FF7 Run [locked]

2005-04-09 05:34:45 am

Yeah, I said it.

Quote:

If I was you I would look up the history of pokemon and why they keep making them in the first place.

I don't know about you, but I don't need to look up history, because I lived through it and was following the VG scene very closely over the internet, with my then-awesome 56k connection. The reason they keep adding new games to the series is because of how much every game in the series sells. It's insane how popular it is. If your average game is selling over 10 million copies, you'd be a fool not to keep making new games. There's no "milking" of the series involved: each game has had over a hundred new creatures, a new world, and new elements of gameplay.

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Yes, the gameboy is the most popular handheld of all time, but it was getting boring. How many really good games are there for gameboy?

Hundreds. Seriously. Don't assume it was fading in popularity because you were oblivious to it. I think you're the one that needs a history lesson.

Quote:

Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania... I like gameboy and gameboy advance just as much as anyone else does, but do they have to port games from NES and SNES to gameboy. How many original games do they make for it?

The Clunker didn't have a single port. Even games based on their NES/SNES counterparts were complete remakes. And Super Mario Land, Link's Awakening, and Return Of Samus were completely original games.

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Technically, pokemon is an original game. It wasn't for the NES or SNES. Sorry to say, but they are milking pokemon for all its worth. Gameboy was not dead, but it was an old man and the arrival of pokemon kept it unique and interesting.

"Technically?" It's original, and that's the end of it. It didn't save the Game Boy, because the Game Boy didn't need saving. It simply boosted it's popularity. But when you're one of the most popular game series ever, and is on track to surpass Mario and become the best selling game series of all time, it's a little hard not to have your system become more popular as well. The Game Boy was always outselling the major consoles.

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All of the final fantasies except for the first few each have different stories, different characters and different gameplay. Can't say that about pokemon.

Are you completely ignorant of the first few FFs and Pokemon? The first few FFs were completely different. The first three games had different characters, different stories, and MUCH different gameplay (One had a SaGa-ish level up system, another had a job system). Each Pokemon game is similar, but they are all different in their own ways. They have different characters (Ash, Hiro (my personal favorite), May, and the other guy) different Pokemon, different worlds, and new gameplay elements, whether it's changes to the stat system, double battles, traits, breeding, etc.

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When it comes to the graphics, they really are good. For that time period they were amazing. I still go back and play 2d games just for the graphics. Just because something isn't 3d doesn't make the graphics bad. <-- I know you didn't say that but I'm saying it now. Like some of the boss battles in FF6...the graphics are just amazing...so much detail.

For the time, FF7's graphics were decent. The summons and FMWs were good, the backgrounds were okay, and the "sprites" were terrible. And in any case, playing a game for it's graphics is just foolish.

[quote]If I was you I would look up the history of pokemon and why they keep making them in the first place.[/quote]

I don't know about you, but I don't need to look up history, because I lived through it and was following the VG scene very closely over the internet, with my then-awesome 56k connection. The reason they keep adding new games to the series is because of how much every game in the series sells. It's insane how popular it is. If your average game is selling over 10 million copies, you'd be a fool not to keep making new games. There's no "milking" of the series involved: each game has had over a hundred new creatures, a new world, and new elements of gameplay.

[quote]Yes, the gameboy is the most popular handheld of all time, but it was getting boring. How many really good games are there for gameboy?[/quote]

Hundreds. Seriously. Don't assume it was fading in popularity because you were oblivious to it. I think you're the one that needs a history lesson.

[quote]Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania... I like gameboy and gameboy advance just as much as anyone else does, but do they have to port games from NES and SNES to gameboy. How many original games do they make for it?[/quote]

The Clunker didn't have a single port. Even games based on their NES/SNES counterparts were complete remakes. And Super Mario Land, Link's Awakening, and Return Of Samus were completely original games.

[quote]Technically, pokemon is an original game. It wasn't for the NES or SNES. Sorry to say, but they are milking pokemon for all its worth. Gameboy was not dead, but it was an old man and the arrival of pokemon kept it unique and interesting.[/quote]

"Technically?" It's original, and that's the end of it. It didn't save the Game Boy, because the Game Boy didn't need saving. It simply boosted it's popularity. But when you're one of the most popular game series ever, and is on track to surpass Mario and become the best selling game series of all time, it's a little hard not to have your system become more popular as well. The Game Boy was [i]always[/i] outselling the major consoles.

[quote]All of the final fantasies except for the first few each have different stories, different characters and different gameplay. Can't say that about pokemon.[/quote]

Are you completely ignorant of the first few FFs and Pokemon? The first few FFs were completely different. The first three games had different characters, different stories, and MUCH different gameplay (One had a SaGa-ish level up system, another had a job system). Each Pokemon game is similar, but they are all different in their own ways. They have different characters (Ash, Hiro (my personal favorite), May, and the other guy) different Pokemon, different worlds, and new gameplay elements, whether it's changes to the stat system, double battles, traits, breeding, etc.

[quote]When it comes to the graphics, they really are good. For that time period they were amazing. I still go back and play 2d games just for the graphics. Just because something isn't 3d doesn't make the graphics bad. <-- I know you didn't say that but I'm saying it now. Like some of the boss battles in FF6...the graphics are just amazing...so much detail.[/quote]

For the time, FF7's graphics were decent. The summons and FMWs were good, the backgrounds were okay, and the "sprites" were terrible. And in any case, playing a game for it's graphics is just foolish.

Yoshi348

2005-04-09 05:57:34 am

dinosaur from the past

Wow, a Pokemon/FF7 fight. I feel both supremely qualified and clueless at the same time. ;^_^

Zen

2005-04-09 06:18:56 am

Forward standard-by-ten .

I feel pretty much completely disgusted. This debate demeans all involved.

Pokemon is aimed at kids. It just is. So what? I make no claims about it as a game. FF7 is, without very much question at all if you've actually played it and FF6, aimed at a much older audience than Pokemon and FF6. So what? If you could comprehend for one moment how inane and stupid every point you've quibbled so far in this thread is, you would probably start cutting yourself.

You, with your stories of 56k (don't even get me started, kiddo), are not a mature person. You are arguing about FF7 and Pokemon on the Internet. So don't pretend for a moment that you are an authority on maturity.

So yeah, uh... speed runs! I think they're neat, and an FF7 speed run would be interesting, if long and repetitive. If Radix doesn't mind making the exception, I'd love to see it up.

Mkt2015

2005-04-09 07:24:26 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Ah Zen, you take the fun out of everything.

Kiddo? I don't know how old Lucid is but I'm 23. Who remembers 2400 Baud? Oh yeah!!

Really, I just wanted to have some fun and argue for a few days. What's the harm in that? Besides, I was thoroughly entertained by the argument that was going on between Lucid and someone about this site and TG.

Just for giggles I wanted to say two things.

1) Original games meaning that it is completely new...no characters from another game (zelda, mario, metroid)...take the difference between Crash Bandicoot and Jak and Daxter. Naughty Dog could've easily made a ps2 Crash Bandicoot, but instead they decided to create something ORIGINAL. Voila...Jak and Daxter, Jak II as well as Jak 3.

and 2) If you don't play games for graphics then stick with pong. Wink

Zen

2005-04-09 07:32:05 am

Forward standard-by-ten .

23 here, put in a lot of time with a ZOOM 2400 on the Seattle Citadel scene once the C=128's 300 baud got old. Good times.

I guess I tend to assume people take these arguments more seriously than they do. Something about Lucid's tone seemed misguidedly bitter toward FF7. It's like the last bastion of the "FF6 4 EVA U GRAPHICS WHORES" crowd from 1997.

Every man has his limit.

Mkt2015

2005-04-09 07:42:44 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

That's one of the hard things about a forum. You can't tell if someone is mad just by reading their writing unless they swear a lot, but sometimes even that is joking.

Whenever I get done with my current rpg run I might go ahead and do FF9. Of course, I was thinking of the original FF's since I have FF Origins for ps1. Each once could probably be beaten in under 5 hours. I heard from somewhere that it could be done in 9 and a half hours.

Zen

2005-04-09 07:47:37 am

Forward standard-by-ten .

An FF9 run would be fun just to get to see Excalibur 2.

Lucid Faia

2005-04-09 08:34:23 am

Yeah, I said it.

Zen, I encourage you to start a practice called "reading comprehension." You completely missed every point I made. I'm not bitter towards FF7, in fact, I called it one of the best games ever. Not once did I bring maturity into this argument, either. This whole argument started when someone called it the most popular game ever, and having nothing to do, I decided to argue that point. I like to argue, and I'm sure most people have figured that out by now. I may come across as really arrogant and biting, but it's honestly because I have nothing better to do at the moment. I never questioned Mkt's maturity, just how knowledgable he is on the Game Boy series and it's popularity.

I'm not sure why you brought up FF3/6j, but I guess I'll say something here. I have thoroughly played FF3/6j and FF7, and FF3/6j is definitely the darker game of the two. The trials and tribulations of the FF3/6j cast outweigh those of the FF7 cast, by far, including Cloud. In FF7, Sephiroth attempted to become a god by throwing a big rock at the planet, and failed. In FF3/6j, Kefka succeeded in becoming a god, destroying more than half the life on the planet, and driving most normal people to suicide.

Here's what I think. You skimmed through this argument, painted a picture of me in your head, probably the stereotypical SNES elitist, and stuck with it. Well, I'm not an SNES elitist. I'm an arrogant asshole. There's a difference. You got a bad read, slick.

By the way, Pong sucks.

Zen, I encourage you to start a practice called "reading comprehension." You completely missed every point I made. I'm not bitter towards FF7, in fact, I called it one of the best games ever. Not once did I bring maturity into this argument, either. This whole argument started when someone called it the most popular game ever, and having nothing to do, I decided to argue that point. I like to argue, and I'm sure most people have figured that out by now. I may come across as really arrogant and biting, but it's honestly because I have nothing better to do at the moment. I never questioned Mkt's maturity, just how knowledgable he is on the Game Boy series and it's popularity.

I'm not sure why you brought up FF3/6j, but I guess I'll say something here. I have thoroughly played FF3/6j and FF7, and FF3/6j is definitely the darker game of the two. The trials and tribulations of the FF3/6j cast outweigh those of the FF7 cast, by far, including Cloud. In FF7, Sephiroth attempted to become a god by throwing a big rock at the planet, and failed. In FF3/6j, Kefka succeeded in becoming a god, destroying more than half the life on the planet, and driving most normal people to suicide.

Here's what I think. You skimmed through this argument, painted a picture of me in your head, probably the stereotypical SNES elitist, and stuck with it. Well, I'm not an SNES elitist. I'm an arrogant asshole. There's a difference. You got a bad read, slick.

By the way, Pong sucks.

Mkt2015

Edit history:

Mkt2015: 2005-04-09 09:22:47 am

2005-04-09 09:21:56 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

I disagree with your assessment that Kefka became a God. In FF6 (I call it 6 because I never played it on SNES and that is the correct number. Also, the only reason why 4 is called 2 and 6 is called 3 is because 4 was the 2nd to come over here and 6 was the 3rd. Besides, I have Anthology and it's called 6 there as well, so there.) Kefka acts like a child the entire game. The only thing on his mind is destroying the world. Does he succeed. Yes. Is he a good bad guy...no. Here's a sort-of quotable quote from Kefka himself. "HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE." Did you get that? Boy, him sounded intelligent, did he not? He doesn't have any clever or witty lines throughout the entire game. He's supposed to be evil-incarnate, but so what. Watch out...here comes some philosophy for ya'. A person who only thinks evil things is not evil. A person who knows the different between good and evil and chooses to do evil things IS evil. Kefka knows only evil.

While I was playing I really wanted to hate the guy, but I just couldn't. If anything, he made me laugh with all of his stupid lines. Not only that, but he threw tantrums jumping up and down and then laughing a second later. What an idiot.

I disagree with your assessment that Kefka became a God. In FF6 (I call it 6 because I never played it on SNES and that is the correct number. Also, the only reason why 4 is called 2 and 6 is called 3 is because 4 was the 2nd to come over here and 6 was the 3rd. Besides, I have Anthology and it's called 6 there as well, so there.) Kefka acts like a child the entire game. The only thing on his mind is destroying the world. Does he succeed. Yes. Is he a good bad guy...no. Here's a sort-of quotable quote from Kefka himself. "HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE." Did you get that? Boy, him sounded intelligent, did he not? He doesn't have any clever or witty lines throughout the entire game. He's supposed to be evil-incarnate, but so what. Watch out...here comes some philosophy for ya'. A person who only thinks evil things is not evil. A person who knows the different between good and evil and chooses to do evil things IS evil. Kefka knows only evil.

While I was playing I really wanted to hate the guy, but I just couldn't. If anything, he made me laugh with all of his stupid lines. Not only that, but he threw tantrums jumping up and down and then laughing a second later. What an idiot.

TSA

2005-04-09 10:19:07 am

Retired

I'm glad when we talk about Zelda, it's only about speed runs. God (generic diety) forbid Zelda timeline debate ever comes to this forum.

Lucid Faia

2005-04-09 11:37:00 am

Yeah, I said it.

Quote:

I disagree with your assessment that Kefka became a God. In FF6 (I call it 6 because I never played it on SNES and that is the correct number. Also, the only reason why 4 is called 2 and 6 is called 3 is because 4 was the 2nd to come over here and 6 was the 3rd. Besides, I have Anthology and it's called 6 there as well, so there.) Kefka acts like a child the entire game. The only thing on his mind is destroying the world. Does he succeed. Yes. Is he a good bad guy...no. Here's a sort-of quotable quote from Kefka himself. "HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE." Did you get that? Boy, him sounded intelligent, did he not? He doesn't have any clever or witty lines throughout the entire game. He's supposed to be evil-incarnate, but so what. Watch out...here comes some philosophy for ya'. A person who only thinks evil things is not evil. A person who knows the different between good and evil and chooses to do evil things IS evil. Kefka knows only evil.

While I was playing I really wanted to hate the guy, but I just couldn't. If anything, he made me laugh with all of his stupid lines. Not only that, but he threw tantrums jumping up and down and then laughing a second later. What an idiot.

Ugh. FF Anthology is the single worst port ever made. Screwed up audio, loading times... blah.

Like Kefka or not, that doesn't really change what he accomplished. He certainly wasn't immortal, but he did become something of a god.

Quote:

I'm glad when we talk about Zelda, it's only about speed runs. God (generic diety) forbid Zelda timeline debate ever comes to this forum.

Don't you get bored? Wink

[quote]I disagree with your assessment that Kefka became a God. In FF6 (I call it 6 because I never played it on SNES and that is the correct number. Also, the only reason why 4 is called 2 and 6 is called 3 is because 4 was the 2nd to come over here and 6 was the 3rd. Besides, I have Anthology and it's called 6 there as well, so there.) Kefka acts like a child the entire game. The only thing on his mind is destroying the world. Does he succeed. Yes. Is he a good bad guy...no. Here's a sort-of quotable quote from Kefka himself. "HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE." Did you get that? Boy, him sounded intelligent, did he not? He doesn't have any clever or witty lines throughout the entire game. He's supposed to be evil-incarnate, but so what. Watch out...here comes some philosophy for ya'. A person who only thinks evil things is not evil. A person who knows the different between good and evil and chooses to do evil things IS evil. Kefka knows only evil.

While I was playing I really wanted to hate the guy, but I just couldn't. If anything, he made me laugh with all of his stupid lines. Not only that, but he threw tantrums jumping up and down and then laughing a second later. What an idiot.[/quote]

Ugh. FF Anthology is the single worst port ever made. Screwed up audio, loading times... blah.

Like Kefka or not, that doesn't really change what he accomplished.  He certainly wasn't immortal, but he did become something of a god.

[quote]I'm glad when we talk about Zelda, it's only about speed runs.  God (generic diety) forbid Zelda timeline debate ever comes to this forum.[/quote]

Don't you get bored? ;)

saxman52

2005-04-09 07:15:31 pm

Very interesting debate. Wow. I never knew forums could take so many different directions with the start of just one topic. It' very fascinating.

Anyhoo, I would appreciate any speed tips from you guys if you have any. If you would like to debate about Pokemon versus Final Fantasy, you might want to start up a different thread.

Interesting debate, though Smiley

Zen

2005-04-09 10:21:35 pm

Forward standard-by-ten .

Lucid: It's all good, as long as you're keeping the proper context. It DID kind of go there, but I did also jump to conclusions. Whatever.

And speaking of timelines, how did Biggs and Wedge survive falling in FF7 to be in FF8? BAM!

Okay, I'm through here. Good luck saxman, sorry I got nothing for you.

saxman52

2005-04-09 10:31:46 pm

Thanks zen.

You do have a point, though. What are Biggs and Wedge doing in FF8? Why are they bad guys? This also raises the question of the Cid character in each FF. Perhaps we have another thread.

Zen

2005-04-09 10:43:54 pm

Forward standard-by-ten .

NO WE DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER THREAD.

saxman52

2005-04-09 10:53:39 pm

lol

Mkt2015

2005-04-09 10:59:18 pm

MGS for PS1 forever.

I don't know if you are joking about Biggs and Wedge, but if you aren't then Biggs and Wedge is a Star Wars reference that started in one of the earlier FFs. I know they are in FF6...but I can't remember if they are in FF4 and 5.

Zen

2005-04-09 11:01:34 pm

Forward standard-by-ten .

They started in FF6, although Woolsey mistransliterated Biggs. And holy CRAP am I ever joking.

Lucid Faia

2005-04-10 12:31:38 am

Yeah, I said it.

Woolsey gets a lot more flak than he should. At least he made the translation entertaining.

Anyways, I'm practicing running FF7 now. I'm not using the speed guide, but I am using his chart of times to see how I'm stacking up. I noticed that it was impossible to match his first Mako Reactor time (7:10 to his 6:40) but that the margin between us stayed about the same, like at the next save point. (30:42 to his 30:05)

Therefore, I'm led to believe that the major difference in the PAL version of the game, as far as the internal timer is concerned, is simply that the clock starts at a later time than it does in the NTSC version.

Mkt2015

2005-04-10 12:59:22 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

I think your time would depend on easy mode or hard mode. This is only really a theory of mine and a friend from way back, but when you get into the first fighter of the game...2 midgar soldiers...it will either take you two turns or 3 turns to beat them. I stumbled on this when I was trying to get the game to work on my PSX emulator. I played the first five minutes of the game about ten time and a few of the times I ended up having to go another round in each battle. I don't know if the guys or harder or if your starting strength is different or what it is. Have any of you heard about this at all?

saxman52

2005-04-10 01:34:29 am

Things like the beginning battle taking 2 or 3 rounds to beat is one of the MANY random variables in FF7. It's one of those things where getting the fastest time means backtracking until all the variables work in your favor.

BTW, I'm glad someone else is practising running the game. Now I have someone to compare my times with. I, also, can't seem to get below 7:10 in that first part.

saxman52

2005-04-10 05:55:27 am

Lucid: You say at "the next save" on your gam you get 30:42, i believe. I can't get below 31:38. What strategy did you use to get your time?

Lucid Faia

Edit history:

Lucid Faia: 2005-04-10 07:16:34 am

2005-04-10 07:15:01 am

Yeah, I said it.

Just the basics, really. Running from every battle, speeding through all dialogue, using optimal boss strategies, and not making big mistakes. I didn't collect items unless they were in my way. Maybe your route is just slightly different from mine, or something.

By the way, I have my first "Midgar" time. When opening the menu immediately after getting out of Midgar and onto the World Map, I'm at 2:07:xx. Can't remember the seconds digits. It was a little sloppy, particularly in the upper levels of the Shinra Building, but that will work itself out as I practice more. By comparison, the author of the speed FAQ was at 2:01:30.

ShadowJedi

2005-04-10 04:35:23 pm

I love FuSN 1G - SG1!

Quote:

I don't know if the guys or harder or if your starting strength is different or what it is. Have any of you heard about this at all?

At every single level-up, and possibly every time you get a new character, your stats are randomly raised by one, two or (possibly) three (HP and MP has higher randomness due to higher numbers). If you are unlucky, your health at level 99 may be around 6k, I think it was, but it can also be maxed at level 8X (may be exaggerated). I havn't tested myself, but I read this, and I have seen stat differences between my saves.

Which brings up another thing about FFVII speedruns, would someone want to restart a segment so that you got better stat-ups after a bossfight? Higher stats = faster battles...

saxman52

2005-04-10 06:01:02 pm

This is a good point about random stats being raised, and yeah, I guess it would make sense to restart a segment until you got the most favorable stat raises. However, the problem comes when you want to check your stats.
On a perfect speed run you'd have to navigate the menu and check your stats after every level up and/or new character. These menu navigations would add up after a while and cost you some serious time, at least where a speed run is concerned.

Most of the battles in the FF7 speed guide are won "perfectly" through luck, experience with each individual actual battle, superior menu navigation and item/materia management, as opposed to recieving the best stats.

In short, I think an FF7 speed run would be barely affected by checking to see if the favorable stats are raised by a favorable number. Ultimately, the stat thingthis might make the overall time slightly shorter, but would definitely take LOTS of time to accomplish.

Thanks for bringing that up, though.

This is a good point about random stats being raised, and yeah, I guess it would make sense to restart a segment until you got the most favorable stat raises. However, the problem comes when you want to check your stats. 
     On a perfect speed run you'd have to navigate the menu and check your stats after every level up and/or new character. These menu navigations would add up after a while and cost you some serious time, at least where a speed run is concerned.

Most of the battles in the FF7 speed guide are won "perfectly" through luck, experience with each individual actual battle, superior menu navigation and item/materia management, as opposed to recieving the best stats.

In short, I think an FF7 speed run would be barely affected by checking to see if the favorable stats are raised by a favorable number. Ultimately, the stat thingthis might make the overall time [i][/i]slightly[i][/i] shorter, but would definitely take LOTS of time to accomplish.

Thanks for bringing that up, though.