FFXII - New Run Complete!

2012-06-16 08:15:29 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Oh awesome. Thanks Salem. Did you find anything interesting in the translations?

We basically skipped all the notes on who was in the party and what licenses were bought except when I thought they varied from the current plan. So there was a lot left out of that.

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-18 09:09:21 am

2012-06-18 09:08:21 am

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Good news! I recorded a couple more segments. I'm now at the save point right before Mimic Queen and my save time is: 57:46. The best splits I have for Kuro have him defeating the Mimic Queen at 1:01:56. So that means if I can set up my gambits and beat the Mimic Queen in less than 4 minutes I'll be ahead of him.

I'm not sure how fair of a comparison that is because his splits are real time and mine are in the game timer (which doesn't run during loading screens). I do lose 20 seconds per save though so maybe that balances it out. This is the first time I've ever been ahead of Kuro on a significant split. Also previously I had been comparing to slower splits of his. So using faster splits and still being ahead is a good sign.

Youkai

2012-06-19 10:50:23 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Did my second Dustia segment today. The RNG was really Trolltastic. This clip will give you an idea of how the day went: http://www.twitch.tv/youkaidragoon/b/322044529

Tranquilite

2012-06-20 03:52:51 am

Gotta love the multi-hit self kill. The higher the combo the better.

Youkai

2012-06-20 08:46:24 am

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Quote from Tranquilite:

Gotta love the multi-hit self kill. The higher the combo the better.

The best part is that it was right after a blocked attack. The blocked attack pretty much ended the segment right then but he had to add insult to injury by killing himself off lol. Also you can tell from my comment that I had been getting a lot of HP bonuses from the pickups which costs a lot of time.

Salem

2012-06-21 08:24:20 am

I was watching your broadcast last night and thought I would try to clear up the Fran at pharaohs thing. He is using Fran to exploit the status chance <0% glitch (where if you use a status effect on a non-shelled target and it has <0% chance to hit as calculated in the game it will land guaranteed. With instant KO effects being considered status effects it's probably the fastest way to get through the brainpans.) so he needs a char at low magic power, an unequipped low level Fran for instance, to pull that off. The reason he's reflecting it off of vaan is two fold, first it increases the Fran's casting range by daisy-chaining the distance keeping Fran out of range of most incoming attacks and to ignore the reflect status that some of the brainpans have. It's still a long ways off but I hope this helps.

Congrats and thank you for figuring out the Ba' Gamnon farming thing. I was having a very hard time trying to use it in my tests.

Youkai

2012-06-21 08:51:25 am

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Interesting. I didn't know about that <0% chance glitch. That definitely explains it. I'm going to be playing ahead through the end of the game once I get done with jelly farming so I'll do some testing to see if I want to go that route. I still wonder if it wouldn't be just as fast to have one of my casters reflect a strong spell off the party. Either way it's good to know what he was doing with that video; thanks.

Also I can't believe you stuck around for that Ba'Gamnon farming stream lol. I was very frustrated with it for a long time before I finally figured it out. Glad that it helps though. Did you hear the full explanation on how it works?

Salem

2012-06-21 09:28:33 am

I'm not sure if I missed the full explanation or not. I heard the part about the three possible spawns and that was what I was having so much trouble with. I could tell from the nico video that he was responding to something involving the spawns but for the life of I me I couldn't figure out what. So that observation was a big help. But I did have to go before you finished streaming so I don't know if I missed something important. Did you manage to get a good segment of that last night?

Youkai

2012-06-21 10:22:51 am

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Yeah the three possibly spawns is the key. Originally I thought there were only two: instant, and slow (the one that works). But it turns out there are three: instant, fast, slow. If you get the instant or fast you need to zone immediately.

I got one completed one last night that I wouldn't be terribly sad about keeping but I really want to beat it with a faster time if possible. The problem is that even knowing the trick it's still very inconsistent because you basically have to luck manipulate the NPC to not do Jump too many times. I find it hard to believe that this is a SS strategy unless he knows of some way to manipulate that that I'm unaware of.

Salem

2012-06-21 11:24:24 am

I think that might have something to do with his game being on wait. I'm almost certain being on wait prevents the second potion enemy from using that action and the main guy from using their potions on someone other than themselves. Also a difference I noticed was that on active battle mode since simultaneous actions are allowed, they get twice the hits in. In Ky's video the lizards never get more than one round of actions before they're dead (barring the initial lowering of them where he was getting 2 volleys of dark off instead of one). Only the spear minion does jump so I think that trying it on wait mode would be well worth your time.

A little thing and I don't know if it matters but the spear minion is always the last one to get hit with dark regardless of positioning.

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-21 11:29:43 am

2012-06-21 11:29:09 am

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Wait hold on are you saying even if I don't ever pull up the menu to actually activate waiting if wait mode is enabled only one action can happen at a time? That would definitely result in less damage to Vaan. I didn't realize that. I just though it "Paused" the action while you had the menu open. If that is the case I'll definitely test it tonight.

EDIT: and keep that in mind as a possible manipulation technique for future boss battles.

Salem

Edit history:

Salem: 2012-06-21 12:08:05 pm

2012-06-21 12:00:22 pm

Yes, in wait mode all actions are executed sequentially by activation and only one action can be performed on screen at any one time. So if an action was activated while another was charging it has to wait until the charging one is performed. It's kind of a real time turn based play style. Actions can be charged simultaneously but then they will resolve in order. If you watch Ky's video again you'll see that there are never red numbers until the spell has finished casting. I hope this helps. Smiley

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-21 12:49:34 pm

Youkai: 2012-06-21 12:33:28 pm

2012-06-21 12:07:48 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

OH MY GOSH. How the hell did I not know that :/ I'm an idiot. That will make the segment so much easier. Definitely going to have to test that.

EDIT: Just did a test. Wait mode didn't have as much of an effect as I thought it would but I think it did help. I still ended up dying but I got to chain 39. Gonna have to watch KY's video again see if I can glean anything new now that I've played the segment some more.

EDIT 2: Watching the video again I see that in at least one case he has Vaan cure himself to help out. I might consider that when Vaan gets critical.

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-22 02:45:09 pm

Youkai: 2012-06-22 11:20:46 am

2012-06-22 11:19:41 am

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Yes Yes Yes!

Last night I got an attempt on segment 10 that was a 100 chain with a save time of 1:52:01. Got that pretty early and couldn't complete the damn segment again so I resolved myself to keeping a segment that was OK but I wasn't very happy with. I moved on last night and got the next segment done (collecting Ashe) and did some testing with Ashe, Penelo, and Vaan's license spending.

Today I watched my previous segment 10 and decided to give it a couple more goes. I figured out a better way to get all three kills without leaving early or late and must have done a little better in the other aspects overall. Anyway I upped the chain to 110 because last night Vaan was very close to getting a HP+150 gambit. I managed to complete the segment twice and the better of the two had a save time of 1:50:05! So I got 50 more license points and saved 2 minutes. I'm much happier with this segment.

Also I decided that wait mode wasn't worth it. The no concurrent action attribute of wait mode doesn't seem to do much so I kept it on active because I didn't want the game to pause while I was manually executing cures.

EDIT: Also it seems you can 1-cycle Ghis if you position correctly so that all the reflections hit him. Just had that happen in a test segment.

Yes Yes Yes!

Last night I got an attempt on segment 10 that was a 100 chain with a save time of 1:52:01. Got that pretty early and couldn't complete the damn segment again so I resolved myself to keeping a segment that was OK but I wasn't very happy with. I moved on last night and got the next segment done (collecting Ashe) and did some testing with Ashe, Penelo, and Vaan's license spending.

Today I watched my previous segment 10 and decided to give it a couple more goes. I figured out a better way to get all three kills without leaving early or late and must have done a little better in the other aspects overall. Anyway I upped the chain to 110 because last night Vaan was very close to getting a HP+150 gambit. I managed to complete the segment twice and the better of the two had a save time of 1:50:05! So I got 50 more license points and saved 2 minutes. I'm much happier with this segment.

Also I decided that wait mode wasn't worth it. The no concurrent action attribute of wait mode doesn't seem to do much so I kept it on active because I didn't want the game to pause while I was manually executing cures.

EDIT: Also it seems you can 1-cycle Ghis if you position correctly so that all the reflections hit him. Just had that happen in a test segment.

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-24 12:25:18 pm

Youkai: 2012-06-23 07:45:04 pm

Youkai: 2012-06-23 07:44:24 pm

Youkai: 2012-06-23 04:36:47 pm

Youkai: 2012-06-23 04:34:31 pm

2012-06-23 04:28:10 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Hey Fenix. There is some license spending in KY's Pharos 1/2 at 10:00. When was the last license spending image you got? Also does KY do jelly chaining? I wonder if/how he skips it. I don't remember seeing a video of it.

I wonder if it's possible to skip at least one round of the jelly chaining if you extend out the Ba'Gamnon farming. I'd need to add up all the purchases through the end of the game to decide how much Jelly chaining I'll need.

EDIT: ROFL, I just watched the part in the Pharos where he does Fenrir. He abuses the <0% glitch to sleep him and then magicks him to death.

EDIT again: I got a couple attempts on the next segment in. This segment has a lot of license spending and the Ghis fight. I managed to get a 1 cycle Ghis which is fairly difficult. I'm not very happy with the segment though. My controller's sticky X button issue cost me a couple seconds in various minor screw-ups and Penelo had 95 MP (the range so far has been 86-102). I went to the game store and got a new controller so next time I work on it I'm going to see if I can get one with more than 95 MP and some better menuing.

EDIT another: Did a few more attempts. Got a 98 MP in the same amount of time. I think I'll go with that one.

Hey Fenix. There is some license spending in KY's Pharos 1/2 at 10:00. When was the last license spending image you got? Also does KY do jelly chaining? I wonder if/how he skips it. I don't remember seeing a video of it.

I wonder if it's possible to skip at least one round of the jelly chaining if you extend out the Ba'Gamnon farming. I'd need to add up all the purchases through the end of the game to decide how much Jelly chaining I'll need.

EDIT: ROFL, I just watched the part in the Pharos where he does Fenrir. He abuses the <0% glitch to sleep him and then magicks him to death.

EDIT again: I got a couple attempts on the next segment in. This segment has a lot of license spending and the Ghis fight. I managed to get a 1 cycle Ghis which is fairly difficult. I'm not very happy with the segment though. My controller's sticky X button issue cost me a couple seconds in various minor screw-ups and Penelo had 95 MP (the range so far has been 86-102). I went to the game store and got a new controller so next time I work on it I'm going to see if I can get one with more than 95 MP and some better menuing.

EDIT another: Did a few more attempts. Got a 98 MP in the same amount of time. I think I'll go with that one.

trowabartan

Edit history:

trowabartan: 2012-06-24 04:19:53 pm

2012-06-24 04:18:34 pm

Quote from Salem:

Yes, in wait mode all actions are executed sequentially by activation and only one action can be performed on screen at any one time. So if an action was activated while another was charging it has to wait until the charging one is performed. It's kind of a real time turn based play style. Actions can be charged simultaneously but then they will resolve in order. If you watch Ky's video again you'll see that there are never red numbers until the spell has finished casting. I hope this helps. Smiley

That doesn't sound right. In my experience different actions have different, let's call it, queue values. The higher their graphical intensity the higher the queue value. The basic fire spell is low enough that all 3 chars can cast it at the same time without delaying other actions. However only 2 Firaga can be cast at the same time with the 3rd and all other 'casted' actions being delayed until at least one finishes. Basic attacks are not delayed. An easy way to test is with a spell like Flare. It will always require an empty active spell queue in order to cast regardless of wait/active.

I haven't followed FFXII much at all since I did that yiazmat in 1 hour vid but from my understanding spell queue manipulation was a basic part of a lot of the challenges.

[quote="Salem"]Yes, in wait mode all actions are executed sequentially by activation and only one action can be performed on screen at any one time.  So if an action was activated while another was charging it has to wait until the charging one is performed.  It's kind of a real time turn based play style.  Actions can be charged simultaneously but then they will resolve in order.  If you watch Ky's video again you'll see that there are never red numbers until the spell has finished casting.  I hope this helps. :)[/quote]

That doesn't sound right.  In my experience different actions have different, let's call it, queue values.  The higher their graphical intensity  the higher the queue value.  The basic fire spell is low enough that all 3 chars can cast it at the same time without delaying other actions.  However only 2 Firaga can be cast at the same time with the 3rd and all other 'casted' actions being delayed until at least one finishes.  Basic attacks are not delayed.  An easy way to test is with a spell like Flare.  It will always require an empty active spell queue in order to cast regardless of wait/active.

I haven't followed FFXII much at all since I did that yiazmat in 1 hour vid but from my understanding spell queue manipulation was a basic part of a lot of the challenges.

fenixkane

2012-06-24 05:32:38 pm

Ky does do jelly chaining. He does 1 set of 100 as far as I can tell. Starts at 12:00: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm13609173
That license spending image was in Pharos, can't remember exactly where, but I did scan through the whole set of videos so it should be the latest in those vids.

Also, glad to hear Penelo now has plenty of MP.

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-24 06:21:03 pm

2012-06-24 06:19:54 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

1 set of 100 huh? How does he afford all the armor he needs then? I did the math on planned purchases and came up to needing almost 100K which is 2 stacks of Yellow Liquid. Guess I'll have to do the math again when I get there and see how much money I actually end up having.

Oh also that seems accurate throwabartan. Holy for instance can be used to delay Perfect Defense and the characters keep attacking while the magick casts but Perfect Defense can't get off till it's over.

Salem

Edit history:

Salem: 2012-06-24 09:12:15 pm

2012-06-24 08:21:36 pm

Quote from trowabartan:

Quote from Salem:

Yes, in wait mode all actions are executed sequentially by activation and only one action can be performed on screen at any one time. So if an action was activated while another was charging it has to wait until the charging one is performed. It's kind of a real time turn based play style. Actions can be charged simultaneously but then they will resolve in order. If you watch Ky's video again you'll see that there are never red numbers until the spell has finished casting. I hope this helps. Smiley

That doesn't sound right. In my experience different actions have different, let's call it, queue values. The higher their graphical intensity the higher the queue value. The basic fire spell is low enough that all 3 chars can cast it at the same time without delaying other actions. However only 2 Firaga can be cast at the same time with the 3rd and all other 'casted' actions being delayed until at least one finishes. Basic attacks are not delayed. An easy way to test is with a spell like Flare. It will always require an empty active spell queue in order to cast regardless of wait/active.

I haven't followed FFXII much at all since I did that yiazmat in 1 hour vid but from my understanding spell queue manipulation was a basic part of a lot of the challenges.

What you're describing is the animation delay which is also a real thing but separate from the wait command part I was talking about. One is an effect of the game setting the other is an effect of the built in graphical limitations and how they're sequenced. Dark normally doesn't cause an animation delay so I didn't mention it. There is a section on it in the Game Mechanics faq.

[quote="trowabartan"][quote="Salem"]Yes, in wait mode all actions are executed sequentially by activation and only one action can be performed on screen at any one time.  So if an action was activated while another was charging it has to wait until the charging one is performed.  It's kind of a real time turn based play style.  Actions can be charged simultaneously but then they will resolve in order.  If you watch Ky's video again you'll see that there are never red numbers until the spell has finished casting.  I hope this helps. :)[/quote]

That doesn't sound right.  In my experience different actions have different, let's call it, queue values.  The higher their graphical intensity  the higher the queue value.  The basic fire spell is low enough that all 3 chars can cast it at the same time without delaying other actions.  However only 2 Firaga can be cast at the same time with the 3rd and all other 'casted' actions being delayed until at least one finishes.  Basic attacks are not delayed.  An easy way to test is with a spell like Flare.  It will always require an empty active spell queue in order to cast regardless of wait/active.

I haven't followed FFXII much at all since I did that yiazmat in 1 hour vid but from my understanding spell queue manipulation was a basic part of a lot of the challenges.[/quote]

What you're describing is the animation delay which is also a real thing but separate from the wait command part I was talking about.  One is an effect of the game setting the other is an effect of the built in graphical limitations and how they're sequenced.  Dark normally doesn't cause an animation delay so I didn't mention it.  There is a section on it in the Game Mechanics faq.

Youkai

2012-06-25 01:20:28 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

0xwas, if you talk to KY sometime can you please tell him that his videos have helped a lot and thank you.

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-27 01:40:52 pm

2012-06-27 01:22:47 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

Made some good progress over the last couple days. Got through Tiamat. That segment puts me just over the 3 hour mark.

--I ended my second Dustia hunt a couple minutes ahead of Kuro's fastest known splits.
--I ended the Judge Ghis fight about 18 minutes behind Kuro. That is accounted for by farming Ba'Gamnon and it's associated license spending that Kuro didn't do.
--After Tiamat I'm 19 minutes behind. The minute lost can be accounted for by a the save penalty in this game and a little time spend farming Golden Amulets.

At this point I'm done going out of my way for things that Kuro didn't do so Hopefully I'll start gaining time on his splits again real soon. First though I need to play through the end of the game and see how much jelly farming I need to do. At this point I'm only going to farm as many jellies as I need to get enough money for what I need. Unfortunately it looks like that's more than one round. Hopefully not two full rounds though. If I can shave some of that off I can save time there.

Also I noticed in one of KY's videos that he re-casts Decoy before it wears off so apparently you can refresh it without having to wait for it to fade.

EDIT: Does anybody know what the heck all the weapon switching is for on the Cid fight at the end of this video? http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14613425

Made some good progress over the last couple days. Got through Tiamat. That segment puts me just over the 3 hour mark.

--I ended my second Dustia hunt a couple minutes ahead of Kuro's fastest known splits.
--I ended the Judge Ghis fight about 18 minutes behind Kuro. That is accounted for by farming Ba'Gamnon and it's associated license spending that Kuro didn't do.
--After Tiamat I'm 19 minutes behind. The minute lost can be accounted for by a the save penalty in this game and a little time spend farming Golden Amulets.

At this point I'm done going out of my way for things that Kuro didn't do so Hopefully I'll start gaining time on his splits again real soon. First though I need to play through the end of the game and see how much jelly farming I need to do. At this point I'm only going to farm as many jellies as I need to get enough money for what I need. Unfortunately it looks like that's more than one round. Hopefully not two full rounds though. If I can shave some of that off I can save time there.

Also I noticed in one of KY's videos that he re-casts Decoy before it wears off so apparently you can refresh it without having to wait for it to fade.

EDIT: Does anybody know what the heck all the weapon switching is for on the Cid fight at the end of this video? http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm14613425

Zali

2012-06-27 04:52:50 pm

He's using the Equipment Change Trick (ECT) for Cid, so he can cast more often then normal between Cid attacks. Normally, you have a slightly pause (stun) between one action and the next, after charge time and attack/magic animation are done. This Stun will disappear with ECT. It's a loss for real (and also play) time, though. But you can cast more often then normal between the enemys attacks. That's all the Weapon switching is for.

Sorry for my rusty english ;).

Youkai

Edit history:

Youkai: 2012-06-27 10:17:18 pm

2012-06-27 06:22:50 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

I see. Thank you Zali. That makes a lot of sense. It definitely will cost time though like you said. I think I am going to have to try and not do that when I'm working on that part of the run.

EDIT: Got the hour 1 commentary recorded. Uploaded the video to my channel. http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA9DB1B3B13498CA0

Youkai

2012-06-28 08:20:51 am

Don't know what to speedrun :(

I'm trying to figure out how KY has enough money. He only does one round of Jelly farming which can get you a maximum of 60k and he has 9k before selling so he has a total possible 70k available. I'm pretty sure he doesn't get the Staff's I have in my spending plan but even that wouldn't save him enough money. I have 2k before farming so I would have a total of 62k after one full round.

I did the math on my planned purchases for the rest of the game and came up with a total of 91k. That seems to indicate that I'll need to do two rounds of Jelly farming. The good news is that I don't need to get a full stack of Yellow Liquid from both which would total 120k for two rounds. So I can save some time by not killing the one or two straggler jellies near the end of the round.

I think KY also doesn't buy as many Hi-Potions as I plan on. This is based on him using Curaga a lot in his later videos. I can think of at least one place where I'm pretty sure that cost him time. Still I wonder how he has enough money with only one round of Jelly farming. If anybody has an idea please feel free to post it.

Storm Staff x2 - 4800
Glacial Staff x2 - 4800
Dispel - 4500
Mirror Mail - 8100
Bio - 4900
Pheasant Netsuke - 4000
Thief's Cap - 9300
Aeroga - 6800
Death - 5200
Hi-Potion x50 - 10500
Decoy - 2500
Thundara - 3000
Blizzara - 3000
Curaga - 3200
Misc Healing Items - 5000
Firaga - 8200
Bubble - 3300

I'm trying to figure out how KY has enough money. He only does one round of Jelly farming which can get you a maximum of 60k and he has 9k before selling so he has a total possible 70k available. I'm pretty sure he doesn't get the Staff's I have in my spending plan but even that wouldn't save him enough money. I have 2k before farming so I would have a total of 62k after one full round.

I did the math on my planned purchases for the rest of the game and came up with a total of 91k. That seems to indicate that I'll need to do two rounds of Jelly farming. The good news is that I don't need to get a full stack of Yellow Liquid from both which would total 120k for two rounds. So I can save some time by not killing the one or two straggler jellies near the end of the round.

I think KY also doesn't buy as many Hi-Potions as I plan on. This is based on him using Curaga a lot in his later videos. I can think of at least one place where I'm pretty sure that cost him time. Still I wonder how he has enough money with only one round of Jelly farming. If anybody has an idea please feel free to post it.

[hidden="Planned purchases"]Storm Staff x2 - 4800
Glacial Staff x2 - 4800
Dispel - 4500
Mirror Mail - 8100
Bio - 4900
Pheasant Netsuke - 4000
Thief's Cap - 9300
Aeroga - 6800
Death - 5200
Hi-Potion x50 - 10500
Decoy - 2500
Thundara - 3000
Blizzara - 3000
Curaga - 3200
Misc Healing Items - 5000
Firaga - 8200
Bubble - 3300
[/hidden]

Zali

2012-06-28 10:07:52 am

For what do you need Thief's Cap? Wouldn't it better you reset until you get what you want, instead of this huge waste of gil? You can also sell the two Storm and Glacial Staffs after usage against Mateus (?) and Tyrant (?).
Gild needed would decrease to 72200 if you do these things. Of course, you get 4800 Gil from selling Glacial Staffs not until your second visit in Balfonheim.

I am not aware of how long the Mirror Mail is planned for the run. So probably you can sell this, too.