FF7 Run [locked]

2005-04-10 06:55:55 pm

Yeah, I said it.

I'm not interested in having too many segments or worrying about stats after leveling up.

Here's a new personal best. Out of Midgar and onto the World Map in one segment, 2:04:12.

saxman52

2005-04-10 07:03:43 pm

One segment? That's impressive Smiley

I've yet to get out of Midgar Sad

I'm hellbent on things going exactly as the speed guide says they should, but obviously they aren't. So I'm contemplating not even worrying about the Euro dude's times. I might just use his boss strats and whatnot.

Maybe I really am horrible at the speed running bit Tongue

Well piss on my tears, I'm gonna keep going Grin

NTG

2005-04-10 07:15:09 pm

I'm indifferent towards YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

This is a good point about random stats being raised, and yeah, I guess it would make sense to restart a segment until you got the most favorable stat raises. However, the problem comes when you want to check your stats.
On a perfect speed run you'd have to navigate the menu and check your stats after every level up and/or new character. These menu navigations would add up after a while and cost you some serious time, at least where a speed run is concerned.

Most of the battles in the FF7 speed guide are won "perfectly" through luck, experience with each individual actual battle, superior menu navigation and item/materia management, as opposed to recieving the best stats.

In short, I think an FF7 speed run would be barely affected by checking to see if the favorable stats are raised by a favorable number. Ultimately, the stat thingthis might make the overall time slightly shorter, but would definitely take LOTS of time to accomplish.

Thanks for bringing that up, though.

Couldn't you check at the end of the segment, after you'd saved? Would potentially mean you'd recorded to the end of the segment unnecessarily, but would mean no loss of "run time", as it were, to check stats.

Looking at that speed guide, the difference between his time and the recommended time is over an hour by the end, so maybe getting good stats saves quite a bit of time.

Anyway, it's just a suggestion, and I know from expierience that recording something for a speedrun that's solely determined by luck can be really irritating, so maybe it's not worth it after all. Huh?

[quote]This is a good point about random stats being raised, and yeah, I guess it would make sense to restart a segment until you got the most favorable stat raises. However, the problem comes when you want to check your stats. 
     On a perfect speed run you'd have to navigate the menu and check your stats after every level up and/or new character. These menu navigations would add up after a while and cost you some serious time, at least where a speed run is concerned.

Most of the battles in the FF7 speed guide are won "perfectly" through luck, experience with each individual actual battle, superior menu navigation and item/materia management, as opposed to recieving the best stats.

In short, I think an FF7 speed run would be barely affected by checking to see if the favorable stats are raised by a favorable number. Ultimately, the stat thingthis might make the overall time [i][/i]slightly[i][/i] shorter, but would definitely take LOTS of time to accomplish.

Thanks for bringing that up, though. [/quote]

Couldn't you check at the end of the segment, after you'd saved? Would potentially mean you'd recorded to the end of the segment unnecessarily, but would mean no loss of "run time", as it were, to check stats.

Looking at that speed guide, the difference between his time and the recommended time is over an hour by the end, so maybe getting good stats saves quite a bit of time.

Anyway, it's just a suggestion, and I know from expierience that recording something for a speedrun that's solely determined by luck can be really irritating, so maybe it's not worth it after all.  ???

Lucid Faia

2005-04-10 07:41:01 pm

Yeah, I said it.

Quote:

One segment? That's impressive Smiley

Thanks. Honestly, the only reason the first segment won't last longer is because I haven't found a reliable way to get past the Midgar Zolom on foot without saving and quiting. Obviously, I'm not a fan of segmented runs. This is probably the only game I'd do one for. Making long segments mean you have to deal with an extra random battle every once in a while, but you also don't have to go through the hassle/time of saving your game and reloading.

Quote:

I've yet to get out of Midgar Sad

I'm hellbent on things going exactly as the speed guide says they should, but obviously they aren't. So I'm contemplating not even worrying about the Euro dude's times. I might just use his boss strats and whatnot.

Well, the author of the speed guide was high on segments, and he was a perfectionist. Unless you're planning on doing a 30-segment run, don't worry about his times too much.

Quote:

Maybe I really am horrible at the speed running bit Tongue

Well piss on my tears, I'm gonna keep going Grin

It's demanding at first, but it isn't so bad. I have speed running experience, so it doesn't bother me anymore, but my first speed run where I actually had competition (SMW) was extremely hard for a while. If you keep at it, as you say you will, it becomes less of a chore, more fun, and you'll get better at it.

[quote]One segment? That's impressive  :)[/quote]

Thanks. Honestly, the only reason the first segment won't last longer is because I haven't found a reliable way to get past the Midgar Zolom on foot without saving and quiting. Obviously, I'm not a fan of segmented runs. This is probably the only game I'd do one for. Making long segments mean you have to deal with an extra random battle every once in a while, but you also don't have to go through the hassle/time of saving your game and reloading.

[quote]I've yet to get out of Midgar  :( I'm hellbent on things going exactly as the speed guide says they should, but obviously they aren't. So I'm contemplating not even worrying about the Euro dude's times. I might just use his boss strats and whatnot.[/quote]

Well, the author of the speed guide was high on segments, and he was a perfectionist. Unless you're planning on doing a 30-segment run, don't worry about his times too much.

[quote]Maybe I really am horrible at the speed running bit  :P
Well piss on my tears, I'm gonna keep going  ;D[/quote]

It's demanding at first, but it isn't so bad. I have speed running experience, so it doesn't bother me anymore, but my first speed run where I actually had competition (SMW) was extremely hard for a while. If you keep at it, as you say you will, it becomes less of a chore, more fun, and you'll get better at it.

saxman52

2005-04-10 07:44:09 pm

I hadn't thought of that NTG. In that case running FF7 with optimum stats might save lots of time (i.e. if you had higher HP you wouldn't have to cure as much during boss battles, higher Strength/Attack means Limit Breaks and attacks would be stronger, etc.).

If someone were to attempt it, they have to be a very patient person with plenty of time.

saxman52

2005-04-10 07:44:38 pm

I forgot to say thanks, NTG.

Lucid Faia

Edit history:

Lucid Faia: 2005-04-12 12:01:16 am

2005-04-11 11:59:54 pm

Yeah, I said it.

I found a nice way to get past the Zolom without saving. It involves luring him into the NW corner of the swamp, and manipulating his movement so that he bounces directly upwards, off of the swamp border. If you can get him to bounce like that, you can bolt for the cave entrance and make it with a few seconds to spare. This tactic hasn't failed on me yet... you might get a random battle, though. And it's only viable for people like me who want as few segments as possible.

Gorash

2005-04-12 08:00:15 am

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Do you still get the cutscene with the other Zolom that way?

NTG

2005-04-12 06:03:22 pm

I'm indifferent towards YaBB 1G - SP1!

I thought I'd get out my old copy of the game (PAL) and see what I could do on the first section. Gave it a few goes, best time I got was 6:48 at the first save point, though as I explain below, this is in NTSC terms around 7:10-12 I believe.

Quote:

Therefore, I'm led to believe that the major difference in the PAL version of the game, as far as the internal timer is concerned, is simply that the clock starts at a later time than it does in the NTSC version.

Hmm, I think this is incorrect. In the Speed FAQ there is discussion of an extra time added on for PAL gamers (3m 15s) which is the result of the FMVs playing at the same speed on both PAL and NTSC.

Timing the opening FMV myself, I make its length approximately 1:50-2:00 (to me it's unclear where the FMV stops), which would give PAL players a 22-24 second 'headstart' over NTSC (assuming the difference in speeds is exactly 1.2 times). This would also explain why the gap between your times and The FAQ's remains fairly constant (providing there are no other FMV sequences in that first half hour). Smiley

I thought I'd get out my old copy of the game (PAL) and see what I could do on the first section. Gave it a few goes, best time I got was 6:48 at the first save point, though as I explain below, this is in NTSC terms around 7:10-12 I believe.

[quote]
Therefore, I'm led to believe that the major difference in the PAL version of the game, as far as the internal timer is concerned, is simply that the clock starts at a later time than it does in the NTSC version.[/quote]

Hmm, I think this is incorrect. In the Speed FAQ there is discussion of an extra time added on for PAL gamers (3m 15s) which is the result of the FMVs playing at the same speed on both PAL and NTSC.

Timing the opening FMV myself, I make its length approximately 1:50-2:00 (to me it's unclear where the FMV stops), which would give PAL players a 22-24 second 'headstart' over NTSC (assuming the difference in speeds is exactly 1.2 times). This would also explain why the gap between your times and The FAQ's remains fairly constant (providing there are no other FMV sequences in that first half hour).  :)

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-04-12 06:41:02 pm

2005-04-12 06:28:21 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

FMV stops exactly the moment the background stops moving.
Arrival of train and the first few people jumping off the train are done by painting polygons on top of the FMV. (Can be seen really nicely in the PC version of the game, where the vids are somewhat lower resolution than the game itself.)

I'm not sure anymore but I think the music changes too at that point.

EDIT: I can't find my FF7 at the moment, but a quick internet research says the opening is 1'59" long.

Lucid Faia

2005-04-12 07:36:23 pm

Yeah, I said it.

That 3'15 he added was only for time from when he laid down the final save point to when he beat the final boss. It's because he had to rely on a stopwatch at that point. The 3'15 had nothing to do with the rest of the run.

And yes, you always get that Zolom cutscene.

Gorash

2005-04-12 08:08:51 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

So the cutscene finally makes sense?

I wondered every time what they wanted to tell me with it:
- party slaughters ugly big snake which can take out half the party in one blow
- party sees another snake in less than optimal state
- girls go sentimental about it

Lucid Faia

2005-04-12 09:04:02 pm

Yeah, I said it.

Not everyone is a powerleveler like you and me. Wink

NTG

2005-04-12 09:43:45 pm

I'm indifferent towards YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

That 3'15 he added was only for time from when he laid down the final save point to when he beat the final boss. It's because he had to rely on a stopwatch at that point. The 3'15 had nothing to do with the rest of the run.

And yes, you always get that Zolom cutscene.

I encourage you to start a practice called "reading comprehension." Tongue

To quote from the FAQ:

Quote:

But then Bergqvist mentioned something about the FMVs. He found out that the
FMVs are run at the same speed in both the PAL and NTSC version. Now that is a
problem. In the PAL version, the FMVs are run at NTSC speed, while the clock is
still 1,2 times slower than the NTSC version. This gives an advantage for PAL
gamers, as they can achieve a better record than NTSC gamers, but that's not
fair for the NTSC gamers.

I then had to calculate how much time PAL gamers gained from this, and thanks a
lot to Mr. Yonaz for giving me the complete list of all the FMV lengths. Now I
could do the calculations, but I completely forgot about the whole thing for
months, until I got back to it last month. I did the calculations, and found
that PAL gamers have about a 3 minutes advantage. I do not have the exact time
yet, but we can say 3:15 for now. It should be pretty much correct. This, of
course, means that my record is not as good as it looks. Damnit.

[quote]That 3'15 he added was only for time from when he laid down the final save point to when he beat the final boss. It's because he had to rely on a stopwatch at that point. The 3'15 had nothing to do with the rest of the run.

And yes, you always get that Zolom cutscene.[/quote]

I encourage you to start a practice called "reading comprehension."  :P

To quote from the FAQ:

[quote]But then Bergqvist mentioned something about the FMVs. He found out that the
FMVs are run at the same speed in both the PAL and NTSC version. Now that is a
problem. In the PAL version, the FMVs are run at NTSC speed, while the clock is
still 1,2 times slower than the NTSC version. This gives an advantage for PAL
gamers, as they can achieve a better record than NTSC gamers, but that's not
fair for the NTSC gamers.

I then had to calculate how much time PAL gamers gained from this, and thanks a
lot to Mr. Yonaz for giving me the complete list of all the FMV lengths. Now I
could do the calculations, but I completely forgot about the whole thing for
months, until I got back to it last month. I did the calculations, and found
that PAL gamers have about a 3 minutes advantage. I do not have the exact time
yet, but we can say 3:15 for now. It should be pretty much correct. This, of
course, means that my record is not as good as it looks. Damnit.
[/quote]

Lucid Faia

2005-04-12 09:57:12 pm

Yeah, I said it.

I told you I hadn't read the whole thing. I'm going by times he posted. Oh well, my mistake.

NTG

2005-04-12 10:22:58 pm

I'm indifferent towards YaBB 1G - SP1!

Wow, I did the first bit again and got 6:32 at the save point, or 6:54 in NTSC terms. There's a lot of luck in it of course, I only fought 3 random encounters on the way down there (sometimes get 4), plus I got away pretty quickly from all of them and only got hit twice by the guards at the start.

I'll probably give recording this game a go sometime then, it's always been one of my favourite games anyway.

Lucid Faia

2005-04-13 12:54:05 am

Yeah, I said it.

My personal best for that area is 6:48, though I didn't go through the trouble of saving, I just opened my menu to look at my time.

So now we've got at least three people working on this. This could get interesting.

iamatmylimit

2005-04-23 09:25:44 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

im going to start a run right now and its my first one.and yes im taping it.

Mr._Haggis

2005-04-24 12:52:15 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Wow there is a lot of interest for this. Tell you what. It has sparked interest in me. Before my vacation in a week I'll try practising the game over and over. DIsc 1 I would say is the longer disc of the 3 and you could probably do the last one in an hour and a bit.

I am going to aim to make a 3 segment run, saving for each end of disc (except disc 3 for obvious reasons). I feel this allows for a better time as you can attempt disc 2 and 3 over several times.

Would anyone object to the above?
PS. Here are some things I thought would save time (sorry if they have been mentioned already):
**Try and keep your current weapons at all costs unless you find better weapons along the shortest routes possible for speedrunning the game efficiently.
**Use barrels to help Aeris in the church a she is weak and fights would take a long time.
**Barge on into the Shinra building rather than climbing the stairs (stat dependant).
**Pick Barret and Red XIII leaving Midgar (for the Zolom cutscene).
**Don't run in bushes pass the Mythril Mine and don't go into Fort Condor.
**Ace the drill practices if you can in Junon to get better items. When the march on TV commences join but then dash in front to cut some seconds off.
**Ignore Gongaga and the Weaponsmith after the Gold Saucer and Badlands.
**In the Caves of Cosmo Canyon use X-Potion on the boss as it will kill it instantly.
**Equip enemy skill to learn Trine from Stilve if you have this materia. It can be handy against other enemies and bosses in essential battles later.
**As stated earlier get the Barrier materia, Demon's Gate is just rock hard without it in a speedrun.

I have other ideas for the other discs but didn't want to spam the thread.

Wow there is a lot of interest for this. Tell you what. It has sparked interest in me. Before my vacation in a week I'll try practising the game over and over. DIsc 1 I would say is the longer disc of the 3 and you could probably do the last one in an hour and a bit.

I am going to aim to make a 3 segment run, saving for each end of disc (except disc 3 for obvious reasons). I feel this allows for a better time as you can attempt disc 2 and 3 over several times.

Would anyone object to the above?
PS. Here are some things I thought would save time (sorry if they have been mentioned already):
**Try and keep your current weapons at all costs unless you find better weapons along the shortest routes possible for speedrunning the game efficiently.
**Use barrels to help Aeris in the church a she is weak and fights would take a long time.
**Barge on into the Shinra building rather than climbing the stairs (stat dependant).
**Pick Barret and Red XIII leaving Midgar (for the Zolom cutscene).
**Don't run in bushes pass the Mythril Mine and don't go into Fort Condor.
**Ace the drill practices if you can in Junon to get better items. When the march on TV commences join but then dash in front to cut some seconds off.
**Ignore Gongaga and the Weaponsmith after the Gold Saucer and Badlands.
**In the Caves of Cosmo Canyon use X-Potion on the boss as it will kill it instantly.
**Equip enemy skill to learn Trine from Stilve if you have this materia. It can be handy against other enemies and bosses in essential battles later.
**As stated earlier get the Barrier materia, Demon's Gate is just rock hard without it in a speedrun.

I have other ideas for the other discs but didn't want to spam the thread.

Mr._Haggis

2005-04-24 04:41:57 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Man I am starting to have doubts but will keep trying anyway. It took me 1hr49mins to get out of Midgar alone. Then to get into Costa Del Sol 2hr43mins. Then leaving Rocket Town at 4hr02mins. I stopped at this stage due to time consumed and it being 4:15am at the time!

I reckon if I were to try this segment again another time I could improve it more and get to the same point in 30mins less time at most. I did a lot of running into points where Cloud got stuck, on boss battles I didn't always choose an option instantly on the menus. I also ran in directions and positions on fields that were "loose" and I could've tighten it up. Dropped the barrels in the wrong places resulting in "Cant Escape" fights for Aeris/Aerith x 2. Some random encounter dodging could have been luckier or better escaped by myself.

Can anyone else state their progress with doing such a run? I am running the original PAL version on a PS2 v12 with textures smoothened for PSone.

zell99

Edit history:

zell99: 2005-04-24 04:57:35 am

2005-04-24 04:57:01 am

Do'h! Homer'D!

Lucid Faia did 1 segment. Out of Midgar and onto the World Map in one segment, 2:04:12. Saxman was also working on a run, but he wasn't done perfecting the Midgar part.

So you getting out of Midgar in 1:49 is very impressive! And if you got to the Tiny Bronco (after Rocket Town) in 4h02, well I don't know what to say.. it's incredible. The author of the Speed Guide at GameFAQs got 4:00:40 at this place, and he did this in a lot of segments.

So don't give up because if these are really your times, you are doing great!

NTG

2005-04-24 12:09:12 pm

I'm indifferent towards YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

PS. Here are some things I thought would save time (sorry if they have been mentioned already):

**Barge on into the Shinra building rather than climbing the stairs (stat dependant).

Very interesting that you mention that, as the Speedrun Guide climbs the stairs at that point. You're over 10 minutes ahead of that guy getting onto the world map, which seems to indicate that not taking the stairs is the faster route.

On another note, I'm playing on a PAL copy as well, which leads me to something else I was thinking about the run. Since we're measuring game time, but Radix will (I presume) be measuring real time, the run will end up being approximately 1.2 times longer in real-time terms when played on a PAL system compared with an NTSC system.

This would make any PAL run over 10 hours at least, and probably up around 11 hours. Now that is way over the '7 hour limit', so what would happen? Some games here (eg. Mario Kart 64) convert PAL times into NTSC times so everything is listed together, whereas for Super Mario 64 PAL and NTSC are listed separately, despite no version differences (I don't know of any for either SM64 or FFVII). So what I'm wondering is would a PAL run even go up, and if it did would it be given a separate category to NTSC runs?

[quote]

PS. Here are some things I thought would save time (sorry if they have been mentioned already):

**Barge on into the Shinra building rather than climbing the stairs (stat dependant).
[/quote]

Very interesting that you mention that, as the Speedrun Guide climbs the stairs at that point. You're over 10 minutes ahead of that guy getting onto the world map, which seems to indicate that not taking the stairs is the faster route.

On another note, I'm playing on a PAL copy as well, which leads me to something else I was thinking about the run. Since we're measuring game time, but Radix will (I presume) be measuring real time, the run will end up being approximately 1.2 times longer in real-time terms when played on a PAL system compared with an NTSC system.

This would make any PAL run over 10 hours at least, and probably up around 11 hours. Now that is way over the '7 hour limit', so what would happen? Some games here (eg. Mario Kart 64) convert PAL times into NTSC times so everything is listed together, whereas for Super Mario 64 PAL and NTSC are listed separately, despite no version differences (I don't know of any for either SM64 or FFVII). So what I'm wondering is would a PAL run even go up, and if it did would it be given a separate category to NTSC runs?

Mr._Haggis

2005-04-24 01:40:06 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Okay, I did take some notes from the Speedrun FAQ in GameFAQ's to work with and if possible improve upon. I'll say this now it's essential your segment be as encounter free as possible. This is what helped me get such a good time I'm thinking. I've also got some more advice about speedrunning the first disc after looking at some of my actions:

**If you want to split your speedrun of Disc 1 into segments, then end your first segment in the middle of the marsh, JUST before the Zolom gets to you by saving your progress. When you start your 2nd segment from that save the Zolom should have respawned from its original position allowing you to run past if you know what you're doing.

I didn't use the above trick I used Lucid's as I only wanted to save once and that would be at the end of Disc 1. When I did the "trial run" last night I didn't save once. I also didn't equip any new weapons or armor, just a couple of accessories. I went to the shops 4 times as well (one time to get Barrier materia and Escape), I didn't need to at one stage so I can improve on this.

Can anyone confirm if Escape magic can get you out of regular Can't Escape battles? If so this would cut a lot of time too.

Lastly, I didn't apply the 5/6 deduction of time so I'm playing faster than I expected. I got to the 1st savepoint in 6m42s. Would that mean I really got there in roughly 5m09s? Sorr if I am calcing bad haha.

Okay, I did take some notes from the Speedrun FAQ in GameFAQ's to work with and if possible improve upon. I'll say this now it's essential your segment be as encounter free as possible. This is what helped me get such a good time I'm thinking. I've also got some more advice about speedrunning the first disc after looking at some of my actions:

**If you want to split your speedrun of Disc 1 into segments, then end your first segment in the middle of the marsh, JUST before the Zolom gets to you by saving your progress. When you start your 2nd segment from that save the Zolom should have respawned from its original position allowing you to run past if you know what you're doing.

I didn't use the above trick I used Lucid's as I only wanted to save once and that would be at the end of Disc 1. When I did the "trial run" last night I didn't save once. I also didn't equip any new weapons or armor, just  a couple of accessories. I went to the shops 4 times as well (one time to get Barrier materia and Escape), I didn't need to at one stage so I can improve on this.

Can anyone confirm if Escape magic can get you out of regular Can't Escape battles? If so this would cut a lot of time too.

Lastly, I didn't apply the 5/6 deduction of time so I'm playing faster than I expected. I got to the 1st savepoint in 6m42s. Would that mean I really got there in roughly 5m09s? Sorr if I am calcing bad haha.

NTG

2005-04-24 02:20:00 pm

I'm indifferent towards YaBB 1G - SP1!

You misunderstand the calulations, you're not really playing faster or slower than expected, the speed difference doesn't affect 'game time' because the game clock ticks slower as well. Your time would only require reduction if you had measured the real time.

On a PAL system, 6m 42s equates to an NTSC time of 7m 04s (this is because the cutscenes do not play slower on the PAL systems, but the timer counting them is still slower). This is all game time of course, in real time, a PAL 6m42s equates to around 7m 40s (whereas an NTSC 7m04s game time would still be 7m04s real time - this is why, when SDA measures real-time, conversion will need to be done between PAL and NTSC times).

I think I've explained everything right there, but I'm not sure it's very clear.. Wink

Mr._Haggis

2005-04-24 02:34:18 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I think I understand now :). Basically though, what the speedrun FAQ did was this. All the movies in the game that have to be included in a speedrun have the same total running time on both regions (PAL/NTSC). But with PAL versions of the speedrun you have to add 3m15s as a penalty for time difference at the end of the run (Disc 3 Final Sephiroth beaten). So really my time couldn't be too much longer than it is already.

How is Lucid's run coming along? Also, I am going to a friend's house with TV card so I can record a single segment of Disc 1 today (only to outside of Midgar as I can't stay there too long). If my run goes as well as it did last night I will be recording it and somehow share it. I'm not sure if I will get as good a time as last time as in that section of hte game on my run I had next to no random encounters, which was surprising. I also made no real errors in running at that part, just the barrels bit in the church.