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Fighting Force (jp/na/pal) (n64/pc/psx) [Any %] [Single Segment] [Easy] [Character: Mace]

Decision: Accept

Congratulations to 'Soulless'!
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Run Information

Fighting Force () (pc) [Any %] [Single Segment] [Easy]

Verification Files

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.
I really have no soul.
Well, I was going to post 2 other videos to test the waters, but then, miraculously, my PC gave me a shot and I got a footage without frame drops/other problems. So this one's fine.

And I don't think I can remove this specific description. I tried and didn't see the option to do so. Wrote a post in the private forum, but can't seem to change stuff in the run info.
That's why you don't see the issue. There's none.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-09-12 10:04:25 am
Okay, feel free to correct stuff that you can't fix in the verification post itself. It's perfectly okay to post here as soon as it's up.

EDIT: I forgot I now have rights to edit things like that myself, so I just deleted the extra internal comment.

Most beat 'em ups have separate categories for different characters. Do you see any special reason why that isn't required for this one?

You often keep shooting at people who've been knocked down by the first bullet. Is it never better to take sure shots on everyone still standing so you can preserve ammo for a little bit longer?

I see you might have avoided spamming the powerful low round kick because it consumes energy. You ended the run on 3 lives though (going into boss fight) and the boss fight looks pretty easy to survive, so unless I'm mistaken, it seems too conservative to not have used more earlier. E.g. on the guys lying down on the elevator floor instead of those weak kicks.

10:30 - there's this kind of little warp here. Is that possible in a lot of places?
14:40 - I feel you could have been a bit faster if you had maybe just drunk one of the sodas, went to the car, fought the guys, then used the waiting time after this to get the other two sodas.

I'll wait for your replies.
I really have no soul.
That's a welcome advice to the future, I'll be sure to do that.

Thanks for this one.

As a matter of fact, I DID write "Mace" when I submitted the run, but for some unknown reason, they just deleted it. I am not really sure why, as all of the 4 characters are different and require different strats. So this is not a mistake on my end if I recall correctly. There should be a separate category for each of the characters. I hope this will get fixed. I have it correctly on .

In this version, you can shoot them while they are on the ground infinitely, as long as you hit in the way the are lying in, they do take the damage. This only doesn't (sort of) work in the japanese PSX version, where they can only take 2 to 3 hits like that and then you have to wait for them to get up. Not here though. Plus, on easy, kicks do as much, if not more damage than pistols, so no big deal. Or perhaps, if I missed some of the shots, it just happens to be so. The controls of this game are terrible for normal standards, so misses are expected, though not crucial. The game does have auto-aim, sort of. But it doesn't work at times, e. g. when there are two guys in front of you.

I didn't see the reason to die, it wasn't necessary. It is in something like Alana on Normal (japanese - PSX), but not here. Or at least in my opinion. Perhaps me not using it is just a griff from the american PSX version, the one I play/ed the most. Minor issue I would say. But good that you pointed it out, perhaps I should be more agressive with the combos next time.

10:30 It's not me doing it, it's the game. It only happens after the first boss - Driver.

14:40 This doesn't matter, since this level has cycles. That's why I drink the soda, it's purely for entertainment and doesn't affect the run, because you still have to wait for the train to arrive.
The category will be fixed on our end as well.

Okay, I guess the only snag is conservative health usage (think of it as a form of damage boosting to use most of your available health for more damage output).

I really have no soul.
Fine by me.
Edit history:
ktwo: 2016-09-17 02:45:03 pm
I haven't done a lot of homework on this game, so I just read the run comments, watched the run and then tried to understand the game mechanics on the fly.

At first, I had some questions regarding the strats, but eventually most of it made sense. Like in most beat-em ups, you can't completely avoid enemies blocking, attacking at inopportune moments etc. Not entirely unexpected for a game from the early 3d-era, there also seems to be some pretty serious issues with the controls, hitboxes and camera work. Anyways, the execution seems to me like it's fairly good, but also improvable (mostly) for the mentioned reasons. The main questions/concerns I had about the strats have been addressed and those comments have therefore been hidden away below. From what i can see, the general strategy appears to reflect today's knowledge of the game.

The main issue I have is the question about deaths... The special (the low round-kick) seems considerably more powerful than other attacks in the game, but it looks to me like it's not being used to the full extent in order to conserve health. This would have been ok if the run was deathless (at least on SDA, that's considered a category of its own), but it's not. There is a death near the end, which makes some of the detours for health and the sometimes conservative use of the special look like unjustified time losses.

Another issue I have is the use of guns. Considering how good some of the enemies are at blocking regular punches and kicks, I'd say it would have been more beneficial to conserve ammo by shooting once, then finish the job by a kick (everyone should know that kicking unconcious people on the ground is very effective since they can't defend themselves :-) ). That way the ammo would have lasted for more enemies, which in the long run would reduce the amount of blocking.

Overall, I'm kind of on the fence with this one. Unoptimized strats (or routes) tend to stick out a bit for me. Still, it's not a bad effort. If there were any competition for this game, I don't think it would take too long for the time to be pushed down a notch or two, but for now


I really have no soul.
I have something to say, because I don't like the hostility of this site.

As both of you suggested, I tried to do a run where I ended with 1 (which means 0 in this game by the way) life, and it did not make a difference at all. The run I posted here was around 15 seconds faster if I recall correctly. When you try to force the combo move, it's not as great as you think it is. Seriously. When you use your normal kicks and hit both of them, it does the same amount of damage as the combo move, except it's slightly faster. That would explain the times.

It would not have been beneficial to shoot once and then kick them on the ground, for the following reason:
You shoot them once, they are knocked backwards a bit, so you'd have to run to them, kick them 1 or 2 times (sometimes even more), and that doesn't seem like saving time in my honest opinion (the move is SLOW) (having played a lot of of this game). The best would be to use one shot, the go to them, then use the combo while they are on the ground, except that drops your weapon, so you'd have to pick it up again. Even then, using the combo/normal kicks by itself is better, so consuming ammo is not the ultra gamebreaking strat. When you have a weapon, you try to hit at long range/when they are close to you so you can guarantee hits even when they are lying.

If you are talking about unoptimized strats that stick out for you, how about this. On, there's a full leaderboard with all my runs (PSX - NTSC, NTSC-J included), and I would suggest that you check PSX - Alana on Easy difficulty. One guy tried to compete against me, his first time was around 50+ minutes, his second one (his PB) was 43 something. My run is 34:26. So for anyone who is saying unoptimized strats, go and try by yourself and you will see the difference between my (optimized) strats and your own run. It's going to be GIGANTIC. The levels are basically the same in PC/PSX-NTSC version, so just go and see.

Not going to lie, it fascinates me, how can anyone come to my runs of games with no knowledge about any of the game's speedrunning/regular strategies, and say my strats are unoptimized, just like that. Where is any logic behind this. Is this regular behavior of people on this site?

I am literally the first guy who started to speed run this game, I registered it at (the PSX version that is) with no problem, I have the PC run there no problem, yet here, someone always has something. Why reject THE FIRST EVER run of a game, just because it can be sped up by 10 seconds. Imagine that happening on Go to a leaderboard, and delete every single run besides the first 1? 3? 5? Because they are not perfect. Is that the fascist policy of this site?

Final words, if you want to prove that my strats are unoptimized, go ahead, invest the time, run this game, optimize them and show me that I am wrong. Unless you can brush up the knowledge about this game, and all you remember is that you played this as a child, and finished it in 3 hours, and I did it in 30 something minutes, accept the run and move on.

Or should I go to a run of a game I know nothing about, verify it, and write "reject" for no apparent reason just because? I'll say "your strats are unoptimized, reject", not having played the game myself at all? If all the people on this site are as user-hostile as you, then I don't even want to be featured on this site. Period. Done. Have a good one....
First of all, I understand your reaction. One of the purposes of this section is to question things and to offer criticism. However, it should be constructive feedback with the intent to improve the speedrun and not be offensive to its nature. It can sometimes be a fine line between the two, especially since the message can be interpreted differently depending on the reader. I appreciate that you react when you think that line has been crossed.

Like I wrote in my reply, I don't know this game (but I'm not new to watching speedruns of similar games) and can therefore only comment on what is presented here and what little I could find elsewhere. I did do a basic search after having watched the run, but the only speedrun related information seems to be your runs. I've read the run comments, but they don't go into much detail like explaining the attack moves and the considerations behind (not that they have to, but as a viewer, I would definitely have been interested in that for an "obscure" game like this). While I understand you're pretty annoyed with me right now, I have to thank you for still providing an informative reply on the points I commented on (which is also the idea with keeping this discussion in an open forum). It's good to hear that you have tried these things out already. I have edited my reply to reflect that new information for me.
Edit history:
Soulless: 2016-09-18 04:58:35 am
I really have no soul.
Thanks, understanding is a good start. You are right about this, 2 things matter. How you write something, and how the reader takes it. I appreciate you not banning me from this forum after this kind of reply. And bothering to reply. And I am not being sarcastic or anything, some people would just call it quits. I'm glad we can continue.

You can't find any other information about the runs, because I am in fact a pioneer, the first man to try and speedrun this. There may have been attempts in the past, but not recorded/mentioned anywhere on the internet. The only other 2 attempts were done by my brother and one guy from France, I can provide links below.
- my brother's run, just a slow one without much of anything - "that guy's" run (WITH COMMENTARY by the way)

You see, I would really like to provide a run with voice commentary, but I am glad I can even record the gameplay and post it. I don't have a solid microphone (I really don't want to post low quality content)/enough time to create a guide, where I would explain everything, the only option for me would be to make a video and add text comments throughout the whole video, and that is a lot of work for me as of today, considering we've got some family problems to take care of and this is my last year of school.

The other problem is my english, because even if the microphone quality was OK (not great, but acceptable), my writing english is fine (for a non-native speaker, who has only learned thanks to Youtube and Twitch), but my talking skills are not exactly phenomenal. By that I mean horrible. I get nervous and can't make a sentence. Something around those lines.... And I don't think people would be interested in that/I am not interested in embarrassing myself. I might do a part by part reconstruction, maybe, see if that'll work out, but I can't promise anything.

Not that annoyed, I might have overreacted a bit (A LOT), thanks to my stressful life and other things such as bad mood. It's not your fault (entirely). I thank you, again, for taking the time and reasonably replying/editing the comment.
I really have no soul.
Oh and hey, just for keks, I tried to do a run right now, with some rocking music playing, I got a 32:10 (real time) as opposed to my submitted 33:39 (real time), which means 1:30 less. With x2 left (which means 1 extra life). And guess what, you can do nothing about it. Neither can I.

Because this is my old computer and the game runs better and is more responsive. And I can't record it on this one obviously.

So it is possible to speed up the run by 1:30 just by....playing it on a normal hardware, not a modern one, but even if I wanted to record it, I can't. And on the other computer, I tried to do the run I mentioned and I was 15 seconds slower, so.... it's rather unfortunate. And that was a special one, after so many tries, I made a decent one (not in terms of speed, but "watchability" and not puking as a result), because like I said, on Windows 8, here is what you have to deal with: 5 FPS in outside areas, 20 FPS in normal areas, black flickering particles, the game refusing to even run. There is always something, pick your poison. Like seriously, running the game with 2 patches through a program, having set up the game to run at fullscreen, while having the program set to run a game in a window, then record it and pray.

I am going to try though, don't get me wrong. If it's possible to speed up the run by this much, count me in. But if you can't record it, what's the point. Still, the PSX version remains my speedrunning cup of coffee, since with that one, you can bloody record it without any problems thanks to emulators, and I got it down to 30:27. And frankly, I don't think that will ever be possible with the PC port.
I think the main part where I was dubious the low combo kick really wasn't a time-saving option was when I saw the guys you slowly poked to death (AIR 4 kicks on some?) on the elevator. In case there was some kind of cycle thing there (can't be can it?), that's the part that made me feel that couldn't have been the best.

Also about shooting: the main thing I was thinking of in case I brought that up was shooting once, then switching targets while they were on the ground, and finally comboing more of them away at once when they've gotten up and are coming back to you themselves. If there's a problem with that idea, like it's too clumsy to turn around and aim, just bring it up.

Anyway I think you were more addressing ktwo than me so.

Recording - we judge the run by its gameplay more so than actual time if it's a hardware etc. issue, so that 1:30 isn't really you correcting 1:30 worth of mistakes and doesn't matter in that sense. Also

Just a few points:
- if you want there to be a voice commentary, it's no problem if it's someone else recording it [together with you] in case that ever helps
- written commentaries are definitely great if you have the time to include some generic notes on strats/attacks/whatever: this also automatically makes the verifiers feel like enough testing was done, and they might well not even feel it necessary to write at length themselves
I really have no soul.
Would you mind saying which elevator and on what enemies? Because there are two elevator levels, one is called Elevator and the one at the end of the game is called Lift. So if you would be specific so I don't have to waste time, it would be great.

Shooting once and switching targets is nonsensical, since like I said, the game has autoaim, and I have proven to myself, that trying to break that autoaim and hitting another target is possible, but works in 20 % of the cases and most of the time you's really better to just unleash the bullets on them while they are lying, because they can't move/the autoaim is there.

Yes I was in fact addressing him this time, because he said something like "slight Accept" or something around those lines, which wasn't certainly to my liking.

Sure....I guess. That's reasonable.

You see, that is an issue. Since nobody around me (close enough, physically) has even the slightest idea/knowledge of what I would do/say OR proper english skills, that means I would have to write basically everything on a paper, then send it to someone (god knows who), who could record it and speaks english fluently. And that's not happening ever. I should/could write a script for myself and just read it out loud and record that, then edit it, see if that works, but as of today, I've lost my voice, so again, god knows when that's going to happen.

The notes would be so generic it would not have contained any useful speedrunning information. Then it's a tough one between doing a run with commentary/doing a tutorial with pauses and talking, that kind of thing.

The verifiers would be interested, if there were that I mean, this game came out in 1997 and the first submitted speedrun anywhere was by me..... in well....2016. So the people (or the majority of them) who might have been interested in verifying/speedrunning this could be dead.

I'll see what I can do. When I finish my current project, that being a comparison between Fighting Force and Metal Fist on the PSX, I could maybe write the script at my english lessons if my teacher lets me do it, and then when I get my voice back, I can try and record it/add it in a text form to a video somehow...... it's hard to be a pioneer sometimes.

But I want to get it done, to incentivise (idk whether or not that's how you write it) people into playing/speedrunning this.
30:38 - you kick a guy 3 times with the low-damage low kick
31:00 - here's someone you kick 4 times but you may have been expecting the others to come closer to you while doing that
31:11 - 4 kicks
31:52 - 4 kicks

(and the other lift scene has nothing like this)

I feel you'd have saved the most time if you can manage to time the extra death[s] whenever you've just knocked the last enemy out or otherwise would not lose time to it, which I can imagine may pose some difficulty. Maybe if you used the self-damaging attack on the last enemy of the wave if you know it's going to kill you?

Shooting: okay, we're on the same page now.
Notes for verifiers: It's specifically because we DON'T know your game that the notes are useful.
Voice commentary: if you want, I could ask a few people in specific if they've played this game: there's a bunch of runners who often do brawlers and they always tend to do voice commentary for them. Just another idea. One of them might know the game, at least some version of it, even if they never ran it.

Incentivize/incentivise is correct in spelling.
I really have no soul.
So those are the ones you are talking about..... Since this is the last level before the final boss, you want to keep as much health as possible, and I was calculating ahead. If I used the special in all of those situations, I would have to waste some life and get myself killed once more to get the optimal boss fight. So I instead chose this, it looks slower by 8 seconds maybe, but I get a great final boss with as much combo potential as I could ever possibly imagine.

And with the second one, just like you stated, you can clearly see what I'm going for. Usually, when they are lying like this, the other one guy changes his position and after he's done doing that, he walks straight to you. Didn't happen this time, unfortunately.

I don't think I would have, since forcing the special usually hits one enemy, and that is basically the same as reagular kicks, plus you have to wait a second or two when you die. So not exactly my favorite.

That's not how the game works, you can get yourself at minimum HP - that being the enemy touches you with whatever attack and you are dead, but you can't suicide using the special. If you use it on the last guy of the wave, the first guy of the next one still has to hit you. If you use it on the last guy of the level, you get some life back as always. So it that's what you were looking forward to, nah.

No, you are on the right page (mine) now.

I am currently writing that script for the video at school, while the others prepare for the final exams and such, and I think I will firstly try to do it by myself, when I get my voice back. If I can't do it, then I could pass it to you. We'll see.
Gotcha! All's clear then.
Decision posted.