Final Fantasy VI general discussion

2012-05-28 11:27:14 pm

Obscure games ftw

just so you know brassmaster, there are 2 FFVI TASes on TASVideos (technically)- the FFVI TAS and the FFV/FFVI '2 games 1 input' TAS, which is actually faster due to some route changes.

brassmaster

2012-05-29 03:44:47 am

Thanks, I have no name, I am aware of that second run, but it uses an equipment glitch that isn't present in the version I have. I'm going to write a route based on the TAS by Erokky and then check it over with that one for any possible improvements. My plan is to have the route written to the end before I start running it.

brassmaster

2012-06-02 02:42:30 pm

I apologize for not starting to get my route up here sooner, I am planning on uploading it before I start to run it, but silly me is starting to work on this at the same time I am getting ready to move to a different state. I do have a question regarding Whelk. I know the chances are unlikely, but is it possible non-TAS to get him before he goes into his shell? if it is, is it worth it to go for it?

Essentia

2012-06-02 04:31:36 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

It is possible to kill Whelk before he goes into his shell; I've done it twice, but it required a lot of luck (Terra has to get the first turn, no one can get slimed, and everyone hit has to do almost maximum damage). However, that was before I changed my route so that Terra gets all the experience in all the Narshe battles. I'm not sure if it's possible to do enough damage before he goes into his shell if Vicks and Wedge haven't gained any levels.

brassmaster

Edit history:

brassmaster: 2012-07-22 04:18:56 pm

brassmaster: 2012-07-18 06:54:56 pm

brassmaster: 2012-07-18 06:06:54 pm

brassmaster: 2012-07-18 05:19:32 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-13 12:45:23 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-13 12:29:24 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 02:39:27 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 02:33:39 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 02:03:36 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 01:56:11 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 01:28:39 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 01:10:39 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 12:53:31 pm

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 12:13:18 pm

2012-06-10 10:36:13 am

Segmented route. This is a work in progress and I will be editing this post while changes are made. if you see anything that should be altered, feel free to let me know. I welcome all input.

Segment 1
Set Battle mode to wait, Bat speed to 6, msg speed to 1.
Have the other two run after/while terra uses Bio Blast on the first battle
Avoid middle tile for second fight
The surrounded fight, everyone gains a level on the TAS, might be needed for whelk.
The now third fight (going up the stairs to the cave) is the same as the first, Terra Bio Blast.
Save just inside the cave. (TAS gets into 1 fight for exp, no levels gained)

Segment 2
Luck manipulate Whelk to not go in his shell for a “one cycle” fight
Vicks and Wedge use Bolt Beam, Terra use TekMissle. (two rounds of attacks on TAS)
I’m not sure about luck manipulating X fights through the cave after you name Terra, but I’ll save here anyway because of the whelk fight manipulation. (TAS gets into 1 fight before the save for exp, no levels gained)

Segment 3
Minimize battles (TAS gets into 1 fight, gains 1 level)
Move group 1 out of the way, switch to group two and dodge enemies to go straight to the “boss”. unequip during fight
Save on the Overworld

Segment 4
Walk to Figaro castle. Luck manipulate 0 fights
Walk straight back, talk to edgar.
Walk down to get back outside, enter left door and down the stairs, then to the left tower and talk to the Matron.
Walk back and talk to edgar again.
Go to the right tower.
For the fight, autocrossbow, (TAS steals a potion), and autocrossbow. Have terra NOT use magic to avoid dialogue.
Walk on chocobo to the cave, save

Segment 5
Hit the recovery spring
Manipulate fights X3, autocrossbow them (no levels gained on TAS, fought for exp), equip locke during fights
Save on overworld

Segment 6
Walk to South Figaro, manipulate 0 fights
Go to the inn, buy 2 sprint shoes, equip one on terra
grab chocobo, go to Mt. Kolts, save outside.

Segment 7
Luck manipulate fights. Only fight what I can autocrossbow. – aka, avoid Brawlers. Go get Atlas Armlet.
Save at save point

Segment 8
Manipulate few fights (looks like every character leveled up on the TAS, but I can’t view frame by frame to see exactly what happened)
For the boss fight, autocrossbow, fight, and Fire for the bears. have one character go into low health and manipulate a desperation attack.
Use Pummel to finish the fight
Exit to overworld, save

Segment 9
Manipulate 1 Rhodox fight to the hideout, save

Segment 10
Go talk to Banon
Talk to Locke, grab the fenix down in chest (although, this might not be needed)
Talk to edgar, save

Segment 11
talk to sabin
get items in north room
Say no to Banon 3 times
Put sprint shoes on Sabin
Jump on raft
Autocrossbow/fire the battles
At the Paths go left, skip the save.
At the path, go left, there’s aonther save here, save.

Segment 12
Ultros time! Everybody “fight”, then Terra uses a desperation attack.
Save before I chose a path of three.

Segment 13
Choose Locke’s path
Equip sprint shoes on Locke while paused when doing the clip.
Enter back door, go to earrings chest, minimize fights.
Grab 1000 and 500 gp chests.
Get Celes.
Take key from guard.
Go back to the back door, getting the 1500 gp chest on the way to wind the clock. Minimize fights
Leave the town, save.

Segment 14
Go to cave, north west.
Minimize fights in cave.
Boss fight, steal “air lancet”?, desperation attack from Celes.
Save

Segment 15
Banon’s path
Minimize fights on river and overworld
Go to Narshe and to the hidden entrance to the left.
Use shortcut in security room.
Go to the back door of Arvis’ place.
Save

Segment 16
Sabin’s path
Minimize fights to the camp.
Fight as Cyan, swordtech 2
Use fight on kefka when chasing him
Equip Black Belt relic
Use fight against the 4 soldiers
When aiding Cyan, use fight.
Use firebeam against magitek fights
Exit camp, save

Segment 17
Go to Phantom forest, then train, minimize fights.
Save after releasing back half of train?
Pick up earrings in next car
Pull switches 1 and 3.
Use elixir/phoenix down on train.
Go to cave to the east, save before entering.

Segment 18
Kill on piranha and wait (is it 65 seconds?)
Damage cyan, use desperation attack on Rizopas.
Save.

Segment 19
Walk southeast to town, minimize fights, buy meat.
Get into fight, use meat on and get Gau.
Get a Rhodox fight, gau jump.
Save before entering cave to the south.

Segment 20
Go through cave into river.
River directions: Right, Left.
Imediately take the boat.
Long meeting in Narshe
Save before talking to Banon.

Segment 21
Three teams, (Edgar, Cyan, Sabin), (Terra), (Celes)
Skip all fights, go to Kefka
Everybody fight… desperation attack
Choose team, Edgar and Sabin
Exit to overworld, save.

Segment 22
Go to Figaro
Go down left stairs
Go north east to hidden chocobo stable
Travel to Zozo
Save

Segment 23
Go to “relic” building
Equip both Earrings on Edgar
Dadaluma – Edgar fight, Sabin Aura bolt. Sabin fight, and Edgar desperation attack
Long cutscene
Grab right 2 magicites
Team – Locke, edgar, celes, gau
Exit zozo
Go to Jidoor
Go to back mansion, cutscene and pick up letter
Get chocobo, go to Opera, save

Segment 24
The Opera!
Exit down-right to visit celes
Choices, 1 (oh my hero), 2 (I’m the darkness), 3 (Must I)
Go to the right, flip far right switch
Go to the left side
Avoid as many rats as possible
Ultros fight, Edgar use desperation attack.
Save on overworld next to the airship

LAST UPDATED: 7/22

Segmented route.  This is a work in progress and I will be editing this post while changes are made.  if you see anything that should be altered, feel free to let me know. I welcome all input.

Segment 1
Set Battle mode to wait, Bat speed to 6, msg speed to 1.
Have the other two run after/while terra uses Bio Blast on the first battle
Avoid middle tile for second fight
The surrounded fight, everyone gains a level on the TAS, might be needed for whelk.
The now third fight (going up the stairs to the cave) is the same as the first, Terra Bio Blast.
Save just inside the cave. (TAS gets into 1 fight for exp, no levels gained)

Segment 2
Luck manipulate Whelk to not go in his shell for a “one cycle” fight
Vicks and Wedge use Bolt Beam, Terra use TekMissle. (two rounds of attacks on TAS)
I’m not sure about luck manipulating X fights through the cave after you name Terra, but I’ll save here anyway because of the whelk fight manipulation. (TAS gets into 1 fight before the save for exp, no levels gained)

Segment 3
Minimize battles (TAS gets into 1 fight, gains 1 level)
Move group 1 out of the way, switch to group two and dodge enemies to go straight to the “boss”. unequip during fight
Save on the Overworld

Segment 4
Walk to Figaro castle.  Luck manipulate 0 fights
Walk straight back, talk to edgar.
Walk down to get back outside, enter left door and down the stairs, then to the left tower and talk to the Matron.
Walk back and talk to edgar again.
Go to the right tower.
For the fight, autocrossbow, (TAS steals a potion), and autocrossbow. Have terra NOT use magic to avoid dialogue.
Walk on chocobo to the cave, save

Segment 5
Hit the recovery spring
Manipulate fights X3, autocrossbow them (no levels gained on TAS, fought for exp), equip locke during fights
Save on overworld

Segment 6
Walk to South Figaro, manipulate 0 fights
Go to the inn, buy 2 sprint shoes, equip one on terra
grab chocobo, go to Mt. Kolts, save outside.

Segment 7
Luck manipulate fights. Only fight what I can autocrossbow. – aka, avoid Brawlers. Go get Atlas Armlet.
Save at save point

Segment 8
Manipulate few fights (looks like every character leveled up on the TAS, but I can’t view frame by frame to see exactly what happened)
For the boss fight, autocrossbow, fight, and Fire for the bears. have one character go into low health and manipulate a desperation attack.
Use Pummel to finish the fight
Exit to overworld, save

Segment 9
Manipulate 1 Rhodox fight to the hideout, save

Segment 10
Go talk to Banon
Talk to Locke, grab the fenix down in chest (although, this might not be needed)
Talk to edgar, save

Segment 11
talk to sabin
get items in north room
Say no to Banon 3 times
Put sprint shoes on Sabin
Jump on raft
Autocrossbow/fire the battles
At the Paths go left, skip the save.
At the path, go left,  there’s aonther save here, save.

Segment 12
Ultros time! Everybody “fight”, then Terra uses a desperation attack.
Save before I chose a path of three.

Segment 13
Choose Locke’s path
Equip sprint shoes on Locke while paused when doing the clip.
Enter back door, go to earrings chest, minimize fights.
Grab 1000 and 500 gp chests.
Get Celes.
Take key from guard.
Go back to the back door, getting the 1500 gp chest on the way to wind the clock. Minimize fights
Leave the town, save.

Segment 14
Go to cave, north west.
Minimize fights in cave.
Boss fight, steal “air lancet”?, desperation attack from Celes.
Save

Segment 15
Banon’s path
Minimize fights on river and overworld
Go to Narshe and to the hidden entrance to the left.
Use shortcut in security room.
Go to the back door of Arvis’ place.
Save

Segment 16
Sabin’s path
Minimize fights to the camp.
Fight as Cyan, swordtech 2
Use fight on kefka when chasing him
Equip Black Belt relic
Use fight against the 4 soldiers
When aiding Cyan, use fight.
Use firebeam against magitek fights
Exit camp, save

Segment 17
Go to Phantom forest, then train, minimize fights.
Save after releasing back half of train?
Pick up earrings in next car
Pull switches 1 and 3.
Use elixir/phoenix down on train.
Go to cave to the east, save before entering.

Segment 18
Kill on piranha and wait (is it 65 seconds?)
Damage cyan, use desperation attack on Rizopas.
Save.

Segment 19
Walk southeast to town, minimize fights, buy meat.
Get into fight, use meat on and get Gau.
Get a Rhodox fight, gau jump.
Save before entering cave to the south.

Segment 20
Go through cave into river.
River directions: Right, Left.
Imediately take the boat.
Long meeting in Narshe
Save before talking to Banon.

Segment 21
Three teams, (Edgar, Cyan, Sabin), (Terra), (Celes)
Skip all fights, go to Kefka
Everybody fight… desperation attack
Choose team, Edgar and Sabin
Exit to overworld, save.

Segment 22
Go to Figaro
Go down left stairs
Go north east to hidden chocobo stable
Travel to Zozo
Save

Segment 23
Go to “relic” building
Equip both Earrings on Edgar
Dadaluma – Edgar fight, Sabin Aura bolt. Sabin fight, and Edgar desperation attack
Long cutscene
Grab right 2 magicites
Team – Locke, edgar, celes, gau
Exit zozo
Go to Jidoor
Go to back mansion, cutscene and pick up letter
Get chocobo, go to Opera, save

Segment 24
The Opera!
Exit down-right to visit celes
Choices, 1 (oh my hero), 2 (I’m the darkness), 3 (Must I)
Go to the right, flip far right switch
Go to the left side
Avoid as many rats as possible
Ultros fight, Edgar use desperation attack.
Save on overworld next to the airship

LAST UPDATED: 7/22

Rakuen

2012-06-10 02:16:52 pm

Weegee Time

Quote:

(TAS switches edgar and Terra, any reason?)

According to this post, the character in the lowest slot gets the first turn on a preemptive attack. He's not specifically switching Edgar with Terra, he's moving Edgar into position and Terra happens to be in the way. Smiley

He does this so Edgar can nuke enemies with Xbow as the very first action.

brassmaster

2012-06-10 02:19:40 pm

thanks rakuen! silly me forgot that erokky has submission comments.

Rakuen

Edit history:

Rakuen: 2012-06-10 02:31:04 pm

2012-06-10 02:24:59 pm

Weegee Time

Actually it's not in the submission comments, which are more like a brief synopsis. I'd take a look through that thread I linked for information. From skimming through it, a lot of it is very TAS dependent though.

brassmaster

Edit history:

brassmaster: 2012-06-10 02:49:07 pm

2012-06-10 02:37:18 pm

good to know, I'll definitely read through it. I'll take whatever I can from it. I don't mind luck manipulating some more difficult things, but I understand that some just aren't worth it. I'm gonna take a look at Essentia's run to look at other strats as well. I think I'll look over her run up to this point, then test run it and see how I feel about it before I continue on routing.

Essentia

Edit history:

Essentia: 2012-06-10 09:36:16 pm

2012-06-10 09:35:31 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

Glad to hear you're working on this! I've had some ideas for a segmented route, but never had the ambition to actually start doing one. I've got some comments on your route:

Segment 1: I think the only reason the TAS moves Terra to the 4th position is because they manipulate every Narshe battle to be preemptive, so she will get the first turn. (Like Rakuen said, the person in the 4th spot always gets the first turn in a preemptive or side attack.) In my new SS route, I have Vicks and Wedge run from every battle so that Terra gets all the experience. This allows me to get Terra to level 6 before Locke joins, which makes Locke and Edgar join at one level higher than in my old route. Of course, this might mean that it'll be impossible to kill Whelk before it enters its shell (not enough damage from Vicks and Wedge), so I'm not sure whether you'd want to do that in a segmented run. It's something to test, though.

Segment 2: As I said before, you'll want to test whether it's faster to level up only Terra, or level up all three and kill Whelk before it goes into its shell.

Segment 3: You'll want to get Terra at least to level 5, possibly level 6, without having to take extra steps to get battles. Also, it's faster to take Mog to fight the boss and unequip him during the battle.

Segment 4: It's possible to walk all the way from Narshe to Figaro without any encounters (I've done it). If you don't want to try to do that, in the previous segment you could walk part of the way towards Figaro before saving. There's no reason to save before entering Figaro, so this segment should be combined with Segment 5.

Segment 5: Before saving, you should put Edgar and Locke in the back row (and possibly equip the mithril pike on Edgar, although it might not be needed in a segmented run).

Segment 6: I usually equip the mithril blade and mithril shield on Locke during the battles here; if you do it while Edgar is doing crossbow, it won't cost you any time.

Segment 7: This should be combined with segments 8 and 9, and there should be no encounters on the world map.

Segment 8: You might want to consider buying only 2 sprint shoes, so you can buy more smoke bombs. (I do this in my new SS route.) The TAS didn't need smoke bombs since they manipulated every battle to be preemptive, but you'll need them.

Segment 9: For a segmented run, I'm not sure whether taking a chocobo is worth it or not.

Segment 10: Run from fights until you get the atlas armlet and equip it on Edgar. If you got Terra to level 6 in segment 3, Edgar will be strong enough to kill everything except Tuskers with a single autocrossbow.

Segment 11: In my new SS route, I get Edgar to level 10, Locke 9, and Terra 8 before fighting Vargas so that Sabin will join at level 11 (Sabin joins at your average party level +2). This may not be needed in a segmented run, especially since you'll want to use desperation attacks on most of the bosses until you get joker doom. Here is some info on desperation attacks (taken from the Algorithms FAQ on GameFAQs):

Quote:

If you attack while the character's current HP < their max HP / 8, then there is a 1 in 16 chance of doing a desperation attack instead of a normal attack.

Gau and Umaro do not have desperation attacks.

If the character has any of the following statuses, then they will never do a desperation attack: Muddle, Image, Clear, Zombie.

Characters will never use their desperation attack more than once each combat.

While the Battle Time Counter is less than 768, characters won't use their desperation attacks. (i.e. Characters will never use Desperation Attacks during the first 25.6 seconds of combat)

All Desperation attacks are unblockable.

All Desperation attacks are magical attacks, that ignore defense.

So basically, in order for a character to use a desperation attack, his/her HP must be less than 1/8 of their max HP (kneeling down) and about 25-26 seconds must have passed in the battle; then each time you he/she attacks, there is a 1/16 chance they will use a desperation attack. Since you have to wait a little while before you can use a desperation attack, the TAS usually uses that time to get one of the characters down to less than 1/8 HP. One other thing to note: when you have the battle mode on Wait, the battle timer doesn't run while you are in menus, so you'll probably have to wait longer than 26 seconds to be able to do a desperation attack. Either that or change the battle mode to Active.

So anyway, using a desperation attack on Vargas is faster and I would expect a segmented run to use one on him.

Segment 12: You'll want to get one battle here that contains a Rhodox. Later on you'll have Gau learn the Rhodox rage, which can do the Snare ability. Then you'll be able to do Vanish/Snare instead of having to take the time to learn Doom.

Segment 13: You might want to wait and buy the echo screens in Jidoor, so that you'll have money to buy smoke bombs in Nikeah. You'll want to save before getting on the raft so you can try to get as few battles as possible on the river. I think the best time to save would be right after talking to Edgar.

You should pick up the white cape (you'll need extra MBlock in the WoR), and possibly the other treasures in the north room to sell for money. The TAS needed to kill time here, but you won't, so get these items before talking to Banon the first time. You probably don't need to change the party order.

Segment 14: You should definitely use a desperation attack on Ultros.

Glad to hear you're working on this! I've had some ideas for a segmented route, but never had the ambition to actually start doing one. I've got some comments on your route:

Segment 1: I think the only reason the TAS moves Terra to the 4th position is because they manipulate every Narshe battle to be preemptive, so she will get the first turn. (Like Rakuen said, the person in the 4th spot always gets the first turn in a preemptive or side attack.) In my new SS route, I have Vicks and Wedge run from every battle so that Terra gets all the experience. This allows me to get Terra to level 6 before Locke joins, which makes Locke and Edgar join at one level higher than in my old route. Of course, this might mean that it'll be impossible to kill Whelk before it enters its shell (not enough damage from Vicks and Wedge), so I'm not sure whether you'd want to do that in a segmented run. It's something to test, though.

Segment 2: As I said before, you'll want to test whether it's faster to level up only Terra, or level up all three and kill Whelk before it goes into its shell.

Segment 3: You'll want to get Terra at least to level 5, possibly level 6, without having to take extra steps to get battles. Also, it's faster to take Mog to fight the boss and unequip him during the battle.

Segment 4: It's possible to walk all the way from Narshe to Figaro without any encounters (I've done it). If you don't want to try to do that, in the previous segment you could walk part of the way towards Figaro before saving. There's no reason to save before entering Figaro, so this segment should be combined with Segment 5.

Segment 5: Before saving, you should put Edgar and Locke in the back row (and possibly equip the mithril pike on Edgar, although it might not be needed in a segmented run).

Segment 6: I usually equip the mithril blade and mithril shield on Locke during the battles here; if you do it while Edgar is doing crossbow, it won't cost you any time.

Segment 7: This should be combined with segments 8 and 9, and there should be no encounters on the world map.

Segment 8: You might want to consider buying only 2 sprint shoes, so you can buy more smoke bombs. (I do this in my new SS route.) The TAS didn't need smoke bombs since they manipulated every battle to be preemptive, but you'll need them.

Segment 9: For a segmented run, I'm not sure whether taking a chocobo is worth it or not.

Segment 10: Run from fights until you get the atlas armlet and equip it on Edgar. If you got Terra to level 6 in segment 3, Edgar will be strong enough to kill everything except Tuskers with a single autocrossbow.

Segment 11: In my new SS route, I get Edgar to level 10, Locke 9, and Terra 8 before fighting Vargas so that Sabin will join at level 11 (Sabin joins at your average party level +2). This may not be needed in a segmented run, especially since you'll want to use desperation attacks on most of the bosses until you get joker doom. Here is some info on desperation attacks (taken from the Algorithms FAQ on GameFAQs):

[quote]If you attack while the character's current HP < their max HP / 8, then there is a 1 in 16 chance of doing a desperation attack instead of a normal attack.

Gau and Umaro do not have desperation attacks.

If the character has any of the following statuses, then they will never do a desperation attack: Muddle, Image, Clear, Zombie.

Characters will never use their desperation attack more than once each combat.

While the Battle Time Counter is less than 768, characters won't use their desperation attacks. (i.e. Characters will never use Desperation Attacks during the first 25.6 seconds of combat)

All Desperation attacks are unblockable.

All Desperation attacks are magical attacks, that ignore defense.[/quote]

So basically, in order for a character to use a desperation attack, his/her HP must be less than 1/8 of their max HP (kneeling down) and about 25-26 seconds must have passed in the battle; then each time you he/she attacks, there is a 1/16 chance they will use a desperation attack. Since you have to wait a little while before you can use a desperation attack, the TAS usually uses that time to get one of the characters down to less than 1/8 HP. One other thing to note: when you have the battle mode on Wait, the battle timer doesn't run while you are in menus, so you'll probably have to wait longer than 26 seconds to be able to do a desperation attack. Either that or change the battle mode to Active.

So anyway, using a desperation attack on Vargas is faster and I would expect a segmented run to use one on him.

Segment 12: You'll want to get one battle here that contains a Rhodox. Later on you'll have Gau learn the Rhodox rage, which can do the Snare ability. Then you'll be able to do Vanish/Snare instead of having to take the time to learn Doom.

Segment 13: You might want to wait and buy the echo screens in Jidoor, so that you'll have money to buy smoke bombs in Nikeah. You'll want to save before getting on the raft so you can try to get as few battles as possible on the river. I think the best time to save would be right after talking to Edgar.

You should pick up the white cape (you'll need extra MBlock in the WoR), and possibly the other treasures in the north room to sell for money. The TAS needed to kill time here, but you won't, so get these items before talking to Banon the first time. You probably don't need to change the party order.

Segment 14: You should definitely use a desperation attack on Ultros.

brassmaster

2012-06-10 10:02:34 pm

The problem I run into if I level up terra in the caves, is I run out of magic (did a few test runs up to Ultros). although I might be missing an easy magic refill somewhere...

the only reason i do Figaro as it's own segment is because its a free save and doesn't take any time, plus if I do something stupid in Figaro, i don't have to luck manipulate that walk again.

I actually didn't know you can equip people during battle, that's good to know!

segments 7 and 8 should be combined, I'm not sure why they are separate, but I don't know if I want to luck manipulate segment 9 in there as well... I think taking the chocobo is about the same.

Since I'm basing this route on the TAS i wasn't thinking about smoke bombs, but I'm certainly going to add that into the route.

Is it faster to really get the Atlas Armlet in a segmented run? I'll trust your judgment on that.

Thank you for the desperation attack info! I wasn't sure if I should try for it or not. I certainly will now though. it's the 1/16 chance that kinda sucks... but hey, i said I'll go for some tricky luck manipulations.

I defaulted to putting it on wait, but perhaps I'll do the run on Active once I get faster at the menus

getting the Rhodox rage... this is why I want to write the whole detailed route first in case I need something like this.

I wasn't sure if I could manipulate the battles on the river because of the counter that erokky talks about. I'll certainly do that though!

desperation on ultros, definitely! now that I have the info I need on them!

Cool, thanks essentia! I greatly appreciate it. I'll update my route some time tomorrow.

The problem I run into if I level up terra in the caves, is I run out of magic (did a few test runs up to Ultros). although I might be missing an easy magic refill somewhere...

the only reason i do Figaro as it's own segment is because its a free save and doesn't take any time, plus if I do something stupid in Figaro, i don't have to luck manipulate that walk again.

I actually didn't know you can equip people during battle, that's good to know!

segments 7 and 8 should be combined, I'm not sure why they are separate, but I don't know if I want to luck manipulate segment 9 in there as well...  I think taking the chocobo is about the same.

Since I'm basing this route on the TAS i wasn't thinking about smoke bombs, but I'm certainly going to add that into the route.

Is it faster to really get the Atlas Armlet in a segmented run?  I'll trust your judgment on that.

Thank you for the desperation attack info! I wasn't sure if I should try for it or not.  I certainly will now though.  it's the 1/16 chance that kinda sucks... but hey, i said I'll go for some tricky luck manipulations.

I defaulted to putting it on wait, but perhaps I'll do the run on Active once I get faster at the menus

getting the Rhodox rage... this is why I want to write the whole detailed route first in case I need something like this.

I wasn't sure if I could manipulate the battles on the river because of the counter that erokky talks about.  I'll certainly do that though!

desperation on ultros, definitely! now that I have the info I need on them!

Cool, thanks essentia!  I greatly appreciate it.  I'll update my route some time tomorrow.

Essentia

2012-06-10 10:48:23 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

Quote from brassmaster:

The problem I run into if I level up terra in the caves, is I run out of magic (did a few test runs up to Ultros). although I might be missing an easy magic refill somewhere...

I'm confused - where does she run out of magic? I've never had that happen.

Quote:

the only reason i do Figaro as it's own segment is because its a free save and doesn't take any time, plus if I do something stupid in Figaro, i don't have to luck manipulate that walk again.

Well, saving does cost a couple seconds, but if you think it's worth saving here for your sanity, then go ahead.

Quote:

I actually didn't know you can equip people during battle, that's good to know!

Yes, you can equip weapons and shields during battle by pressing up in the item menu.

Quote:

segments 7 and 8 should be combined, I'm not sure why they are separate, but I don't know if I want to luck manipulate segment 9 in there as well... I think taking the chocobo is about the same.

If taking a chocobo is the same, then you should take the chocobo and combine segment 9 with 7 and 8.

Quote:

Is it faster to really get the Atlas Armlet in a segmented run? I'll trust your judgment on that.

I think it will be faster to get it, because unlike the TAS, you won't get preemptive on every encounter, which means you either need to kill the enemies or run away. Since running away can take a long time, it could be faster to kill enemies if you can do it in one turn. The atlas armlet will allow Edgar to kill just about everything with one autocrossbow. Also, you'll need higher levels than the TAS just to be able to survive enemies' attacks, so it doesn't hurt to get some experience.

Quote:

I defaulted to putting it on wait, but perhaps I'll do the run on Active once I get faster at the menus

You'll probably want to use Wait for some of the run. With Wait, you can delay enemies' attacks by going into the magic or item menu during attack animations (I do this throughout my SS run), and you'll definitely want it on Wait while doing Joker Doom.

I'm glad to help you plan this run! If you get a chance, you should watch my streams - I'm going to start doing SS any% attempts soon, and I think you could learn a lot by watching.

[quote="brassmaster"]The problem I run into if I level up terra in the caves, is I run out of magic (did a few test runs up to Ultros). although I might be missing an easy magic refill somewhere...[/quote]
I'm confused - where does she run out of magic? I've never had that happen.

[quote]the only reason i do Figaro as it's own segment is because its a free save and doesn't take any time, plus if I do something stupid in Figaro, i don't have to luck manipulate that walk again.[/quote]
Well, saving does cost a couple seconds, but if you think it's worth saving here for your sanity, then go ahead.

[quote]I actually didn't know you can equip people during battle, that's good to know![/quote]
Yes, you can equip weapons and shields during battle by pressing up in the item menu.

[quote]segments 7 and 8 should be combined, I'm not sure why they are separate, but I don't know if I want to luck manipulate segment 9 in there as well...  I think taking the chocobo is about the same.[/quote]
If taking a chocobo is the same, then you should take the chocobo and combine segment 9 with 7 and 8.

[quote]Is it faster to really get the Atlas Armlet in a segmented run?  I'll trust your judgment on that.[/quote]
I think it will be faster to get it, because unlike the TAS, you won't get preemptive on every encounter, which means you either need to kill the enemies or run away. Since running away can take a long time, it could be faster to kill enemies if you can do it in one turn. The atlas armlet will allow Edgar to kill just about everything with one autocrossbow. Also, you'll need higher levels than the TAS just to be able to survive enemies' attacks, so it doesn't hurt to get some experience.

[quote]I defaulted to putting it on wait, but perhaps I'll do the run on Active once I get faster at the menus[/quote]
You'll probably want to use Wait for some of the run. With Wait, you can delay enemies' attacks by going into the magic or item menu during attack animations (I do this throughout my SS run), and you'll definitely want it on Wait while doing Joker Doom.

I'm glad to help you plan this run! If you get a chance, you should watch my streams - I'm going to start doing SS any% attempts soon, and I think you could learn a lot by watching.

Terribleno

2012-06-10 10:49:13 pm

Quote:

Is it faster to really get the Atlas Armlet in a segmented run? I'll trust your judgment on that.

Atlas Armlet adds 25% to physical damage after randomness (it's just a multiplier).

Quote:

Since I'm basing this route on the TAS i wasn't thinking about smoke bombs, but I'm certainly going to add that into the route.

Just so you know, both Novalia Spirit (current WIP author of a TAS) and erokky both have agreed that the current TAS is really suboptimal. I do not have any info that would improve a real-time run, though.

brassmaster

2012-06-11 08:48:01 am

I run out of magic during the Vargas fight, but that's my fault though. Shouldn't be an issue when I do the actual run.

each time I save costs several seconds? If I'm fast on the menus, I was thinking it would be only 1 second. But that does get silly me thinking, if I can combine segments, it would be better to do so since those seconds will add over a minute to the run.

yup, i'll go the chocobo route and combine those 3 segments.

that's a good point about active or wait... I think I'll try to plan the switches according to when I go into the menus.

If you are streaming ff6, i'll usually tune in anyway, but I agree, I can certainly learn a lot by doing so. There is a big difference between casual play and speed running.

Terribleno - good to know about another TAS. since I'm writing the entire route before I run, I hope they will have their plans finalized before I run just in case there is something else that I can use.

Essentia

2012-06-11 09:07:21 am

Everything's better with Magitek

Quote from brassmaster:

I run out of magic during the Vargas fight, but that's my fault though. Shouldn't be an issue when I do the actual run.

Oh yeah, I usually use a sleeping bag on Terra on the save point just before Vargas to replenish her MP. I don't think you'll need to do this in a segmented run, though.

Terribleno

2012-06-11 02:11:27 pm

Quote:

since I'm writing the entire route before I run, I hope they will have their plans finalized before I run just in case there is something else that I can use.

Well, this route is not real-time friendly, feasible, and maybe not even possible. But there's tiny optimizations all over the place that, if they are real-time feasible, can be implemented.

Nitrodon

2012-06-11 08:50:09 pm

I guess I should go ahead and place my auction house manipulation spreadsheet here. It was made in OpenOffice 3.1, but later versions of Excel should be able to open it without any trouble. I've only tested it in the WoR, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works in the WoB as well. It works on v1.0 and v1.1, but for some reason it doesn't work on Lenophis's cart and I have no idea why.

To use the spreadsheet, start inside the auction house, and open the sheet corresponding to the number of characters in your current party (usually 4 in normal play). With the Sprint Shoes equipped, leave the auction house, and immediately hold up on the D-pad to re-enter the auction house. There is a woman near the auction house who will have time to move one step; type the direction she moved (as a number 0-3) into row 3. Eventually, the number of possible RNG states (row 7) will reach 1, and rows 8-10 will fill up.

After this, row 10 of the spreadsheet will tell you which item will show up in the auction house. If it isn't the item you want, you can exit and re-enter again to go to the next column of the spreadsheet until you reach an item you want. When you start an auction, put a 1 in the first row of the spreadsheet. You can also put a 1 in the second column if you buy the item, but that will really only matter if you later enter an auction with an Imp Robot (or Cure Ring in the WoB), so I usually don't. After buying a one-time item (Hero Ring or either esper), the higher-numbered items are decreased by 1 to fill in the gap.

If all you're looking for is magicite, then you'll want a 3 or 4 for your first auction, followed by a 3 for your second auction. If you're in the WoR and already purchased the Hero Ring, these change to 2/3 and 2 respectively.

For instance, at SGDQ, the woman moved up, right, left, right, left, so I went to the "4 chars" sheet and typed the numbers 0, 1, 3, 1, 3 in row 3. This was enough to ascertain the RNG state, and from row 10 we see that the next item is 3 (Golem). This is one of the items Essentia wanted, so she initiated an auction and purchased it. I put a 1 in cell L1 to signify that she initiated an auction. I looked for the next 3 in row 10, and found it in cell Q10. Thus, Essentia left and re-entered the auction house 4 times (to go past columns M, N, O, and P), then initiated an auction to obtain ZoneSeek.

The rectangle A1:C11 contains what passes for documentation.

Row 1: Enter a 1 if you initiated an auction at this juncture.
Row 2: Enter a 1 if you purchased an item at this juncture.
Row 3: Enter the number corresponding to the direction or item, if it isn't already known.

Row 6: Number of items remaining in the auction house. This starts at 6, because it was meant for the WoR auction house in Essentia's run.
Row 7: Number of possible RNG states. When this reaches 1, that means the RNG state is known, and thus you can predict what will happen.
Row 8: The current RNG state, if there is only one possible state. This is used to determine the next item and direction.
Row 9: The next direction the woman will go, if there is only one possible RNG state.
Row 10: The next item to be offered in the auction house, if there is only one possible RNG state.
Row 11: The direction or item. This row simply unifies rows 3, 9, and 10 as input into the formulas.

Rows 13-268 (internal stuff)
Column A: List of every RNG state. Not really used.
Column B: The RNG state reached in one iteration of observing the NPC.
Column C: The direction the NPC will walk. Note that columns B and C are the only things that change between sheets.
Column D: The item that will show up in an auction.

Column F: List of every RNG state, basically showing that every state is initially possible.
Columns G and later: Possible RNG states after this iteration, in rows corresponding to the RNG state before this iteration.

I'm not confident in my ability to explain things, so I hope this isn't too confusing.

I guess I should go ahead and place my auction house manipulation spreadsheet here.  It was made in OpenOffice 3.1, but later versions of Excel should be able to open it without any trouble.  I've only tested it in the WoR, but I wouldn't be surprised if it works in the WoB as well.  It works on v1.0 and v1.1, but for some reason it doesn't work on Lenophis's cart and I have no idea why.

To use the spreadsheet, start inside the auction house, and open the sheet corresponding to the number of characters in your current party (usually 4 in normal play).  With the Sprint Shoes equipped, leave the auction house, and immediately hold up on the D-pad to re-enter the auction house.  There is a woman near the auction house who will have time to move one step; type the direction she moved (as a number 0-3) into row 3.  Eventually, the number of possible RNG states (row 7) will reach 1, and rows 8-10 will fill up.

After this, row 10 of the spreadsheet will tell you which item will show up in the auction house.  If it isn't the item you want, you can exit and re-enter again to go to the next column of the spreadsheet until you reach an item you want.  When you start an auction, put a 1 in the first row of the spreadsheet.  You can also put a 1 in the second column if you buy the item, but that will really only matter if you later enter an auction with an Imp Robot (or Cure Ring in the WoB), so I usually don't.  After buying a one-time item (Hero Ring or either esper), the higher-numbered items are decreased by 1 to fill in the gap.

If all you're looking for is magicite, then you'll want a 3 or 4 for your first auction, followed by a 3 for your second auction.  If you're in the WoR and already purchased the Hero Ring, these change to 2/3 and 2 respectively.

For instance, at SGDQ, the woman moved up, right, left, right, left, so I went to the "4 chars" sheet and typed the numbers 0, 1, 3, 1, 3 in row 3.  This was enough to ascertain the RNG state, and from row 10 we see that the next item is 3 (Golem).  This is one of the items Essentia wanted, so she initiated an auction and purchased it.  I put a 1 in cell L1 to signify that she initiated an auction.  I looked for the next 3 in row 10, and found it in cell Q10.  Thus, Essentia left and re-entered the auction house 4 times (to go past columns M, N, O, and P), then initiated an auction to obtain ZoneSeek.

[spoiler="Explanation of every cell"]The rectangle A1:C11 contains what passes for documentation.

Row 1: Enter a 1 if you initiated an auction at this juncture.
Row 2: Enter a 1 if you purchased an item at this juncture.
Row 3: Enter the number corresponding to the direction or item, if it isn't already known.

Row 6: Number of items remaining in the auction house.  This starts at 6, because it was meant for the WoR auction house in Essentia's run.
Row 7: Number of possible RNG states.  When this reaches 1, that means the RNG state is known, and thus you can predict what will happen.
Row 8: The current RNG state, if there is only one possible state.  This is used to determine the next item and direction.
Row 9: The next direction the woman will go, if there is only one possible RNG state.
Row 10: The next item to be offered in the auction house, if there is only one possible RNG state.
Row 11: The direction or item.  This row simply unifies rows 3, 9, and 10 as input into the formulas.

Rows 13-268 (internal stuff)
Column A: List of every RNG state.  Not really used.
Column B: The RNG state reached in one iteration of observing the NPC.
Column C: The direction the NPC will walk.  Note that columns B and C are the only things that change between sheets.
Column D: The item that will show up in an auction.

Column F: List of every RNG state, basically showing that every state is initially possible.
Columns G and later: Possible RNG states after this iteration, in rows corresponding to the RNG state before this iteration.[/spoiler]

I'm not confident in my ability to explain things, so I hope this isn't too confusing.

Attachment:

FF6 Auction Manipulation.ods

brassmaster

2012-06-13 12:37:57 pm

okay, I've edited my previous post a bit (and will use that post for my route for the time being). i don't know when I'll continue working on it (moving to a new state by the end of the month, so maybe after I move), but I do want to test up to Vargas for leveling purposes before I continue.

Essentia

2012-07-07 05:35:14 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

For those interested, I'm going to stream an any% speedrun attempt tonight, starting around 8-9 PM Mountain (10-11 Eastern). My goal is to get under 5 hours real time (my current run on SDA is 5:11 real time) and under 4:30 game time.
http://www.twitch.tv/essentiafour

brassmaster

Edit history:

brassmaster: 2012-07-22 04:20:22 pm

brassmaster: 2012-07-18 06:56:49 pm

brassmaster: 2012-07-18 06:07:12 pm

brassmaster: 2012-07-18 05:20:13 pm

2012-07-18 04:51:26 pm

Sorry that I have been very absent from working on this, but I've been getting settled in my new place and been busy. but, I'm back to looking at the TAS. Next up is the three way split!

Done up to the three party choice before Kefka. these next handful of segments are posted above in my previous segments post.

EDIT: finished up through the Opera (that segment is going to SUCK if I aim for no rats and a desperation on ultros). This puts me at a few minutes short of the 2hr mark

Essentia

2012-08-02 11:01:25 am

Everything's better with Magitek

Last night I got a new record on this: 4:42 by SDA timing, 5:02:18 real time. I was on track to get sub-5 hours, but then I lost about 3-4 minutes trying to save Cid (some of the worst fish luck ever) and another minute in Kefka's Tower against a GtBehemoth when Sabin kept dying before he could cast Doom on it. Now that I know it's possible, though, I'd really like to get sub-5 hours before submitting.

You can watch the stream recording here: http://www.twitch.tv/essentiafour/b/327106357

TheThrillness

2012-08-02 11:06:23 am

thethrillness.blogspot.com

Very unlucky Essentia but you are doing exceptionally well! Keep it up!

One Lady Owner

2012-08-02 11:27:49 pm

I watched most of your stream last night silently cheering you on as you beat your benchmark times, and had to go to bed around Darrill's Tomb. Happy to hear you got a new record, and good luck for next time! Smiley

Essentia

2012-11-10 05:36:42 pm

Everything's better with Magitek

Thanks to Nitrodon, we can now tell the difference between the good and bad medium-speed fish. The thing to note is that each type of fish always starts in the same location when you first enter the screen. It's kind of hard for me to explain in words, but basically the good medium-speed fish starts closer to the shore than the bad one. When all four fish are there, the good one will always start in the lowest left. This knowledge should make it easier to save Cid.

I've been trying to find a SS strat to kill Ultros 3 before Relm shows up, but I haven't had any luck so far. If I'm reading his AI script correctly, Relm appears when Ultros has 10240 HP or less; so to skip Relm, you'd have to do more than 10240 damage in one turn. I've thought about casting reflect on everyone (by summong Carbuncle) and then reflecting a spell off everyone, but the problem is that even though the spell hits multiple times, the damage from each hit is added together and only shown at the end, which means the limit is 9999. I was wondering if anyone had any other ideas. As a side note, the segmented strat here would be to vanish Ultros (by having a muddled person summon Phantom) then use Strago's desperation attack (which does instant death).

Another thing I've been wondering about (maybe some TAS people can help): When I get to the Veldt in a SS run, my first battle is almost always Templar x2 Soldier x2, which is inescapable. Every once in a while I don't get that battle, though, so I'm wondering what determines the first battle that you get and if it's possible to manipulate it.

Thanks to Nitrodon, we can now tell the difference between the good and bad medium-speed fish. The thing to note is that each type of fish always starts in the same location when you first enter the screen. It's kind of hard for me to explain in words, but basically the good medium-speed fish starts closer to the shore than the bad one. When all four fish are there, the good one will always start in the lowest left. This knowledge should make it easier to save Cid.

I've been trying to find a SS strat to kill Ultros 3 before Relm shows up, but I haven't had any luck so far. If I'm reading his AI script correctly, Relm appears when Ultros has 10240 HP or less; so to skip Relm, you'd have to do more than 10240 damage in one turn. I've thought about casting reflect on everyone (by summong Carbuncle) and then reflecting a spell off everyone, but the problem is that even though the spell hits multiple times, the damage from each hit is added together and only shown at the end, which means the limit is 9999. I was wondering if anyone had any other ideas. As a side note, the segmented strat here would be to vanish Ultros (by having a muddled person summon Phantom) then use Strago's desperation attack (which does instant death).

Another thing I've been wondering about (maybe some TAS people can help): When I get to the Veldt in a SS run, my first battle is almost always Templar x2 Soldier x2, which is inescapable. Every once in a while I don't get that battle, though, so I'm wondering what determines the first battle that you get and if it's possible to manipulate it.

Darkwing Duck

2012-11-10 06:01:15 pm

Highly Evolved

Do you know how random encounters work in the game? I would guess the answer to the Veldt question lies there. Maybe using a spell or something else to pass over that battle with the templar and soldiers. This type of manipulation is used in Lufia and Dragon Warrior.