Final Fantasy VIII

2011-03-23 08:30:45 pm

Oh, hey, another stupid bug.

I managed to find a way to nullify all AP gained from the Iron Clad fight in the missile base: kill the main boss with an Angelo Cannon and queue up a Scatter Shot right afterwards to kill the dudes. This removes the soldiers dialogue (we'll kill'em first) when they appear because the limit break overrides the battle talk and gets fired off first, saving 10 seconds. For whatever reason this makes the game think the Iron Clad wasn't killed and just gives me the AP for the 3 soldiers.

Funny but damn frustrating.

Poxnor

2011-03-23 11:06:58 pm

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Quote from Sush:

I managed to find a way to nullify all AP gained from the Iron Clad fight in the missile base: kill the main boss with an Angelo Cannon and queue up a Scatter Shot right afterwards to kill the dudes. This removes the soldiers dialogue (we'll kill'em first) when they appear because the limit break overrides the battle talk and gets fired off first, saving 10 seconds. For whatever reason this makes the game think the Iron Clad wasn't killed and just gives me the AP for the 3 soldiers.

The situation you're describing is actually slightly more complex. The best way I can describe it is that the Iron Clad has its starting HP, plus a reserve of extra HP. If you attack it and deplete its HP, without depleting its reserve HP, it will die but you won't get its AP. You have to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single attack in order to both beat it and get the AP from the battle. It is possible (e.g., in an SS where you don't have Str+60%) to kill it and not get the AP from the battle when using Irvine's shot to kill it, so you have to be careful to time up Irvine's shot attack to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single limit break.

[quote="Sush"]I managed to find a way to nullify all AP gained from the Iron Clad fight in the missile base: kill the main boss with an Angelo Cannon and queue up a Scatter Shot right afterwards to kill the dudes. This removes the soldiers dialogue (we'll kill'em first) when they appear because the limit break overrides the battle talk and gets fired off first, saving 10 seconds. For whatever reason this makes the game think the Iron Clad wasn't killed and just gives me the AP for the 3 soldiers.[/quote]
The situation you're describing is actually slightly more complex.  The best way I can describe it is that the Iron Clad has its starting HP, plus a reserve of extra HP.  If you attack it and deplete its HP, without depleting its reserve HP, it will die but you won't get its AP.  You have to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single attack in order to both beat it and get the AP from the battle.  It is possible (e.g., in an SS where you don't have Str+60%) to kill it and not get the AP from the battle when using Irvine's shot to kill it, so you have to be careful to time up Irvine's shot attack to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single limit break.

DarkKobold

2011-03-24 03:37:27 pm

RPG TASer

Quote from Poxnor:

Quote from Sush:

I managed to find a way to nullify all AP gained from the Iron Clad fight in the missile base: kill the main boss with an Angelo Cannon and queue up a Scatter Shot right afterwards to kill the dudes. This removes the soldiers dialogue (we'll kill'em first) when they appear because the limit break overrides the battle talk and gets fired off first, saving 10 seconds. For whatever reason this makes the game think the Iron Clad wasn't killed and just gives me the AP for the 3 soldiers.

The situation you're describing is actually slightly more complex. The best way I can describe it is that the Iron Clad has its starting HP, plus a reserve of extra HP. If you attack it and deplete its HP, without depleting its reserve HP, it will die but you won't get its AP. You have to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single attack in order to both beat it and get the AP from the battle. It is possible (e.g., in an SS where you don't have Str+60%) to kill it and not get the AP from the battle when using Irvine's shot to kill it, so you have to be careful to time up Irvine's shot attack to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single limit break.

That is a pretty awesome find. However, the HP thing doesn't match up with my findings. Usually, when an enemy has two phases - it has separate HP values for each. Like the XATM-092, which has 6 phases, and regenerates its health once it is 'killed'. I haven't had the Iron Clad die before its HP reached zero.

[quote="Poxnor"][quote="Sush"]I managed to find a way to nullify all AP gained from the Iron Clad fight in the missile base: kill the main boss with an Angelo Cannon and queue up a Scatter Shot right afterwards to kill the dudes. This removes the soldiers dialogue (we'll kill'em first) when they appear because the limit break overrides the battle talk and gets fired off first, saving 10 seconds. For whatever reason this makes the game think the Iron Clad wasn't killed and just gives me the AP for the 3 soldiers.[/quote]
The situation you're describing is actually slightly more complex.  The best way I can describe it is that the Iron Clad has its starting HP, plus a reserve of extra HP.  If you attack it and deplete its HP, without depleting its reserve HP, it will die but you won't get its AP.  You have to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single attack in order to both beat it and get the AP from the battle.  It is possible (e.g., in an SS where you don't have Str+60%) to kill it and not get the AP from the battle when using Irvine's shot to kill it, so you have to be careful to time up Irvine's shot attack to take out the last of its HP and all of its reserve HP in a single limit break.[/quote]

That is a pretty awesome find. However, the HP thing doesn't match up with my findings. Usually, when an enemy has two phases - it has separate HP values for each. Like the XATM-092, which has 6 phases, and regenerates its health once it is 'killed'.  I haven't had the Iron Clad die before its HP reached zero.

Poxnor

2011-03-24 03:56:27 pm

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Quote from DarkKobold:

That is a pretty awesome find. However, the HP thing doesn't match up with my findings. Usually, when an enemy has two phases - it has separate HP values for each. Like the XATM-092, which has 6 phases, and regenerates its health once it is 'killed'. I haven't had the Iron Clad die before its HP reached zero.

I have certainly seen it die (and then the three soldiers run out) after it has taken less damage than it would take to make Irvine's shot start scoring zero-damage hits. And the point at which it dies is after a consistent amount of damage.

(Once shot starts scoring zero damage hits, that means its reserve HP is depleted.)

I swear I'm not making this up Wink

Someone watching me stream (I think it was Nitrodon) helped me develop a safe SS strategy for this fight (where you don't have Str+60%). You start by lowering its HP using one partially-executed limit break -- not so far that it starts its insane light-beam attack. Then, you're guaranteed to kill it plus deplete its reserve HP in a second limit break, thereby getting the AP.

[quote="DarkKobold"]That is a pretty awesome find. However, the HP thing doesn't match up with my findings. Usually, when an enemy has two phases - it has separate HP values for each. Like the XATM-092, which has 6 phases, and regenerates its health once it is 'killed'.  I haven't had the Iron Clad die before its HP reached zero.[/quote]
I have certainly seen it die (and then the three soldiers run out) after it has taken less damage than it would take to make Irvine's shot start scoring zero-damage hits.  And the point at which it dies is after a consistent amount of damage.

(Once shot starts scoring zero damage hits, that means its reserve HP is depleted.)

I swear I'm not making this up ;)  Someone watching me stream (I think it was Nitrodon) helped me develop a safe SS strategy for this fight (where you don't have Str+60%).  You start by lowering its HP using one partially-executed limit break -- not so far that it starts its insane light-beam attack.  Then, you're guaranteed to kill it plus deplete its reserve HP in a second limit break, thereby getting the AP.

Sush

2011-03-24 07:30:06 pm

I fixed the problem by giving Rinoa the 20+60% junction and Irvine the non-20% one. Irvine still has enough Str to one shot the dudes and Rinoa can now do enough damage (6200+ seems to do the job) to hit that second HP pool on the boss you're talking about.

The solution always seems to be hitting things harder - I'm fine with this.

DarkKobold

2011-03-25 12:56:12 pm

RPG TASer

Quote from Sush:

I fixed the problem by giving Rinoa the 20+60% junction and Irvine the non-20% one. Irvine still has enough Str to one shot the dudes and Rinoa can now do enough damage (6200+ seems to do the job) to hit that second HP pool on the boss you're talking about.

The solution always seems to be hitting things harder - I'm fine with this.

Why are you taking Irvine to the missile base? A single limit break from him can take down both oilboyles, where as it would take 2 from Squall, Quistis, or Zell.

My plan, at-the-moment, is to take Zell-Selphie-Rinoa to the missile base, use punch rush against the Iron Clad, and Angelo Cannon against the guards.

Then, Irvine limit breaks all of the bosses in Garden. His limit break is much better than Renzokuen.

me:ka

2011-03-25 02:59:16 pm

Since you can upload long videos on youtube nowadays, I decided to upload my tool-assisted testrun I made long ago (mentioned it earlier somewhere on this thread):

Proper PSX TASing wasn't yet available back then, which is why the menus particularly are slow. Funnily, I got the exact same time as darkwasabi (8:47). I made an unnecessary visit to Edea's house somewhere (cost maybe a couple of minutes), and I've heard that darkwasabi used fastspeed CD option in PS2, which should be why this doesn't have a faster in-game time even though it's faster.

I didn't take the occult book because I think it might be faster this way (hard to know), at least for TAS. I'm not sure if DarkKobold took it in his TAS.

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2011-03-25 04:00:05 pm

Carcinogen: 2011-03-25 03:35:16 pm

Carcinogen: 2011-03-25 03:34:45 pm

2011-03-25 03:31:06 pm

Pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to be drop out of a serious SDA attempt for this run. I keep saying I'm going to do it, I've said it for over two years, and I haven't even made a dent in it. RPGs are more fun to plan for than to actually speedrun, and I don't even have the time to do it anymore. I'm disappointed in myself on some level (my life is full of things I say I'm going to do but never accomplish), but I'd rather strive for pragmatism and work on something else I'm more motivated to do... Like making up excuses to myself to give heart-felt soliloquies to people on an internet forum to excuse myself from a game-related time sink project! =D

Sush, good luck! If you haven't already considered it (what one person may know, another person may not):
-Save at save points instead of the World Map where possible (cuts down on a couple of extra seconds upon loading the game, not sure if that's relevant on the PC version)
-Take advantage of the Escape animation a lot. Limit Breaks will activate instantaneously if characters are running away instead of getting up ever so slowly to ready themselves.

3iikka - there was something up with Wasabi's PS2. I've run the first segment exactly the same way he did on several models of PS2 with fast disk speed (SCPH-30001 fat, SCPH-77001 slim to name a couple) and still didn't match his time, as did a bunch of other people in this thread.

Pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to be drop out of a serious SDA attempt for this run. I keep saying I'm going to do it, I've said it for over two years, and I haven't even made a dent in it. RPGs are more fun to plan for than to actually speedrun, and I don't even have the time to do it anymore. I'm disappointed in myself on some level (my life is full of things I say I'm going to do but never accomplish), but I'd rather strive for pragmatism and work on something else I'm more motivated to do... Like making up excuses to myself to give heart-felt soliloquies to people on an internet forum to excuse myself from a game-related time sink project! =D

Sush, good luck! If you haven't already considered it (what one person may know, another person may not):
-Save at save points instead of the World Map where possible (cuts down on a couple of extra seconds upon loading the game, not sure if that's relevant on the PC version)
-Take advantage of the Escape animation a lot. Limit Breaks will activate instantaneously if characters are running away instead of getting up ever so slowly to ready themselves.

3iikka - there was something up with Wasabi's PS2. I've run the first segment exactly the same way he did on several models of PS2 with fast disk speed (SCPH-30001 fat, SCPH-77001 slim to name a couple) and still didn't match his time, as did a bunch of other people in this thread.

Sush

2011-03-25 04:35:29 pm

Quote from DarkKobold:

My plan, at-the-moment, is to take Zell-Selphie-Rinoa to the missile base, use punch rush against the Iron Clad, and Angelo Cannon against the guards.

Then, Irvine limit breaks all of the bosses in Garden. His limit break is much better than Renzokuen.

Pretty decent point. I just redid my last section of the prison to accomodate the team change. After doing the maths there's quite alot of boss's at the garden, the 6-7 seconds or whatever wasted with Zell punching stuff like an idiot would be more than made up for with Shot.

Quote from Carcinogen:

Sush, good luck! If you haven't already considered it (what one person may know, another person may not):
-Save at save points instead of the World Map where possible (cuts down on a couple of extra seconds upon loading the game, not sure if that's relevant on the PC version)

Yeah this doesn't effect the PC version, screens load almost instantly in almost all situations.

Quote from Carcinogen:

-Take advantage of the Escape animation a lot. Limit Breaks will activate instantaneously if characters are running away instead of getting up ever so slowly to ready themselves.

This however I did not know! Concider the idea stolen and in use. Thanks for the support.

[quote="DarkKobold"]
My plan, at-the-moment, is to take Zell-Selphie-Rinoa to the missile base, use punch rush against the Iron Clad, and Angelo Cannon against the guards.

Then, Irvine limit breaks all of the bosses in Garden. His limit break is much better than Renzokuen. [/quote]

Pretty decent point. I just redid my last section of the prison to accomodate the team change. After doing the maths there's quite alot of boss's at the garden, the 6-7 seconds or whatever wasted with Zell punching stuff like an idiot would be more than made up for with Shot.

[quote="Carcinogen"]
Sush, good luck! If you haven't already considered it (what one person may know, another person may not):
-Save at save points instead of the World Map where possible (cuts down on a couple of extra seconds upon loading the game, not sure if that's relevant on the PC version)
[/quote]

Yeah this doesn't effect the PC version, screens load almost instantly in almost all situations.

[quote="Carcinogen"]
-Take advantage of the Escape animation a lot. Limit Breaks will activate instantaneously if characters are running away instead of getting up ever so slowly to ready themselves.
[/quote]

This however I did not know! Concider the idea stolen and in use. Thanks for the support.

DarkKobold

Edit history:

DarkKobold: 2011-04-05 12:02:50 pm

DarkKobold: 2011-04-05 12:02:47 pm

2011-03-25 08:57:20 pm

RPG TASer

Quote from Carcinogen:

-Take advantage of the Escape animation a lot. Limit Breaks will activate instantaneously if characters are running away instead of getting up ever so slowly to ready themselves.

I've been using this trick a ton in the TAS, after I saw your post a long time ago on this. Its a great trick, and saves on all prep animations, not just limits. It was an awesome discovery!

EDIT: Also, I've determined that using the run trick is important for after a limit break as well. The falling animation prevents the enemy death animation from starting. You can save ~30-60 frames by running at the end of a limit break that makes the final kill.

Sush

2011-04-07 06:50:42 pm

OK I'm pretty sure sub 8 hours is possible on the PC.

Sadly I think I'm going to run over by 5 or so minutes myself but I'm sure it can be done.

ButtersBB

2011-04-19 11:53:56 pm

Hey, I talked to some of you during the marathon streams. I am really interested in this game, and glad to see so many others are as well!

I will have to read through all the pages and get caught up to speed, but I would really like to help with these runs (SS and Segmented) as much as I can. Particularly, I'm interested in doing an SS run, though I believe Poxnor is already knee deep into that, so I would at least like to assist with it.

Poxnor

2011-04-20 01:15:58 am

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Quote from ButtersBB:

Particularly, I'm interested in doing an SS run, though I believe Poxnor is already knee deep into that, so I would at least like to assist with it.

Poxnor just finished an SS of a one-hour game, and isn't sure if he has it in him to do an SS of a ten-hour game Wink

I don't know; I could try during one of the marathons I'm playing in this summer, but I'm not sure.

ButtersBB

2011-04-20 01:54:29 am

Ah. Well, if you have notes you are willing to share, let me know! I have to go through the game a couple of times, but I do want to go for the SS.

Trekhaak

2011-04-20 02:30:01 am

Everybody's favorite monster

Quote from Poxnor:

Quote from ButtersBB:

Particularly, I'm interested in doing an SS run, though I believe Poxnor is already knee deep into that, so I would at least like to assist with it.

Poxnor just finished an SS of a one-hour game, and isn't sure if he has it in him to do an SS of a ten-hour game Wink

I don't know; I could try during one of the marathons I'm playing in this summer, but I'm not sure.

You could make some money with it Wink

Poxnor

2011-04-22 12:52:35 pm

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Quote from Trekhaak:

You could make some money with it Wink

Heh, it's not about the money Smiley

Maybe I should try this summer; maybe I'll get lucky during one of the marathons. I'd have to see how playing without a turbo controller would change things. For one, there are several bosses that Irvine can just get four shots off on, which is just enough to kill them. Hmm...I could use Aura in those battles to guarantee the time to get more shots...

Poxnor

2011-04-22 01:00:53 pm

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Quote from ButtersBB:

Ah. Well, if you have notes you are willing to share, let me know! I have to go through the game a couple of times, but I do want to go for the SS.

I've attached the notes that I used for my marathon SS run last summer Smiley

Just ignore the "save" instructions (most of those were in case of power outage, or something similarly silly, as opposed to being before something horribly difficult).

Attachments:

2011-04-23 01:52:41 pm

Quote from Poxnor:

Quote from ButtersBB:

Ah. Well, if you have notes you are willing to share, let me know! I have to go through the game a couple of times, but I do want to go for the SS.

I've attached the notes that I used for my marathon SS run last summer Smiley

Just ignore the "save" instructions (most of those were in case of power outage, or something similarly silly, as opposed to being before something horribly difficult).

Thank you very much!

After reading through them, I have some questions:
What purpose do the draw points serve? I can understand drawing Aura and Meltdown, and perhaps Blind for the Diablos fight, but why everything else?
Why do you get Card and attempt to card the Anacondaur?
Why no Zell card?
Why fight Cerberus?

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2011-04-23 03:19:26 pm

2011-04-23 03:16:28 pm

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Quote from ButtersBB:

What purpose do the draw points serve? I can understand drawing Aura and Meltdown, and perhaps Blind for the Diablos fight, but why everything else?

For the final battle. If one character has 100 Curagas, 1 Fire, and 1 Blind equipped, and gets hit with a magic-destroying attack, the odds are 33.3% that the 100 Curagas get blown away, 33.3% that the 1 Fire gets blown away, and 33.3% that the 1 Blind gets blown away. As such, you want to equip 1 of lots of useless (non-junctioned) magic to your three heros. Losing Irvine's strength junction is a run-killer at the ten-hour mark.

I should note that when I came to distributing the magic around during the TSG Community marathon last summer, I was one spell short of filling the three heros with useless junk. Whether that was an execution error on my part (e.g., I was half-dazed and forgot a draw point), or whether it was an error in the notes (i.e., I forgot to write one of the draw points into my notes), I don't know. I'll be breaking FF8 out again soon in preparation for this summer's marathon season, so I'll figure that out shortly.

Quote from ButtersBB:

Why do you get Card and attempt to card the Anacondaur?

You need Card to get Card Mod.

I card the Anacondaur because I want the Anacondaur card Wink

Ideally, I would have tried to win the Quistis card after beating Ifrit (so that I lose less time if I get horrible luck and the Trepie doesn't play the Quistis card for a long time), but the odds of being able to win when he does play the card are just too low then. So I add Diablos and the Anacondaur to my deck first.

Quote from ButtersBB:

Why no Zell card?

This is one of the two biggest differences between a segmented run and an SS run. I don't know the exact number, but I believe the odds of Zell's mom playing the card to be in the range of 1/10 - 1/20. You could sit there playing Triple Triad for an hour an not see that stupid Zell card.

The Quistis card, on the other hand, I believe is played with odds somewhere in the range of 1/2 - 1/3. And, if it takes a few tries to get that card, the Trepie will usually play the two cards you need to upgrade Squall's gunblade; so, you might as well grab those (cause, hey, free gunblade upgrade can't hurt, given that you don't have Str+60%).

And, just so you're aware, Str+60% does not increase the damage you do by 60%; it increases your strength by 60%. The conversion from strength to damage is quadratic; so, it actually multiplies damage done by something like 2.45x.

Quote from ButtersBB:

Why fight Cerberus?

This is the other big difference between segmented and SS. In a segmented run, you need two heros for the last battle. In an SS run, you need at least two heros and two semi-heros (I prefer three heros and one semi-hero). If your opening party for the end battle is three un-junctioned wimps, it's game over. So you need more GFs. Cerberus is a nice one, as he gives the ability to speed junction.

[quote="ButtersBB"]What purpose do the draw points serve? I can understand drawing Aura and Meltdown, and perhaps Blind for the Diablos fight, but why everything else?[/quote]
For the final battle.  If one character has 100 Curagas, 1 Fire, and 1 Blind equipped, and gets hit with a magic-destroying attack, the odds are 33.3% that the 100 Curagas get blown away, 33.3% that the 1 Fire gets blown away, and 33.3% that the 1 Blind gets blown away.  As such, you want to equip 1 of lots of useless (non-junctioned) magic to your three heros.  Losing Irvine's strength junction is a run-killer at the ten-hour mark.

I should note that when I came to distributing the magic around during the TSG Community marathon last summer, I was one spell short of filling the three heros with useless junk.  Whether that was an execution error on my part (e.g., I was half-dazed and forgot a draw point), or whether it was an error in the notes (i.e., I forgot to write one of the draw points into my notes), I don't know.  I'll be breaking FF8 out again soon in preparation for this summer's marathon season, so I'll figure that out shortly.

[quote="ButtersBB"]Why do you get Card and attempt to card the Anacondaur?[/quote]
You need Card to get Card Mod.

I card the Anacondaur because I want the Anacondaur card ;)  Ideally, I would have tried to win the Quistis card after beating Ifrit (so that I lose less time if I get horrible luck and the Trepie doesn't play the Quistis card for a long time), but the odds of being able to win when he does play the card are just too low then.  So I add Diablos and the Anacondaur to my deck first.

[quote="ButtersBB"]Why no Zell card?[/quote]
This is one of the two biggest differences between a segmented run and an SS run.  I don't know the exact number, but I believe the odds of Zell's mom playing the card to be in the range of 1/10 - 1/20.  You could sit there playing Triple Triad for an hour an not see that stupid Zell card.

The Quistis card, on the other hand, I believe is played with odds somewhere in the range of 1/2 - 1/3.  And, if it takes a few tries to get that card, the Trepie will usually play the two cards you need to upgrade Squall's gunblade; so, you might as well grab those (cause, hey, free gunblade upgrade can't hurt, given that you don't have Str+60%).

And, just so you're aware, Str+60% does not increase the damage you do by 60%; it increases your strength by 60%.  The conversion from strength to damage is quadratic; so, it actually multiplies damage done by something like 2.45x.

[quote="ButtersBB"]Why fight Cerberus?[/quote]
This is the other big difference between segmented and SS.  In a segmented run, you need two heros for the last battle.  In an SS run, you need at least two heros and two semi-heros (I prefer three heros and one semi-hero).  If your opening party for the end battle is three un-junctioned wimps, it's game over.  So you need more GFs.  Cerberus is a nice one, as he gives the ability to speed junction.

DarkKobold

Edit history:

DarkKobold: 2011-04-23 10:50:36 pm

2011-04-23 10:13:33 pm

RPG TASer

Here is a list of all 255 hands that Trepie in the cafeteria can have - Note that card 103 is Quistis. Interesting that her card clumps together. Also, I accidentally hit cancel during the script, hence the 2 223 values. Those are wrong, but not quistis hands. Look at the EU hacking guide on Gamefaqs if you are curious to see which cards are which.

12 49 54 15 13
16 21 12 17 18
20 49 12 54 13
12 11 46 45 19
49 50 14 48 18
52 11 48 50 20
44 50 48 52 15
48 45 16 44 15
19 17 50 46 49
11 45 18 49 17
15 18 51 50 11
18 46 53 20 21
21 18 20 12 51
46 54 14 18 53
51 19 21 17 52
54 46 12 19 49
19 45 11 54 14
17 13 48 11 12
20 15 44 45 17
13 14 15 18 49
16 53 15 20 45
53 15 50 45 52
46 54 17 51 52
49 15 51 17 14
53 54 51 52 13
45 16 20 54 15
15 54 53 46 14
19 16 21 48 44
12 44 50 15 54
15 17 45 53 11
52 11 12 16 46
44 50 46 14 12
12 14 16 17 44
51 50 15 18 12
11 12 48 21 19
14 51 17 12 13
18 13 50 15 20
11 51 18 17 14
13 19 21 51 45
50 52 53 11 15
53 14 20 46 11
46 19 54 49 15
50 11 51 45 14
103 20 11 53 51
103 13 45 44 21
103 16 20 13 52
103 19 48 50 46
103 45 21 52 53
103 49 48 15 44
103 52 21 49 13
103 45 49 17 15
103 49 21 50 18
103 18 16 52 20
103 11 44 19 12
103 15 17 53 14
103 18 44 20 16
103 44 17 11 19
103 48 45 44 21
103 50 18 12 46
103 54 45 46 48
103 14 18 50 21
103 17 46 14 53
103 21 18 49 44
103 14 46 16 17
103 17 52 50 49
103 53 14 50 51
103 45 52 19 54
103 49 14 52 45
103 53 20 15 13
103 12 15 54 17
103 16 53 44 19
103 20 15 11 21
103 11 54 45 13
103 48 15 13 16
103 52 54 14 18
103 44 49 20 45
103 48 11 16 12
103 52 49 45 14
103 21 11 17 50
103 14 50 17 52
103 18 11 52 44
103 21 50 19 46
103 12 53 48 54
103 51 54 49 16
103 54 12 11 53
103 46 50 44 45
103 17 45 13 12
103 20 18 46 16
103 13 45 19 46
103 16 18 14 21
103 20 46 49 13
103 46 18 16 15
103 48 46 17 15
103 52 19 51 20
103 45 19 11 16
103 15 19 52 14
103 19 20 49 17
103 12 53 21 52
103 15 14 44 18
103 51 53 11 46
44 15 46 49 19
54 13 51 14 16
51 15 14 53 20
44 54 48 45 15
14 16 21 12 13
17 44 49 50 16
21 16 50 19 12
13 44 18 21 50
50 17 52 13 45
54 11 19 15 51
46 50 54 18 48
50 12 54 20 52
19 51 11 12 46
12 44 14 53 46
16 51 13 48 21
19 13 52 44 53
12 51 54 49 52
49 13 15 46 45
52 49 48 50 16
44 14 16 50 45
48 19 17 53 51
18 51 44 46 12
11 20 19 52 44
15 48 52 49 20
18 20 54 51 21
44 48 21 15 50
21 44 12 11 16
50 48 12 15 16
54 21 46 17 12
49 46 19 17 45
17 11 14 12 16
21 16 48 13 18
13 44 16 53 51
16 17 18 20 13
53 44 51 14 50
45 17 18 21 49
49 45 52 15 21
53 18 19 50 11
12 45 21 52 16
15 18 54 12 11
19 46 11 17 21
11 19 45 48 52
15 13 46 51 52
52 13 53 46 17
44 14 12 53 48
48 52 15 14 54
51 14 49 16 54
21 53 49 19 48
14 15 18 21 44
18 53 51 13 49
21 15 19 45 52
54 53 17 51 46
50 16 54 20 45
53 54 21 44 52
46 49 44 53 16
50 11 12 49 53
20 49 13 51 44
13 11 46 54 21
16 50 15 45 20
19 12 48 11 51
45 50 16 17 14
48 12 16 52 11
52 51 11 18 15
45 12 18 13 21
15 51 52 16 19
19 46 53 18 13
11 19 21 20 54
14 46 54 12 19
18 19 12 14 21
44 45 17 16 49
20 46 19 11 48
11 20 19 52 44
44 20 48 46 11
13 48 15 18 44
17 20 16 51 45
21 48 50 53 52
13 54 18 45 46
50 16 51 53 17
54 19 49 48 46
45 16 20 52 54
49 44 54 13 19
103 48 15 13 16
12 44 45 15 50
16 17 45 44 20
223 137 223 155 223
12 17 46 11 45
48 45 15 14 52
223 137 223 155 223
44 13 49 18 53
48 50 17 21 13
18 12 51 54 20
11 51 18 49 16
15 12 20 51 11
17 51 53 19 16
21 13 45 11 51
52 54 18 49 17
50 13 12 15 45
54 52 12 19 51
14 46 54 12 50
16 19 14 46 20
20 48 15 54 13
13 20 48 18 21
16 48 20 19 50
53 20 50 11 17
45 48 18 14 17
49 21 51 16 12
52 49 53 19 18
44 21 20 46 45
15 49 54 13 52
19 11 21 15 44
11 16 45 50 53
15 44 45 53 48
52 17 13 44 54
54 45 49 48 50
17 15 49 44 12
51 45 15 50 12
21 18 50 54 45
14 45 17 51 54
18 51 48 46 20
21 46 18 17 52
13 19 50 49 52
50 13 53 11 16
53 52 20 13 48
46 14 44 16 51
50 53 44 18 16
20 14 12 11 15
12 53 45 17 54
15 14 12 19 16
19 53 17 18 21
45 15 48 52 13
48 54 16 19 15
52 16 50 46 14
45 54 17 48 21
103 49 19 51 15
103 18 11 52 53
103 11 50 20 44
103 14 11 53 52
103 18 50 11 49
103 44 12 11 19
103 50 45 21 18
103 50 12 13 14
103 54 51 15 53
103 13 17 44 51
103 17 51 15 20
103 21 46 49 11
103 13 19 17 14
103 17 46 50 16
103 53 19 52 18
44 50 46 14 12
103 49 20 53 45
103 52 20 48 12
103 12 20 11 50
103 16 48 44 52
103 18 21 12 44
103 11 48 46 54
103 48 54 14 49

Here is a list of all 255 hands that Trepie in the cafeteria can have - Note that card 103 is Quistis. Interesting that her card clumps together. Also, I accidentally hit cancel during the script, hence the 2 223 values. Those are wrong, but not quistis hands. Look at the EU hacking guide on Gamefaqs if you are curious to see which cards are which.

12 49 54 15 13
16 21 12 17 18
20 49 12 54 13
12 11 46 45 19
49 50 14 48 18
52 11 48 50 20
44 50 48 52 15
48 45 16 44 15
19 17 50 46 49
11 45 18 49 17
15 18 51 50 11
18 46 53 20 21
21 18 20 12 51
46 54 14 18 53
51 19 21 17 52
54 46 12 19 49
19 45 11 54 14
17 13 48 11 12
20 15 44 45 17
13 14 15 18 49
16 53 15 20 45
53 15 50 45 52
46 54 17 51 52
49 15 51 17 14
53 54 51 52 13
45 16 20 54 15
15 54 53 46 14
19 16 21 48 44
12 44 50 15 54
15 17 45 53 11
52 11 12 16 46
44 50 46 14 12
12 14 16 17 44
51 50 15 18 12
11 12 48 21 19
14 51 17 12 13
18 13 50 15 20
11 51 18 17 14
13 19 21 51 45
50 52 53 11 15
53 14 20 46 11
46 19 54 49 15
50 11 51 45 14
103 20 11 53 51
103 13 45 44 21
103 16 20 13 52
103 19 48 50 46
103 45 21 52 53
103 49 48 15 44
103 52 21 49 13
103 45 49 17 15
103 49 21 50 18
103 18 16 52 20
103 11 44 19 12
103 15 17 53 14
103 18 44 20 16
103 44 17 11 19
103 48 45 44 21
103 50 18 12 46
103 54 45 46 48
103 14 18 50 21
103 17 46 14 53
103 21 18 49 44
103 14 46 16 17
103 17 52 50 49
103 53 14 50 51
103 45 52 19 54
103 49 14 52 45
103 53 20 15 13
103 12 15 54 17
103 16 53 44 19
103 20 15 11 21
103 11 54 45 13
103 48 15 13 16
103 52 54 14 18
103 44 49 20 45
103 48 11 16 12
103 52 49 45 14
103 21 11 17 50
103 14 50 17 52
103 18 11 52 44
103 21 50 19 46
103 12 53 48 54
103 51 54 49 16
103 54 12 11 53
103 46 50 44 45
103 17 45 13 12
103 20 18 46 16
103 13 45 19 46
103 16 18 14 21
103 20 46 49 13
103 46 18 16 15
103 48 46 17 15
103 52 19 51 20
103 45 19 11 16
103 15 19 52 14
103 19 20 49 17
103 12 53 21 52
103 15 14 44 18
103 51 53 11 46
44 15 46 49 19
54 13 51 14 16
51 15 14 53 20
44 54 48 45 15
14 16 21 12 13
17 44 49 50 16
21 16 50 19 12
13 44 18 21 50
50 17 52 13 45
54 11 19 15 51
46 50 54 18 48
50 12 54 20 52
19 51 11 12 46
12 44 14 53 46
16 51 13 48 21
19 13 52 44 53
12 51 54 49 52
49 13 15 46 45
52 49 48 50 16
44 14 16 50 45
48 19 17 53 51
18 51 44 46 12
11 20 19 52 44
15 48 52 49 20
18 20 54 51 21
44 48 21 15 50
21 44 12 11 16
50 48 12 15 16
54 21 46 17 12
49 46 19 17 45
17 11 14 12 16
21 16 48 13 18
13 44 16 53 51
16 17 18 20 13
53 44 51 14 50
45 17 18 21 49
49 45 52 15 21
53 18 19 50 11
12 45 21 52 16
15 18 54 12 11
19 46 11 17 21
11 19 45 48 52
15 13 46 51 52
52 13 53 46 17
44 14 12 53 48
48 52 15 14 54
51 14 49 16 54
21 53 49 19 48
14 15 18 21 44
18 53 51 13 49
21 15 19 45 52
54 53 17 51 46
50 16 54 20 45
53 54 21 44 52
46 49 44 53 16
50 11 12 49 53
20 49 13 51 44
13 11 46 54 21
16 50 15 45 20
19 12 48 11 51
45 50 16 17 14
48 12 16 52 11
52 51 11 18 15
45 12 18 13 21
15 51 52 16 19
19 46 53 18 13
11 19 21 20 54
14 46 54 12 19
18 19 12 14 21
44 45 17 16 49
20 46 19 11 48
11 20 19 52 44
44 20 48 46 11
13 48 15 18 44
17 20 16 51 45
21 48 50 53 52
13 54 18 45 46
50 16 51 53 17
54 19 49 48 46
45 16 20 52 54
49 44 54 13 19
103 48 15 13 16
12 44 45 15 50
16 17 45 44 20
223 137 223 155 223
12 17 46 11 45
48 45 15 14 52
223 137 223 155 223
44 13 49 18 53
48 50 17 21 13
18 12 51 54 20
11 51 18 49 16
15 12 20 51 11
17 51 53 19 16
21 13 45 11 51
52 54 18 49 17
50 13 12 15 45
54 52 12 19 51
14 46 54 12 50
16 19 14 46 20
20 48 15 54 13
13 20 48 18 21
16 48 20 19 50
53 20 50 11 17
45 48 18 14 17
49 21 51 16 12
52 49 53 19 18
44 21 20 46 45
15 49 54 13 52
19 11 21 15 44
11 16 45 50 53
15 44 45 53 48
52 17 13 44 54
54 45 49 48 50
17 15 49 44 12
51 45 15 50 12
21 18 50 54 45
14 45 17 51 54
18 51 48 46 20
21 46 18 17 52
13 19 50 49 52
50 13 53 11 16
53 52 20 13 48
46 14 44 16 51
50 53 44 18 16
20 14 12 11 15
12 53 45 17 54
15 14 12 19 16
19 53 17 18 21
45 15 48 52 13
48 54 16 19 15
52 16 50 46 14
45 54 17 48 21
103 49 19 51 15
103 18 11 52 53
103 11 50 20 44
103 14 11 53 52
103 18 50 11 49
103 44 12 11 19
103 50 45 21 18
103 50 12 13 14
103 54 51 15 53
103 13 17 44 51
103 17 51 15 20
103 21 46 49 11
103 13 19 17 14
103 17 46 50 16
103 53 19 52 18
44 50 46 14 12
103 49 20 53 45
103 52 20 48 12
103 12 20 11 50
103 16 48 44 52
103 18 21 12 44
103 11 48 46 54
103 48 54 14 49

Poxnor

2011-04-23 10:51:11 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from DarkKobold:

Poxnor: I have a script that could do a quick dump, and tell you the probability of each hand, if you'd like.

I would love to know that -- I've searched everywhere I could find, and I couldn't come up with a proper answer. And, to find out manually (with any reasonable error bounds) would have taken something like 520 games with each player (uggh). Thank you so much, DarkKobold!

By the way, my belief after playing far too much Triple Triad is that the entropy source that determines which hand an opponent plays is based on the number of frames that progress between when the Triple Triad screen comes up and when you choose to play against the opponents (i.e., confirming your selection in the first menu that appears while the Triple Triad music is playing). Do you know if this is correct, or is the entropy source even more complex (or, dare I wish it, simpler)?

If there were some way to manipulate the opponent into playing a desired card, that would change the entire core of an SS run...

[quote="DarkKobold"]Poxnor: I have a script that could do a quick dump, and tell you the probability of each hand, if you'd like. [/quote]
I would love to know that -- I've searched everywhere I could find, and I couldn't come up with a proper answer.  And, to find out manually (with any reasonable error bounds) would have taken something like 520 games with each player (uggh).  Thank you so much, DarkKobold!

By the way, my belief after playing far too much Triple Triad is that the entropy source that determines which hand an opponent plays is based on the number of frames that progress between when the Triple Triad screen comes up and when you choose to play against the opponents (i.e., confirming your selection in the first menu that appears while the Triple Triad music is playing).  Do you know if this is correct, or is the entropy source even more complex (or, dare I wish it, simpler)?

If there were some way to manipulate the opponent into playing a desired card, that would change the entire core of an SS run...

Poxnor

2011-04-23 10:53:02 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from DarkKobold:

Here is a list of all 255 hands that Trepie in the cafeteria can have

Thank you so much, DarkKobold! I owe you beer, should we ever meet in-person! Smiley

Now, here's an interesting question. Do all the Trepies play the same hands (as I suspected), or does one of the Trepies actually give better odds of playing the Quisits card than the others?

DarkKobold

Edit history:

DarkKobold: 2011-04-23 10:57:51 pm

2011-04-23 10:53:27 pm

RPG TASer

I'd have to know where the other trepies are >_<

Also, the randomization is the number of frames in the 'play/quit' window. The cards for the player hand, as well as who goes first is chosen right then.

However, with my repeated starting over of the TAS, I believe it uses a universal RNG, so you'd have to know the state going into that card battle screen.

Poxnor

2011-04-23 11:02:07 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

If I recall correctly, the other two Trepies are in the 2F classroom.

If you could post the complete hands played by all three Trepies (assuming there is any difference), as well as by Zell's Ma, that could allow for some serious optimization in the SS route regarding which Trepie to play (e.g., maybe one doesn't play Quistis quite as often, but uses lower-level helper cards) and whether or not it is worth playing Zell's mom.

I don't know how to thank you for this information Smiley

Poxnor

2011-04-23 11:04:13 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from DarkKobold:

Also, the randomization is the number of frames in the 'play/quit' window. The cards for the player hand, as well as who goes first is chosen right then. However, with my repeated starting over of the TAS, I believe it uses a universal RNG, so you'd have to know the state going into that card battle screen.

Ack, that's what I feared. With all those Quistis cards grouped together, it wouldn't have been hard to manipulate the play of that card, except for the fact that the PRNG state is indeterminate going into that play/quit window. Blast Smiley