FFXII - New Run Complete!

2013-05-23 01:12:40 pm

As long as you get the equipment switched before the hit happens you're good, because it cancels the animation.

Battery Mimic is ultimately up to you. The main thing with chain level in Skeleton grinding is that because of how chaining and item drops work you can get multiple items without raising your chain level, but those items are less likely to be rarer drops. Because the goal is to get a bunch of Bone Fragments (the common drop), it's more important to have a good number on the chain than a higher level.

The Garuda thing was probably just bad luck. I've had it happen myself once or twice. Ultimately, though, you can get Phoenix Downs right there to revive her, and the 11LP from Garuda is not essential for Penelo's LB route (she has a minimum 21 excess baseline everywhere else), especially because it's kinda hard not to get at least 15LP from Mandys.

As for money, I can't remember the math off the top of my head, but you can sell a lot of your crappy equipment and get a couple grand off that (you can sell everything of Fran's and Balthier's, although as mentioned later in the route I recommend saving one crap armor and the Mythril Sword for equipment swapping). Money has only been an issue for me at that point once, and I was only about 2k short.

As long as you get the equipment switched before the hit happens you're good, because it cancels the animation.

Battery Mimic is ultimately up to you.  The main thing with chain level in Skeleton grinding is that because of how chaining and item drops work you can get multiple items without raising your chain level, but those items are less likely to be rarer drops.  Because the goal is to get a bunch of Bone Fragments (the common drop), it's more important to have a good number on the chain than a higher level.

The Garuda thing was probably just bad luck.  I've had it happen myself once or twice.  Ultimately, though, you can get Phoenix Downs right there to revive her, and the 11LP from Garuda is not essential for Penelo's LB route (she has a minimum 21 excess baseline everywhere else), especially because it's kinda hard not to get at least 15LP from Mandys.

As for money, I can't remember the math off the top of my head, but you can sell a lot of your crappy equipment and get a couple grand off that (you can sell everything of Fran's and Balthier's, although as mentioned later in the route I recommend saving one crap armor and the Mythril Sword for equipment swapping).  Money has only been an issue for me at that point once, and I was only about 2k short.

Freddeh

2013-05-23 06:25:02 pm

Figured out my other issue with Belias: I was forgetting to weapon swap, which had him casting Firaja before Barrier, which usually ended in most of my party dying before he did. I got through it with only Ashe dying finally after doing this.

After Tiamat you can sell all three of the Cypruss Poles yeah?

AlecK47

2013-05-24 01:07:08 am

Yes, Cypress Poles only have a benefit in their evasion stat afterwards, and that really only matters until you get the Sword of Kings. In other words, it makes no difference. The only thing that would change would be if you had enough money from Dustia to buy the Main Gauche (which is worth it if you have the gil).

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-05-24 01:36:10 am

2013-05-24 01:35:50 am

What do you use the Main Gauche for before Jelly farming? Is it useful for Henne? Or is there just no place to buy it past then?

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2013-05-24 11:28:27 am

AlecK47: 2013-05-24 11:21:21 am

2013-05-24 11:19:12 am

Jahara is the last place you can buy a Main Gauche, and it isn't worth making a return trip to get it. That said, the extra evasion is nice for Jellies (although if Basch gets confused, you should temporarily remove it so that he's more likely to take physical damage and not deal it to someone else in the party) and even nicer against Mandys, but unfortunately it doesn't help against Cid.

Affording the LP for it is also an issue, but Basch having to postpone HP isn't the end of the world. Basically Basch would skip +150 HP until before or after Hydro, and Vaan doesn't benefit until the Bahamut, by which time he has enough to afford it quite easily.

Edit: Oh yeah, and Basch would need some LP from Jellies before he could afford it anyway because I'd prioritize WM3 over Daggers 3.

Edit 2: Also, if you get the Main Gauche, make sure not to sell the Escutcheon, because that and the MG get you to 40% evasion. If you need to sell the Escutheon to afford the MG, then it isn't worth it.

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-05-24 11:35:31 am

2013-05-24 11:33:47 am

Ok, so if I buy the smelling salts in Jahara I just need to save basically 1500 for Cura (I can sell the poles for Fira), so if I have at least 5k left I should be able to cover it.

Edit: Oh, do I need to keep 3 flame staves for later on or do you just use the 2 for jelly chaining? I've been keeping three, which probably doesn't help my money issues.

Nitrodon

2013-05-24 11:42:52 am

You only need 2 Flame Staves in the entire route. Vaan never gets the license for Flame Staff or Fira.

Freddeh

2013-05-26 12:00:16 am

Highlight of my practice run today: http://www.twitch.tv/freddeh/c/2333613

I was able to recover from not having enough LP to start jellies due to dying at the Judges before Ashe (that really messes you up btw), but while testing using Basch for Bergen he cast Watera and wiped me. Is that random, because I used Basch, or because I messed up?

AlecK47

2013-05-26 11:53:58 am

Against the Judges you should have Fran using Dark. You'll deal more damage faster than just attacking, and the fight should turn out better (also why I have Basch using Dark Motes - Basch is also my lead at this point).

Against Bergan, you want to actually run just past him. The water attack was from one of the other soldiers, who should only get one round of attacks max. I've only had them use basic attacks, myself. Using Vaan or Basch shouldn't matter as to whether or not they use it. But I was always holding flee at the start of the fight, which also probably won't affect things, but I'm not positive.

Freddeh

2013-05-26 12:08:16 pm

Fran was using Dark. I think I just got unlucky that one of the judges used Tri-Attack THREE times almost in a row, but even then, Vaan fell in the first one, and I couldn't get that judge to attack Basch to save my life.

Ah, I just need to practice Bergen then, didn't quite go far enough, fast enough.

AlecK47

2013-05-26 01:43:06 pm

Ah, she ran out of MP, that's why - where I clicked at first took me to the end of the fight. As for the Tri-Attacks, that's just really shitty luck. Also, Tri-Attack has a small chance of instant KO, as you saw there.

Freddeh

2013-05-26 03:29:13 pm

Found a possible issue with the License route: You never get BM3 with Vaan, but you still show him getting BM4 before Cid despite not using him for Cid. Do I just pick it up afterwards through BM3 when i have the LP, or pick up BM5 instead?

AlecK47

2013-05-26 03:37:38 pm

That was probably a mixup when I changed something - maybe a cut/paste thing. Fixed it. He should get it after Cid 2 to get to Shemhazai.

Freddeh

2013-05-27 11:54:35 am

Do you know offhand how much more magic power/magick lores you'd need to 2-shot non-shell'ed Mandys? I'm thinking of spending an extra 6-7 minutes for a partial third jelly run, just to smooth things out for the rest of the run (and its still far quicker than Ba'gamnon). Mandy's and Ahriman are giving me a lot of trouble, and while its doable with enough practice, I'm not sure if its consistently doable with the licenses the run currently gets by then. ~120 more LP will let me get MA6 on Ashe before Mandys, and should give me enough money for Thunder Staves to let Mateus only take one round (as well as spellbound for Ashe so I don't have to recast Reflect before Bergen). If it also lets me 2-shot Mandys then thats even more time saved, and will make Mandy's MUCH more consistent.

AlecK47

2013-05-27 12:44:00 pm

To put this simply, Mandys and Ahriman are two of the hardest fights in the game, so don't be discouraged if you die a couple times. In fact, most of the extra Phoenix Downs are for Mandys. An extra round of Jellies would take far more time than I'm comfortable putting in a route that is supposed to be somewhat optimized, but if you want to test it, go ahead. Penelo would need 94 LP to get to another ML, and Ashe would need 96. That said, in my opinion the main issue with the magic stats in the run is being able to ORKO the Rooks in the Cid fight with any reliability, which is actually why I added the Sorcerer's Habits to the route. In theory you could get Sorcerer's Hats as well, or even Gaia Hairpins (would require an additional 35 LP). Personally, I'd only do that if you want to get used to the tech in the fights (like practicing on easy mode). Sochen Cave Palace will probably always kill good runs no matter the strats.

But one thing to try in the Mandys fight would be to approach them when they group up with only the tank out, and bring out the casters as soon as the tank is targeted. I haven't tested it but at the very least you should be able to deal heavy damage to most of them.

Also, one round Mateus just isn't worth it imo. The extra round of casting is about what you'd lose from switching Ashe and Penelo's equipment.

To put this simply, Mandys and Ahriman are two of the hardest fights in the game, so don't be discouraged if you die a couple times.  In fact, most of the extra Phoenix Downs are for Mandys.  An extra round of Jellies would take far more time than I'm comfortable putting in a route that is supposed to be somewhat optimized, but if you want to test it, go ahead.  Penelo would need 94 LP to get to another ML, and Ashe would need 96.  That said, in my opinion the main issue with the magic stats in the run is being able to ORKO the Rooks in the Cid fight with any reliability, which is actually why I added the Sorcerer's Habits to the route.  In theory you could get Sorcerer's Hats as well, or even Gaia Hairpins (would require an additional 35 LP).  Personally, I'd only do that if you want to get used to the tech in the fights (like practicing on easy mode).  Sochen Cave Palace will probably always kill good runs no matter the strats.

But one thing to try in the Mandys fight would be to approach them when they group up with only the tank out, and bring out the casters as soon as the tank is targeted.  I haven't tested it but at the very least you should be able to deal heavy damage to most of them.

Also, one round Mateus just isn't worth it imo.  The extra round of casting is about what you'd lose from switching Ashe and Penelo's equipment.

Freddeh

2013-05-27 12:52:03 pm

I wish it was only a couple times that I've died on them lol. I did a full round of jellies in just over 11 minutes. An extra half-round (only need 50 if you don't lose LP in places) would only add ~7 minutes to the route overall, and would probably speed things up for at least Mandys and probably Ahriman. This might also help ORKO'ing the Rooks as well (Sorc hats are in your route currently, though they cause money issues which this would also help solve).

The problem with that approach on the Mandy fight is that I often either get Basch InstaKO'ed (without the +150HP) or the special attack kills the casters when i come out, and if i wait for the special attack they're too far away to cast on. Mandys suck is what I learned yesterday.

Fair enough on the Mateus fight though.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2013-05-27 12:56:52 pm

2013-05-27 12:55:59 pm

Meant "Habits," doh! And they only add +1. The other mystic armors available don't add more than Sorcerer's Habits either.

Edit: and yes, Mandys do suck, as my CFL debacle can attest.

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-05-27 01:02:22 pm

Freddeh: 2013-05-27 01:00:08 pm

2013-05-27 12:58:06 pm

Oh I'm supposed to buy Habits instead of Hats in Bur-Omisace?! That might help a bit ^^

Edit: Testing now with Hats+Habits, and the extra ML's on Ashe and Pen.

Edit2: Also, this route change will let me pick up BM3 with Vaan to one-round the stillshrine sub-boss (forget the name). It was taking me two rounds just barely currently, Vaan casting just fire would bring it to a sliver of hp.

AlecK47

Edit history:

AlecK47: 2013-05-27 01:06:20 pm

2013-05-27 01:03:52 pm

Actually, Hats are the original (they add +2 over previous hedgear), I just made a mistake in my suggestion to get the Habits as well.

Vaan can get away with using Aero against Vinuskar instead of Fira, according to Nitrodon's experience.

Edit: Also wondering more about whether Main Gauche is really worth it for a non-marathon run. If the 150 HP makes that big a difference, it may be best to just skip it. And although more Jellies would make certain fights safer, the main problem with this game in a marathon is still that there is too much grinding (and running), and too little action.

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-05-27 01:13:54 pm

2013-05-27 01:05:24 pm

I think I tried that the first time I fought him, and had a similar result. I haven't tested it much (I've had very little issue with Stillshrine other than running past the 3 dragons in the very beginning) though, so I may have forgotten to equip the cherry staff or missed something else, so will have to try aero instead.

Edit: Yeah, this isn't an especially marathon-friendly game...

Nitrodon

2013-05-27 04:00:34 pm

You can't kill the Mandys in one Fira cast each from Ashe and Penelo at level 27, even with max damage variance and the best mystic armor in the entire game (let alone what's available before Sochen). Minimum damage with what you have will kill any of them in two casts each (and the one weak to fire in one cast each, of course), so that's what you have to go with.

I generally have my casters on the field, wait for the Mandys to group up, then send my tank through and past the group so (hopefully) my casters will be out of range of Scream and Pollen.

Freddeh

Edit history:

Freddeh: 2013-05-28 01:27:07 pm

Freddeh: 2013-05-28 01:49:59 am

2013-05-27 10:09:42 pm

Yeah, thats what I found out as well. Scratching that idea then, and just making sure I don't lose out on too much LP to give Basch the HP should make Mandy's go smoothly enough. I don't think I failed to kill Mandy's once with the improved stats from the extra round of jellies, but it didn't make it go barely any faster, so back to the original plan. Just need to practice them, and especially Ahriman, more.

I'll have to practice that strat for Scream and Pollen, as well as I just realized that you can recast Decoy over an old Decoy, which should help a ton on ahriman (for some reason I was under the impression that you had to wait for it to fall off, which messed up timing badly).

EDIT: Thank goodness, I finally got past Ahriman. Now I can start practicing Cid! (Though I need to practice Mandy+Ahriman some more just to make sure I have Ahriman down, that confuse is killer)

EDIT: Cid wasn't all tooooo bad, Mana is awfully tight with this progression though...workable but tight. Now tyrant of all things is giving me trouble, I've only gotten one actual run in (first 2 attempts I didn't realize that I needed to wait for shell to fall, then once i got that, I didn't kill it fast enough and Vaan ran out of mana.

Yeah, thats what I found out as well. Scratching that idea then, and just making sure I don't lose out on too much LP to give Basch the HP should make Mandy's go smoothly enough. I don't think I failed to kill Mandy's once with the improved stats from the extra round of jellies, but it didn't make it go barely any faster, so back to the original plan. Just need to practice them, and especially Ahriman, more.

I'll have to practice that strat for Scream and Pollen, as well as I just realized that you can recast Decoy over an old Decoy, which should help a ton on ahriman (for some reason I was under the impression that you had to wait for it to fall off, which messed up timing badly).

EDIT: Thank goodness, I finally got past Ahriman. Now I can start practicing Cid! (Though I need to practice Mandy+Ahriman some more just to make sure I have Ahriman down, that confuse is killer)

EDIT: Cid wasn't all tooooo bad, Mana is awfully tight with this progression though...workable but tight. Now tyrant of all things is giving me trouble, I've only gotten one actual run in (first 2 attempts I didn't realize that I needed to wait for shell to fall, then once i got that, I didn't kill it fast enough and Vaan ran out of mana.

Freddeh

2013-05-30 11:09:48 pm

Found another route issue: Fran needs channeling for Pharos, otherwise I'm having major MP problems. Right now it doesn't appear that anyone is getting Mateus, so would picking that up instead of the Quick under Greatswords be fine?

Nitrodon

2013-05-30 11:32:36 pm

Giving Fran Mateus will not help at all. However, you can give her the Quickenings under Maces 3 and right of Accessories 9 instead of the more expensive ones she currently gets. I think these two were claimed by Ashe in a previous version of the route, but this is no longer the case.

Freddeh

2013-05-30 11:35:34 pm

Oh, I thought Summons increased your Mana bar as well, I'll try that instead then.