to the exact point in the game as where you were when you saved upon loading. Loading the game is done in the same way as saving, bring up the menu, choose load, pick the saved game, and then confirm.
The menu can only be brought up in-game, not from the intro screen etc.

EDIT: I should clarify:
For the segmenting to look like in the run, you need to re-play the game up to the start of each segment, or pre-play through the game making saves that work as segmentation points to load from when attempting each segment.
Since there is no audio-inconsistencies the runner did not enter the menu at any time to make a save, and the loading and/or playing until each segment start is cut out.
This means that the saves used are not from the game sessions that make this speedrun, but from other sessions done earlier and/or between attempts. The segment 13 discrepancy is a good example here as the bird call is collected in segment 10.
Therefor to me the segmentation is invalid.

You need to bring up the menu by moving the cursor to the top of the screen, choose save, then pick a slot, optionally name the save, and then confirm saving. The save is of the type "save anywhere" which means you will return to the exact point in the game as where you were when you saved upon loading. Loading the game is done in the same way as saving, bring up the menu, choose load, pick the saved game, and then confirm.
The menu can only be brought up in-game, not from the intro screen etc.

EDIT: I should clarify:
For the segmenting to look like in the run, you need to re-play the game up to the start of each segment, or pre-play through the game making saves that work as segmentation points to load from when attempting each segment.
Since there is no audio-inconsistencies the runner did not enter the menu at any time to make a save, and the loading and/or playing until each segment start is cut out.
This means that the saves used are not from the game sessions that make this speedrun, but from other sessions done earlier and/or between attempts. The segment 13 discrepancy is a good example here as the bird call is collected in segment 10.
Therefor to me the segmentation is invalid.

Onin

2013-12-13 01:51:22 pm

There's also a few single frames in between some level transitions that clearly do not belong to the game itself. Kinda hard to pinpoint them since they're never longer than a frame or two. It almost seems like it's just loading pre-saved game states somehow.

For the run itself it makes little difference since being able to save/load at any point would give pretty much fluent gameplay, and it's never used to actually cheat, but it does seem illegitimate.

But I know that SDA offers some leeway for inconsistencies in segmentation if they're inconsequential, which these are. This run could be reproduced with legitimate segmentation (and, honestly, single-segment as well). So it's up to your discretion.

Warepire

2013-12-14 03:31:46 pm

Heavy Metal Powered

Updated my first post with comments for the rest of the segments.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2013-12-23 10:21:30 am

LotBlind: 2013-12-23 10:21:20 am

LotBlind: 2013-12-21 12:29:58 pm

2013-12-21 10:17:44 am

Seg 29: Yeah this looks totally unnecessary. "Costs" half a second to have this segment.

Otherwise it does look like the runner isn't quite fully focused throughout the run. There's relatively often little things like the cursor isn't quite where the next click will happen even though the object that will be clicked is already in sight. This being segmented, it shouldn't be that difficult to remember. On the other hand I didn't notice the runner ever getting really lost either or making any obvious big mistakes so there had clearly been some amount of self-censorship. Plus the routing looks quite thought-out. The things that Warepire points out could probably have been sorted out had there been a thread and some WIP videos. I can't find any threads.

I'm actually going to go ahead and give this a

neutral verdict
I wouldn't stand in the way of either decision!

Warepire

2013-12-21 12:44:35 pm

Heavy Metal Powered

Quote from LotBlind:

Seg 8: Was there a stick of dynamite blowing up unintendedly? Is that just a thing the game does?

That's scripted, impossible to avoid.

SDAVerification

2013-12-27 03:23:54 pm

Decision posted.