Framerate abuse on PC games

Kibbo

Edit history:

Kibbo: 2009-08-02 02:38:57 pm

2009-08-02 02:29:32 pm

TIOLET!

As far as I know the framerate abuse, i.e running the game at a specific framerate to make otherwise impossible things possible or hard things a little bit easier, isn't something that has been widely discussed. What I think needs to be determined is when something actually counts as abuse, and when it shouldn't be allowed and when it's ok to use it. In the past strafe jumping in Quake 2 was banned because it depends on the framerate, and there was a recent run of Cold Fear (I think that was the game) that got rejected due to framerate abuse as well.

As long as a run is recorded with Fraps (in realtime) there is little chance of framerate abuse, but nothing prevents you from recording with external hardware like DVD recorders while running the game at just about any framerate you want. Should abuse be allowed if "everyone" can easily record at the magic framerate? Should all abuse simply be banned even if the special framerate is in the sub-60 fps region? What about low framerate abuse?

Thread title:

As far as I know the framerate abuse, i.e running the game at a specific framerate to make otherwise impossible things possible or hard things a little bit easier, isn't something that has been widely discussed. What I think needs to be determined is when something actually counts as abuse, and when it shouldn't be allowed and when it's ok to use it. In the past strafe jumping in Quake 2 was banned because it depends on the framerate, and there was a recent run of Cold Fear (I think that was the game) that got rejected due to framerate abuse as well.

As long as a run is recorded with Fraps (in realtime) there is little chance of framerate abuse, but nothing prevents you from recording with external hardware like DVD recorders while running the game at just about any framerate you want. Should abuse be allowed if "everyone" can easily record at the magic framerate? Should all abuse simply be banned even if the special framerate is in the sub-60 fps region? What about low framerate abuse?

Ewil

2009-08-02 02:43:06 pm

Personally, I'm OK with it as is now. Reject runs that abuse framerate in such way it makes the game run faster (Cold Fear), but allow runs that abuse framerate to give you chance of being able to pull off otherwise impossible shortcut(s). The thing is that you would have to apply a rule that would force runner to use only one framerate during his run, which is a bit silly since 30fps usually degrades aiming performance and 60fps can be too much to handle for a runner's computer.

And I'm sure there're many PC runs that abuse framerate, we just don't know which of them. Deep research would have to be made.

HalfMillennium

2009-08-02 05:03:11 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

It works on console games too. For example, 50hz mode on the PS2 game Ratchet & Clank alters the collision boxes and makes shortcuts doable. However, because most games run at a consistent framerate (50hz or 60hz), it shouldn't be an issue.

Kibbo

Edit history:

Kibbo: 2009-08-04 06:57:41 pm

2009-08-02 05:12:55 pm

TIOLET!

Well, it's a more severe problem on PC since games can run at anything from 0.0000...1 to over 1000 fps. Yes, I know you don't actually see that many frames on the screen but the game engine still renders them.

Edit: I take it people simply don't care too much about this.

honorableJay

2009-08-06 11:26:15 am

The Dork Knight himself.

This is something that will definitely have to be examined on a case by case basis. But there are a few general rules I'd like to see for PC games anyway.

1) If your system can handle it, record with Fraps/Camtasia at no more than 60fps and no less than 30fps.
2) If your system cannot handle recording and outputting to an external recorder is required, run Fraps and have it display the fps somewhere on the screen.

For games that can record demos at any framerate (like quake/quake 2):
1) A frame rate ceiling should be instituted before recording begins. Somewhere around 100 should be sufficient enough (maybe 125 max).
2) Any tricks that require frame rate changes need to be approved before submission is allowed, on the basis that the frame rate change will become the default for the entire run AND it doesn't alter the way the game is played to an extreme (like speeding up the game, etc etc).

A good example of this right now is the Max Payne NYM run that's in the works. In order to do the super jump, you have to have near frame perfect timing. While the time window doesn't change by changing the frame rate, the window of error increases as you lower the frame rate. So running the game at 30fps gives the best chance to hit the jump consistently. Some would consider this fps abuse, others wouldn't.

This is something that will definitely have to be examined on a case by case basis. But there are a few general rules I'd like to see for PC games anyway.

1) If your system can handle it, record with Fraps/Camtasia at no more than 60fps and no less than 30fps.
2) If your system cannot handle recording and outputting to an external recorder is required, run Fraps and have it display the fps somewhere on the screen.

For games that can record demos at any framerate (like quake/quake 2):
1) A frame rate ceiling should be instituted before recording begins.  Somewhere around 100 should be sufficient enough (maybe 125 max).
2) Any tricks that require frame rate changes need to be approved before submission is allowed, on the basis that the frame rate change will become the default for the entire run AND it doesn't alter the way the game is played to an extreme (like speeding up the game, etc etc).

A good example of this right now is the Max Payne NYM run that's in the works. In order to do the super jump, you have to have near frame perfect timing. While the time window doesn't change by changing the frame rate, the window of error increases as you lower the frame rate. So running the game at 30fps gives the best chance to hit the jump consistently. Some would consider this fps abuse, others wouldn't.

ridd3r.

2009-08-06 11:51:22 am

we have lift off

I agree it should be a case by case basis, it would be very hard to implement a general rule for something like this. Its up to the runners to make sure their settings are acceptable before attempting a run, it should be pretty obvious in 99.9% of cases.

Quote:

While the time window doesn't change by changing the frame rate, the window of error increases as you lower the frame rate

You mean the window of error decreases as you lower the frame rate :p . The window of opportunity increases.

Quote:

So running the game at 30fps gives the best chance to hit the jump consistently.

Well running it at 20 fps is much better, 10 fps or anything lower would be better still.

Quote:

Some would consider this fps abuse, others wouldn't.

As I run the game at 30fps all the time (like I did for the dead on arrival run) I don't see how it could ever be considered fps abuse. If I lowered it to 20fps then fair enough but 30 is a good balance between performance and not making massively big files. Whether or not I had to do the super jump I would still be running on 30 fps. Having to raise it to 60fps just because of a trick that happens to be easier on 30fps would be very unfair, actually a joke in my opinion!

I agree it should be a case by case basis, it would be very hard to implement a general rule for something like this. Its up to the runners to make sure their settings are acceptable before attempting a run, it should be pretty obvious in 99.9% of cases.

[quote] While the time window doesn't change by changing the frame rate, the window of error increases as you lower the frame rate [/quote]

You mean the window of error decreases as you lower the frame rate :p . The window of opportunity increases.

[quote] So running the game at 30fps gives the best chance to hit the jump consistently. [/quote]

Well running it at 20 fps is much better, 10 fps or anything lower would be better still.

[quote] Some would consider this fps abuse, others wouldn't. [/quote]

As I run the game at 30fps all the time (like I did for the dead on arrival run) I don't see how it could ever be considered fps abuse. If I lowered it to 20fps then fair enough but 30 is a good balance between performance and not making massively big files. Whether or not I had to do the super jump I would still be running on 30 fps. Having to raise it to 60fps just because of a trick that happens to be easier on 30fps would be very unfair, actually a joke in my opinion!

Stubgaard

2009-08-06 02:47:57 pm

Hey Ho Let's Go

Quote from honorableJay:

For games that can record demos at any framerate (like quake/quake 2):

Quake (the original one) is capped at 72 fps. You can't go any higher than that unless you use some devious trickery, and we have ways of detecting that. A Quake speedrunner recently had all his demos removed from SDA because he was running above 72 fps (I think his fps was an average 85 or something similar).

Shiden

2012-11-10 06:33:38 am

There doesn't seem to be an answer from a green name on this, so I am ultra mega necro bumping this. Why you ask? Well, there is a major sequence break in Bionic Commando Rearmed that is 80% based on frame rate. Here is the skip I speak of, left video is 30FPS and right video is 60FPS:

Dis video ~ Dat video

The only way I can think to do this without issue would be to record the actual run with FFsplit and have FRAPS open at the same time then when I need to do the skip start recording with it at the smallest size and 30fps limit until it is completed. Is this allowed?

ShadowWraith

2012-11-10 09:10:47 am

.

No. Since this game is heavily framerate dependant, it's preferred that you use the same framerate for the entire run. Artificially altering the framerate to perform tricks is not allowed, as was ruled here. It's espcially dodgy that you need the aid of an outside program to accomplish this.

Shiden

Edit history:

Shiden: 2012-11-10 10:27:31 am

Shiden: 2012-11-10 10:25:44 am

Shiden: 2012-11-10 10:05:34 am

2012-11-10 10:04:34 am

Using FRAPS to record a PC game is dodgy? Ok then.. well I'll have to record the whole run with FRAPS and set it to a custom frame rate where I can get the trick consistently that is still playable. The FPS in whatever game is played is limited to what setting is selected in FRAPS. It's always been that way.

The trick might be less frame rate dependent than I thought. I recorded with FRAPS at 60, 50, 45 and 40 FPS and oddly enough with each test being a minute long I was able to get do it the most at 50, lol. Or I could just record at 60 and get a great time on the 2000th attempt lol, mega resets.

Oh, just to add info I did it in windowed mode at 1280x720. Guess I should test to see if going fullscreen will make a difference.

Rakuen

2012-11-10 11:24:04 am

Weegee Time

Using FRAPS to record a PC game isn't dodgy.
Using FRAPS to forcibly change the FPS of the game is dodgy.

Shiden

2012-11-10 11:31:36 am

So you're saying I shouldn't use FRAPS to record my run specifically because it limits the FPS as it records is that it? :| Aren't most of the PC games that are on the site recorded with it? It even has its own page in the KB http://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Digital_Capture It's almost as if I'm being told I should try to put two magnets together the wrong way and hope it works, lol.

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2012-11-10 11:49:49 am

2012-11-10 11:49:18 am

Weegee Time

The point is you shouldn't be using a program to bounce the FPS rate around over the course of the game. Read the thread SW linked. If you have questions of about what FPS the game should run then that's something we can discuss. Temporarily nuking the FPS is what you're suggesting and that's the problem.

Shiden

Edit history:

Shiden: 2012-11-10 11:55:22 am

Shiden: 2012-11-10 11:55:04 am

Shiden: 2012-11-10 11:54:07 am

2012-11-10 11:52:26 am

Well obviously now I am talking about recording the entire run at 50FPS because I read what SW linked. Tongue

No game really has an intended frame rate...if the game runs smooth then that's what matters. Unless we're talking about Dark Souls PC LOL! Now THAT is a mess.

ShadowWraith

2012-11-10 09:47:15 pm

.

If you can only record at 30fps, then record at 30fps. Don't record half of it at 60 and only switch to 30 for one trick.

Blubbler

2012-11-11 02:52:24 am

fps is never consistent on PC games. You could theoretically have a background program suddenly pull a lot of resources and halve your fps that way (like antivirus programs). Half-Life runs do this too, there it is done with a hotkey, but it's the same principle.

Exo

Edit history:

Exo: 2012-11-11 07:40:39 am

2012-11-11 07:39:54 am

Sandbagging

No. In the Half-Life engine its a feature provided by the game/engine.

Lag.Com

2012-11-14 04:29:47 pm

sda loyalist

Interesting. There's a Quake run of The Wind Tunnels that uses fps capping during a couple of parts to make an otherwise impossible manoeuvre, possible. We allowed it there. Just an aside.

oasiz

2012-11-14 05:30:21 pm

Iha paska

Video old as duck but it demonstrates how FPS changes can affect some more serious things like HP lost in a fall.
Also in HL runs the healthdoor's healing speed is linked to the FPS that you have (30fps = 30hp/s, 100fps = 100hp/s etc..)." v=D_o8bnUnm54 " demonstrates that.

Possibly something similar applies to quake as well? no idea.
Not really a argument on either sides, just added this to demonstrate how FPS can change things.

Shiden

2012-11-14 10:07:48 pm

That's bizarre that frame rate affects fall damage in Half-Life. T_T

Lag.Com

2012-11-16 02:28:13 am

sda loyalist

Yeah HL still uses a lot of Quake's engine, so Quake has similar things. It's been part of PC gaming for a long time...

Freezard

2012-11-17 10:51:41 pm

There's also FPS manipulation in the Tomb Raider Anniversary run (and Legend/Underworld).

Quote:

Almost every shortcut in the game requires a specific framerate to work properly, which often varies heavily. As a result, I recorded the segments at very different framerates, ranging from 20 to 80 fps.

Quote:

Cold Fear was rejected because using a 200 FPS frame rate caused the game to run faster. The rejection nothing to do with the recording program being different.

These Tomb Raider frame-rate tricks are okay because the game still runs at the same speed.

So as long as the game speed isn't changed you are free to alter the FPS?

Exo

2012-12-06 05:44:25 pm

Sandbagging

Quote from Lag.Com:

Yeah HL still uses a lot of Quake's engine, so Quake has similar things. It's been part of PC gaming for a long time...

The difference is that its part of the HL and JoeQuake engines (cl_maxfps and max_fps) and not caused by manipulating the game with third-party software.

Blubbler

2012-12-07 04:39:28 am

Quote from Exo:

Quote from Lag.Com:

Yeah HL still uses a lot of Quake's engine, so Quake has similar things. It's been part of PC gaming for a long time...

The difference is that its part of the HL and JoeQuake engines (cl_maxfps and max_fps) and not caused by manipulating the game with third-party software.

So are scripts in HL.

Exo

2012-12-07 04:52:20 am

Sandbagging

Sure but those are banned explicitly Tongue