Final Fantasy Legend Single-segment

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2011-06-08 10:41:50 pm

Poxnor: 2011-06-08 10:41:35 pm

2011-06-08 09:44:08 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from Bobo the King:

Any reason why a segmented run wouldn't follow the TAS exactly? (Aside from the fact that we haven't made it yet... *cough*...)

I had assumed that there would be precisely timed soft resets in the TAS. If not, then yeah, a segmented run would just copy a TAS.

Edit: On second thought, a segmented run could actually use different strategies than the TAS, because you could manipulate the PRNG to your heart's content before starting each segment.

Quote from Bobo the King:

On an unrelated note, I asked Mike Uyama to make me a verifier for your single-segment run. I never got back to him because he said there were already plenty of verifiers, but I still feel I have a unique perspective to offer.

Thanks for the feedback Smiley

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 14:24, you go right when you enter the World 2 caves. Going left is many steps shorter.
At 14:59, you go up around the island rather than left and down. I believe this costs two extra steps or about half a second.
I was a little confused by your decision to waste steps and run away from an extra battle from 18:15 to 18:35. I conjectured you were trying to manipulate it so that you don't get any encounters in the BLUEKEY hall. Is it worth it instead of charging straight in? Would it still be worth it if you corrected the mistakes (?) above, gaining a few extra steps?

Yeah, all of that together was to avoid a pair of nasty fights in the blue key outhouse. Going right in the second cave yielded the single Pirate battle on the island, allowing for the run-fail trick to happen during that battle. Burning off the steps on 1F of Sei-Ryu's Castle was better than getting bogged down in those fights in the outhouse. I took the floating island north instead of west because, by burning off the two extra steps there, I could use environmental boundaries to "count" my steps outside the outhouse (well, technically, I guess I could have taken the island west, then just taken two extra steps to get into a battle to the left of the outhouse door...either way, the steps had to be burned).

Sei-Ryu's castle prior to getting the Grenades was one of the hardest parts of the game for me (from a planning perspective), because the enemies dish it out and can really take it. Not getting characters killed between when I went underwater and when I got the Grenades took a fair bit of manipulation.

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 19:53, you pick up all three treasure chests-- SILVER armor, a GRENADE, and a book of CURE-- but I didn't check whether you used all three. I believe I remember seeing the GRENADE and CURE used in the run, but did you remember to equip the SILVER armor? Have you tested the game to verify that your character dies if you don't equip the armor?

Yes, I did use all three of them (though I only used Cure once, so arguably that could have been skipped with some more creativity). As for testing if the character died without the armour: no, but I recall that the mutant's HP got really low at one point with the armour, so I lazily assumed that she would have died without (bad Poxnor Sad

). That could be interesting to test if it could be skipped, and just the Dragon armour purchased instead.

Quote from Bobo the King:

I saw some battles that seemed unnecessary. I don't have their time indexes offhand. I assume that all battles were for picking up meat or gaining mutant abilities.

Actually, no. Largely, the battles were fought because of chains of run-fails. Had I tried to run all the time, I would have taken a beating and died. Four, five, or six rounds in which the number of enemies remain constant and just wail on you...well... Smiley

Quote from Bobo the King:

I noticed that you chose to fight SU-ZAKU instead of running from him. I'm not so sure this is the best option. It may be better to run from him, though if you do, you will burn through your running RNG and might hit a pocket of six "can't run" rolls, which would be unacceptable in a SS run. Your other option would be to pace around inside the tower and subway until the RNG is aligned so that you avoid SU-ZAKU as best you can. Fighting three battles with him before reaching the first subway station strikes me as rather excessive...

Again, it's the streaks of run-fails. That said, pacing inside the tower is a good idea -- thanks. It never occurred to me, because Su Zaku dies so quickly to Saw. I never thought it would have been worth it to burn off steps in the Tower.

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 45:22, your dismount from the bike could have been a little smoother. It's very minor error.

Everything I did on that bloody bike could have been smoother -- I can admit it! Wink

The same goes for that stupid glider Wink

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 45:46, you dismount and walk around the bike to talk to So-Cho. The fastest method for talking to him is to go left two tiles, then right one, then dismount.

Nice, thanks!

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 49:57, 50:35, and 50:47, you ride the elevator all the way down. It turns out you can "jump off" it when it reaches the top of the door. Just hold right and you'll save a few steps. This is a very minor mistake, but easy to fix.

Yeah, this was pointed out in the verification thread. I don't know how I missed that trick in Shiner's run.

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 59:30, you TELEPOR back to World 1, fight a single battle with a LIZARD, and TELEPOR back to ASHURA's floor. Why?

I'm rather proud of this one Smiley

Had I walked directly to Ashura, I would have faced two fights on 23F -- two very evil fights (I can't remember what exactly the enemies would have been, but they were immune to a Warrior's Saw, and they were massive groups of three types of enemies). The first fight would have taken a very, very long time; and, the second would have even been worse (I can't remember if I ever even figured out a set of inputs with which I could survive both battles). Fighting one Lizard eliminates all battles on 23F, and allows me to burn off the last of the run-fails, allowing me to run without failure for three battles during the re-ascent. (This is possibly my favourite trick in the entire run -- it saves time, and it's utterly bizarre!)

Quote from Bobo the King:

Like I said, these mistakes are all very minor and you run is definitely worth publication. I just think you should be aware of them in case you decide to improve the run.

Thank you very much Smiley

Quote from Bobo the King:

Also, I'd like to offer my thanks for your contribution to our TAS. You talked with the Creator on floor 22, which was a strategy I hadn't seen or considered. Our old strategy was to talk to him in Base Town, but this will save many precious frames. We're one step closer to perfection, thanks to you!

Sadly, I can't take credit for this -- that one was all ShinerCCC. (Quite frankly, FFL really belongs to Shiner; he just never got around to recording an SS for SDA, and I had too much time on my hands!)

[quote="Bobo the King"]Any reason why a segmented run wouldn't follow the TAS exactly?  (Aside from the fact that we haven't made it yet... *cough*...)[/quote]
I had assumed that there would be precisely timed soft resets in the TAS.  If not, then yeah, a segmented run would just copy a TAS.

[i]Edit[/i]: On second thought, a segmented run could actually use different strategies than the TAS, because you could manipulate the PRNG to your heart's content before starting each segment.

[quote="Bobo the King"]On an unrelated note, I asked Mike Uyama to make me a verifier for your single-segment run.  I never got back to him because he said there were already plenty of verifiers, but I still feel I have a unique perspective to offer.[/quote]
Thanks for the feedback :)

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 14:24, you go right when you enter the World 2 caves.  Going left is many steps shorter.
At 14:59, you go up around the island rather than left and down.  I believe this costs two extra steps or about half a second.
I was a little confused by your decision to waste steps and run away from an extra battle from 18:15 to 18:35.  I conjectured you were trying to manipulate it so that you don't get any encounters in the BLUEKEY hall.  Is it worth it instead of charging straight in?  Would it still be worth it if you corrected the mistakes (?) above, gaining a few extra steps?[/quote]
Yeah, all of that together was to avoid a pair of nasty fights in the blue key outhouse.  Going right in the second cave yielded the single Pirate battle on the island, allowing for the run-fail trick to happen during that battle.  Burning off the steps on 1F of Sei-Ryu's Castle was better than getting bogged down in those fights in the outhouse.  I took the floating island north instead of west because, by burning off the two extra steps there, I could use environmental boundaries to "count" my steps outside the outhouse (well, technically, I guess I could have taken the island west, then just taken two extra steps to get into a battle to the left of the outhouse door...either way, the steps had to be burned).

Sei-Ryu's castle prior to getting the Grenades was one of the hardest parts of the game for me (from a planning perspective), because the enemies dish it out and can really take it.  Not getting characters killed between when I went underwater and when I got the Grenades took a fair bit of manipulation.

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 19:53, you pick up all three treasure chests-- SILVER armor, a GRENADE, and a book of CURE-- but I didn't check whether you used all three.  I believe I remember seeing the GRENADE and CURE used in the run, but did you remember to equip the SILVER armor?  Have you tested the game to verify that your character dies if you don't equip the armor?[/quote]
Yes, I did use all three of them (though I only used Cure once, so arguably that could have been skipped with some more creativity).  As for testing if the character died without the armour: no, but I recall that the mutant's HP got really low at one point with the armour, so I lazily assumed that she would have died without (bad Poxnor :( ).  That could be interesting to test if it could be skipped, and just the Dragon armour purchased instead.

[quote="Bobo the King"]I saw some battles that seemed unnecessary.  I don't have their time indexes offhand.  I assume that all battles were for picking up meat or gaining mutant abilities.[/quote]
Actually, no.  Largely, the battles were fought because of chains of run-fails.  Had I tried to run all the time, I would have taken a beating and died.  Four, five, or six rounds in which the number of enemies remain constant and just wail on you...well... :)

[quote="Bobo the King"]I noticed that you chose to fight SU-ZAKU instead of running from him.  I'm not so sure this is the best option.  It may be better to run from him, though if you do, you will burn through your running RNG and might hit a pocket of six "can't run" rolls, which would be unacceptable in a SS run.  Your other option would be to pace around inside the tower and subway until the RNG is aligned so that you avoid SU-ZAKU as best you can.  Fighting three battles with him before reaching the first subway station strikes me as rather excessive...[/quote]
Again, it's the streaks of run-fails.  That said, pacing inside the tower is a good idea -- thanks.  It never occurred to me, because Su Zaku dies so quickly to Saw.  I never thought it would have been worth it to burn off steps in the Tower.

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 45:22, your dismount from the bike could have been a little smoother.  It's very minor error.[/quote]
Everything I did on that bloody bike could have been smoother -- I can admit it! ;)  The same goes for that stupid glider ;)

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 45:46, you dismount and walk around the bike to talk to So-Cho.  The fastest method for talking to him is to go left two tiles, then right one, then dismount.[/quote]
Nice, thanks!

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 49:57, 50:35, and 50:47, you ride the elevator all the way down.  It turns out you can "jump off" it when it reaches the top of the door.  Just hold right and you'll save a few steps.  This is a very minor mistake, but easy to fix.[/quote]
Yeah, this was pointed out in the verification thread.  I don't know how I missed that trick in Shiner's run.

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 59:30, you TELEPOR back to World 1, fight a single battle with a LIZARD, and TELEPOR back to ASHURA's floor.  Why?[/quote]
I'm rather proud of this one :)  Had I walked directly to Ashura, I would have faced two fights on 23F -- two very evil fights (I can't remember what exactly the enemies would have been, but they were immune to a Warrior's Saw, and they were massive groups of three types of enemies).  The first fight would have taken a very, very long time; and, the second would have even been worse (I can't remember if I ever even figured out a set of inputs with which I could survive both battles).  Fighting one Lizard eliminates all battles on 23F, and allows me to burn off the last of the run-fails, allowing me to run without failure for three battles during the re-ascent.  (This is possibly my favourite trick in the entire run -- it saves time, and it's utterly bizarre!)

[quote="Bobo the King"]Like I said, these mistakes are all very minor and you run is definitely worth publication.  I just think you should be aware of them in case you decide to improve the run.[/quote]
Thank you very much :)

[quote="Bobo the King"]Also, I'd like to offer my thanks for your contribution to our TAS.  You talked with the Creator on floor 22, which was a strategy I hadn't seen or considered.  Our old strategy was to talk to him in Base Town, but this will save many precious frames.  We're one step closer to perfection, thanks to you![/quote]
Sadly, I can't take credit for this -- that one was all ShinerCCC.  (Quite frankly, FFL really belongs to Shiner; he just never got around to recording an SS for SDA, and I had too much time on my hands!)

Bobo the King

2011-06-09 04:11:05 am

With your explanations, everything checks out. I have no significant complaints and your run seems pretty damn near optimal.

Quote from Poxnor:

Sadly, I can't take credit for this -- that one was all ShinerCCC. (Quite frankly, FFL really belongs to Shiner; he just never got around to recording an SS for SDA, and I had too much time on my hands!)

Shiner's already on our extensive thank you list, so we'll throw you on there too anyway. After all, we learned the new strategy from you and even if we hadn't learned anything new, comparing runs is always a good idea.

Quote from Poxnor:

I had assumed that there would be precisely timed soft resets in the TAS. If not, then yeah, a segmented run would just copy a TAS.

Edit: On second thought, a segmented run could actually use different strategies than the TAS, because you could manipulate the PRNG to your heart's content before starting each segment.

It's bad, but not nearly as bad as you may think. If you want to manipulate just one of the RNGs (which will usually be the encounter RNG) to a specific value, you have a 1 in 256 chance of nailing it with each soft reset. That means you can expect roughly 256 attempts (255, actually, according to the negative binomial distribution...) per segment, with each segment lasting just 15 to 30 seconds. Each segment would begin with you starting the game, immediately soft resetting to scramble the RNG(s), then testing the result. That would be a commitment of just a few hours a day, possibly less.

Two caveats:
First, your outlook is substantially worse if you want to manipulate two RNGs simultaneously. This won't happen often (it's confined to World 1), and when it does your chances might not even be all that bad. Depending on how "compatible" the two RNGs are, your chances can be as good as 1 in 256 or as poor as 1 in 16384 (there are 16384 = 256*64 total RNG "seeds", each with equal probability of occurring, as far as we can tell). If you can't grind it out, it's not the end of the world-- you can adjust the plan so that you fight one extra battle instead of trying to manipulate an extremely improbable RNG result. Also keep in mind that the change in the probability can go both ways; if you don't need to maximize your steps within a segment (which will often be the case), you can shoot for, say, at least 87 steps instead of 93 steps. In this example, your chances of nailing an acceptable RNG improve to 7 in 256, significantly decreasing your time commitment. The more allowance you're willing to give yourself, the slower your final run time but also the better preservation of your sanity.

Of key importance is the timing of forced resets. For example, you need to manipulate mana bonuses from all forced encounters up to BYAK-KO. If you have any extra steps before facing, say, KINGSWRD, those steps will be wasted because you need to reset before him anyway to manipulate the +5 mana bonus. Therefore, it's not just pointless, but actually potentially detrimental to demand 93 encounter-free steps per segment in the walk up to him. I happen to be working on this problem right now. Progress is slow, but we should soon be able to tell you how many extra steps you have and what standard you should set for yourself on each reset.

Second, I'm not sure how soft resetting scrambles the RNG on the console. In an emulator as well as on a Game Boy, we all know it begins from a fixed state. On the emulator, if you reset, say, 50 frames after power on, you will always get the same RNG. If the Game Boy version works the same way, you may find it impossible to get the RNG you want in a reasonable amount of time. To test if the RNG is so consistent, I suggest powering on the game, resetting just as the title screen appears, observing how the RNG is affected, recording the result, and repeating this process 50 times or so. If any patterns emerge, the RNG cannot be manipulated to any state shortly after reset and some attempts to quickly manipulate luck can be futile. (On the other hand, you may be lucky that it's consistent because it might allow you to manipulate the encounter RNG to a particularly nice state-- maybe 90 out of 93 steps. All you'd then have to do is get the timing down fairly consistently and you'll have no problem running 90% of the game.)

There are two workarounds to this. First, I don't know what SDA's rules are, but you may be able to get permission to time only from the soft reset. In that case, you could take as long as you want or do anything to manipulate luck and it won't affect your run time. If I were to hazard a guess, though, I'd say SDA would frown upon that. Your second option is to further scramble the RNG. Prior to resetting, the RNG is affected by opcodes and in particular, music and sound effects. FatRatKnight has discovered that by using the game's sound test menu, you can scramble the RNG even further. While it takes far too long to enter the menu for our TAS, it could be useful to you in an unassisted speedrun.

With your explanations, everything checks out.  I have no significant complaints and your run seems pretty damn near optimal.

[quote=Poxnor]Sadly, I can't take credit for this -- that one was all ShinerCCC.  (Quite frankly, FFL really belongs to Shiner; he just never got around to recording an SS for SDA, and I had too much time on my hands!)[/quote]

Shiner's already on our extensive thank you list, so we'll throw you on there too anyway.  After all, we learned the new strategy from you and even if we hadn't learned anything new, comparing runs is always a good idea.

[quote=Poxnor]I had assumed that there would be precisely timed soft resets in the TAS.  If not, then yeah, a segmented run would just copy a TAS.

Edit: On second thought, a segmented run could actually use different strategies than the TAS, because you could manipulate the PRNG to your heart's content before starting each segment.[/quote]

It's bad, but not nearly as bad as you may think.  If you want to manipulate just one of the RNGs (which will usually be the encounter RNG) to a specific value, you have a 1 in 256 chance of nailing it with each soft reset.  That means you can expect roughly 256 attempts (255, actually, according to the negative binomial distribution...) per segment, with each segment lasting just 15 to 30 seconds.  Each segment would begin with you starting the game, immediately soft resetting to scramble the RNG(s), then testing the result.  That would be a commitment of just a few hours a day, possibly less.

Two caveats:
First, your outlook is substantially worse if you want to manipulate two RNGs simultaneously.  This won't happen often (it's confined to World 1), and when it does your chances might not even be all that bad.  Depending on how "compatible" the two RNGs are, your chances can be as good as 1 in 256 or as poor as 1 in 16384 (there are 16384 = 256*64 [i]total[/i] RNG "seeds", each with equal probability of occurring, as far as we can tell).  If you can't grind it out, it's not the end of the world-- you can adjust the plan so that you fight one extra battle instead of trying to manipulate an extremely improbable RNG result.  Also keep in mind that the change in the probability can go both ways; if you don't need to maximize your steps within a segment (which will often be the case), you can shoot for, say, at least 87 steps instead of 93 steps.  In this example, your chances of nailing an acceptable RNG improve to 7 in 256, significantly decreasing your time commitment.  The more allowance you're willing to give yourself, the slower your final run time but also the better preservation of your sanity.

Of key importance is the timing of forced resets.  For example, you need to manipulate mana bonuses from all forced encounters up to BYAK-KO.  If you have any extra steps before facing, say, KINGSWRD, those steps will be wasted because you need to reset before him anyway to manipulate the +5 mana bonus.  Therefore, it's not just pointless, but actually potentially detrimental to demand 93 encounter-free steps per segment in the walk up to him.  I happen to be working on this problem right now.  Progress is slow, but we should soon be able to tell you how many extra steps you have and what standard you should set for yourself on each reset.

Second, I'm not sure how soft resetting scrambles the RNG on the console.  In an emulator as well as on a Game Boy, we all know it begins from a fixed state.  On the emulator, if you reset, say, 50 frames after power on, you will always get the same RNG.  If the Game Boy version works the same way, you may find it impossible to get the RNG you want in a reasonable amount of time.  To test if the RNG is so consistent, I suggest powering on the game, resetting just as the title screen appears, observing how the RNG is affected, recording the result, and repeating this process 50 times or so.  If any patterns emerge, the RNG cannot be manipulated to any state shortly after reset and some attempts to quickly manipulate luck can be futile.  (On the other hand, you may be lucky that it's consistent because it might allow you to manipulate the encounter RNG to a particularly nice state-- maybe 90 out of 93 steps.  All you'd then have to do is get the timing down fairly consistently and you'll have no problem running 90% of the game.)

There are two workarounds to this.  First, I don't know what SDA's rules are, but you may be able to get permission to time only from the soft reset.  In that case, you could take as long as you want or do anything to manipulate luck and it won't affect your run time.  If I were to hazard a guess, though, I'd say SDA would frown upon that.  Your second option is to further scramble the RNG.  Prior to resetting, the RNG is affected by opcodes and in particular, music and sound effects.  FatRatKnight has discovered that by using the game's sound test menu, you can scramble the RNG even further.  While it takes far too long to enter the menu for our TAS, it could be useful to you in an unassisted speedrun.

Poxnor

2011-06-09 10:09:41 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

There is precedent at SDA that you are allowed to muck with the PRNGs as much as you want before starting a run (so presumably that precedent carries over to what you do before starting a segment, too). So you could spend as much time as you like doing whatever you like to mess with the PRNGs before a segment (and hence the timing of a segment) begins, so long as that segment starts at the title screen. In that sense, there'd be a lot more freedom at SDA than in a TAS to get the PRNGs into an awesome state to start every segment.

One of the biggest problems that I foresee is mutant growth bonuses or new skills. There's no notification at the end of battle to tell you what you've gained; and, ideally, you'd save without going through the menus to see what you got. But, given that there's only one save slot...(ick). What would be ideal is a deterministic way to mess with the PRNGs prior to starting a segment, so you know for sure what's going to happen when you run a segment. But, from my understanding of what you've written here, plus the FAQ on TASvideos, it seems like there's a random element to the PRNG reseeding when you reset the console (as opposed to when you hard power-on the console) Sad

There is precedent at SDA that you are allowed to muck with the PRNGs as much as you want before starting a run (so presumably that precedent carries over to what you do before starting a segment, too).  So you could spend as much time as you like doing whatever you like to mess with the PRNGs before a segment (and hence the timing of a segment) begins, so long as that segment starts at the title screen.  In that sense, there'd be a lot more freedom at SDA than in a TAS to get the PRNGs into an awesome state to start every segment.

One of the biggest problems that I foresee is mutant growth bonuses or new skills.  There's no notification at the end of battle to tell you what you've gained; and, ideally, you'd save without going through the menus to see what you got.  But, given that there's only one save slot...(ick).  What would be ideal is a deterministic way to mess with the PRNGs prior to starting a segment, so you know for sure what's going to happen when you run a segment.  But, from my understanding of what you've written here, plus the FAQ on TASvideos, it seems like there's a random element to the PRNG reseeding when you reset the console (as opposed to when you hard power-on the console) :(

Poxnor

2011-06-27 05:25:16 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 14:24, you go right when you enter the World 2 caves. Going left is many steps shorter.

I finally got back to FFL, and I confirmed that going right is significantly faster in my route, for two reasons: first, it allows for the run-fail trick against the single, largely harmless Pirate. Secondly, the encounter rates are different on land and on water, meaning I actually make it further in the same number of encounters by going right. (Were I to go left, I would fight two battles almost immediately after hitting the water.)

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 14:59, you go up around the island rather than left and down. I believe this costs two extra steps or about half a second.

Again, I confirmed that the two steps have to be burned off somewhere -- here was as good as anywhere.

Quote from Bobo the King:

I was a little confused by your decision to waste steps and run away from an extra battle from 18:15 to 18:35. I conjectured you were trying to manipulate it so that you don't get any encounters in the BLUEKEY hall. Is it worth it instead of charging straight in? Would it still be worth it if you corrected the mistakes (?) above, gaining a few extra steps?

Sadly, no

Charging right into the hall is suicide.

Quote from Bobo the King:

At 19:53, you pick up all three treasure chests-- SILVER armor, a GRENADE, and a book of CURE-- but I didn't check whether you used all three.

I mistakenly replied earlier that I needed the Silver armour to survive getting beat up between then and when I get the Dragon armour. That must have been from an earlier version of my route which used different party orders. I just checked this evening and you're right -- I could have skipped the Silver armour using the same party orders I used in my submitted run (I think I may be able to skip the Silver helm, too). Nice catch Smiley

I must have been thinking of an older version of my route in which the mutant took a beating during the second ascent.

Interestingly, I would still have to walk up to all three chests (taking two more steps than if I skipped getting the Cure book), in order to avoid an encounter on Sei-Ryu's floor. Again, something about different encounter rates in different locations. That said, I could probably work the route such that I would walk up to the Cure chest without opening it.

Quote from Bobo the King:

Your other option would be to pace around inside the tower and subway until the RNG is aligned so that you avoid SU-ZAKU as best you can. Fighting three battles with him before reaching the first subway station strikes me as rather excessive...

Nice suggestion! I played with this just a little bit this evening, and I only need to burn off a few extra steps in the tower to get down to two encounters before the subway. I didn't mess around extensively to see if I could get that down even further to one.

Thanks for the feedback, Bobo the King! I look forward to improving this run sometime in the (distant) future Smiley

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 14:24, you go right when you enter the World 2 caves.  Going left is many steps shorter.[/quote]
I finally got back to FFL, and I confirmed that going right is significantly faster in my route, for two reasons: first, it allows for the run-fail trick against the single, largely harmless Pirate.  Secondly, the encounter rates are different on land and on water, meaning I actually make it further in the same number of encounters by going right.  (Were I to go left, I would fight two battles almost immediately after hitting the water.)

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 14:59, you go up around the island rather than left and down.  I believe this costs two extra steps or about half a second.[/quote]
Again, I confirmed that the two steps have to be burned off somewhere -- here was as good as anywhere.

[quote="Bobo the King"]I was a little confused by your decision to waste steps and run away from an extra battle from 18:15 to 18:35.  I conjectured you were trying to manipulate it so that you don't get any encounters in the BLUEKEY hall.  Is it worth it instead of charging straight in?  Would it still be worth it if you corrected the mistakes (?) above, gaining a few extra steps?[/quote]
Sadly, no :(  Charging right into the hall is suicide.

[quote="Bobo the King"]At 19:53, you pick up all three treasure chests-- SILVER armor, a GRENADE, and a book of CURE-- but I didn't check whether you used all three.[/quote]
I mistakenly replied earlier that I needed the Silver armour to survive getting beat up between then and when I get the Dragon armour.  That must have been from an earlier version of my route which used different party orders.  I just checked this evening and you're right -- I could have skipped the Silver armour using the same party orders I used in my submitted run (I think I may be able to skip the Silver helm, too).  Nice catch :)  I must have been thinking of an older version of my route in which the mutant took a beating during the second ascent.

Interestingly, I would still have to walk up to all three chests (taking two more steps than if I skipped getting the Cure book), in order to avoid an encounter on Sei-Ryu's floor.  Again, something about different encounter rates in different locations.  That said, I could probably work the route such that I would walk up to the Cure chest without opening it.

[quote="Bobo the King"]Your other option would be to pace around inside the tower and subway until the RNG is aligned so that you avoid SU-ZAKU as best you can.  Fighting three battles with him before reaching the first subway station strikes me as rather excessive...[/quote]
Nice suggestion!  I played with this just a little bit this evening, and I only need to burn off a few extra steps in the tower to get down to two encounters before the subway.  I didn't mess around extensively to see if I could get that down even further to one.

Thanks for the feedback, Bobo the King!  I look forward to improving this run sometime in the (distant) future :)

Poxnor

2011-11-19 06:32:13 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I've given some thought as to how to abuse the "stocked meat" glitch in SaGa v1.0 (FFL Japanese v1.0). Here's my thought for the start of a new game (single-segment, without major-skip glitches)...

Start as Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit a Lizard (G, 0:0)
Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit a Goblin (A, 0:0)
Goblin (A, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0)

Lizard (G, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1)

O-Bake (L, 1:0) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2)

Recruit a Albatros (C, 0:0)
Goblin (A, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2)

Drgonfly (K, 2:1) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0), Werewolf (H, 3:2)

Werewolf (H, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3)

Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4)

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4), Beetle (J, 6:5)

Eagle (C, 5:4) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3), Beetle (J, 6:5), Triceras (D, 7:6)

Hornet (K, 4:3) eats stocked meat.
Goblin (A, 0:0), Gecko (G, 2:2), Beetle (J, 6:5), Triceras (D, 7:6)

Goblin (A, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Beetle (J, 6:5), Triceras (D, 7:6)

Triceras (D, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Beetle (J, 6:5), Ogre (A, 7:6)

Beetle (J, 6:5) eats stocked meat.
Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7)

Ogre (A, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Tororo (E, 9:8)

Red Bone (B, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
Gecko (G, 2:2), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Tororo (E, 9:8)

Tororo (E, 9:8) eats stocked meat.
Gecko (G, 2:2), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Giant (A, A:9)

Gecko (G, 2:2) eats stocked meat.
Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Giant (A, A:9), Cocatris (C, B:A)

Giant (A, A:9) eats stocked meat.
Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Cocatris (C, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B)

Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats stocked meat.
Buruburu (L, 8:7), Cocatris (C, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Rock (C, D:C)

Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats stocked meat.
Cocatris (C, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)

Salamand (G, C:B) eats stocked meat.
Cocatris (C, B:A), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)

Then, fight a Goblin (A, 0:0) somewhere on Continent. Cocatris eats Goblin meat to become a Warrior (B, B:A).

Thoughts? Alternately, I could try an approach that would leave me with a Beetle, while maximizing the level of everyone else in the party. But, compared to three second-highest-level monsters and a Warrior, I honestly wonder if having a Beetle would be worth it for the few fights it could slightly speed up?

I've given some thought as to how to abuse the "stocked meat" glitch in SaGa v1.0 (FFL Japanese v1.0).  Here's my thought for the start of a new game (single-segment, without major-skip glitches)...

[hidden]
Start as Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit a Lizard (G, 0:0)
[i]Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)[/i]

Recruit a Goblin (A, 0:0)
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)[/i]

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0)[/i]

Lizard (G, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1)[/i]

O-Bake (L, 1:0) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2)[/i]

Recruit a Albatros (C, 0:0)
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2)[/i]

Drgonfly (K, 2:1) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0), Werewolf (H, 3:2)[/i]

Werewolf (H, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3)[/i]

Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4)[/i]

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4), Beetle (J, 6:5)[/i]

Eagle (C, 5:4) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Hornet (K, 4:3), Beetle (J, 6:5), Triceras (D, 7:6)[/i]

Hornet (K, 4:3) eats stocked meat.
[i]Goblin (A, 0:0), Gecko (G, 2:2), Beetle (J, 6:5), Triceras (D, 7:6)[/i]

Goblin (A, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
[i]Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Beetle (J, 6:5), Triceras (D, 7:6)[/i]

Triceras (D, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
[i]Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Beetle (J, 6:5), Ogre (A, 7:6)[/i]

Beetle (J, 6:5) eats stocked meat.
[i]Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7)[/i]

Ogre (A, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
[i]Gecko (G, 2:2), Red Bone (B, 3:2), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Tororo (E, 9:8)[/i]

Red Bone (B, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
[i]Gecko (G, 2:2), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Tororo (E, 9:8)[/i]

Tororo (E, 9:8) eats stocked meat.
[i]Gecko (G, 2:2), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Giant (A, A:9)[/i]

Gecko (G, 2:2) eats stocked meat.
[i]Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Giant (A, A:9), Cocatris (C, B:A)[/i]

Giant (A, A:9) eats stocked meat.
[i]Buruburu (L, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Cocatris (C, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B)[/i]

Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats stocked meat.
[i]Buruburu (L, 8:7), Cocatris (C, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Rock (C, D:C)[/i]

Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats stocked meat.
[i]Cocatris (C, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)[/i]

Salamand (G, C:B) eats stocked meat.
[i]Cocatris (C, B:A), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)[/i]

Then, fight a Goblin (A, 0:0) somewhere on Continent.  Cocatris eats Goblin meat to become a Warrior (B, B:A).
[/hidden]
Thoughts?  Alternately, I could try an approach that would leave me with a Beetle, while maximizing the level of everyone else in the party.  But, compared to three second-highest-level monsters and a Warrior, I honestly wonder if having a Beetle would be worth it for the few fights it could slightly speed up?

Poxnor

2011-11-19 07:12:00 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Sorry for the double-post -- I'm just bouncing ideas as they come to me.

As an alternative approach, I could go for a Beetle and three high-level monsters to start the game. There's a path where you start as a Redbull, and wind up with Beetle (J, 6:5), Salamand (G, C:B), Titan (A, D:C), Boneking (B, D:C). The trick then would just be to find a way to advance the Beetle to a Warrior after killing Byak-Ko. That could be challenging to do in one ascent, even with the stocked meat glitch.

Poxnor

2011-11-21 01:42:41 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I've discovered the joy of the Spector monster class. I never realized that there was a monster that could use Stone! The Mutant that I took in the English-language version is rendered completely obsolete with this Japanese-version glitch.

I have a route that gives me two Spectors during the first ascent (from Continent to Water World). I lack the Beetle to kill Sei-Ryu instantly, but I hardly think that will matter with a pair of Spectors, some other nasty level-13 monster, and a Warrior.

If there's any interest, I could open a YouTube account and post a demo video of my route plan for the first world and ascent, and maybe get some feedback (that is, if I'm not just talking to myself on this board). But, I'd need to learn how to transliterate "Poxnor" into Japanese to name my main character, haha.

Tranquilite

2011-11-21 11:50:59 am

X is a tricky one to transliterate into Japanese, but if i had a go at it I would try "Po-ku-su-no-ru" or maybe "Pa-ku-su-no-ru". Though sometimes there is no right way (and therefor no wrong way) to katakana-ize a name.

Poxnor

2011-11-21 12:12:19 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Haha, FFL limits me to four characters for a name. Po-zu-no-ru? Po-ku-so-no? Po-ku-su (echoing POX as my English FFL name)? Not that it really matters -- I just detest people who strip the StatID off SDA runs and repost them on YouTube as "theirs," so I want a character named after me to identify the run as mine (ego!) Wink

Anyhow, thanks for your help Tranquilite. I'll try to post something within the week (once I get my DVD recorder set up again, etc.). I'd love to get some feedback on my first-world and first-ascent route -- it's so wildly and completely different from the English-language version that I'm actually excited about FFL again Smiley

Poxnor

2011-11-22 09:25:13 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I've found some conflicting information on what exactly the Stealth and Warning monster abilities do. Does anyone know for sure what those abilities do? I'm trying to decide if it's worth keeping, e.g., a Rock in the party (to keep those two abilities) vs. giving up the Rock for a more effective attacker.

Poxnor

2011-11-23 02:39:20 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

After some more reading, I think that the general opinion is that Stealth increases your odds of getting (or allows at all?) a preemptive attack, and Warning prevents surprise attacks. I'm still not certain; but, if that's correct, it would be nice having a monster with those abilities in the party. I've adjusted my route to keep the Rock, instead of mucking around to get a second Spector.

I'm at one of the most annoying parts of the run for planning: Sei-Ryu's castle. I get five encounters in that idiotic outhouse where the key is on the first floor. In my English-language route, I was able to manipulate away any encounters in that outhouse, but I've had no such luck in the Japanese version. At least the encounters are no threat in this run, but it's really annoying.

Anyhow, I'll be sure to post something within the week, to solicit some feedback on the early part of my route (in retrospect, I wish I had posted works-in-progress of my English-language run to get more feedback early).

After some more reading, I think that the general opinion is that Stealth increases your odds of getting (or allows at all?) a preemptive attack, and Warning prevents surprise attacks.  I'm still not certain; but, if that's correct, it would be nice having a monster with those abilities in the party.  I've adjusted my route to keep the Rock, instead of mucking around to get a second Spector.

I'm at one of the most annoying parts of the run for planning: Sei-Ryu's castle.  I get [i]five[/i] encounters in that idiotic outhouse where the key is on the first floor.  In my English-language route, I was able to manipulate away any encounters in that outhouse, but I've had no such luck in the Japanese version.  At least the encounters are no threat in this run, but it's really annoying.

Anyhow, I'll be sure to post something within the week, to solicit some feedback on the early part of my route (in retrospect, I wish I had posted works-in-progress of my English-language run to get more feedback early).

UserName001

2011-11-23 04:39:07 am

Great run Poxnor (and thanks ShinerCCC)... I love this game.

I've probably beat FFL at least twice a year (as 1 human or 4 mutants) for at least 20 years! (...but I haven't played it at normal speed in at least 10 years lol)

It's just such a fun game for some reason.

I knew about the awesome possibilities that monsters bring, but I never bothered to learn the meat/transformation stuff.

I was surprised you were talking about RNG tracking for the escapes because I remembered from Alex Jacksons very interesting gamefaqs thread:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/563273-the-final-fantasy-legend/42816299

Quote:

The chance to escape from a battle isn't dependent on any stats of either your party or the enemy (except that non-random battles can't be escaped from, of course) It's a hardcoded flat 50% chance.

Is that still true, but the 50/50 is trackable? Or was he mistaken? Lots of other interesting info in that thread if you haven't seen it btw.

Poxnor

2011-11-23 04:46:07 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from UserName001:

Great run Poxnor

Thanks

Quote from UserName001:

Is that still true, but the 50/50 is trackable? Or was he mistaken? Lots of other interesting info in that thread if you haven't seen it btw.

I'm not sure if it's exactly 50/50, but it is entirely trackable and completely non-dependent on your party's stats. There is a dedicated pseudo-random number generator that outputs a fixed sequence of true/false values (e.g., true-true-false-true-false-false-etc.) that determines whether or not you escape from a battle when you attempt to run. It doesn't matter what you're fighting, and it doesn't matter what your party's stats are. It's a fixed sequence of boolean (true/false) values. The only exceptions are guards that you touch (these are battles from which you can never escape) and preemptive battles (which you can always flee, and you do so without polling the PRNG for its next value).

Rakuen

2011-11-23 02:26:49 pm

Weegee Time

Incidentally, since there's only two possible values (true/false), every individual escape appears to be a 50% chance. So Alex Jackson is right in the short term. Although since Poxnor has his escapes planned, I'd be curious what the pattern of escapes you have shows about the long term %...

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2011-11-23 02:43:59 pm

2011-11-23 02:42:54 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Quote from Rakuen:

Incidentally, since there's only two possible values (true/false), every individual escape appears to be a 50% chance.

Unfortunately, that's a fallacy. If 90% of the time the PRNG outputs "true," then your odds of running, aggregated over the whole game, would be 90%. Of course, to actually know those odds, you'd need to record the success/failure of attempting to run from a large number of non-preemptive battles.

Quote from Rakuen:

Although since Poxnor has his escapes planned, I'd be curious what the pattern of escapes you have shows about the long term %...

I didn't really pay any attention to the statistics (i.e., what percentage of the time I was able to run, etc.). For all I know, in aggregate, the odds could be exactly 50%; or, they could be something different entirely. I know that ShinerCCC compiled a list of 100 attempts to run (I'm not sure if he excluded preemptive battles from that list). But, I can't seem to find that list now.

At the end of the day, it doesn't much matter though, aside from just sort of being interesting. The important thing, from the perspective of a speedrun, is knowing that fixed sequence of booleans. Burn off the false values against harmless enemies (then win the battle), and save the true values for when they're really needed.

[quote="Rakuen"]Incidentally, since there's only two possible values (true/false), every individual escape appears to be a 50% chance.[/quote]
Unfortunately, that's a fallacy.  If 90% of the time the PRNG outputs "true," then your odds of running, aggregated over the whole game, would be 90%.  Of course, to actually know those odds, you'd need to record the success/failure of attempting to run from a large number of non-preemptive battles.

[quote="Rakuen"]Although since Poxnor has his escapes planned, I'd be curious what the pattern of escapes you have shows about the long term %...[/quote]
I didn't really pay any attention to the statistics (i.e., what percentage of the time I was able to run, etc.).  For all I know, in aggregate, the odds could be exactly 50%; or, they could be something different entirely.  I know that ShinerCCC compiled a list of 100 attempts to run (I'm not sure if he excluded preemptive battles from that list).  But, I can't seem to find that list now.

At the end of the day, it doesn't much matter though, aside from just sort of being interesting.  The important thing, from the perspective of a speedrun, is knowing that fixed sequence of booleans.  Burn off the false values against harmless enemies (then win the battle), and save the true values for when they're really needed.

Poxnor

2011-11-24 12:37:34 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Well, I don't know what I was thinking with wanting to get rid of a Rock. They destroy screens of enemies instantly in the first two worlds (Tornado). More useful than the Spector at that stage of the game. The Baku would probably be another good choice (P-Blast), though there's no obvious path of meat eating that yields a Baku that I've yet seen.

Also, I've had to change my thinking a bit. In the English run, it was generally faster just to destroy enemies instead of suffering through a long string of run-fails (and getting wailed on the whole time). Since nothing can hurt me in the first two worlds (assuming I avoid having monsters with an X-Ice "ability" in my party), my thinking has to change a little in the Japanese version. I'm thinking flee from everything, unless I'm sitting on a chain of run fails against a large group of enemies (3 or more enemies? 4 or more?) -- then, have the Rock destroy everything instead of constantly trying to run away. Burn off the run-fails against smaller groups of enemies to save time (as they attack you). This basic strategy may carry me through to Sei-Ryu's castle fairly quickly, but I'll have to put some thought into what to do beyond that, as enemy groups grow larger (hence, failed run attempts waste a lot of time).

Well, I don't know what I was thinking with wanting to get rid of a Rock.  They destroy screens of enemies instantly in the first two worlds (Tornado).  More useful than the Spector at that stage of the game.  The Baku would probably be another good choice (P-Blast), though there's no obvious path of meat eating that yields a Baku that I've yet seen.

Also, I've had to change my thinking a bit.  In the English run, it was generally faster just to destroy enemies instead of suffering through a long string of run-fails (and getting wailed on the whole time).  Since nothing can hurt me in the first two worlds (assuming I avoid having monsters with an X-Ice "ability" in my party), my thinking has to change a little in the Japanese version.  I'm thinking flee from everything, unless I'm sitting on a chain of run fails against a large group of enemies (3 or more enemies?  4 or more?) -- then, have the Rock destroy everything instead of constantly trying to run away.  Burn off the run-fails against smaller groups of enemies to save time (as they attack you).  This basic strategy may carry me through to Sei-Ryu's castle fairly quickly, but I'll have to put some thought into what to do beyond that, as enemy groups grow larger (hence, failed run attempts waste a lot of time).

ShinerCCC

2011-11-24 07:10:35 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

here's the list of escape outcomes, using the default colour scheme (red character, green and blue everything else, don't press any buttons as the GBA turns on). 1 means success, 0 means failure. There might be a mistake because I might have missed a Stealth sneak attack, i.e. a 1 where there shouldn't be one.

111
0010000110100000010001111
00001001110001110101010010

00010110011101101100101000111000101
01100110101010110000111010101101011111
00011011110010111111011100000111101100011110011010101
11011110100110001001001101011100011101010011001

I think the complete RNG table is posted somewhere on TASVideos too, so you can just figure it out from that.

Rakuen

2011-11-24 08:16:04 am

Weegee Time

118/227 = 51.98%

I'm not going to go through all the tables, but it looks like it should indeed approach 50% over time. Huzzah, curiosity!

Poxnor

2011-11-26 01:57:47 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

As promised, here is my route from the start of the game until the Airseed (I haven't planned much further than the Airseed). I'd love any feedback. Execution isn't perfect (I was tired and under-practiced for making this video), but I'm just after feedback on the route -- execution can be improved at a later date Wink

SDA timing has me getting the Airseed at 10:04; could be around 10:00 with better execution.

Poxnor

2011-11-30 04:53:24 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I've found a much faster opening. There's one thing I failed to take into account about the stocked meat glitch in my recording: if you run from a battle, the meat of the leftmost enemy in that battle becomes the stocked meat that you can eat for free.

I've reduced my plan from 19 stocked meat consumptions to 14 stocked meat consumptions (!!) by utilizing this fact for the first three battle of the game (Goblin, Zombie, and a group of three enemies with a Lizard on the left).

Here are the details, where "eats the battle meat of X" means "get into a fight with X, run away, then eat the stocked meat":

Start as a Clipper (J, 0:0)
Recruit a Lizard (G, 0:0)
Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)
Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats the battle meat of a Goblin (A, 0:0)
Lizard (G, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
O-Bake (L, 1:0) eats stocked meat.
Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Drgonfly (K, 2:1) eats stocked meat.
Beetle (J, 6:5) eats the battle meat of a Zombie (F, 0:0)
Hornet (K, 4:3) eats stocked meat.
Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats the battle meat of a Lizard (G, 0:0)
Werewolf (H, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
Ogre (A, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
Eagle (C, 5:4) eats stocked meat.
Thunder (C, 9:8) eats stocked meat.
Dinosaur (G, A:9) eats stocked meat.

End result: Warrior (B, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)

I've found a [i]much[/i] faster opening.  There's one thing I failed to take into account about the stocked meat glitch in my recording: if you run from a battle, the meat of the leftmost enemy in that battle becomes the stocked meat that you can eat for free.

I've reduced my plan from 19 stocked meat consumptions to 14 stocked meat consumptions (!!) by utilizing this fact for the first three battle of the game (Goblin, Zombie, and a group of three enemies with a Lizard on the left).

Here are the details, where "eats the battle meat of X" means "get into a fight with X, run away, then eat the stocked meat":

Start as a Clipper (J, 0:0)
Recruit a Lizard (G, 0:0)
Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)
Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats the battle meat of a Goblin (A, 0:0)
Lizard (G, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
O-Bake (L, 1:0) eats stocked meat.
Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
Drgonfly (K, 2:1) eats stocked meat.
Beetle (J, 6:5) eats the battle meat of a Zombie (F, 0:0)
Hornet (K, 4:3) eats stocked meat.
Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats the battle meat of a Lizard (G, 0:0)
Werewolf (H, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
Ogre (A, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
Eagle (C, 5:4) eats stocked meat.
Thunder (C, 9:8) eats stocked meat.
Dinosaur (G, A:9) eats stocked meat.

End result: Warrior (B, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)

Poxnor

2011-12-05 05:57:09 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

I think that multiple monsters having Stealth may stack -- that is, having two monsters with Stealth will double the odds of getting a preemptive encounter, relative to just having one monster.

With that observation, here is how to get two monsters with Stealth and one with Telepor in the quickest way up until beating King Sword:

1: Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit a Lizard (G, 0:0)
2: Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)
3: Albatros (C, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)
4: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats the battle meat of a Goblin (A, 0:0)
5: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0)

Lizard (G, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
6: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1)

O-Bake (L, 1:0) eats stocked meat.
7: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2)

Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
8: Albatros (C, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3)

Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
9: Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4)

Drgonfly (K, 2:1) eats stocked meat.
10: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4), Beetle (J, 6:5)

Beetle (J, 6:5) eats the battle meat of a Zombie (F, 0:0)
11: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4), Ogre (A, 7:6)

Hornet (K, 4:3) eats stocked meat.
12: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Eagle (C, 5:4), Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7)

Eagle (C, 5:4) eats stocked meat.
13: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Ogre (A, 7:6), Mou-Jya (F, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7)

Mou-Jya (F, 8:7) eats the battle meat of a Lizard (G, 0:0)
14: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Thunder (C, 9:8)

Werewolf (H, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
15: Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Thunder (C, 9:8), Dinosaur (G, A:9)

Ogre (A, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
16: Buruburu (L, 8:7), Thunder (C, 9:8), Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A)

Thunder (C, 9:8) eats stocked meat.
17: Buruburu (L, 8:7), Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B)

Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats stocked meat.
18: Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Rock (C, D:C)

Salamand (G, C:B) eats the battle meat of a Skeleton (B, 0:0)
19: Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)

Dinosaur (G, A:9) eats stocked meat.
20: Warrior (B, B:A), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)

I also think that the initial recruitment of a Clipper can be replaced by the recruitment of a human or mutant. While it doesn't save any SDA time (timing starts when your first character appears in Base Town), it certainly increases the WTF-factor Wink

I think that multiple monsters having Stealth may stack -- that is, having two monsters with Stealth will double the odds of getting a preemptive encounter, relative to just having one monster.

With that observation, here is how to get two monsters with Stealth and one with Telepor in the quickest way up until beating King Sword:

[hidden]

1: Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit a Lizard (G, 0:0)
2: Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)
3: Albatros (C, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Recruit an Albatros (C, 0:0)
4: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), Clipper (J, 0:0)

Clipper (J, 0:0) eats the battle meat of a Goblin (A, 0:0)
5: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Lizard (G, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0)

Lizard (G, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
6: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), O-Bake (L, 1:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1)

O-Bake (L, 1:0) eats stocked meat.
7: Albatros (C, 0:0), Albatros (C, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2)

Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
8: Albatros (C, 0:0), Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3)

Albatros (C, 0:0) eats stocked meat.
9: Drgonfly (K, 2:1), Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4)

Drgonfly (K, 2:1) eats stocked meat.
10: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4), Beetle (J, 6:5)

Beetle (J, 6:5) eats the battle meat of a Zombie (F, 0:0)
11: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Hornet (K, 4:3), Eagle (C, 5:4), Ogre (A, 7:6)

Hornet (K, 4:3) eats stocked meat.
12: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Eagle (C, 5:4), Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7)

Eagle (C, 5:4) eats stocked meat.
13: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Ogre (A, 7:6), Mou-Jya (F, 8:7), Buruburu (L, 8:7)

Mou-Jya (F, 8:7) eats the battle meat of a Lizard (G, 0:0)
14: Werewolf (H, 3:2), Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Thunder (C, 9:8)

Werewolf (H, 3:2) eats stocked meat.
15: Ogre (A, 7:6), Buruburu (L, 8:7), Thunder (C, 9:8), Dinosaur (G, A:9)

Ogre (A, 7:6) eats stocked meat.
16: Buruburu (L, 8:7), Thunder (C, 9:8), Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A)

Thunder (C, 9:8) eats stocked meat.
17: Buruburu (L, 8:7), Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B)

Buruburu (L, 8:7) eats stocked meat.
18: Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A), Salamand (G, C:B), Rock (C, D:C)

Salamand (G, C:B) eats the battle meat of a Skeleton (B, 0:0)
19: Dinosaur (G, A:9), Warrior (B, B:A), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)

Dinosaur (G, A:9) eats stocked meat.
20: Warrior (B, B:A), Titan (A, D:C), Rock (C, D:C), Rock (C, D:C)
[/hidden]
I also think that the initial recruitment of a Clipper can be replaced by the recruitment of a human or mutant.  While it doesn't save any SDA time (timing starts when your first character appears in Base Town), it certainly increases the WTF-factor ;)

jimsfriend

2011-12-06 11:09:07 am

Like A Fox

I'm currently playing through this game for the first time (no guides, FAQ, etc), and am at Su-Zaku world. I'm glad to see this topic and will read/watch the stuff in it when I'm all done. Haven't read anything yet since I don't want spoilers (I don't even know how many worlds I have to go through, for example), but definitely will when I'm done! Keep it up Smiley

Poxnor

2011-12-07 01:13:14 am

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Hmm, if Stealth really does stack, am I further ahead to go with a route of Titan, Rock, Rock, Warrior from the beginning; or, am I better off to go with Titan, Rock, Rock, Rock (which takes one more stocked-meat eat), despite the fact that I won't be able to waste Su-Zaku and Creator in one hit (but will get more preemptive encounters)?

ShinerCCC

2011-12-11 10:04:45 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Creator is actually kind of tough to beat just because of the number crunch. He has very high HP and defenses, and some powerful attack. Creator's AI is predictable though, his chosen move is determined only by his remaining HP. I know there's a really nasty trap in there something like...at 20% remaining his he uses HEAL to recover to 100% HP, at 10% he uses FLARE which will probably wipe out a team of monsters. If your Rocks have a move like TORNADO you can win a regular encounter pretty easily as it is.

Poxnor

2011-12-11 10:22:49 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

Thanks for the information, Shiner! Smiley

(I was beginning to worry I was talking to myself here, haha.)

I think one of the biggest challenges will be keeping a Warrior alive for the entire run, but after a little playing around I think I agree that's the right way to go. As for the number crunch problem, let's say hypothetically that I didn't keep a Warrior in the party; in this case, I would have four E:E monsters immediately after the Gen-Bu2 fight (stocked meat glitch), but would even they not survive and/or not be effective enough against Creator?

As for the Rock's Tornado skill, it's "Tornado 3", so it runs out really quickly in random battles. It has me wondering if running from every single encounter for the entire game might be the right strategy? You can use the stocked meat glitch to get a new monster if someone dies, but what monster you'll actually get is so situation-based (last fight, last transformation, etc.).

I'm also questioning whether or not Stealth stacks. I'll have to do some actual controlled tests to determine that; I just haven't had time.

Thanks for the information, Shiner! :)  (I was beginning to worry I was talking to myself here, haha.)

I think one of the biggest challenges will be keeping a Warrior alive for the entire run, but after a little playing around I think I agree that's the right way to go.  As for the number crunch problem, let's say hypothetically that I didn't keep a Warrior in the party; in this case, I would have four E:E monsters immediately after the Gen-Bu2 fight (stocked meat glitch), but would even they not survive and/or not be effective enough against Creator?

As for the Rock's Tornado skill, it's "Tornado 3", so it runs out really quickly in random battles.  It has me wondering if running from every single encounter for the entire game might be the right strategy?  You can use the stocked meat glitch to get a new monster if someone dies, but what monster you'll actually get is so situation-based (last fight, last transformation, etc.).

I'm also questioning whether or not Stealth stacks.  I'll have to do some actual controlled tests to determine that; I just haven't had time.