FFXII - New Run Complete!

2013-05-30 11:46:29 pm

To get triple MP, you need an ability that costs 3 mist charges. The third Quickening is the most common choice, but the espers Famfrit, Chaos, Ultima, and Zodiark also work. Giving Fran Mateus and two Quickenings will only result in her having two abilities costing 1 mist charge (Mateus, Feral Strike) and one costing 2 mist charges (Whip Kick).

I tested this just now to be sure. Basch with Belias, Mateus, and a Quickening only has one mist charge, and adding Hashmal and a second Quickening to this gives him a total of two mist charges.

Freddeh

2013-05-31 12:00:13 am

Ok that makes sense, I had forgotten how it worked. Almost made it through the game at least, I'll probably try a full run on either Sunday or Tuesday afternoon, or at least see how far I get.

AlecK47

2013-05-31 11:55:54 pm

OK, the cheapest quickenings for Fran to get are the ones below Axes/Hammers 3 and Maces 3 (both cost 60 LP, plus the quickening), followed by the one right of Accessories 9. I initially had two of those assigned to Ashe before I gave her Famfrit, and only left Fran's the same because of movement time on the LB. Giving her the three cheapest saves 135 LP, which would help a great deal in getting channelings. In fact, by my calculations she should be able to afford all three channelings after Hydro. I'll double check this tomorrow, and if it works out I'll modify the SS route accordingly.

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-06-01 12:20:26 am

2013-06-01 12:19:52 am

I was less than 110 off of getting the first two in my learning run, and that run was the run that I had Vaan die to the judges on the Leviathan, so all my characters were anywhere from 20-40 behind (even after a few extra jellies) anyway, so I'd imagine she'd be able to get pretty close to the third channeling as well yeah.

EDIT: Just picking up the two channelings+Warmage should be enough I'd imagine though, I was only 3-4 brainpans short with none of it.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2013-06-01 11:27:49 am

2013-06-01 11:26:53 am

Warmage should make no difference because Death doesn't actually deal damage - it just happens to be the cheapest way to get the second Channeling.

Numbers time: Fran should get 792 LP baseline after Hydro, or 831 after Pandaemonium, and she needs 600 to get Confuse, Death and the cheapest available quickenings. This leaves her 9 LP short of the second channeling baseline, and because she's not in the party much the only LP she's likely to lose is in the Judges fight on Leviathan, so that should be pretty consistent. That said, she can get Headsman easily (costs 185 LP if you go straight down from AM2), and Headsman should work too. I'd say it's worth testing.

Freddeh

2013-06-01 11:50:31 am

Bah, I got Warmage confused with Headsman. Yeah, I'll have to be sure to save next time I get a run to go that far to test which one works better. It's cheaper to go through gambit 1 though for Headsman (155 LP instead of 185), but unfortunately she's just short of being able to afford the first channeling as well (14 short baseline).

AlecK47

2013-06-01 11:56:22 am

Honestly it seems to me that Headsman is the way to go - either way you're just short of a Channeling that you may need, but I think you're less likely to need it with Headsman than with one Channeling. That said, chances are you'll be above baseline anyway from Jellies alone.

Freddeh

2013-06-01 11:57:55 am

Yeah, and I usually like to kill a few extra jellies just to make sure I get enough money to carry me through, this route pretty much needs 99 liquids both rounds to break even on money.

Nitrodon

2013-06-01 12:17:25 pm

Unfortunately, Headsman only works when you kill an enemy with damage, so it won't help Fran at all.

Freddeh

2013-06-01 12:19:18 pm

I seem to remember counting and it looked like you were getting mana back from the brainpans when you were running it at C4L. I'll have to doublecheck to make sure though (or more easily, test with Pen when shes killing the chickens for the orbs).

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2013-06-01 12:20:44 pm

2013-06-01 12:19:36 pm

I'll change the route accordingly once it's tested.

Nitrodon

Edit history:

Nitrodon: 2013-06-01 12:23:13 pm

2013-06-01 12:22:11 pm

Fran didn't have Headsman (or even Warmage) at C4L. The only MP she got back was from walking and the occasional item drop at higher chain levels.

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-06-01 12:29:47 pm

Freddeh: 2013-06-01 12:27:08 pm

2013-06-01 12:24:54 pm

Hm, it looks like 21 was how much yours costed, so thats all 3 channelings. Guess I'll have to make do with 1 maybe 2.

Edit: And confirmed, Death does not give mana back with Headsman, so Channelings it is.

Edit2: And judging by how many I was off, and that you get roughly 2-2.5 more casts per channelings, 1 should cut it really close, and 2 should easily give you enough mana, depending on the breaks for having to use elixirs (which messes up the math a bit).

Nitrodon

2013-06-01 12:30:17 pm

I had plenty of LP, so there was no reason not to get all three channelings and both nearby swiftnesses at C4L.

In the worst case, you have a fourth elixir or megalixir that you can use. Having a megalixir for Cid 2 is nice, but not necessary.

AlecK47

2013-06-01 12:31:17 pm

Like Nitro said. Also, I'll address this issue in the Segmented route later today. SS route is good.

Freddeh

2013-06-01 12:34:36 pm

That's assuming I don't need to use it for Sochen Cave Palace :x. Its pretty hard to kill that Crystalbug (read, impossible) when only pen can afford Bio, though that may have also been due to being behind in LP at that point in time, as Ashe was about 20 LP short of being able to get MA6 and BM4 after Mandys for me. This led to me needing to use an elixir on her more often than not.

Freddeh

2013-06-03 01:35:37 pm

Vayne Novus wasn't that bad really, he feels even more procedural than Cid2, and it only took me two attempts, with the first one being unlucky that he cast piercing aga right at the start of phase 3, though now that I think about it, thats why you delay bringing the party back out after Balth dies, yeah? (I forgot about it that attempt).

Probably the order of the 3 hardest fights while learning the game went Cid2, Mandys+Ahriman (they deserve to be combined since you have to do one right after each other with a limited mana supply), and then Cid1, but there was a bit of a gap between the first two and Cid1, at least in terms of time spent.

In any case, Yay my notes are done, the game is beaten with speedrun strats, and I can start practicing the hard fights and see where I'm at. I'm a tad busy this week, but will hopefully find time to get a fully timed run going either Thursday or Friday (or both).

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-06-08 03:52:19 am

2013-06-07 02:46:41 pm

Starting my first full run attempt shortly: www.twitch.tv/Freddeh

Ended up with 9:26:12, not bad considering I didn't expect to actually finish a run today XD.

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-06-26 03:00:17 am

2013-06-26 02:48:36 am

So, I'm out of town and a bit bored atm, so I've been doing some theorycrafting.

I came across an interesting idea for making both Cid1 AND Mandys a ton easier: the Traveler Technik. From between 990 and 999 steps since you last used Traveler (or at X990-X999 from the beginning) you will deal that number times 10 in unreduced, aoe damage. I'm not certain on Mandy hp, but I believe it is below 10000, and Cid's rooks have just barely under 9990 hp. The License is right below Poach, so an easy grab for Balthier, and it is sold for 6700 in Nalbina and Rab.

The idea is to use it at a point where you're around 900-950 steps away from Mandys and Cid1, then the mandys fight would go as such: Bring out Basch to tank, but set up the step counter then don't move and let them group, then come to you. Once they've targeted, bring out Balthier and cast Traveler, hopefully catching the rest of them. If any survive just bring out Ashe and Pen to finish as usual.

For the Cid fight, set up step counter, run in, bring Balthier out, then (while basch is still party leader) have Balthier cast Traveler on Cid, theoretically killing all the rooks instantly, then continue the 2nd phase as normal. A second note I found out about that particular Cid fight is that apparantly you can completely avoid his Tomahawk attack by standing behind him. This also requires testing (as in I forget if he targets or just attacks straight ahead from his stopping spot).

I'm more excited about its possible uses for the Cid fight than the Mandys fight, as I can see many issues with the Mandys fight being very unreliable. The cid fight, however, could save a TON of time over the current method, and additionally make it both cheaper (less Hi-pots) and very reliable to pull off.

This would also free up the need to buy Sorc hats, as these also happen to be the only two fights that are difficult on mana. Not buying Sorc hats would also cover the cost of the Traveler Technic. The only question here is whether the 2 magic lost from using wizard hats instead of enchanters hats doesn't put you too short on magick to make it through the game. I don't see why it would, but I don't know the magick damage calculations very well.

I'm going to test this strat either tomorrow night or Thursday, but is there a large issue I'm missing?

EDIT: Just thought of a possible issue: Does all damage stop going out when the first rook dies for the cutscene? If so that would put a large hamper on this plan, and means i would have to kill one the usual way first and then do this, which would make it a bit more problematic and time consuming.

So, I'm out of town and a bit bored atm, so I've been doing some theorycrafting.

I came across an interesting idea for making both Cid1 AND Mandys a ton easier: the Traveler Technik. From between 990 and 999 steps since you last used Traveler (or at X990-X999 from the beginning) you will deal that number times 10 in unreduced, aoe damage. I'm not certain on Mandy hp, but I believe it is below 10000, and Cid's rooks have just barely under 9990 hp. The License is right below Poach, so an easy grab for Balthier, and it is sold for 6700 in Nalbina and Rab.

The idea is to use it at a point where you're around 900-950 steps away from Mandys and Cid1, then the mandys fight would go as such: Bring out Basch to tank, but set up the step counter then don't move and let them group, then come to you. Once they've targeted, bring out Balthier and cast Traveler, hopefully catching the rest of them. If any survive just bring out Ashe and Pen to finish as usual.

For the Cid fight, set up step counter, run in, bring Balthier out, then (while basch is still party leader) have Balthier cast Traveler on Cid, theoretically killing all the rooks instantly, then continue the 2nd phase as normal. A second note I found out about that particular Cid fight is that apparantly you can completely avoid his Tomahawk attack by standing behind him. This also requires testing (as in I forget if he targets or just attacks straight ahead from his stopping spot).

I'm more excited about its possible uses for the Cid fight than the Mandys fight, as I can see many issues with the Mandys fight being very unreliable. The cid fight, however, could save a TON of time over the current method, and additionally make it both cheaper (less Hi-pots) and very reliable to pull off.

This would also free up the need to buy Sorc hats, as these also happen to be the only two fights that are difficult on mana. Not buying Sorc hats would also cover the cost of the Traveler Technic. The only question here is whether the 2 magic lost from using wizard hats instead of enchanters hats doesn't put you too short on magick to make it through the game. I don't see why it would, but I don't know the magick damage calculations very well.

I'm going to test this strat either tomorrow night or Thursday, but is there a large issue I'm missing?

EDIT: Just thought of a possible issue: Does all damage stop going out when the first rook dies for the cutscene? If so that would put a large hamper on this plan, and means i would have to kill one the usual way first and then do this, which would make it a bit more problematic and time consuming.

AlecK47

2013-06-26 10:24:31 pm

You can only kill one rook the first time AFAIK. That could be tested with an overleveled party and quickies or something, but I'm not confident about it. I'm pretty sure that because the game generally tallies damage one target at a time for most AoE stuff the damage for the other rooks just wouldn't happen. As for manipulating the step counter, that is probably going to be much harder than it sounds.

As for going behind cid to avoid tokamak, the reason I didn't do it was because I wanted to at least try to go for the pre-tokamak kill. In fact I probably had it at C4L, but I wussed out.

As for the sorcerer's hats, they probably help most against shemhazai (more likely to finish off before immobilize wears out) and hashmal (more likely to kill before quakeja).

Freddeh

2013-06-26 10:49:25 pm

Hm, the strat works for Mandys (beautifully, I might add) if you time it right, but Cid1 has an issue: For some reason the rooks take only 2/3's of the damage from Traveler, thus not gibbing them. In ADDITION to that, once the cutscene happens they all full heal, so finishing them off with aoe Bio's doesn't work either. And you're right, the damage stops once the first one dies.

Short version, this strat doesn't work for Cid1, sadly. I also don't think its worth going out of the way to hopefully get lucky, and also skip hats/be maybe short on money just for a faster mandys fight. I would try it in a segmented run if you had the money to spare though, since you can maniuplate step counters better.

I really did enjoy one-shotting those bugger Mandys though ;).

AlecK47

2013-06-26 10:54:17 pm

I can imagine the catharsis, believe me. And I really should get around to timing how much berserk saves against Tiamat, now that I think of it...

Freddeh

2013-06-26 11:31:55 pm

I did that a while ago, its about a minute saved on the fight depending on recast luck, with almost no time lost setting up (I precast Berserk when entering the Henne mines).

AlecK47

2013-06-26 11:46:46 pm

Cool, added it into the route. I still feel kinda silly that I didn't think of that before.

Freddeh

2013-06-27 03:12:12 am

When someone brought it up on the stream I sat there thinking 'Well there must be 'some' reason!' Then I asked Nitrodon and the reason turned out to be 'because no one thought about it' XD.