Anything you can do I can do halfass
Hi all; Professor NES here- awesome marathons, sorry I don't have time to add much to the community, etc., etc.
But to present interests: I just got my JPN3DSXL not long ago and, not having any JP carts immediately on hand, dove straight into the SNES VC and picked F-Zero back up.
Now, it has been ages since I've played, and I never played competitively, so after clocking in an initial couple sets of times on Knight and Queen, I decided to jump back and check SDA to see just how terribly slow I was and what the going fast-strats were. The later tracks I'm generally blurry on, but I know good old Mute I like the back of my hand (not to say I'm fast, I just know where to be when, in theory). I was a little surprised seeing how frequently the runner lets off the gas given that I've found Stingray to be the machine I can most throw hard into the corners without losing grip, so I decided to pull up my 3DS course records to see whether my own times were nearer 5% or 50% slower than record. Aaaand lo and behold my times are all 10+ seconds faster, game-time.
So.
Somebody PLEASE tell me this is because PAL runs at a lower game-logic FPS but actually tweaked the frames-per-timer-second for reasonably consistent wall-clock time o.o; That would, at least, put my current casual NTSC/3DS top time at a believable PAL 2:37 to the record 2:33, rather than at a literal 2:11.
And with that out of the way, is there any specific reason there is no NTSC IL set yet? Not enough US/JP players? Also, what's the deal with bailing steep into the recovery zone at the start of some races? I get lining up the double-bump from Golden Fox, but I'd think that could be accomplished with less of a detour... Is the AI actually smart enough to not rear-end you unless you seriously cut them off? (and if so, why can't they be that smart in the middle of some races while I'm trying to line up a turn?
)
And, if we want to get technical, has anyone done time comparisons with and without letting up in the turns? From what I can suss out of the feel of the mechanics, I think 2D F-Zero (and FZ1 perhaps moreso than MV, GPL or Climax), even in the earliest days before they started advertising it as such, has some bit of overlap with my few-years-old-now analysis of 3D F-Zero in that there is a distinct grip/slip mechanic wherein:
- the higher the grip, the greater the max proclivity of the machine to dampen lateral motion and/or turn it into motion in the direction the machine is facing
- the lower the grip, the lower the release threshold angle between the direction the machine is facing and the direction the machine is actually moving- exceed this threshold angle e.g. by taking a turn too hard and you go into "slip" state where the machine will much more freely coast sideways without the dampening effect of grip
- the heavier the machine, and the lower the grip, the longer it will take to lose lateral speed, and thus to recover from slip state without intervention
- while in slip, turning the machine so it is facing the direction it is actually sliding generally shortens the time until grip is restored
- letting off the gas and restoring it even exactly once, as called out explicitly in MV, cancels slip state and reasserts grip, although depending on the weight and acceleration curve of the machine, you may need to have a bit of faith that you'll even out, since even under grip, sideways velocity may not be fully bled off for a few frames.
These factors are why, in combination,
- Golden Fox (light, low-grip, high acceleration) gets squirrely if you try to turn normally, but as was later called out explicitly on Wind Walker, if you're at speed, you can turn sharply well ahead of a turn, intentionally slip sideways, and pulse the gas just past the apex to cut turns ridiculously tight
- Stingray (medium-heavy, high-grip, low acceleration) can take many turns like it's on rails at moderate speed, but if you're too far north of 400, you can end up sideways. E.g. on the Mute I hairpin, you can keep the gas down and feel like you've made a clean line until your exit falls apart completely and you end up in the rough; on the Sand I hairpin I at least can hold gas the whole time but only IF I start the turn early and from the outside of the track to keep the arc a bit wider, but lose it if I try to cut in too hard or too late (note that I'm not sue I've ever been all the way up at 478 when pulling the leadfoot hairpin, so ymmv)
- Wild Goose (very heavy, moderate grip) is just fine until you swerve or collide with anything, at which point, high momentum sans grip, you're playing pinball.
The Sand I slow 3/4-circle turn I find to be a fascinating control test for which machines hold grip how well under continuous load at what speeds...
If any of this holds water, there may be some interesting driving technique to revisit, although sadly, because I think shoulder-sliding on 2D is a fixed velocity rather than a low cumulative acceleration as it is in GX, I doubt there will be any spectacular new tech like snaking or MT hiding in the fringes of the physics.
But to present interests: I just got my JPN3DSXL not long ago and, not having any JP carts immediately on hand, dove straight into the SNES VC and picked F-Zero back up.
Now, it has been ages since I've played, and I never played competitively, so after clocking in an initial couple sets of times on Knight and Queen, I decided to jump back and check SDA to see just how terribly slow I was and what the going fast-strats were. The later tracks I'm generally blurry on, but I know good old Mute I like the back of my hand (not to say I'm fast, I just know where to be when, in theory). I was a little surprised seeing how frequently the runner lets off the gas given that I've found Stingray to be the machine I can most throw hard into the corners without losing grip, so I decided to pull up my 3DS course records to see whether my own times were nearer 5% or 50% slower than record. Aaaand lo and behold my times are all 10+ seconds faster, game-time.
So.
Somebody PLEASE tell me this is because PAL runs at a lower game-logic FPS but actually tweaked the frames-per-timer-second for reasonably consistent wall-clock time o.o; That would, at least, put my current casual NTSC/3DS top time at a believable PAL 2:37 to the record 2:33, rather than at a literal 2:11.
And with that out of the way, is there any specific reason there is no NTSC IL set yet? Not enough US/JP players? Also, what's the deal with bailing steep into the recovery zone at the start of some races? I get lining up the double-bump from Golden Fox, but I'd think that could be accomplished with less of a detour... Is the AI actually smart enough to not rear-end you unless you seriously cut them off? (and if so, why can't they be that smart in the middle of some races while I'm trying to line up a turn?
And, if we want to get technical, has anyone done time comparisons with and without letting up in the turns? From what I can suss out of the feel of the mechanics, I think 2D F-Zero (and FZ1 perhaps moreso than MV, GPL or Climax), even in the earliest days before they started advertising it as such, has some bit of overlap with my few-years-old-now analysis of 3D F-Zero in that there is a distinct grip/slip mechanic wherein:
- the higher the grip, the greater the max proclivity of the machine to dampen lateral motion and/or turn it into motion in the direction the machine is facing
- the lower the grip, the lower the release threshold angle between the direction the machine is facing and the direction the machine is actually moving- exceed this threshold angle e.g. by taking a turn too hard and you go into "slip" state where the machine will much more freely coast sideways without the dampening effect of grip
- the heavier the machine, and the lower the grip, the longer it will take to lose lateral speed, and thus to recover from slip state without intervention
- while in slip, turning the machine so it is facing the direction it is actually sliding generally shortens the time until grip is restored
- letting off the gas and restoring it even exactly once, as called out explicitly in MV, cancels slip state and reasserts grip, although depending on the weight and acceleration curve of the machine, you may need to have a bit of faith that you'll even out, since even under grip, sideways velocity may not be fully bled off for a few frames.
These factors are why, in combination,
- Golden Fox (light, low-grip, high acceleration) gets squirrely if you try to turn normally, but as was later called out explicitly on Wind Walker, if you're at speed, you can turn sharply well ahead of a turn, intentionally slip sideways, and pulse the gas just past the apex to cut turns ridiculously tight
- Stingray (medium-heavy, high-grip, low acceleration) can take many turns like it's on rails at moderate speed, but if you're too far north of 400, you can end up sideways. E.g. on the Mute I hairpin, you can keep the gas down and feel like you've made a clean line until your exit falls apart completely and you end up in the rough; on the Sand I hairpin I at least can hold gas the whole time but only IF I start the turn early and from the outside of the track to keep the arc a bit wider, but lose it if I try to cut in too hard or too late (note that I'm not sue I've ever been all the way up at 478 when pulling the leadfoot hairpin, so ymmv)
- Wild Goose (very heavy, moderate grip) is just fine until you swerve or collide with anything, at which point, high momentum sans grip, you're playing pinball.
The Sand I slow 3/4-circle turn I find to be a fascinating control test for which machines hold grip how well under continuous load at what speeds...
If any of this holds water, there may be some interesting driving technique to revisit, although sadly, because I think shoulder-sliding on 2D is a fixed velocity rather than a low cumulative acceleration as it is in GX, I doubt there will be any spectacular new tech like snaking or MT hiding in the fringes of the physics.
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