Final Fantasy 1 - Segmented (Run Submitted!)

2010-10-24 11:01:32 am

I'll try my best to answer the question, but if I ever decide to do another run with that party, I'll need a lot of additional planning and testing. So treat this as a first guess on a good route for Fi/Rm/Rm/Rm.

First, this party is pretty interesting in itself but it lacks the Fighter duo that allows first-trip Eye farming, and it lacks the White Mage who allows early Geist hunting. This means that there is probably a better battle offset than 117 for this party, but I don't know what it is yet. For this reason, I won't go into details about the exact battles that are used for earning Level 5 before the Marsh Cave. Let's just say we aim for maximum Ogres, Sharks, and Kyzokus, and we run from the rest.

1. Buy 4xRapier, 2xChain, FIRE, LIT, go fight Garland, and if possible fight a Ghoul.
2. Back to Coneria, Inn and buy LIT and CURE.
3. Travel to Pravoka, fight 2 Ogres, then go fight Bikke. Buy 2xICE and Inn.
4. Sail to the Dwarf Cave, but go in Coneria on the way and buy 2xChain, 2xCURE, FIRE, FOG, and 2xTent.
5. Pick up the 1025 G in Dwarf Cave, then travel to Elfland.
6. At Elfland, buy an Iron shield, a Wooden helmet, 12-15 Heal potions and 7-10 Pure potions.
7. Tentx2 in front of the Marsh Cave, pick up Short sword, Copper bracelet, Iron armor, a House, and the CROWN.
8. Go straight to Astos, House in front
9. Do the side quests for the KEY. While at Elfcastle, pick up the chests, and in Elfland buy LIT2, 3xFIR2 and 2-4 Soft.
10. Do the side quests toward Melmond. Buy some Heal and Pure potions at Coneria on the way.
11. Buy Long sword and Iron gauntlet, then go to the Earth Cave. Cabin in front. Should be Level 6.
12. Go to the Vampire, pick up Coral sword on the way, then go directly get the ROD and back, re-House. Level 7.
13. Do the Earth Cave and defeat Lich.
14. Go to Crescentlake, sell fruity swords, buy Silver stuff, get Canoe.
15. Do the Ice Cave, then buy goodies (FAST, ICE2, CUR2, maybe AFIR/MUTE for Ordeals)
16. Do Ordeals, pick up Zeus, Heal, etc. Class change. Should be around Level 10-11.
17. Do the Gurgu Volcano. Pick up the second Ice sword. Kill off two Red Mages. Farm Agamas until Level 16.
18. Revive all. Buy WARP, LIFE and CUR3. Buy 2xRUSE and potions. Buy BOTTLE. Buy 3-4 x ProRing and get OXYALE.
19. Do the Waterfall, get chests and CUBE, WARP.
20. House, do the Sea Shrine top floors, WARPx2, do the lower floors and Kraken. Don't get Opal armor and shield.
21. Learn Lefeinish, WARP. Get CHIME at Lefein, WARP. House in front of the Mirage tower.
22. Do the Mirage tower and Sky palace. Pick up good chests. Avoid Warmech. Defeat Tiamat w/o BANE.
23. Pick up Xcalber, restock on Heal potions if low, then House in front of ToF.
24. Enter the ToFR. On Earth floor, petrify all but the Knight. Beat Lich2, then Kary2.
25. On water floor, unpetrify one weak RW. Beat Kraken2.
26. Pick up Masmune, then unpetrify the strong RW, WARP, and defeat Tiamat2.
27. Revive whoever's dead (one max.), swap Ribbon toward Knight, defeat Chaos.

Essentially, do Ice Cave first and farm Agamas, plus vary strategies against bosses.

I'll try my best to answer the question, but if I ever decide to do another run with that party, I'll need a lot of additional planning and testing. So treat this as a first guess on a good route for Fi/Rm/Rm/Rm.

First, this party is pretty interesting in itself but it lacks the Fighter duo that allows first-trip Eye farming, and it lacks the White Mage who allows early Geist hunting. This means that there is probably a better battle offset than 117 for this party, but I don't know what it is yet. For this reason, I won't go into details about the exact battles that are used for earning Level 5 before the Marsh Cave. Let's just say we aim for maximum Ogres, Sharks, and Kyzokus, and we run from the rest.

1. Buy 4xRapier, 2xChain, FIRE, LIT, go fight Garland, and if possible fight a Ghoul.
2. Back to Coneria, Inn and buy LIT and CURE.
3. Travel to Pravoka, fight 2 Ogres, then go fight Bikke. Buy 2xICE and Inn.
4. Sail to the Dwarf Cave, but go in Coneria on the way and buy 2xChain, 2xCURE, FIRE, FOG, and 2xTent.
5. Pick up the 1025 G in Dwarf Cave, then travel to Elfland.
6. At Elfland, buy an Iron shield, a Wooden helmet, 12-15 Heal potions and 7-10 Pure potions.
7. Tentx2 in front of the Marsh Cave, pick up Short sword, Copper bracelet, Iron armor, a House, and the CROWN.
8. Go straight to Astos, House in front
9. Do the side quests for the KEY. While at Elfcastle, pick up the chests, and in Elfland buy LIT2, 3xFIR2 and 2-4 Soft.
10. Do the side quests toward Melmond. Buy some Heal and Pure potions at Coneria on the way.
11. Buy Long sword and Iron gauntlet, then go to the Earth Cave. Cabin in front. Should be Level 6.
12. Go to the Vampire, pick up Coral sword on the way, then go directly get the ROD and back, re-House. Level 7.
13. Do the Earth Cave and defeat Lich.
14. Go to Crescentlake, sell fruity swords, buy Silver stuff, get Canoe.
15. Do the Ice Cave, then buy goodies (FAST, ICE2, CUR2, maybe AFIR/MUTE for Ordeals)
16. Do Ordeals, pick up Zeus, Heal, etc. Class change. Should be around Level 10-11.
17. Do the Gurgu Volcano. Pick up the second Ice sword. Kill off two Red Mages. Farm Agamas until Level 16.
18. Revive all. Buy WARP, LIFE and CUR3. Buy 2xRUSE and potions. Buy BOTTLE. Buy 3-4 x ProRing and get OXYALE.
19. Do the Waterfall, get chests and CUBE, WARP.
20. House, do the Sea Shrine top floors, WARPx2, do the lower floors and Kraken. Don't get Opal armor and shield.
21. Learn Lefeinish, WARP. Get CHIME at Lefein, WARP. House in front of the Mirage tower.
22. Do the Mirage tower and Sky palace. Pick up good chests. Avoid Warmech. Defeat Tiamat w/o BANE.
23. Pick up Xcalber, restock on Heal potions if low, then House in front of ToF.
24. Enter the ToFR. On Earth floor, petrify all but the Knight. Beat Lich2, then Kary2.
25. On water floor, unpetrify one weak RW. Beat Kraken2.
26. Pick up Masmune, then unpetrify the strong RW, WARP, and defeat Tiamat2.
27. Revive whoever's dead (one max.), swap Ribbon toward Knight, defeat Chaos.

Essentially, do Ice Cave first and farm Agamas, plus vary strategies against bosses.

FionordeQuester

2010-10-24 05:47:39 pm

Thanks for the valuable information. I'm just wondering, if you were to do a Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm party, would you also kill off a Red Mage in that party?

Winkwonle

2010-10-25 04:05:19 am

Nope. The closer we get to my party of choice, the closer the strategy comes to that I chose. With Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm, the only part of the game that would be planned differently would be the beginning.

- To replace my Geist hunt, I'd probably buy 1xICE, go for the Dwarf Cave, loot that, and then come back to Pravoka for a Short sword and second ICE spell. That's not a dramatic loss of time because it makes you acquire exp on the way.
- I'd skip looting the Northwest castle because I'd have way too few FIR2 charges to handle Mummies comfortably. Red Mages cost less than White Mages to equip at Melmond anyway, so I'd still be OK money-wise.
- I'd have to reconsider the PNEOP, but I think I'd still not use it.
- I'd do Ordeals first, earn Level 12-13 on Zombie D's, then do the Ice cave, then Gurgu
- I'd still rely on Eyes for my late game exp
- I'd use a very similar strategy for the ToFR, except I'd have more charges of FAST and less charges of HEL2.

Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm is a darn good party (my second favorite). Also very powerful is Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm mind you. The only thing I reproach to Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm is that it's not faster than Fi/Fi/Rm/Wm but it's less reliable against the Wizards and for the Earth Cave. It makes a difference in that I'd be more likely to accept poor luck through the whole run with Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm because that may be the only way I'd be able to get one at all. I know you weren't suggesting that Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm could be a better party, but I'm still saying all this for reference, because both parties do perform quite similarly as far as my experience can tell.

Nope. The closer we get to my party of choice, the closer the strategy comes to that I chose. With Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm, the only part of the game that would be planned differently would be the beginning.

- To replace my Geist hunt, I'd probably buy 1xICE, go for the Dwarf Cave, loot that, and then come back to Pravoka for a Short sword and second ICE spell. That's not a dramatic loss of time because it makes you acquire exp on the way.
- I'd skip looting the Northwest castle because I'd have way too few FIR2 charges to handle Mummies comfortably. Red Mages cost less than White Mages to equip at Melmond anyway, so I'd still be OK money-wise.
- I'd have to reconsider the PNEOP, but I think I'd still not use it.
- I'd do Ordeals first, earn Level 12-13 on Zombie D's, then do the Ice cave, then Gurgu
- I'd still rely on Eyes for my late game exp
- I'd use a very similar strategy for the ToFR, except I'd have more charges of FAST and less charges of HEL2.

Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm is a darn good party (my second favorite). Also very powerful is Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm mind you. The only thing I reproach to Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm is that it's not faster than Fi/Fi/Rm/Wm but it's less reliable against the Wizards and for the Earth Cave. It makes a difference in that I'd be more likely to accept poor luck through the whole run with Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm because that may be the only way I'd be able to get one at all. I know you weren't suggesting that Fi/Fi/Rm/Rm could be a better party, but I'm still saying all this for reference, because both parties do perform quite similarly as far as my experience can tell.

Darkwing Duck

2010-10-26 08:53:11 pm

Highly Evolved

Admittedly, I haven't read through the thread, but can I get a very quick explanation on the stone strategy for Lich2 and Kary2?

FionordeQuester

2010-10-26 11:05:43 pm

It's so that for the Lich2, only one person has to deal with NUKE, which not only allows him to use much less HEALs than he would have to use than if he used the full party, but makes it so that nobody is at risk of dieing (the Lich2 is pretty pathetic outside of NUKE). Then, for Kary2, he has two Fighters unstoned, that way, no Red Mages are at risk of dieing before the Water Floor and Kraken2 (the first boss tough enough to justify using FAST).

Winkwonle

Edit history:

Winkwonle: 2010-10-27 05:08:51 am

2010-10-27 05:07:11 am

^ That's exactly it.

Fighters are the only ones to reach sufficiently early the threshold of 400 hp that it takes to not die from NUKE. I'd be tempted to think that my mages' 300-ish hp would be OK for survival, given that I have two of them ready for using LIFE after, but in effect it's not. NUKE is different from most elemental spells in that it almost always gets a "good hit" against your characters. In terms of game mechanics, that's because NUKE has an "accuracy" of 107, whereas ICE3 and such only have 24. At levels like mine, the real damage average of NUKE is somewhere around 300 and nothing can be done about it. (However, if I were to use it myself against Chaos, the average would be more like 200.)

I was really proud when I figured this petrification trick, but it turns out to not be such a novelty after all. As it happens, the Japanese real-time attack run uses it too, which has been available for two years IIRC.

WarMech

2010-11-11 05:29:58 pm

Good news! I got my DVD recorder working and have recorded my first few segments over the last few weeks. It was a good feeling (after 2 years) to finally change the subject of this thread to "Recording." It's tough to give an exact time frame, but I'm hoping to knock this thing out by the end of the year! Cheesy

ZenicReverie

2010-11-11 05:37:32 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Make sure to check quality in tech support before you get too far into it.

JohnRayJr

2010-11-11 07:35:16 pm

Just popping in to offer some encouragement to WarMech. I'm sure the segmented run will be awesome.

I just finished watching the 3:50 single-segment run for the game - one of the best new runs of the year.

WarMech

2010-11-14 03:50:28 pm

Holy Crap. This run is kicking so much ass the verifiers should just accept it now. Smiley

I'm sitting outside the Marsh Cave at 2 minutes and 30 seconds ahead of my "target times" posted in the spreadsheet on the first page. If this rate of improvement were to continue, then we'd be looking at a final time UNDER 2:40. Yeah...

Zenic: Will do. I'm recording it in HQ (highest setting the recorder allows) but I'll burn one of the bits now and submit it on the thread.
JohnRayJr: Thanks for the support! It's what keeps me going. I hope this one makes your list too, and I now have Winkwonle's. big shoes to fill.

FionordeQuester

2010-11-14 09:48:26 pm

Do you believe that the party you have chosen now is better than the Fi/FI/WM/BM party you used to try to use?

I have no name

2010-12-01 12:42:01 pm

Obscure games ftw

Just out of curiousity Winkwonle, why name the fighters Port and Atos, the red mage D'ar, and the white mage Aram?

PJ

2010-12-01 03:45:02 pm

Is PJ

Three musketeers!

ZenicReverie

2010-12-01 05:55:40 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from PJ:

Three musketeers!

I've always wondered why there were four 'three musketeers'...

Winkwonle

2010-12-07 12:37:05 pm

Quote:

why four 'three musketeers'...

My interpretation is that it's because d'Artagnan is just a cadet when the story begins, and contemplates the panache of the three musketeers that he then follows. Also, the three musketeers all have false names and caricatured character traits, whereas d'Artagnan is a more balanced figured, and he's the one that the reader really follows. In my opinion it makes sense to put the three other musketeers as a distinct phenomenon to base the title upon.

Now as to why I picked the musketeers, if anyone's interested in knowing that... It's one of my favorite books, to begin with, and it's a well-known cultural reference, seeing as there are no standard names for the FF1 heroes. It also seemed very appropriate here since I had to name, basically, two swordsmen, one priest, and one adventurer-type jack-of-all-trades. I thought that the attribution of the names fit naturally too: Aramis of course would be the sexually ambiguous White mage; Porthos no doubt would be a Fighter; Athos could have been the Red mage, as he looks more noble with his plumed hat, but I thought that it would be more convenient for d'Artagnan, who is indeed the more versatile of the four.

Quote:

I now have Winkwonle's big shoes to fill.

Please do

I can't wait to see your results!

[quote]why four 'three musketeers'...[/quote]
My interpretation is that it's because d'Artagnan is just a cadet when the story begins, and contemplates the panache of the three musketeers that he then follows. Also, the three musketeers all have false names and caricatured character traits, whereas d'Artagnan is a more balanced figured, and he's the one that the reader really follows. In my opinion it makes sense to put the three other musketeers as a distinct phenomenon to base the title upon.

Now as to why I picked the musketeers, if anyone's interested in knowing that... It's one of my favorite books, to begin with, and it's a well-known cultural reference, seeing as there are no standard names for the FF1 heroes. It also seemed very appropriate here since I had to name, basically, two swordsmen, one priest, and one adventurer-type jack-of-all-trades. I thought that the attribution of the names fit naturally too: Aramis of course would be the sexually ambiguous White mage; Porthos no doubt would be a Fighter; Athos could have been the Red mage, as he looks more noble with his plumed hat, but I thought that it would be more convenient for d'Artagnan, who is indeed the more versatile of the four.

[quote]I now have Winkwonle's big shoes to fill.[/quote]
Please do :)
I can't wait to see your results!

Winkwonle

Edit history:

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 02:41:27 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 01:40:46 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 01:39:59 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 01:36:19 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 01:31:11 pm

2011-06-19 01:30:15 pm

Is this dead?

-- WARNING: starting a new discussion!! --

I was being a little impatient, so I went on and did some testing of my own on a segmented run. For now I'm only using the emulator and I'm not giving dungeons their optimal battle counter and step counter offsets or anything. If I do end up going on with the run, this is something I'll need to figure out or get from WarMech if he's willing to encourage his competition a little bit. Roll Eyes

So my basic idea is to do the whole run with just a Fighter and a Black Mage. With this team I only need to level-up to 13 to get WARPx2 and 4-hits with Masmune. Traveling with only two characters reduces the time for multiple-ally-targeting abilities, and accelerates the selecting of battle actions. Finally, only the two front characters have consistent chances of running away in combat, and the Black Mage starts with a luck stat of 10 (second-best).

After some reflection (and testing), I realized that the early dungeons, chiefly the Earth Cave, are just too dangerous to do with only two (low-level) characters. Killing two birds with one stone, I decided to pad the team with two White Mages and use them for early Peninsula-of-Power and/or GEIST grinding. After the Earth Cave, that is when I get steady access to monsters that can petrify, what I do is that I change both white mages to stone right before entering any dungeon, and whenever I need healing inside a dungeon, I unpetrify one, empty all their spell charges, and leave them to die unarmored on the front row.

I actually have a detailed route already, but I'm not 100% set on some of the smaller details like when and where to do my various shopping, and how many TENTs and HEAL potions to buy (it's hard to anticipate the exact amount required for the Temple of Fiends). So far I've computed a very rough estimate of a reasonable objective time between 2:00:00 and 2:15:00.

More than anything, I'm very annoyed by the idea that old NES cartridges are subject to running out of battery power. Realistically, doing a segmented run is a long project to complete, plus I don't know how much free time I'll have during next year. Consider this post a way of checking how many people are still interested in the segmented run and how many would be willing to re-enter yet another discussion about all this. I'd like it very much if WarMech could give us a quick update on his state of motivation and/or new-found conclusions, too (hoping that starting an alternate discussion won't kill what's left of said motivation).

OK, I'll stop here, but I'm waiting for responses.

Is this dead?

-- WARNING: starting a new discussion!! --

I was being a little impatient, so I went on and [b]did some testing of my own on a segmented run[/b]. For now I'm only using the emulator and I'm not giving dungeons their optimal battle counter and step counter offsets or anything. If I do end up going on with the run, this is something I'll need to figure out or get from WarMech if he's willing to encourage his competition a little bit. ::)

So my basic idea is to do the whole run with just a Fighter and a Black Mage. With this team I only need to level-up to 13 to get WARPx2 and 4-hits with Masmune. Traveling with only two characters reduces the time for multiple-ally-targeting abilities, and accelerates the selecting of battle actions. Finally, only the two front characters have consistent chances of running away in combat, and the Black Mage starts with a luck stat of 10 (second-best).

After some reflection (and testing), I realized that the early dungeons, chiefly the Earth Cave, are just too dangerous to do with only two (low-level) characters. Killing two birds with one stone, I decided to pad the team with two White Mages and use them for early Peninsula-of-Power and/or GEIST grinding. After the Earth Cave, that is when I get steady access to monsters that can petrify, what I do is that I change both white mages to stone right before entering any dungeon, and whenever I need healing inside a dungeon, I unpetrify one, empty all their spell charges, and leave them to die unarmored on the front row.

I actually have a detailed route already, but I'm not 100% set on some of the smaller details like when and where to do my various shopping, and how many TENTs and HEAL potions to buy (it's hard to anticipate the exact amount required for the Temple of Fiends). So far I've computed a very rough estimate of a [b]reasonable objective time between 2:00:00 and 2:15:00[/b].

More than anything, I'm very annoyed by the idea that old NES cartridges are subject to running out of battery power. Realistically, doing a segmented run is a long project to complete, plus I don't know how much free time I'll have during next year. Consider this post a way of checking how many people are still interested in the segmented run and how many would be willing to re-enter yet another discussion about all this. I'd like it very much if WarMech could give us a quick update on his state of motivation and/or new-found conclusions, too (hoping that starting an alternate discussion won't kill what's left of said motivation).

OK, I'll stop here, but I'm waiting for responses.

Terribleno

2011-06-19 01:40:34 pm

Quote:

More than anything, I'm very annoyed by the idea that old NES cartridges are subject to running out of battery power.

My FF1 cart's battery has been dead since I've owned it (bought it used from a rental store in '94). A segmented run on the NES version is out for me unless I keep my NES on for the during of the run... So that leaves me restricted to SS runs on the NES version, SS runs on Origins and PSP, or segmented runs on Origins and PSP.

What irks me is the batteries are 2032 standard lithiums, and if I knew how to solder I'd replace it myself. Sad

On that note, I will improve my Origins run in the future, but the segments of hell (ice cave, ToFR, Mirage Tower/Floating Castle, earth cave) are going to put a huge damper on it.

Winkwonle

Edit history:

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 04:15:51 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 02:03:46 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 02:00:05 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 01:55:19 pm

2011-06-19 01:49:08 pm

Terribleno, are you the new incarnation of Lenophis? Or is there an Origins run out there that I wasn't aware of?

By the way, I'd be curious to hear what kind of timing you get for the various dungeons.

Here's my rough estimates/objectives, to give you an idea:

06:00 Marsh Cave
14:00 Earth Cave 1-2
06:30 Ice Cave
04:30 Ordeals
03:30 Gurgu
02:00 Waterfall
08:00 Sea Shrine
06:00 Mirage Tower + Sky Castle
25:00 Temple of Fiends, revisited (this one is very uncertain)

I think I was rather pessimistic on the estimates, but I don't know how frustrating they'll get, so I'd rather be.

Terribleno

2011-06-19 02:10:14 pm

It's a joke name that romscout helped devise, since he declared me terrible at gaming (terrible + lenophis = terribleno) ~~in front of an international audience~~ despite dropping the bomb during MMX at AGDQ and felt the need to retort being called out on it. Tongue

Quote:

By the way, I'd be curious to hear what kind of timing you get for the various dungeons.

No thanks to how broken the encounter method in Origins is (plus the run button), timing will be skewed.

For your earth cave times, are you combining both trips into the 14 minutes or are they 14 minutes each?

Waterfall might be about 10-20 seconds faster, if you got the right battles on the way there and you got a nice trap battle at the robot, then warped out.

Also, even if it's just for Tiamat, consider getting the Bane Sword to one-shot the bastard. It will always be faster than fighting him straight up, even if it takes 2 or 3 attempts. The only question is would the time spent to pick it up make up the time during that fight. It should, but it would obviously need testing.

25 minutes for ToFR seems way generous, but there could be something I'm discounting.

I'll post more when I get done with work.

It's a joke name that romscout helped devise, since he declared me terrible at gaming (terrible + lenophis = terribleno) [s]in front of an international audience[/s] despite dropping the bomb during MMX at AGDQ and felt the need to retort being called out on it. :P

[quote]By the way, I'd be curious to hear what kind of timing you get for the various dungeons.[/quote]
No thanks to how broken the encounter method in Origins is (plus the run button), timing will be skewed.

For your earth cave times, are you combining both trips into the 14 minutes or are they 14 minutes each?

Waterfall might be about 10-20 seconds faster, if you got the right battles on the way there and you got a nice trap battle at the robot, then warped out.

Also, even if it's just for Tiamat, consider getting the Bane Sword to one-shot the bastard. It will always be faster than fighting him straight up, even if it takes 2 or 3 attempts. The only question is would the time spent to pick it up make up the time during that fight. It should, but it would obviously need testing.

25 minutes for ToFR seems way generous, but there could be something I'm discounting.

I'll post more when I get done with work.

Winkwonle

Edit history:

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 06:17:21 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 04:34:03 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 04:19:56 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 04:19:01 pm

Winkwonle: 2011-06-19 03:27:05 pm

2011-06-19 02:29:40 pm

14:00 is for both trips combined.

In the Waterfall, I need to get the Defense sword and the Ribbon there, so I can't avoid the trap battle. Of course, WARP is used there (I do class change almost only to get WARP for the Waterfall). I'm not sure I fully understand your comment.
EDIT: alright, it turns out I can do the Waterfall in 2:00. I had just had "Monster Strike First"s and I didn't remember to redo the segment.

I use BANE on Tiamat and kill her on either turn 1 or 2. Meanwhile, the Knight makes himself busy attempting to run. I also pick up absolutely no chest from the whole Mirage Tower + Sky Castle. Not even ADAMANT. I'm not sure yet if this is a good idea or not.
EDIT: in light of some more experimental data, I just fixed the time for Mirage Tower to 06:00 instead of 10:00, seeing as I had counted way too much time for Tiamat + the bridge.

Quote:

25 minutes for ToFR seems way generous, but there could be something I'm discounting.

Is 25 minutes for ToFR too few, or too much? This also takes into account the time used to buy HEAL potions used for it. It's the only dungeon for which I haven't prepared my route yet, so I don't have an actual experimental time for it. My reasoning for now is that it's so much of a long segment that I'll probably have to aim at times similar to the one I had in my single-segment run. I seem to remember planning for 25 minutes or so at the time. You know, worst-case scenario, I could always grab the Bane Sword and force a win against Chaos through BANE. With two natural charges and unlimited item uses, I could give 10 shots per attempt, and recommence the process 20 times or so for reasonable odds. 1-(1-1/201)^200 = 63%.

I'll be waiting for the rest of your data and comments.

14:00 is for both trips combined.

In the Waterfall, I need to get the Defense sword and the Ribbon there, so I can't avoid the trap battle. Of course, WARP is used there (I do class change almost only to get WARP for the Waterfall). I'm not sure I fully understand your comment.
EDIT: alright, it turns out I can do the Waterfall in 2:00. I had just had "Monster Strike First"s and I didn't remember to redo the segment.

I use BANE on Tiamat and kill her on either turn 1 or 2. Meanwhile, the Knight makes himself busy attempting to run. I also pick up absolutely no chest from the whole Mirage Tower + Sky Castle. Not even ADAMANT. I'm not sure yet if this is a good idea or not.
EDIT: in light of some more experimental data, I just fixed the time for Mirage Tower to 06:00 instead of 10:00, seeing as I had counted way too much time for Tiamat + the bridge.

[quote]25 minutes for ToFR seems way generous, but there could be something I'm discounting.[/quote]

Is 25 minutes for ToFR too few, or too much? This also takes into account the time used to buy HEAL potions used for it. It's the only dungeon for which I haven't prepared my route yet, so I don't have an actual experimental time for it. My reasoning for now is that it's so much of a long segment that I'll probably have to aim at times similar to the one I had in my single-segment run. I seem to remember planning for 25 minutes or so at the time. You know, worst-case scenario, I could always grab the Bane Sword and force a win against Chaos through BANE. With two natural charges and unlimited item uses, I could give 10 shots per attempt, and recommence the process 20 times or so for reasonable odds. 1-(1-1/201)^200 = 63%.

I'll be waiting for the rest of your data and comments.

Winkwonle

2011-06-19 09:51:47 pm

A first draft of the route I'm using can be found here
http://batiazul3627.webs.com/ff1-mechanics/planner-0.1.html

Terribleno

2011-06-19 10:51:51 pm

Quote:

14:00 is for both trips combined.

Ok, what the hell. I barely get 14:30 (total movie time) for my two segments, and I have a run button! Tongue

I also had some of the best luck possible in that cave, and still ended up with 3 or 4 ambushes. Sad

Quote:

Is 25 minutes for ToFR too few, or too much?

I'm going to say too few, but not by much. I rewatched the end of your currently-posted run, and you spent about 28 minutes in there (I may have included the ending in that time). With some considerably good luck, you can get 25 minutes. With normal FF1 luck, I wouldn't count on it. Tongue

Quote:

Not even ADAMANT. I'm not sure yet if this is a good idea or not.

The best weapons you'll have are Defense/Defender, Ice Brand/Ice Sword, and Flametongue/Flame Sword if you pick that up. Since all you care about is number of hits, and since the Excalibur gives the same bonus as the defender, you could skip it.

Quote:

Of course, WARP is used there (I do class change almost only to get WARP for the Waterfall). I'm not sure I fully understand your comment.

Nope, looks like you got it right (go to robot, get cube+defender+ribbon, warp out).

Quote:

04:30 Ordeals

This looks about right. It all depends on the Nightmares and the Zombie Dragons.

Quote:

06:00 Marsh Cave

Maybe a bit faster if the Wizards cooperate.

Quote:

06:00 Mirage Tower + Sky Castle

o_O Damn. I suppose if you aren't going to pick anything up, it will be that fast. Tongue

Quote:

03:30 Gurgu

Maybe even less than that if Kary cooperates. If you're lucky, 4 or 5 battles max in there.

Quote:

08:00 Sea Shrine

8 minutes to get the slab, and kill Kraken? That may be a smidge optimistic, unless I'm missing something. Also, since you're skipping the Dragon armor, are you picking up the Opal instead?

Quote:

With two natural charges and unlimited item uses, I could give 10 shots per attempt, and recommence the process 20 times or so for reasonable odds. 1-(1-1/201)^200 = 63%.

20 tries to hit the perfect frame? I dunno... :s

[quote]14:00 is for both trips combined.[/quote]
Ok, what the hell. I [b]barely[/b] get 14:30 (total movie time) for my two segments, and I have a run button! :P I also had some of the best luck possible in that cave, and still ended up with 3 or 4 ambushes.  :(

[quote]Is 25 minutes for ToFR too few, or too much?[/quote]
I'm going to say too few, but not by much. I rewatched the end of your currently-posted run, and you spent about 28 minutes in there (I may have included the ending in that time). With some considerably good luck, you can get 25 minutes. With normal FF1 luck, I wouldn't count on it. :P

[quote]Not even ADAMANT. I'm not sure yet if this is a good idea or not.[/quote]
The best weapons you'll have are Defense/Defender, Ice Brand/Ice Sword, and Flametongue/Flame Sword if you pick that up. Since all you care about is number of hits, and since the Excalibur gives the same bonus as the defender, you could skip it.

[quote]Of course, WARP is used there (I do class change almost only to get WARP for the Waterfall). I'm not sure I fully understand your comment.[/quote]
Nope, looks like you got it right (go to robot, get cube+defender+ribbon, warp out).

[quote]04:30 Ordeals[/quote]
This looks about right. It all depends on the Nightmares and the Zombie Dragons.

[quote]06:00 Marsh Cave[/quote]
Maybe a bit faster if the Wizards cooperate.

[quote]06:00 Mirage Tower + Sky Castle[/quote]
o_O Damn. I suppose if you aren't going to pick anything up, it will be that fast. :P

[quote]03:30 Gurgu[/quote]
Maybe even less than that if Kary cooperates. If you're lucky, 4 or 5 battles max in there.

[quote]08:00 Sea Shrine[/quote]
8 minutes to get the slab, and kill Kraken? That may be a smidge optimistic, unless I'm missing something. Also, since you're skipping the Dragon armor, are you picking up the Opal instead?

[quote]With two natural charges and unlimited item uses, I could give 10 shots per attempt, and recommence the process 20 times or so for reasonable odds. 1-(1-1/201)^200 = 63%.[/quote]
20 tries to hit the perfect frame? I dunno... :s

Winkwonle

2011-06-19 11:56:50 pm

Cool, it's nice to have confirmation that the numbers are in the right range.

Quote:

Ok, what the hell. I barely get 14:30 (total movie time) for my two segments, and I have a run button! Tongue

For the Earth Cave, knowing the battles in advance makes all the difference in the world I believe. I didn't count the time spent outside the cave to get the ROD, but it shouldn't be much (0 battles, ~1 step per second, plus the screen loads). Because of all the reloads to get the right amount of steps between Tents, measuring time outside dungeons is kind of messy. Also, in my case I killed Lich in 1 round, so there's that.

Quote:

since the Excalibur gives the same bonus as the defender, you could skip it.

Defense/Defender versus Excalibur, there still is a difference as far as my experience tells. It's a solid 15 points of damage rating, which over 3-4 hits (plus crits) could increase the average by 100 points of damage realistically. The thing is, though, that Excalibur would only be used for 1) the Phantom, 2) Lich2, 3) Kary2, and 4) Kraken2. None of these bosses really do long-term damage like Tiamat2 and Chaos do, so there's much less of a need to beat them quickly.

Quote:

06:00 Marsh Cave

Maybe a bit faster if the Wizards cooperate.

Really? I thought I was relatively optimistic on that one. It's one of the dungeons that gives me the most trouble, as I don't have money to buy more than 1, maybe 2 PURE potions before going in. And if I force monsters that don't poison, I get monsters that paralyze instead, or monsters that always ambush.

Quote:

o_O Damn.

Yeah. Before I converted my segment to an actual video and took the care to patch the parts together, I thought I was in for 10 minutes for the fiend of Air, but it seems that it is indeed just 6. It's the first time in my life I'll be doing a non-equipment-restricted challenge and picking up absolutely no item in the Mirage Tower / Sky Castle. Not even the third Ribbon, mind you.

Quote:

8 minutes to get the slab, and kill Kraken?

Yes, this is also after converting to video and patching the parts together. I don't know if I can manage to do such a good time all in one go, but I figure if I do it like 25 times or so, I should be alright. Note that getting the SLAB takes, like, 1 minute total. It's two battles, three at most, and I warp directly from the SLAB room to save another half-minute. By the way I don't pick up the Opal Armor either; I do the ToFR with the Opal Bracelet on my front guy and the (found) Gold Bracelet on my second guy (3rd and 4th being non-existent).

One thing that would help my time a lot for the Sea Shrine would be if I could use BANE for Kraken. Unfortunately, skipping floor B2 consumes a L5 charge so I'd be stuck redoing the dungeon again and again until I get both a perfect run of the dungeon and a one-shot kill of Kraken. Until I can bring myself to believe in that strategy, or to use two Black Mages, I'll say 8 minutes.

Quote:

20 tries to hit the perfect frame? I dunno... :s

The plan for the ToFR is to get Masmune, and not to BANE Chaos to death. I'm just saying if my objective of 25 minutes turns out to be a big deal under my actual time, this option might always remain as a last resort. FF1 has only 1 slot for a saved game, so it's only that final segment that I'd be able to re-optimize as much as I want.

Cool, it's nice to have confirmation that the numbers are in the right range.

[quote]Ok, what the hell. I barely get 14:30 (total movie time) for my two segments, and I have a run button! Tongue[/quote]
For the Earth Cave, knowing the battles in advance makes all the difference in the world I believe. I didn't count the time spent outside the cave to get the ROD, but it shouldn't be much (0 battles, ~1 step per second, plus the screen loads). Because of all the reloads to get the right amount of steps between Tents, measuring time outside dungeons is kind of messy. Also, in my case I killed Lich in 1 round, so there's that.

[quote]since the Excalibur gives the same bonus as the defender, you could skip it.[/quote]
Defense/Defender versus Excalibur, there still is a difference as far as my experience tells. It's a solid 15 points of damage rating, which over 3-4 hits (plus crits) could increase the average by 100 points of damage realistically. The thing is, though, that Excalibur would only be used for 1) the Phantom, 2) Lich2, 3) Kary2, and 4) Kraken2. None of these bosses really do long-term damage like Tiamat2 and Chaos do, so there's much less of a need to beat them quickly.

[quote][quote]06:00 Marsh Cave[/quote]
Maybe a bit faster if the Wizards cooperate.[/quote]

Really? I thought I was relatively optimistic on that one. It's one of the dungeons that gives me the most trouble, as I don't have money to buy more than 1, maybe 2 PURE potions before going in. And if I force monsters that don't poison, I get monsters that paralyze instead, or monsters that always ambush.

[quote]o_O Damn.[/quote]

Yeah. Before I converted my segment to an actual video and took the care to patch the parts together, I thought I was in for 10 minutes for the fiend of Air, but it seems that it is indeed just 6. It's the first time in my life I'll be doing a non-equipment-restricted challenge and picking up absolutely no item in the Mirage Tower / Sky Castle. Not even the third Ribbon, mind you.

[quote]8 minutes to get the slab, and kill Kraken?[/quote]
Yes, this is also after converting to video and patching the parts together. I don't know if I can manage to do such a good time all in one go, but I figure if I do it like 25 times or so, I should be alright. Note that getting the SLAB takes, like, 1 minute total. It's two battles, three at most, and I warp directly from the SLAB room to save another half-minute. By the way I don't pick up the Opal Armor either; I do the ToFR with the Opal Bracelet on my front guy and the (found) Gold Bracelet on my second guy (3rd and 4th being non-existent).

One thing that would help my time a lot for the Sea Shrine would be if I could use BANE for Kraken. Unfortunately, skipping floor B2 consumes a L5 charge so I'd be stuck redoing the dungeon again and again until I get both a perfect run of the dungeon [i]and[/i] a one-shot kill of Kraken. Until I can bring myself to believe in that strategy, or to use two Black Mages, I'll say 8 minutes.

[quote]20 tries to hit the perfect frame? I dunno... :s[/quote]
The plan for the ToFR [i]is[/i] to get Masmune, and not to BANE Chaos to death. I'm just saying if my objective of 25 minutes turns out to be a big deal under my actual time, this option might always remain as a last resort. FF1 has only 1 slot for a saved game, so it's only that final segment that I'd be able to re-optimize as much as I want.

Terribleno

2011-06-20 12:45:43 am

Quote:

I do the ToFR with the Opal Bracelet on my front guy and the (found) Gold Bracelet on my second guy (3rd and 4th being non-existent).

It is only 8 points difference (a lot less than I was expecting), so that's a viable alternative. I could even consider that as a route change on my improvement (skipping the Dragon Armor and Thor's Hammer, since I didn't even use the hammer...) But I still need to consider a party for the new run, as well.

Quote:

Really? I thought I was relatively optimistic on that one.

With some luck, it's possible. You just need the Crawls to not be themselves, as well as the Ghouls to be kind.

Quote:

Until I can bring myself to believe in that strategy, or to use two Black Mages, I'll say 8 minutes.

If it makes you feel any better, Kraken doesn't resist that element. >_> It's possible! Like how staying sane with attempts is possible...

Quote:

so it's only that final segment that I'd be able to re-optimize as much as I want.

Attempting that segment after every failed attempt (setting up the battle table, Lich, Kraken's idiotic randomness, Tiamat's floor) ~~sounds like~~ is a royal pain in the ass.

[quote]I do the ToFR with the Opal Bracelet on my front guy and the (found) Gold Bracelet on my second guy (3rd and 4th being non-existent).[/quote]
It is only 8 points difference (a lot less than I was expecting), so that's a viable alternative. I could even consider that as a route change on my improvement (skipping the Dragon Armor and Thor's Hammer, since I didn't even use the hammer...) But I still need to consider a party for the new run, as well.

[quote]Really? I thought I was relatively optimistic on that one.[/quote]
With some luck, it's possible. You just need the Crawls to not be themselves, as well as the Ghouls to be kind.

[quote]Until I can bring myself to believe in that strategy, or to use two Black Mages, I'll say 8 minutes.[/quote]
If it makes you feel any better, Kraken doesn't resist that element. >_> It's [i]possible![/i] Like how staying sane with attempts is possible...

[quote]so it's only that final segment that I'd be able to re-optimize as much as I want.[/quote]
Attempting that segment after every failed attempt (setting up the battle table, Lich, Kraken's idiotic randomness, Tiamat's floor) [s]sounds like[/s] is a royal pain in the ass.

Winkwonle

Edit history:

Winkwonle: 2011-06-20 12:32:28 pm

2011-06-20 12:24:04 pm

Quote:

Kraken doesn't resist that element >_>

I'm aware of that, but I'm currently using both my L5 charges for WARP. Unless I have extra charges available or I'm willing to lose 30 seconds on the SLAB floor, using BANE against Kraken is not even an option. I've been thinking about this all morning and I'm still trying to work something out, either to fit a second Black Mage in the party or to level-up the one I have in the range of Level 16.

The thing is that Level 16 would also enable me access to QAKE, which can then be used to one-shot Lich2 (at 24% probability). This potentially means doing the first part of the ToFR with all my characters, and using them against the Phantom as well. A whole world of possibilities.

By the way, I figured/remembered a better strategy for Kary (and possibly Kary2) that would cut almost a minute from my Gurgu time. As it happens, HOLD has a 35% rate of success, and according to AstralEsper's FF Formulas (GameFAQs) enemies only have a ~10% chance (per turn) to recover from it. This means I wouldn't have to heal up before the fight. I'd just sit there at 1 hp, and gang-bang her. Also paralyzed enemies can't dodge hits and take 25% more damage. Yeah.

Quote:

I still need to consider a party for the new run, as well.

What did you have in mind? Any use of Thieves by the way? I'm always trying to stuff one in there, but to no avail. I think the best party for a segmented run strictly must contain a Fighter and a Black Mage, but starting from there, there still are a number of tempting options (none of which include Black Belts of course). I've seriously considered all of FTRB, FFRB, FFBB, FFWB, FRWB, FRBB, and FBWW. I haven't really yet looked at FFFB, FRRB, FTBB, FBBB, but they're there too.

[quote]Kraken doesn't resist that element >_>[/quote]
I'm aware of that, but I'm currently using both my L5 charges for WARP. Unless I have extra charges available or I'm willing to lose 30 seconds on the SLAB floor, using BANE against Kraken is not even an option. I've been thinking about this all morning and I'm still trying to work something out, either to fit a second Black Mage in the party or to level-up the one I have in the range of Level 16.

The thing is that Level 16 would also enable me access to QAKE, which can then be used to one-shot Lich2 (at 24% probability). This potentially means doing the first part of the ToFR with all my characters, and using them against the Phantom as well. A whole world of possibilities.

By the way, I figured/remembered a better strategy for Kary (and possibly Kary2) that would cut almost a minute from my Gurgu time. As it happens, HOLD has a 35% rate of success, and according to AstralEsper's FF Formulas (GameFAQs) enemies only have a ~10% chance (per turn) to recover from it. This means I wouldn't have to heal up before the fight. I'd just sit there at 1 hp, and gang-bang her. Also paralyzed enemies can't dodge hits and take 25% more damage. Yeah.

[quote]I still need to consider a party for the new run, as well.[/quote]
What did you have in mind? Any use of Thieves by the way? I'm always trying to stuff one in there, but to no avail. I think the best party for a segmented run strictly must contain a Fighter and a Black Mage, but starting from there, there still are a number of tempting options (none of which include Black Belts of course). I've seriously considered all of FTRB, FFRB, FFBB, FFWB, FRWB, FRBB, and FBWW. I haven't really yet looked at FFFB, FRRB, FTBB, FBBB, but they're there too.