Final Fantasy VII

2011-08-20 11:34:34 am

Professional Second Banana

Has anyone worked out a non-Lucky 7 speed strat for Materia Keeper? RaneofSoTN and I are currently working on an SS route for when we run FF7 at the next AGDQ marathon, and are currently trying to work out a consistent battle plan for MK (I'd imagine that ODINS and other "no save" challenges for FF7 can't depend on Lucky 7's either).

Some ideas that I've been tossing around include:

Stopping by Gongaga after Gold Saucer to get the Deathblow materia (Reno and Rude would have to be fought, but they should be easy enough with a Right Arm) earlier, so the Powersoul can be used on MK
Learning Big Guard after Gold Saucer, so the party can be Hasted against MK
Grinding a couple of M-Tentacles from Sneaky Steps in the Cave of the Gi to use on MK (along with casting Bio as needed to make sure MK gets poisoned ASAP)
Bringing Aerith so she can counter Trine with Healing Wind
Giving someone Elemental-Lightning on their armor to reduce Trine damage
Buying a second Restore materia and picking up the All materia on the Shinra Boat, so all 3 characters can heal

Thanks!

Has anyone worked out a non-Lucky 7 speed strat for Materia Keeper?  RaneofSoTN and I are currently working on an SS route for when we run FF7 at the next AGDQ marathon, and are currently trying to work out a consistent battle plan for MK (I'd imagine that ODINS and other "no save" challenges for FF7 can't depend on Lucky 7's either).

Some ideas that I've been tossing around include:

Stopping by Gongaga after Gold Saucer to get the Deathblow materia (Reno and Rude would have to be fought, but they should be easy enough with a Right Arm) earlier, so the Powersoul can be used on MK
Learning Big Guard after Gold Saucer, so the party can be Hasted against MK
Grinding a couple of M-Tentacles from Sneaky Steps in the Cave of the Gi to use on MK (along with casting Bio as needed to make sure MK gets poisoned ASAP)
Bringing Aerith so she can counter Trine with Healing Wind
Giving someone Elemental-Lightning on their armor to reduce Trine damage
Buying a second Restore materia and picking up the All materia on the Shinra Boat, so all 3 characters can heal

Thanks!

puwexil

2011-08-20 11:55:47 pm

Professional Second Banana

Stealing extra Right Arms at Mt. Nibel seems like the way to go (originally thought that they dealt fire damage, which MK absorbs, but Lag.Com informed me that Right Arms actually do "shoot" elemental damage) - I was just able to beat MK on my first during my practice stream try by poisoning it and then using 4 Right Arms.

The other bosses that look like they'll require some different strats for single-segment consistency are Demon's Gate, Schizo, and Carry Armor - I'll play around with them as I get to them.

nitwit

2011-08-21 07:13:44 am

http://www.geocities.jp/agnesboulangerchan/ff7/intrta08h48m57s/ff7intrta-chart.txt

8:48:57 RTA by ping_values; timing is from power-on to the appearance of the FFVII logo following all of the credits. By SDA timing it would be 8:31 ish or a bit less. It's fairly detailed and the Google traslation is relatively comprehensible.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/finalfantasy7/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-36219315&pid=197341&page=0

You can find lolo's route for his SS in the above topic. His time at the bottom of the Nothern Crater was 9:08. It was by his admission improvable.

Lolo actually fought four random battles in the Nibel area, not for survival vs. MK, used Bio and spent the remainder of the fight defending and healing. Ping_values did not fight any extra battles, gave Cloud Elemental-Lightning, and too used Bio plus defending and healing; if MK opened the battle with Trine it was apparently still survivable.

There are a number of differences between the two runs. The biggest difference is lolo's grinding the Wutai area vs. ping_values not grinding. I suspect that the method used by ping_values is faster if less reliable (I think sneak attack Lapis Laser would end his run, and double/critical rock drops used Demon's Gate would be problematic as well.)
Technically, ping_values' run is also not single-segment as he used a hard reset in order to avoid an encounter with Bandits in Corel Prison. I think he also used resets to dodge the MidgarZolom.

http://www.geocities.jp/agnesboulangerchan/ff7/intrta08h48m57s/ff7intrta-chart.txt

8:48:57 RTA by ping_values; timing is from power-on to the appearance of the FFVII logo following all of the credits.  By SDA timing it would be 8:31 ish or a bit less.  It's fairly detailed and the Google traslation is relatively comprehensible.

http://www.gamespot.com/ps/rpg/finalfantasy7/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-36219315&pid=197341&page=0

You can find lolo's route for his SS in the above topic.  His time at the bottom of the Nothern Crater was 9:08.  It was by his admission improvable.

Lolo actually fought four random battles in the Nibel area, not for survival vs. MK, used Bio and spent the remainder of the fight defending and healing.  Ping_values did not fight any extra battles, gave Cloud Elemental-Lightning, and too used Bio plus defending and healing; if MK opened the battle with Trine it was apparently still survivable.

There are a number of differences between the two runs.  The biggest difference is lolo's grinding the Wutai area vs. ping_values not grinding.   I suspect that the method used by ping_values is faster if less reliable (I think sneak attack Lapis Laser would end his run, and double/critical rock drops used Demon's Gate would be problematic as well.)
Technically, ping_values' run is also not single-segment as he used a hard reset in order to avoid an encounter with Bandits in Corel Prison.  I think he also used resets to dodge the MidgarZolom.

nitwit

2011-08-21 08:04:56 am

It's possible that ping_values already had Cross Slash by Materia Keeper.

spikevegeta

2011-08-21 08:18:26 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I found an RTA on Nico Video if you guys haven't seen it yet. I'm sure you guys could find some useful stuff from it, although it's a long watch.

http://www.nicovideo.jp/search/FF7%20RTA

BrutalAl

2011-08-24 01:40:31 pm

In short and simplified.
The route lolo used is designed to work every time. The one ping used is only designed to work given enough/several attempts.

If you've got the free time and patience to regularly sit and play for hours, and are only looking for the best in-game time possible you need to take a lot of chances and thus go with a route like the one ping used.
If you're looking for being able to consistently produce good times you will want to use a route more similar to the one lolo used.

Nulien

2011-08-25 05:41:56 pm

Unfortunately, it's looking like I won't be finishing my speedrun. I've had to replace my old computer, as it was pretty much dead from old age... but I'm unable to hook my DexDrive up to this one, which means no way to get my save files back on to my memory card, unless I can get my hands on a computer that I can hook it up to.

drftghj

2011-08-27 05:53:47 pm

No need to stop the project and start whining Wink

first, try Dexter: http://www.neillcorlett.com/dexter/
If it doesn't work, there's still the option of using virtualization.

If you lack a serial port there's enough ways to get one, USB adapters are one of those ways.

puwexil

2011-08-27 06:27:00 pm

Professional Second Banana

Thanks guys! Consistency is the name of the game for a live marathon run, so I'll concentrate on lolo's notes and see what I can find.

MexiricanBassMonkey

2011-10-27 01:06:49 am

It was really fun watching your SS stream, puwexil! I do have a question about one of your strats. (You answered it during stream, but I'm having a hard time understanding it in the past broadcast) I know in the second reactor you were trying to get Cloud's limit to get Cross Blade soon, so I was wondering how many Bravers should you perform on GS, how many before/on Air Buster, and at what point do you plan to have Cross Blade by?

puwexil

2011-10-27 07:45:33 am

Professional Second Banana

Hey, thanks for the compliment! Here's my Braver route (it takes 8 Bravers to learn Cross-Slash) - having to grind for a Limit in the 2nd reactor was due to me experimenting with using Braver on Guard Scorpion after it lowered its tail, which was a mistake.

1 time on Guard Scorpion, if it targets Cloud with its first 2 turns and gives him a Limit Break (so that after using Braver I'll be able to trigger Tail Laser to mostly refill Cloud's Limit bar) - I learned the hard way last weekend that once in a while 2 attacks on Cloud doesn't give him a Limit Cry

1 time on Air Buster
1 time on Dark Nation (Rufus' dog)
3-4 times on Jenova-Birth (when in Fury status, most of Jenova's attacks will mostly refill Cloud's Limit bar)
1-2 times on the Stingers (by having Cloud attack 4th or 5th to trigger Sting Bomb)

On most runs I'll learn Cross-Slash after the 1st or 2nd Stinger; but if I don't due to bad luck on both Guard Scorpion and Jenova-Birth, I'll definitely learn it when grinding for EXP on the Wutai continent (by using the last Braver on one of the random battles). Having Cross-Slash against Palmer is nice so I can slow him down a bit and catch up on healing (he can be a little dangerous if he attacks the same character multiple times in a row), but I can live without it there.

Hey, thanks for the compliment!  Here's my Braver route (it takes 8 Bravers to learn Cross-Slash) - having to grind for a Limit in the 2nd reactor was due to me experimenting with using Braver on Guard Scorpion after it lowered its tail, which was a mistake.

1 time on Guard Scorpion, if it targets Cloud with its first 2 turns and gives him a Limit Break (so that after using Braver I'll be able to trigger Tail Laser to mostly refill Cloud's Limit bar) - I learned the hard way last weekend that once in a while 2 attacks on Cloud doesn't give him a Limit :'(
1 time on Air Buster
1 time on Dark Nation (Rufus' dog)
3-4 times on Jenova-Birth (when in Fury status, most of Jenova's attacks will mostly refill Cloud's Limit bar)
1-2 times on the Stingers (by having Cloud attack 4th or 5th to trigger Sting Bomb)

On most runs I'll learn Cross-Slash after the 1st or 2nd Stinger; but if I don't due to bad luck on both Guard Scorpion and Jenova-Birth, I'll definitely learn it when grinding for EXP on the Wutai continent (by using the last Braver on one of the random battles).  Having Cross-Slash against Palmer is nice so I can slow him down a bit and catch up on healing (he can be a little dangerous if he attacks the same character multiple times in a row), but I can live without it there.

dynamitejoe

2011-12-07 05:54:08 pm

Boom went this dynamite

Suggestion-
If you get the highwind before carry armor (I don't remember), you could spend 3 minutes and go get the Quadra-magic materia... Pair that with something strong. Also, its not at all hard to glitch to that terrain. All the guides ive seen do a lousy job of explaining it though. Big Guard is a great idea. I've only once done a playthrough where i haven't felt like getting it.
Nulien, i believe you can use a PS3 to load it from USB stick to a ps1/2 mem card. I'm certain you can use an Action Replay to pull off from ps1 card, to usb stick.

Toothache

2011-12-08 03:32:45 pm

Let the music play!

Quadra Magic is a terrible idea for a SPEEDrun. Not only is magic use pretty slow, quadrupling that time is even worse. You get far better damage output with Tifa Powersoul + Curse Ring + Deathblow (+low HP)

dynamitejoe

2011-12-08 04:01:42 pm

Boom went this dynamite

i know that. The problem with Powersoul on a single segment, is that if you get a string of bad luck, you could be screwed. i know, don't use DBlow. you only get x8 instead of x16, but it would not be luck-dependent. Also, what if you can't steal the curse ring from Weapon?

puwexil

2011-12-08 04:03:05 pm

Professional Second Banana

Ultima + MP Turbo + W-Magic is a good combo too. That combined with the Tifa Powersoul setup (including the Mystile that gives Deathblow 100% accuracy) takes down the endgame bosses in 4 turns or less.

For my single-segment route I do the short sidequest at Mideel to get a Curse Ring so I don't have to rely on steal luck.

dynamitejoe

2011-12-08 04:08:03 pm

Boom went this dynamite

hm. Forgot that you could get it that way. MP turbo is good; but do you have ultima usable by carry armor? I worry about C.A. specifically, because it is always hard, on anything but a normal run. and you don't get the mystile until the Midgar Return.
I'll look at the A.I. mechanics for D.Gate and schizo.

dynamitejoe

2011-12-08 04:44:26 pm

Boom went this dynamite

AI findings:
Carry armor:
Lapis laser is non-elem; so you can pair ultima-elemental in armor to protect, even if ultima is not active. I think. If its added effect, get that from cave of gi. going out of your way for that would guarantee the death-sentence-getting battle. Back to CA. when the main body's hp goes down, it has a higher chance of using L.L. it starts at 25% chance, and at less than 1/4 hp, it will spam 100%. similarly, the arms have a higher chance of grabbing when they get low on hp. on the first turn, its 1/16. it then defaults to 1/128 (weird)at less than 1/4 hp, it has a 50% chance. if an arm is not full, it has a 50% chance of punching.

Schizo: when you kill one head, the other spams its element at everybody. this happening immediately after the other one's final attack; maybe find a way to kill simultaneously. the combined final attack is stronger, but then you don't have to worry about the other one. if you don't, i seem to remember you can make each person resistant or absorbing to one element, maybe: (#1=first head you kill)
make whoever isn't cloud or tifa weak to the final head regardless, they don't need the xp as importantly. make tifa weak to #1, cause x2 for crit health means she'll die anyway. Make her strong to the second one, cause if she dies, no xp, and that isn't good.

AI findings:
Carry armor:
Lapis laser is non-elem; so you can pair ultima-elemental in armor to protect, even if ultima is not active. I think. If its added effect, get that from cave of gi. going out of your way for that would guarantee the death-sentence-getting battle. Back to CA. when the main body's hp goes down, it has a higher chance of using L.L. it starts at 25% chance, and at less than 1/4 hp, it will spam 100%. similarly, the arms have a higher chance of grabbing when they get low on hp. on the first turn, its 1/16. it then defaults to 1/128 (weird)at less than 1/4 hp, it has a 50% chance. if an arm is not full, it has a 50% chance of punching.

Schizo: when you kill one head, the other spams its element at everybody. this happening immediately after the other one's final attack; maybe find a way to kill simultaneously. the combined final attack is stronger, but then you don't have to worry about the other one. if you don't,  i seem to remember you can make each person resistant or absorbing to one element, maybe: (#1=first head you kill)
make whoever isn't cloud or tifa weak to the final head regardless, they don't need the xp as importantly. make tifa weak to #1, cause x2 for crit health means she'll die anyway. Make her strong to the second one, cause if she dies, no xp, and that isn't good.

puwexil

2011-12-08 05:24:03 pm

Professional Second Banana

Carry Armor and Schizo can actually be nerfed by draining their MP using Magic Hammer (2 MH's for Carry Armor's body and 4 for each of Schizo's heads) - Schizo is unable to do anything at all other than its final attack without MP.

Even after it's no longer able to use Lapis Laser, Carry Armor is still somewhat dangerous until its arms are gone, which a couple rounds of Magic Breath spam will take care of.

(shoutout to lolo26 for developing these SS boss strats)

dynamitejoe

2011-12-09 07:58:40 am

Boom went this dynamite

yep. Magic hammer ftw. aren't you going to wutai anyway to grind, so no time wasted. a lot of the wutai enemies like to drop x-potions, so no shortage there. Magic breath is good for C.A, i always forget about that one.
were you going to pick up another E.S? it would make MHing things go faster. Time it right, and you don't even have to worry about running out of mp for Magic Breath. MAgic hammering is one of my favorite things to do. when i did a LLIENANENLBNPACMO run (basically enemy skills, stealing, and items only), magic hammering was an essential part, you can even beat ruby and emerald that way.

antd

2012-01-16 03:55:12 pm

I have a glitch that will save a lot of time. But I'm unsure if it would be accepted here.
It is very glitched and very boring (all battles escaped, including bosses). However, plays through the whole game.

Also, the player must first play until disc 2 in order to set up the glitch, and once the glitch has been performed the actual speed run will start after selecting 'new game'. Is this allowed?

Rakuen

2012-01-16 04:08:33 pm

Weegee Time

If one file is used to manipulate another file, then I believe the time of both files combined is used to determine the run's time.

antd

2012-01-16 04:12:17 pm

Would it not be considered new game+ ?

Creaphis

2012-01-16 10:14:02 pm

"New game+" gets thrown around a lot on these forums. Personally I would reserve that category label for when a game actually has a "new game+" feature intentionally built in. In this case I think you would need to add both times like Rakuen says.

antd

2012-01-16 10:38:28 pm

How about loading from a memory card, quit, and selecting new game. Would this be allowed?

puwexil

2012-01-16 10:54:32 pm

Professional Second Banana

I agree with Creaphis. Personally, I would only consider "new game+" to mean using an alternative play mode built into the game, where you play the game as normal but get to carry over equipment or other attributes from a previous save file.

I know there have been some similar discussions with Earthbound since you can use a separate save file to affect your primary file (primarily triggering the out-of-bounds glitch); and I believe the decision was that it would be allowed as long as time spent building the alternate save file is counted toward the full run time.