Final Fight 2 (SNES)- planning

2014-08-20 04:19:45 pm

Status on run: rejected.

It seems I got a LOT of stuff to improve and consider; no matter, its time to get up and tackle it once more.

Plans for resubmitting:

-Better grouping and more infinites.

-Less focus on despawning and breaking more creates and barrels.

-Play on normal or easy for faster time and weaker enemies.

-Reset more, even on less mistakes.

-Use the piledriver to finish enemies.

-Come up with better damage strats.

If anyone knows of speed runs for this game, or has general knowledge of this game's damage formula, it would be most helpful.

JackintheBox333

2014-08-20 05:04:36 pm

Professional Shaq Fu Speedrunner

The only known speedrun I've ever seen of the game (besides my really, really bad one with no infinites) and yours is this Japanese 2 Player TAS... and well, its not exactly the most helpful thing in the world, but I'll link it here for references sake.

As for Piledrivers, their damage output is ass. No idea the exact damage table though, though yeah I'm pretty sure you should never be using the piledriver in this game.

Rotorstorm331

2014-08-20 05:46:41 pm

LoL! Dude, I actually have that video under my likes! It stinks that there's little to nothing for this game, because this game has potential for a good speed run, even if its long.

Grouping enemies is a nightmare, they just don't want to be grouped. Not to mention infinites against Leon and Robert, Jony and Atlas, Phillippe, Rolento, and Retu are useless with Haggar, stupid hit stun....

I'm not giving up on getting Final Fight 2 on this site's game list; I can be very persistent on getting a goal done, and NO enemy AI, less hit stun, infinites, grouping, or Retu is going to stop me! Grin

MURPHAGATOR!

2014-08-20 07:23:33 pm

Terraffirmative!

I'm glad to see you aren't just giving up on the game, and I certainly hope you can get something submittable. I think you misinterpreted my comment on the piledriver, though. I pretty much see no reason to use the piledriver ever, the damage difference between it and the 3rd hit of the headbutts is negligible. In fact, I went ahead and figured out all the damage values with an emulator real fast to demonstrate. You'll note the damage difference between the piledriver and the 3rd headbutt is 2 damage. Oddly, the enemy health values aren't actually affected by difficulty, instead the damage output is. In general, the damage output on expert is about 2/3rds what it is on easy.

As far as grouping, I am far from expecting it to be perfect, this game's AI is fairly passive even on expert, but I do expect an effort to group enemies together when possible. Especially when fighting a lot of high health enemies, throwing one enemy into two will often leave the whole group together for easy finishing.

I'm glad to see you aren't just giving up on the game, and I certainly hope you can get something submittable. I think you misinterpreted my comment on the piledriver, though. I pretty much see no reason to use the piledriver ever, the damage difference between it and the 3rd hit of the headbutts is negligible. [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K5oQqQ5S9VUACezTt1-7nKl5EzkI_jTWdnyIWPKfxXM/edit#gid=0]In fact, I went ahead and figured out all the damage values with an emulator real fast to demonstrate.[/url] You'll note the damage difference between the piledriver and the 3rd headbutt is 2 damage. Oddly, the enemy health values aren't actually affected by difficulty, instead the damage output is. In general, the damage output on expert is about 2/3rds what it is on easy.

As far as grouping, I am far from expecting it to be perfect, this game's AI is fairly passive even on expert, but I do expect an effort to group enemies together when possible. Especially when fighting a lot of high health enemies, throwing one enemy into two will often leave the whole group together for easy finishing.

Rotorstorm331

2014-08-20 07:44:08 pm

Thanks MURPHAGATOR! I've always wonder as to how much damage all three characters dealt to enemies; this chart REALLY helps. Btw, do you know of any methods for infinites? If there some tricks to it, such as finger placement on the d-pad, it could be easier to do infinites.

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment.

galedog

Edit history:

galedog: 2014-08-21 01:42:16 am

2014-08-21 01:34:27 am

Ok so here I have repeated the infinite combo 3 times on a Mic with both Haggar(1 punch) and Carlos(2 punches). Mic has taken more damage from Carlos. I'm not entirely sure but it seems you can perform a 2 punch infinite with Carlos quite a bit faster than 1 with Haggar (with human hands anyway). You can also add a 3rd punch with Carlos which might be even more optimal but I just did 2 for the time being.

I know this still leaves Haggar's knockdown/grab moves stronger, but I'm just wondering if Carlos's superior infinite damage/speed and walking speed change anything. I've played this game for fun over the years, but I'm by no means an expert at it, so testing IL's or something myself would be a waste. I think you should try it out unless you already have solid reasoning for why Haggar is still better. (For one thing I know already, Carlos doesn't have a backwards jump attack to knock enemies forward like Haggar does)

Attachment:

damage comparison.png

Rotorstorm331

2014-08-21 03:58:16 am

Yeah, Carlos and Maki have better infinites then Haggar, better hit stun for one since enemies are getting hit in the face rather than being body blowed. I played Carlos a few days ago, my problem with him and Maki is hitting the attack button too fast to turn around and whiff the 3rd hit (Carlos) or 4th hit (Maki).

galedog

2014-08-21 04:30:04 am

Really? I find Carlos to be the absolute easiest to infinite with. Just mash attack and press left/right as needed. It should kill bosses and other high health enemies a lot faster. You're also pretty much completely safe from it being interrupted(from the front).

What are all of your controller options for this game?

Rotorstorm331

2014-08-21 07:35:46 am

Y button for attack
B button for jump

I also assign the A button for Extra Joy attack, not only for easy access, but for quicker recovery on knockdowns. I'll rearrange the buttons the next time I play to see how it works for me.

galedog

2014-08-21 08:56:24 am

oh no I mean what controllers do you have access too? lol. I know the ability of performing infinites varies depending on the controller. I find it really easy on a wii remote.

Rotorstorm331

2014-08-21 09:19:02 am

Since I'm using a Wii U, mostly the gamepad and the classic pro controller.

JackintheBox333

2014-08-21 11:49:34 am

Professional Shaq Fu Speedrunner

I found the extra joy button assigned to r to be easier to use for me, but hey, whatever you find easier I suppose.

galedog

2014-08-21 11:50:56 am

Do you have an original wii remote? It should work.

This is assuming you'd even prefer it in the first place but yeah. I think it's a lot better.

Rotorstorm331

2014-08-21 01:33:17 pm

Come to think of it, I don't you can use a Wii remote to play SNES games on Wii VC or Wii U VC without a classic controller.

galedog

2014-08-21 11:19:15 pm

nah, you can. that's how I do it.

Rotorstorm331

Edit history:

Rotorstorm331: 2014-08-22 02:54:26 pm

2014-08-22 04:55:04 am

Last night I tried the Wii Remote for final fight 2, and its good for me since I can pull Infinites (a.k.a shifting) without almost breaking it.

Did a run last night while playing it; looks like round 1 is my main problem right now since it got mentioned a lot in verification, did plenty of resets on screw ups or after doing the entire round 1. I'll have more details later today after work, so expect to see this post edited when I get back.

EDIT: After arranging button assignments for my Wii Remote, I started testing it out by doing a test run of the whole game; for the most part I landed most of my infinite attempts, which makes this controller ideal for me to use; grouping enemies is still an issue, most enemies seem to know attempts for grouping and while Haggar's reverse jump-d+attack will knock enemies forward if they try to approach him, its not going to clump all enemies together, also positioning Haggar's vertical suplex can be tricky as well, aside from the thrown enemy, the enemies need to be together in order finish them quickly and if one of them is too far away that complicate's things.

While reading the damage formula, I notice that Haggar's basic throw does the same amount of damage as the third headbutt, which is good if your targeting one enemy and if the other two approach from the back, you can hit them with the vertical suplex. Haggar's chain attack does 30 damage when all three hits land; 40 if the addition hit occurs or using the clothesline. Surprisingly, Maki has the second best damaging chain attack, with a total of 27, while Carlos's chain attack does 24.

I'm also finding Jony and Atlas almost next to unapproachable, namely their grab move and blocking; still trying to figure out how to deal with them. Eliot and Elias, while they can't be infinited, can still take so damage from the infinite; these guys are utterly cowardly. Leon and Robert are unpredictable wheter they come onto the screen or recover because of their leap attack. The Generics and Punks have arguably the fastest recoveries aside from Eliot and Elias.

I thought that Retu could be infinited on the last life bar, but I was wrong. Sad

Though I've stayed to the plan of chain vortexes (a.k.a chain throws.) lately, he's been attacking me when I approach him; I plan to alter my strat by mixing up my vortexes with the A,A, J+A and switch between the two.

Also, does any know as to how many times one must reset before tackling the whole game? Cause, I've been doing a lot of resetting on round 1, but I also need to improve performance on the other rounds.

Last night I tried the Wii Remote for final fight 2, and its good for me since I can pull Infinites (a.k.a shifting) without almost breaking it.

Did a run last night while playing it; looks like round 1 is my main problem right now since it got mentioned a lot in verification, did plenty of resets on screw ups or after doing the entire round 1.  I'll have more details later today after work, so expect to see this post edited when I get back.

EDIT: After arranging button assignments for my Wii Remote, I started testing it out by doing a test run of the whole game; for the most part I landed most of my infinite attempts, which makes this controller ideal for me to use; grouping enemies is still an issue, most enemies seem to know attempts for grouping and while Haggar's reverse jump-d+attack will knock enemies forward if they try to approach him, its not going to clump all enemies together, also positioning Haggar's vertical suplex can be tricky as well, aside from the thrown enemy, the enemies need to be together in order finish them quickly and if one of them is too far away that complicate's things.

While reading the damage formula, I notice that Haggar's basic throw does the same amount of damage as the third headbutt, which is good if your targeting one enemy and if the other two approach from the back, you can hit them with the vertical suplex.  Haggar's chain attack does 30 damage when all three hits land; 40 if the addition hit occurs or using the clothesline.  Surprisingly, Maki has the second best damaging chain attack, with a total of 27, while Carlos's chain attack does 24.

I'm also finding Jony and Atlas almost next to unapproachable, namely their grab move and blocking; still trying to figure out how to deal with them.  Eliot and Elias, while they can't be infinited, can still take so damage from the infinite; these guys are utterly cowardly.  Leon and Robert are unpredictable wheter they come onto the screen or recover because of their leap attack.  The Generics and Punks have arguably the fastest recoveries aside from Eliot and Elias.

I thought that Retu could be infinited on the last life bar, but I was wrong.  :(  Though I've stayed to the plan of chain vortexes (a.k.a chain throws.) lately, he's been attacking me when I approach him; I plan to alter my strat by mixing up my vortexes with the A,A, J+A and switch between the two.

Also, does any know as to how many times one must reset before tackling the whole game? Cause, I've been doing a lot of resetting on round 1, but I also need to improve performance on the other rounds.

Rotorstorm331

Edit history:

Rotorstorm331: 2014-08-23 08:31:46 pm

Rotorstorm331: 2014-08-23 08:30:59 pm

2014-08-23 08:29:27 pm

Currently, easy mode is looking promising; for one enemies are going down much faster and even if they attack, it looks like I receive less damage. (Maybe not.) Pressing either left/right during the attack animation will help transition to infinites more easier, been sending most of tonight trying to improve on infinites, and its getting a bit better so long as I press left/right during the first punch and then maintaining it, though it hasn't been rainbows and sunshine on this endeavor.

Grouping has been somewhat a hit and a miss, but still working at it; trapping enemies near a wall helps beat them down faster, but I still need to improve while on open space.

For infinites, its been easier for me doing it with one or two enemies, but more difficult with three of them. Having better time infiniting Won Won, though I need to decide which is the BCA, start infiniting him right away or chain vortex him to the right and then infinite him from the right so I can get to the target spot after defeating Won Won.

I'll have more info on progress when I get the chance, until next time.

Currently, easy mode is looking promising; for one enemies are going down much faster and even if they attack, it looks like I receive less damage.  (Maybe not.)  Pressing either left/right during the attack animation will help transition to infinites more easier, been sending most of tonight trying to improve on infinites, and its getting a bit better so long as I press left/right during the first punch and then maintaining it, though it hasn't been rainbows and sunshine on this endeavor.

Grouping has been somewhat a hit and a miss, but still working at it; trapping enemies near a wall helps beat them down faster, but I still need to improve while on open space.

For infinites, its been easier for me doing it with one or two enemies, but more difficult with three of them.  Having better time infiniting Won Won, though I need to decide which is the BCA, start infiniting him right away or chain vortex him to the right and then infinite him from the right so I can get to the target spot after defeating Won Won.

I'll have more info on progress when I get the chance, until next time.

JackintheBox333

2014-08-23 11:04:51 pm

Professional Shaq Fu Speedrunner

Because level 1 is so short, having a perfect level 1 is kinda important. If you mess up, its only like 3 minutes wasted. For that amount of time, its kinda worth resetting over.

Rotorstorm331

2014-08-24 09:41:47 am

I'm thinking of doing a you tube video showing off a despawning trick I found on Round 3 that'll despawn Mic and Atlas when you arrive at the point of six landmines. Since I'll be working all the way till tonight, I'll have to do it sometime tomorrow.

Since I'm also using the Wii U VC version of the game, I wonder if its possible to use the create a save point/checkpoint at the start of rounds and before facing of with the bosses and then trim them of before encoding them? Since I'll be resetting a lot, I think it might help, but then again I don't know if its allowed.

MURPHAGATOR!

Edit history:

MURPHAGATOR!: 2014-08-24 11:41:51 am

2014-08-24 11:41:36 am

Terraffirmative!

Savestates are not allowed for SDA purposes. At best you could do a segmented run, but there is no precedent for that in VC games. You can do it to practice if you want, but not for attempts.

Rotorstorm331

Edit history:

Rotorstorm331: 2014-08-24 08:29:43 pm

2014-08-24 08:29:03 pm

Understood, I'll just kept at it until I get a good single segment. I might also do a video similar to the expert mode I did a while back, but focusing on easy mode and use it mostly as a prototype for the planned submitted run. If I ever get to that, I'll try to link it, (once I learn how.) and see what areas I've improved or need improving. Thanks again MURPHAGATOR!

galedog

2014-08-25 07:01:12 am

Okay so I tested to make sure the infinite works on every boss with Carlos, and it does. The only problem is I'm not very good at mashing without straining my wrist to the point of severe pain, so by the time I tried recording Rolent and Retu I could barely do it. Anyway, I can't see how Haggar could possibly match this. Even if he COULD infinite these bosses, he does less damage per shift than Carlos, and his shifts take more time.

JackintheBox333

2014-08-26 11:57:37 am

Professional Shaq Fu Speedrunner

Luckily Final Fight 2 has 6 categories on SDA. One for each character on easy and one for each character on expert. Plus two co-op categories.

Rotorstorm331

Edit history:

Rotorstorm331: 2014-08-26 02:18:28 pm

2014-08-26 02:10:35 pm

FINALLY!! I'M BACK!!! Smiley

I don't know what happened yesterday, but I was unable to get on the SDA forums. Did something happened that made it impossible to get on? Edit: I just saw the post about what happened, so never mind.

Aside from that rant, I did a video yesterday that should how to despawn Mic and Atlas on Round 3 at the second stop. The first shows what happens when played normally, while the other shows by jumping forward to the next stop without stopping can cause Mic and Atlas to despawn; that stop has a total of six enemies to fight, so this trick reduces the amount to four enemies instead.

Sorry to hear what happened GaleDog; I suggest getting a hand brace, it'll keep your wrist straight will doing activities. You should also check MURPHAGATOR's Damage Formula sheet, Haggar does 10 damage on easy mode while Carlos does 5 damage on his first two punches; Maki deals 3 damage on the first two of her punches, while the third deals 4.

Here's an example, let's say Haggar, Carlos, and Maki were using infinites to defeat an enemy that has say 50 HP, here's what it would look like, and no, there's no video to show it.

Haggar: 10, 10, 10, 10 ,10
Carlos: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5,
Maki: 3,3,4,3,3,4,3,3,4,3,3,4,3,3,4

In short, Haggar only needs to do 5 punches, were as Carlos needs to do 10 punches, and Maki needs to do 15 punches to deal 50 damage. (Assuming its done on easy mode.)

If anyone knows how to link you tube videos to a post, I can try to post the despawn trick either later today or tomorrow.

FINALLY!!  I'M BACK!!!  :)

I don't know what happened yesterday, but I was unable to get on the SDA forums.  Did something happened that made it impossible to get on?  Edit: I just saw the post about what happened, so never mind.

Aside from that rant, I did a video yesterday that should how to despawn Mic and Atlas on Round 3 at the second stop.  The first shows what happens when played normally, while the other shows by jumping forward to the next stop without stopping can cause Mic and Atlas to despawn; that stop has a total of six enemies to fight, so this trick reduces the amount to four enemies instead.

Sorry to hear what happened GaleDog; I suggest getting a hand brace, it'll keep your wrist straight will doing activities.  You should also check MURPHAGATOR's Damage Formula sheet, Haggar does 10 damage on easy mode while Carlos does 5 damage on his first two punches; Maki deals 3 damage on the first two of her punches, while the third deals 4.

Here's an example, let's say Haggar, Carlos, and Maki were using infinites to defeat an enemy that has say 50 HP, here's what it would look like, and no, there's no video to show it.

Haggar: 10, 10, 10, 10 ,10
Carlos: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5,
Maki: 3,3,4,3,3,4,3,3,4,3,3,4,3,3,4

In short, Haggar only needs to do 5 punches, were as Carlos needs to do 10 punches, and Maki needs to do 15 punches to deal 50 damage.  (Assuming its done on easy mode.)

If anyone knows how to link you tube videos to a post, I can try to post the despawn trick either later today or tomorrow.

galedog

Edit history:

galedog: 2014-08-26 04:08:14 pm

2014-08-26 04:07:27 pm

Quote from BoomBoom777:

If anyone knows how to link you tube videos to a post, I can try to post the despawn trick either later today or tomorrow.

just paste the url and it will show up when you post.

Also the damage chart is generally right but not 100% accurate. Refer to my post earlier where I posted screencaps for a comparison. 2 punches from Carlos does more damage than 1 punch from Haggar. If you don't believe me, test it yourself. And like I said, you can shift back and forth a lot faster with Carlos.