Feedback from the producers? [locked]

2005-05-18 01:09:55 pm

Hi!

I just wanted to know if any of you speedrunners had
received any feedback from the producers of the game.
If so, what were their reactions?

Cheers,
Brad

Thread title:

Neboke

Edit history:

Neboke: 2005-05-18 02:43:10 pm

2005-05-18 02:42:47 pm

Fight, Crocogator, for everlasting peace!

I saw the topic name and immediately I thought of Retro, who apparently hate speed running and sequence breaking so much they deliberately made MP2: Echoes so that it 'couldn't' be broken.

What dicks.

I can just see them e-mailing a speedrunner... And the entire body of the message would be:

Angry

NintyFanBoy

2005-05-18 05:53:27 pm

Nintendo are the Gods of gaming

If I were a creator of a game I'd see it as a compliment that someone wanted to spend that much time on my game perfecting their skills.

alexpenev

2005-05-18 07:26:19 pm

Quote:

I can just see them e-mailing a speedrunner... And the entire body of the message would be:
Angry

ROFL.

So is Echoes sequence breakable? I HATE it when games are scripted to be totally linear. It gives you no replay value at all since you have to do everything the exact same way the next time around.

Gorash

2005-05-18 07:35:51 pm

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I still don't see the point in making a Metroid, a former synonym to sequence breaking, linear. If the developers browse around a bit they will find nothing but praise for the team of Super Metroid and Zero Mission for having thought of almost every possible sequence break ahead and implementing an alternate way of bypassing the obstacle.

Well, it's their decision...

LLCoolDave

2005-05-18 07:45:38 pm

Quote:

I still don't see the point in making a Metroid, a former synonym to sequence breaking, linear. If the developers browse around a bit they will find nothing but praise for the team of Super Metroid and Zero Mission for having thought of almost every possible sequence break ahead and implementing an alternate way of bypassing the obstacle.

Well, it's their decision...

That's true for Zero Mission, not Super Metroid. Super Metroid just did not PREVENT you from doing what you want, where as in Zero Mission, all "Sequence Breaks" are planned, which is not too nice eithr cause we knew anything important within 48 hours.

Gorash

2005-05-18 08:11:40 pm

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Most of the Super Metroid tricks (excluding Mockball) can also be found pretty quickly if you know what to look for from previous Metroids, it's just that it was the first to include IBJ, wall jump, shinespark etc., but I'll grant that it wasn't intended.

Still I like to feel like a child at easter when I look into a weird corner and try weird stuff and the game acknowledges me with "My, my, who'd have thought you'd look here for an egg? We have, so here's your reward." instead of "Weeeelll, here is in fact a secret passage, but we plan to show it to you later in the game, so it's blocked now. Come again. Bye."
</metaphor-abuse>

Fieari

2005-05-18 08:27:21 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I know that the guys at Valve (Halflife/Halflife2) have seen some speed runs of their game and approve greatly. IIRC, one of the speedrunners for Halflife was invited to their offices (at least had an invitation extended, don't know if he ever took it up), and I do believe that they deliberately designed HL2 in such a way as sequence breaks could be made if you were good enough... as has been shown to be the case. So there's at least one developer who likes speedrunners.

Acryte

Edit history:

Acryte: 2005-05-18 09:45:12 pm

2005-05-18 09:37:43 pm

Zelda Scientist®

Yeah, go valve... I think that Retro games (metroid) is a little more anal about the quality and LINEARness (not a word) of their games because they have only 2 games under their belt. When the 1st game you've ever produced is sequence broken beyond beleif and comprehension, I can see how it detracted from their overall appreciation of THEIR OWN product. This is because it kind of made them feel inadequate in their own programming and testing skills, while other companies like Valve have released many more games and have learned to appreciate those avid gamers who dedicate themselves to the perfection and creativity that can be displayed upon optimal honing of one's skills. This acknowledgement comes in due time, as it did for valve when they took bunny hopping from us, patched all the dang time to take skill from us, and no longer allowed the mp5 to shoot straighter that a laser. The fact that it was Retro's first project kind-of spoiled their love for it because they wanted it to be perfect. Though to us it was MUCH, MUCH, better than it would have been without those breaks. The playability is increased as cool glitches increase... as long as it's an offline game. The perfect example being 3D Zelda games, most particularly the OoT and MM. Did you ever see nintendo complain about complicated and well hidden sequence breaks in past Metroid titles? No, because they have developed many games and have had the time to learn and appreciate the "cool" aspects that can be found through glitches. They understand that it can open up new challenges and new ways of playing and thinking that were beyond even the wildest dreams of the programmers. Give Retro time... as you have seen, there were still a few breaks in the 2nd prime... maybe they will start to appreciate the one thing that matters the most once they've cranked out a few titles: People who love playing the game, and that play to the point of patheticism.

Allantois

2005-05-18 10:27:28 pm

The Unreal Authority.

In American Mcgee's alice there are many times when trying to sequence break that you run into invisible walls and things like that. Clearly there was some thought from the mappers on prevention of the really obvious sequence breaks. But I find it fun to find obsure places to get to that, even with their invisible walls, you can still sequence break.

Radix

2005-05-18 10:35:22 pm

I'm addicted to games

Invisible walls are the most obnoxious crutch I've seen game designers use. If I had the power, I'd ban them outright from all games!

And for the best example of feedback from the producers about speed runs... watch the QdQ production "Scourge done Slick" sometime. In hip3m1, there's the audio clip "The Levelord is impressed" ... that's him saying that, the designer of the level in question. Grin

transience

2005-05-19 11:43:53 am

trust the fungus

I don't know if all sequence breaks were planned in zero mission. some stuff, like skipping the ziplines, aren't "built in". the makers of super metroid had to realize that you could circumvent the proper order of the game, too. I found a few sequence breaks the very first time I played it; if I did, others must have too. it's weird how people like super metroid for being really easy to break, yet dislike zero mission for having it built in.

and nah, I've never gotten any feedback on my ZM runs, nor would I expect to. I can't even imagine what they'd say.

alexpenev

Edit history:

alexpenev: 2005-05-19 01:14:21 pm

2005-05-19 01:12:15 pm

Quote:

Did you ever see nintendo complain about complicated and well hidden sequence breaks in past Metroid titles? No, because they have developed many games and have had the time to learn and appreciate the "cool" aspects that can be found through glitches

Have you played Mario Kart Double Dash? It's MK64 predecessor had 16 track, of which 11 had shortcuts (some levels had two or three shortcuts, used within the same race to go even faster). There's lots of glitches.

Apparently when a few of the SCs were revealed, some developers tried to lay claim and say that they were intentional. Lame!

But now MKDD... they've dumbed it down so much that just by playing the game for half an hour and seeing how little it's physics are capable of makes you almost certain that no shortcut can possibly exist.. lame! Ok, one GP shortcut and one Time Trials shortcut have been found. But the time trials only save about 2 seconds.

Psychochild

2005-05-19 01:21:36 pm

Quote:

Have you played Mario Kart Double Dash? It's MK64 predecessor had 16 track, of which 11 had shortcuts (some levels had two or three shortcuts, used within the same race to go even faster). There's lots of glitches.

Apparently when a few of the SCs were revealed, some developers tried to lay claim and say that they were intentional. Lame!

But now MKDD... they've dumbed it down so much that just by playing the game for half an hour and seeing how little it's physics are capable of makes you almost certain that no shortcut can possibly exist.. lame! Ok, one GP shortcut and one Time Trials shortcut have been found. But the time trials only save about 2 seconds.

Rest in peace, 7 second Wario Stadium lap.

saxman52

Edit history:

saxman52: 2005-05-19 01:27:16 pm

2005-05-19 01:26:49 pm

How do you guys spot glitches and sequence breaks. It almost seems like a gift, or maybe I'm just not that creative. I saw the 45 min Half-Life and thought "Holy crap, how'd he know how to do all this stuff." Does it have something to do with scripted events?

I'm perfecting my Die Hard: Nakatomi Plaza speedrun and I haven't found any glitches, sequence breaks, etc. I'm pretty much just running through everything I'm supposed to run through as fast as I can. Not as exciting as seeing someone find a way to skip whole areas and levels, a la HL/HL2.

SamSim

Edit history:

SamSim: 2005-05-19 03:40:49 pm

2005-05-19 03:38:52 pm

Quote:

How do you guys spot glitches and sequence breaks. It almost seems like a gift, or maybe I'm just not that creative. I saw the 45 min Half-Life and thought "Holy crap, how'd he know how to do all this stuff." Does it have something to do with scripted events?

I'm perfecting my Die Hard: Nakatomi Plaza speedrun and I haven't found any glitches, sequence breaks, etc. I'm pretty much just running through everything I'm supposed to run through as fast as I can. Not as exciting as seeing someone find a way to skip whole areas and levels, a la HL/HL2.

The first step to optimizing a game for a speed run is to know it inside-out, and that means more than the route you took through the game the first time. You need to know where ALL the power-ups and shortcuts and things are, even if you never used them before and never plan to. That's so that firstly, when you do the run, you can quickly recover from unexpected mistakes (like running out of some critical item) and secondly so that you take all the factors into account. Once you've done that, get online and do some seriously in-depth research into the glitches and sequence breaks that have already been discovered, regardless of how potentially useful they may be. It's all knowledge and it could all come in handy when inspiration strikes and that useless glitch actually turns out to have a use. Then keep going. Figure out how the game was actually programmed, try to guess how the programmers made it based on what you already know. What exactly triggers each cutscene? Where are the level boundaries and what happens when you try to cross them? (Other than Radix selectively disallowing your run.)

After that I guess most people just sit down and play the game over and over, or just stare at it, or not even that, they just sit and think until they have a route worked out. For glitches and tiny time-savers basic logic is usually the best way to find them. Just try to turn everything to your advantage.

Major sequence breaks, though, can be found methodically. Start at the final condition that you have to fulfil in order to beat the game - in OoT, for example, that's "beat Ganon" - and follow the chain of conditions backwards. To beat Ganon you need to beat Ganondorf. To beat Ganondorf you need to climb his tower. For that you need to dispel the six barriers. To dispel two of the barriers you need the Gold Gauntlets, for which you need to dispel the Shadow Barrier so that must be done earlier than the other two... you just follow it back and back until eventually you reach "...to get the Deku Shield you need 40 rupees". Then look at each of the conditions and ask yourself, "Is that really necessary? Do I NEED weapon X to cross area Y?" Then go and try out every combination you can think of, see if you can't cross it with just weapons A and B, or weapon C and a load of medkits, or whatever.

You should seriously consider all possibilities. Frequently there turns out to be a way to skip the most insane things. In OoT you skip the Lens Of Truth. How many people, starting from scratch, would sit down and say, "Getting the Lens Of Truth needs quite a detour. Can I skip it?"?

After that it's usually just a case of timing the odd few time-savers to see how efficient they are, weighing up the risks involved in the more difficult shortcuts, and then masterminding and learning your route.

[quote]How do you guys spot glitches and sequence breaks. It almost seems like a gift, or maybe I'm just not that creative. I saw the 45 min Half-Life and thought "Holy crap, how'd he know how to do all this stuff." Does it have something to do with scripted events?

I'm perfecting my Die Hard: Nakatomi Plaza speedrun and I haven't found any glitches, sequence breaks, etc. I'm pretty much just running through everything I'm [i]supposed[/i] to run through as fast as I can. Not as exciting as seeing someone find a way to skip whole areas and levels, a la HL/HL2.[/quote]

The first step to optimizing a game for a speed run is to know it inside-out, and that means more than the route you took through the game the first time. You need to know where ALL the power-ups and shortcuts and things are, even if you never used them before and never plan to. That's so that firstly, when you do the run, you can quickly recover from unexpected mistakes (like running out of some critical item) and secondly so that you take all the factors into account. Once you've done that, get online and do some seriously in-depth research into the glitches and sequence breaks that have already been discovered, regardless of how potentially useful they may be. It's all knowledge and it could all come in handy when inspiration strikes and that useless glitch actually turns out to have a use. Then keep going. Figure out how the game was actually programmed, try to guess how the programmers made it based on what you already know. What [i]exactly[/i] triggers each cutscene? Where are the level boundaries and what happens when you try to cross them? (Other than Radix selectively disallowing your run.)

After that I guess most people just sit down and play the game over and over, or just stare at it, or not even that, they just sit and [i]think[/i] until they have a route worked out. For glitches and tiny time-savers basic logic is usually the best way to find them. Just try to turn everything to your advantage.

Major sequence breaks, though, can be found methodically. Start at the final condition that you have to fulfil in order to beat the game - in OoT, for example, that's "beat Ganon" - and follow the chain of conditions backwards. To beat Ganon you need to beat Ganondorf. To beat Ganondorf you need to climb his tower. For that you need to dispel the six barriers. To dispel two of the barriers you need the Gold Gauntlets, for which you need to dispel the Shadow Barrier so that must be done earlier than the other two... you just follow it back and back until eventually you reach "...to get the Deku Shield you need 40 rupees". Then look at each of the conditions and ask yourself, "Is that really necessary? Do I NEED weapon X to cross area Y?" Then go and try out every combination you can think of, see if you can't cross it with just weapons A and B, or weapon C and a load of medkits, or whatever.

You should seriously consider all possibilities. Frequently there turns out to be a way to skip the most insane things. In OoT you skip the Lens Of Truth. How many people, starting from scratch, would sit down and say, "Getting the Lens Of Truth needs quite a detour. Can I skip it?"?

After that it's usually just a case of timing the odd few time-savers to see how efficient they are, weighing up the risks involved in the more difficult shortcuts, and then masterminding and learning your route.

TSA

2005-05-19 04:27:39 pm

Retired

"You should seriously consider all possibilities. Frequently there turns out to be a way to skip the most insane things. In OoT you skip the Lens Of Truth. How many people, starting from scratch, would sit down and say, "Getting the Lens Of Truth needs quite a detour. Can I skip it?"?

I did...I tried to beat the game without it my very first time cuz I couldn't find it for awhile.

charlie

2005-05-19 05:10:06 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

here's my question. does anybody hope that by investing in achieving very high grade scores/times that companies will consider them for a game testing job?

Yoshi348

2005-05-19 06:43:36 pm

dinosaur from the past

Quote:

"You should seriously consider all possibilities. Frequently there turns out to be a way to skip the most insane things. In OoT you skip the Lens Of Truth. How many people, starting from scratch, would sit down and say, "Getting the Lens Of Truth needs quite a detour. Can I skip it?"?

I did...I tried to beat the game without it my very first time cuz I couldn't find it for awhile.

Yeah, but that's not from sitting down from scratch. You did that only via the motiviation of not being able to find the Lens.

saxman52

Edit history:

saxman52: 2005-05-19 07:51:48 pm

2005-05-19 07:51:21 pm

Thanks for the advice. It all sounds like common sense, which I pretty much lack Tongue

KnifeRun

2005-05-20 01:13:43 am

more keys then pablo escobar

im pretty sure shinji would give me feedback on my sub 2 hours.. REmake... invisible mode knife only run with jill...

Lucid Faia

2005-05-20 04:20:00 am

Yeah, I said it.

Linearity and a lack of sequence breaking are not the same thing. Linearity makes a game more predictable, but that structure works in some games. Lack of sequence breaking turns competitive gaming into contests of skill, rather than contests of route planning, which isn't popular with a few of the speed runners here, apparently.

Ekarderif

2005-05-20 07:31:09 am

Your almighty lordship

Yes, because obviously space jump first means that Kip has no skills whatsoever.

Lucid Faia

2005-05-20 07:11:11 pm

Yeah, I said it.

Quote:

Yes, because obviously space jump first means that Kip has no skills whatsoever.

I'm a little tired, so I may not be reading my post correctly, but I can't seem to find where I said that sequence breakers had no skill.

dirtyminuth

2005-05-20 09:51:57 pm

Reserved Postulator

On one hand, developers may feel they have released a less than quality product if it can be sequence-broken. They might consider it a flaw in their implementation of the game flow. However, I think the developers have nothing to lose as long as instances of sequence-breaking are hard to come by.

Only the most dedicated gamers will discover a sequence-break. To them, it will only make the game more interesting and fun.

Any other gamer will never encounter a sequence-break (assuming the developers spend a reasonable amount of time debugging and playtesting). They won't complain about poor design in terms of sequence-breaking and instead come away with impressions of the desired flow of the game.

-dirtyminuth