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Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-16 07:27:15 am
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-10 07:46:58 pm
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-04 08:36:51 pm
Last night, I did a test run on Final Fight 2 to see if it was possible to speed run on expert; I think its possible, but I learned a lot of facts...

It seems Capcom applied damage scaling in this game to weaken meaty combos; in Final Fight 1, you could do a lot of damage; but around round 3 and onward most chain strikes, grapple strikes, and throws don't seem to deal the exact damage than they did in rounds 1 and 2.

The Andore's, Atlas and Jony, and Eliot and Elias tend to receive a defense boost on round 3 and onward; and thus take longer to defeat.  Won Won, Freddie, Bratken, Rolento, and Retu all have defense boost as well, except Phillippe who has less defense due to his high offense and that nasty grab attack.

Robert and Leon along with Elick are considerably the dangerous enemies in the game; Robert and Leon are unpredictable since they'll either walk into the fight or do their head stomp attack, which they can do on recovery; and if Elick is allowed to electrify his tuner forks, his charge attack can do a lot of damage.

Atlus and Jonny's blocking is incredibly annoying and their bear hug grab can come out of nowhere, which means its probably best to grab them or attack when they recover. 

Eliot and Elias prefer to get behind your character and attack when your dealing with other enemies or your trying to grab them.

Extra joy attacks seem to be more powerful in this game, though I'm not positive, still need to research more into it.

Weapons, point, and health items are more scarce in expert mode.

Cornering enemies near walls helps since it'll keep them from trying to get away and deal with them all at once.

I'll be trying easy mode later tonight and see if I can learn more, cya then.
Thread title:  
Professional Shaq Fu Speedrunner
This is some of the testing I did on Easy mode about a year and a half ago on the game before I got bored of it and dropped it. I wish you luck my friend.

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/final_fight_22.html
Still waiting for my new battery to charge up on my Wii U gamepad, so I'll try my best at explaining my thoughts on the three playable characters.  FYI, I don't know much about frame data and such, so please bear with me.

Haggar: Everyone's favorite former wrestler & street fighter turn mayor of Metro City.  I usually use Haggar when I play this game than Maki or Carlos.  Haggar's body splash attack, when perform in a reverse jump, will knock enemies forward instead of backwards, which can be useful to herd enemies into Haggar's range or trying to attack from behind.  Haggar gained the suplex throw which replaces his back drop throw from the first game; it now has good range.  Other pros include having good strike range with his basic attack and his stationary drop kick can stop Robert and Leon's head stomp leap and Elick, Andore, and Freddie's charge attacks.

Unfortunately his spinning clothesline has bad range, poor walking speed, and one of the hardest characters to infinite since his basic attack ends at three hits; due to damage scaling his spinning pile driver also takes a hit on later levels.:(  If you've played Final Fight 1 and played Haggar before, he'll be an intermediate level character otherwise he's more of a advanced character due to high attack power and slow speed.

I'll have more thoughts on Maki and Carlos when I get a chance, until then I'll get started test running.
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-03-03 03:39:12 pm
Just did some more test runs with Maki and Carlos separately, so here's my take on them.

Maki: Ironically Maki, while having a short striking range with her normal attacks, has the strongest extra joy attack and the best range of the three; its also possible to change her off the wall jump kick into a elbow drop before hitting enemies. 

Carlos: Well balanced of the three, no weakness but also has no strengths; extra joy attack has a small delay before execution, has medium range.

Other notes: As long as you don't attack enemies right away, they'll take the full damage from the extra joy attack.

All enemies have certain defense ratings, which explains why they take less damage in later rounds.

Haggar's spinning piledriver, when used right away, does roughly the same amount of damage as the extra joy attacks.

The tonfa is the best weapon in the game; the knife, when used by Carlos, does the same amount of damage as the tonfa.

BBQ doesn't "fully" restore a Character's life bar, if you have a sliver of health left when you eat it, it'll fill up most of it instead.


Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-03-03 03:41:56 pm
Did a Haggar expert run a few days ago, it was good, though I'll be trying for better results and time; If I can find a way to get a timer similar to those used by other runners, I can probably post times of those runs.  If anyone knows how I can download one or how to acquire one thanks!

Several facts from the run:

It seems that the damage that weapons do to enemies is set.

Enemies it seems are more aggressive in expert mode than the other three modes, not to mention more vitality.

Haggar's headbutt to the mid-section grapple strike is actually more powerful then I realized; useful for Andore's and bosses.

Its tricky to use the reverse jump for faster movement if enemies try to attack and knock you down, can cost precious seconds trying to recover.

Points are much needed in expert mode unless you're good enough not to lose any lives; I had three lives left when I beat Retu.

In rounds 4 and 6 there will be Joe's coming in or throw fire bombs off screen; in round 4 you can move to the most up part plane to avoid them, while in round 6 you can move to the bottom most plane to avoid them.

Land mines and flames are quite powerful, you can use them to weaken tougher enemies like the Andores, clubbers (Eliot and Elias.), and blockers (Atlas and Jony.)
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-16 07:31:59 am
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-15 06:27:08 pm
Its been a while since I posted, so I figured I'd update on some facts.

In terms of defense ratings, I'll be listing them from weakest to strongest.

C- Punks (Schot and Jack.), Acrobats (Leon and Robert.), Elick, Joe, and Phillippe.

B- Generics (Mic, Mark, Bull, and Elijah.), Clubbers (Eliot and Elias.), and Blockers (Atlas and Jony.)

A- Andores (Andore, Andore jr., and G. Andore.), Won Won, Freddie, Bratken, Rolento, and Retu.

In terms of bosses, I'm still trying to find strats as to how to deal with them; depending on the difficulty your playing on, it could determine as to how fast you finish off bosses; Its much easier to do a speed run of this game on easy since most enemies and bosses have shorter vitality, but if you want the game's ending though you'll have to do this on expert mode, and that means enemies and bosses have more vitality.

Won Won: For a first boss, he's ridiculously slow; if he's farther away from your character, it can take 3-4 seconds of in-game time before he starts hoping towards you.  Using a extra joy attack while give you invincibility frames long enough to avoid being struck from his drop kick attack.  Won Won has no flunkies to help him in easy mode, but he'll have back up on normal, hard and expert.

Freddie: Freddie's AI is similar to the Andore's except he has a jumping knee attack and will charge at you if your on the same plane as him when he recovers; his charge attack can be countered with normal strikes and can be trapped in a consistent loop of charging towards you after recovery.

I'll have more thoughts on the other bosses tomorrow or when I get a chance; shout outs to gamers and speed runners in the south and east coast that have to deal with the snow storm, I know how you guys feel since we've been getting some bad ones here where I live, take care.:)
Terraffirmative!
As much as I can't stand this game, its interesting to see the progress you are making in breaking things down. The only thing I'm wondering is if you were aware than maki and carlos can both do the traditional final fight infinite in this game? A few of the things you are saying (most notably: using weapons) don't make sense without that.
Professional Shaq Fu Speedrunner
Yeah the reason I even tried going through the game with Haggar a year and a half ago was because I didn't want to play the characters with the Final Fight infinites. I found it to be incredibly boring. And to be honest, I found Rolento to be infuriating as a boss fight.
Terraffirmative!
Well Haggar can basically do it to a lot of the mooks, TBH. They aren't truly infinited but most of the time they stand there and eat it.
In my case, I'm not very good with infinites...  Infinites are kind of like listening to the rhythm of music, if you mess up on timing it could lead to a chain-vortex. (Chain attacks that end in a throw.)

If I had a friend that was good in doing infinites that person can infinite a boss while the other deals with the flunkies and provide cover; assuming if I was doing a 2-player speed run.

I tried to using a infinite with Haggar, but you have to be quick in turning in the opposite direction after the first hit since Haggar's chain ends on 3 hits; also I tried infinites on bosses but it seems they either have less stun times or I got slower reflexes, which I think the later is probably the case.  I know of another possible infinite for Haggar to use, but probably works with only one enemy on screen.

With Haggar land two blows on an enemy, then grab that enemy and deliver two headbutts; wait for the enemy to break the hold and repeat.  Its not the fastest but it can work if the traditional method doesn't work for the runner.

BTW, nice to meet you Murphagator; I'll be looking forward to your runs on the SGDQ this year, and the ones you did at this year's AGDQ. Smiley
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-16 07:37:16 am
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-16 07:36:24 am
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-15 10:09:59 pm
Bratken: Of the first three bosses, Bratken is a freaking wall!  As if his hard-rock defense wasn't bad enough, he'll have 4x Leon's, 1x Atlas, and 1x Joe for back up in expert mode, though he'll have mostly generics and punks on easy mode.  If you can get Bartken to be hit by Joe's firebomb, it'll help you out a bit, but otherwise its just trying to chip away his vitality.  On recovery, Bratken will either remain still in place for a few seconds before moving, or go for his jumping lunge kick.

Phillippe: The glass cannon boss for this game; the cane he wields gives him good offense and range, while his cane pummel can almost obliterate your life bar.  Shout outs to Jackinthebox333 for the info on Phillippe's slide attack, which can foil your own recovery not once but twice.  In one of my runs, I tried to stay in the corner, but it back fired.  So I positioned next to the wall and used Haggar's drop kicks or the clothesline to knock him and his flunkies down, since they'll approach from either the upper or lower planes.  Schot, Eliot, Atlas and Mark usually act as reinforcements for Phillippe.

Rolento: He and Retu are the only bosses in this game that don't have reinforcements when you fight them.  Rolento cannot be struck with normal attacks when he's moving, though he can be attacked with jump attacks and extra joy attacks.  When he jumps off the balcony railing, he can be set up for infinites or a chain-vortex for a first attack; as Haggar, I positioned myself at the upper left corner on either the left or right side of the screen and throw drop kicks at him; this also counters his attempt to jump on the balcony railing.  If he goes for the mangekyo delta (Rolento's wall jump attack.), counter with a extra joy.  If you're using Maki or Carlos, use their elbow drop or driving fist attacks to stun Rolento and try to infinite him if possible.  On his last life bar, he'll start throwing grenades; when he throws them from the balcony railing, they'll land where the character's last position is; use grapple strikes when he gets through throwing the grenades.

Retu: Not much of a final boss, but his spin kicks hurt like heck.  Retu moves via hops or a giant leap and never walks; he'll break your grabs if you try to grab him, but he can't break out of a chain vortex.  He'll only perform the giant leap if you knock him to the far right or left of the middle or lower planes, which you can trap him in a loop by chain vortex to the far right or left of the middle or lower planes.  On his final life bar, he'll stay to the left; when you knock him down during this final phase, he'll use his spin kicks on recovery; he takes more damage from extra joy attack during this phase, so use them to counter his spin kicks.
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-17 04:54:36 pm
Last night, I watched a you tube video from FFtester, who did a deathless Haggar run on Expert mode on a Japanese version of the game, and I realized that I need to improve on herding enemies and performing infinites.  So for a while, I'll be improving my techniques on all three characters.

Another thing I noted while watching the video, was that while Haggar is on top of a barrel, he can hit the Andore's without fear of retaliation.  I doubt this would work for Maki and Carlos since they can't use body blow punches.  I'll be back in a few days to post more info.
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-02-25 06:08:54 pm
An update on some facts:

It seems that Maki and Carlos CAN attack the Andore's while on top of a barrel.

I'm starting to wonder if the damage from extra joy attacks are random; sometimes it does good damage, other times its the same as a 2X4.  I think, in theory, that the extra joy attacks do maximum damage on the start and end of the spins or if your facing the opposite direction of the enemy.

In the first bonus round, if you position your character correctly near the left side of the car, its possible to hit both the left side door and the car hood with the extra joy attack.

You can manipulate the appearances of enemies if you leave a create or barrel intact; due to limitations of snes hardware only three enemies will appear on the screen at a time.  But if creates or barrels are present on screen the amount of enemies will reduced to two or one until the said creates or barrels are destroyed.  This is useful if you don't want to deal with certain enemies at once or it can be a hassle if your trying to clear all enemies to advance.

Its a wise ideal to assign either L, R, X, or A buttons for the extra joy attack; that way, when you get knocked down you can mash the attack, jump, and extra joy buttons to help recover faster.

By now, I think I covered just about everything I noticed while playing this game, and I'll say its been a learning experience.  Hopefully, anyone trying to speed run this game will benefit from this knowledge (Hopefully.)

If I can get a timer app installed into my computer, I'll be posting times.  (If I can find one.)

Take care, and I'll be back next time.
Still no timer, but I just did a test run with Haggar on expert mode; for the most part it went well.  Managed to utilized infinites with Haggar, and I'm starting to get the hang of it; my real problem is getting killed a lot, I wound up losing most of my lives in round 6 and barely beat Retu.

Most of the damage I take comes from attempting infinites or enemies managing to land blows; if I can avoid attacks or react faster, I can probably make faster times.  Another problem is enemy backup during the first 3 bosses, that happens to be where my problems of not losing lives is.

I'll be trying again in a few days, cya.
Another test run done, and it was way better then the one I did the other day.  Improved on trying not to take hits or risks while playing Haggar on expert mode;
here's some highlights of the run.

No deaths on round 1; BIG improvement since I usually lose one life while fighting Won Won.

Nearly put Bratken in a infinite; only after I eliminated his flunkies.

The strats I've been using against Philippe and Rolento have helped me insure no deaths during those fights.  (Maybe, but hey its working.)

Had a much better run on round 6; had five lives left upon beating Retu.

Thanks to practice on the runs, I might be getting close to actually making plans to submit a speed run; of course I still have a long way to go, not just recreating the run, but go through the submission and encoding process, and getting the tech setup for it.  Hopefully, SDA will be seeing a Final Fight 2 speed run in the future.
Small update:

In round 3-1, after taking the lift, you can lure enemies towards the top right part of the screen were you can trap enemies and beat them down.

*phew*, doing infinites with Haggar can be tiring; not to mention when you're doing it on the Andore's...

Tired to infinite Retu, but he'll try to jump when I went for the second hit. 

On a final note, Phillippe takes more damage from extra joy attacks; I usually use them if he try's to approach from the top or bottom plane or drop kick him if he comes straight at me.
Tonight, wasn't a good night in test runs... Sad

I've been trying to improve on my test runs before I decided to record runs, but today just didn't play into my favor.  Though I've improved on doing infinites with Haggar, I wasn't doing so well today; not to mention I lost 4 lives on round 3, and had to reset a few times on rounds 1 & 2.

I'll try again either tomorrow or in a couple of days.

On another note, I think there might be some lag on landing hits in the western version of this game.  (not positive on that issue.)  Also when I watched FFTester's Haggar Japanese version walkthrough you can jump on the car, though in the US version you can't.  (I tried it, it doesn't seems to work...)

If anyone has any advice on performing infinites with Haggar, I can surely use them.  Thanks in advance.
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-03-11 07:27:29 pm
Rotorstorm331: 2014-03-11 01:23:35 pm
I decided to check the other modes to see how damage is applied; for the most part, damage scaling is applied in expert mode.  I stated in the first post that the listed enemies have defense boost around round 3; it turns out that it starts occurring on round 4, starting with the Andore's, and later in round 6 the clubbers (Eilot and Eilas.) and the blockers (Atlas and Jony.)

In Easy, Normal, and Hard modes, most enemies will take damage normally and thus faster times on beating bosses and stages.  It seems Capcom went out of their way to make Expert mode more challenging by making certain enemies more durable and more tougher to defeat by weakening meaty combos.

A minor note on stages a.k.a rounds; each round with the exception of round 5 and 6 have at least 2-3 sections, I'll list them on this post.

Round 1: 3 sections

Round 2: 3 sections

Round 3: 2 sections

Round 4: 2 sections

Round 5: 5 sections*

Round 6: 5 sections

Upon completing a section of a round, the game will fade off temporarily before loading the next section of the round.  Round 4 is the shortest stage in the game while round 3 is the second longest due to two long sections and round 6 is the longest stage in the game.

*- The reason I listed round 5 for having 5 sections is due to the section where you'll automatically  jump onto the drawbridge leading to the elevator section.
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-04-22 07:54:19 pm
Man, its been a long while since I've updated on progress.

I still intend to do the Haggar Expert run, though its taking me a lot longer then I planned, mostly due to doing test runs on rival turf and I still need to get my Seagate external hard drive warranty printed out before I do any recordings.  (my last one got corrupted... Sad )

I've taken Murphagator's advice in doing infinites, so far its working but I still haven't managed to fully do it without interruptions from enemies or screwing it up.  Haggar's infinites don't fully stun enemies unless its done fast enough and its not effective for all enemies and bosses such as blockers, clubbers, and acrobats; also its difficult keep Freddie in place since he'll try a jumping knee and breaking the infinite attempt.  I haven't tried it on Phillippe or Relento yet, but I'll update again when I do.

Another thing I'm working on is stacking enemies together to beat them quickly and trying not to get hit or die so much on one round.

In regards to Maki and Carlos infinites they can keep enemies completely stunned during their infinites that includes Jony and Atlas, so long as they don't block, and most bosses.

The important thing to remember is when doing infinites is to know which hit to turn away so you don't turn it into a chain vortex...

Haggar- 1 hit
Carlos- 2 hits
Maki- 3 hits

As you can see, Haggar has the most difficult infinite to do since his chain attack ends in 3 hits, where as Carlos ends in 4 hits and Maki's ends in 5 hits.  I'll have more info when I get a chance.
SPEEDruns not SAFEruns
This is awesome stuff BoomBoom, would love to see a run!
Thanks Deuceler; unfortunately I don't have stream at the moment and I should warn you that the run won't be exactly perfect, but then again it doesn't mean it "has" to be perfect.  Smiley  In the meantime, I still need to go over the technical stuff first before the run gets put up.

I recommend checking out FFtester's Final Fight 2 videos, which are awesome to watch and good for learning how to approach playing the game with each character.
I promised an update when I tried to perform infinites on Phillippe and Rolento with Haggar; needless to say its not possible since Phillippe can break it with his slide attack though its possible with Rolento if done at the start of the fight and done fast enough.

I did discover that Phillippe can't perform his slide attack when approaching the player diagonally, and thanks to his weak defenses, chain attacks and extra joy attacks are recommended for Phillippe.

I don't know if playing on a Wii U gamepad is the reason I can't do infinites correctly, but thanks to it I can do infinites with Haggar.  Smiley

Later on today I'll do a recording to see how long it'll take to do this run, so I'll see you all later until then.
Spent a good deal of the afternoon on recording Final Fight 2 runs, the first one was around 54 minutes ( I'll check for the video to confirm the seconds.)  Had a horrible Bratken fight but I somehow prevailed and a better Phillippe fight.

The other one was 58:17; managed to find a certain space to infinite Bratken without him attacking me, but the Phillippe fight was bad this time around; lost more lives on this run to.  Both runs done with no continues.

In the start of round 3, if you defeat Schot, Mic, and Eilot before you're forced to fight off the other enemies, on the next stop you'll fight only Leon, Andore, and Andore jr. instead of having to face Atlas and Mic as well.

I notice my sound and video sometimes desynchroized; I might need to get analog S-video cable for my Elgato HD capture card.
Minor info on shifting, a.k.a infinities; for a while I had difficulty doing them, but it turns out that I've been pressing down hard on my d-pad this whole time.  I'll need to press lightly on my d-pad to make better shifting attempts in the future.  Still need to get a powered splitter and other things taken care of before recording.
Edit history:
Rotorstorm331: 2014-05-12 07:59:01 pm
While playing tonight, I made a few improvements on fighting Rolento and Retu with Haggar.

In regards to Rolento, I remember watching a you tube video (I can't remember who did the video.) that the player moved diagonally to avoid being struck by Rolento's stick; after his first attempt The player managed to attack him with a chain attack.  I decided to try strat but used chain vortex for more damage, and it works for the most part; during the final phase I try to get him with a meaty combo when he jumps of the railing though if timed wrong the opening punch can result in a knockdown.  In the end I finished the last section in 85 seconds in-game time, more better then my usual 83 in-game seconds.

Another strat I found for Retu that also improved my in-game time; instead of forcing him to do giant jumps, I waited for him to do his first hop after recovery, then approach him close and go for chain vortexs; and it was perfect.  In addition to hitting him clotheslines when he starts his spin kicks, I beat him with 89 seconds in-game time; normally most of my fights with Retu usually end in 85 or 86 seconds in-game, so its a big improvement.  Thus 10 in-game second improvement.

Won Won's patterns can be random on recovery, namely he either starts walking or does the giant drop kick move.  I've managed only twice to successfully infinite him after a meaty combo.

The Bratken fights are main problem due to the Leons and Bratken's jump attacks.

During 5-2, I somehow managed to make Andore not appear, and in his place a Elick.  Sadly, I don't know how I did it.

Rounds 3 & 6 can possibly be run enders if you're not lucky.

I got a new computer for for my capture card settings.  Once I install an norton anti-virus, my Elgato game capture system, and other things, I'll be recording again!  Smiley