Ecco the Dolphin (Genesis)

2006-03-16 12:49:40 am

Yep yep yep!

I'm not sure many people have played or even heard of this excellent game for Sega Genesis, but I'm going to be speedrunning it. Any advice/tips/ect. would be very helpful. Also, I won't have any opportunities for recording until summertime, and I may still be practicing even then, because this is a very hard game, and I intend to make this a SS no-deaths run.

I already watched the TAS of this game at Bisqwit's, and it utilizes a glitch that IS humanly possible to skip huge chunks of the game. I will state right here and now that I do NOT intend to use it, even though it seems perfectly SDA-legal, because I simply don't like it. If enough people want me to, though, I may consider it

Thread title:

spineshark

Edit history:

spineshark: 2006-03-16 12:52:10 am

2006-03-16 12:51:10 am

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

You kept me waiting for so long! Hahaha.

Sweet. Good luck, you will probably need tons.

Is that glitch related to your Dark Water shortcut that you mentioned at m2k2?

BlueGlass

2006-03-16 01:04:03 am

Yep yep yep!

No, it's something I only discovered by watching the TAS. Basically you charge toward a barrier glyph then turn arond just as it forces you back, and the game will glitch and put you on the wrong side. My trick in Dark Watre was just going through a small gap, and I'm beginning to think the designers intended it to be done. because that gap is just perfectly Ecco-sized.

Arrow

2006-03-16 03:39:58 am

Now a hit show on the CW

Would definitely be interested in seeing it. Just the sheer accomplishment of someone beating it SS without dying would be a sight to behold. Personally, I think you need to exploit every possible way to save time you can, which includes the crystal skips (I didn't know those were possible outside of a TAS). But since it's your run, it's your choice.

zfunk007

2006-03-16 04:31:33 am

To Speedrun... or not to Speedrun...

Wow, this game frustrated the hell out of me as a kid. Darn hard game too. Good luck with this one. I'd be impressed to see a no deaths run on this!

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-03-16 05:33:35 am

2006-03-16 05:30:42 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

For whatever reason, this game used to feel quite eerie to me. There was something profound about the serenity and immersion the game seemed to emanate; I could scarcely play it for any sufficient period of time, and it was, indeed, notably difficult.

In any event, I'm quite delighted to see someone running it. Good luck with your run!

tmont

2006-03-16 05:34:40 am

Not going to school today

Quote:

I will state right here and now that I do NOT intend to use it, even though it seems perfectly SDA-legal, because I simply don't like it. If enough people want me to, though, I may consider it

I would suggest that you go for the fastest time, utilizing whatever glitches you can. I had similar qualms about using the ceiling shortcut "glitch" when I ran SMB2 the first time, but I eventually relented. Partly because it's more difficult to do, but mainly because it's faster, and that's what this site is all about. In any case, good luck.

zfunk007

2006-03-16 03:44:41 pm

To Speedrun... or not to Speedrun...

Yeah, but if he ran it without the glitch they he could put in the description, "ran without glitch, full" or something like that. I think it looks better when you don't use glitches like that. Certain ones are ok but I don't know. I agree that he should beat the game the legitimate way.

nate

2006-03-16 05:46:38 pm

will have to talk to radix, but i think that use of the glitch will probably be required for the first run, though it is also conceivable that not using the glitch might constitute a separate category.

BlueGlass

2006-03-16 09:10:40 pm

Yep yep yep!

All right, I relent; I'll use the glyph glitch. I did a practice run, (I still have a LOT of improvment to do, though, obviously) and I think the hardest levels are going to be Dark Water, The Lagoon, and Ridge Water, in that order from hardest to easiest. The good news is that two of these are fairly early on in the run. The bad news is that Dark Water is near the end of the game.
I also experimented with the glyph glitch a bit, and I can't seem to use it everywhere the TAS does, *glares at the arctic levels* but it'll allow me to cut out out over half of Medusa Bay, a chunk of Undercaves, a bit of Island Zone, a few seconds off Marble Sea and Deep City, a large part of Pterodactyl Pond, and possibly a bit of Trilobite Circle.

nate

2006-03-17 07:21:54 am

the lagoon? really? *plays level again*

hmm, yeah, it's long, but what part(s) are you having trouble with specifically? i know it gets a little crazy near the end, but nothing a little practice won't help iirc ... you aren't going for 100% (rescuing everyone), are you?

MMAN

2006-03-17 09:30:20 am

I haven't played Ecco 1 for ages, but if it's half as tricky as Ecco 2 (Tides of time) can be at times then watching it get owned should be pretty impressive Smiley

.

BlueGlass

2006-03-17 05:43:20 pm

Yep yep yep!

Quote:

the lagoon? really? *plays level again*

hmm, yeah, it's long, but what part(s) are you having trouble with specifically? i know it gets a little crazy near the end, but nothing a little practice won't help iirc ... you aren't going for 100% (rescuing everyone), are you?

What parts specifically? Let's see, getting rid of the boulder by the octopus quickly, that part with the two crabs and the strong current where I always seem to get held up for, like, ten seconds and get hit multiple times, and is it possible to evade the grabby-tentacle thing that is sitting right at the exit to the tunnel just after the barrier glyph? Because that wold save a good deal of time. Also, did you know that if a dolphin is following you and you die, the dolphin vanishes and your health (but not air) is instantly refilled? I'm debting taking a second to grab the dolphin in the cave with the key glyph and not worrying so much about health. No, I'm not doing a 100% run.

nate

2006-03-17 09:35:47 pm

ok, i recorded myself playing the level, and did some pretty interesting things you might find helpful.

http://nate.quandra.org/ecco_stuff.avi

just a disclaimer: this is not a speed run. the play quality is abominable (you can see that i barely remembered the level), the audio is bad, and the video in general is not production quality. it is intended for educational purposes only. Tongue

with that out of the way, you should check what the tas does at the octopus ... i'm sure there's some ridiculous way to get through there quickly, but i'm not aware of it, whatever it is. all i know about is that if you get far enough through, you can charge (b) and the arm will miss you as it comes down. i don't do that in the video though.

as for the first crab tunnel, you need to line up as shown in the video and then just go full speed ahead. if you start to get caught on the edges, shake the dpad up and down to try to break free as i did in that old undercaves demo vid. btw, i did a test of b vs c, and iirc they're exactly the same, assuming you're going top speed with c or rapidly hitting b. so use the best one for the job (c for more precise steering, b if there are enemies getting in the way and you can't afford the health lost going through them).

iirc, if you don't want to get hit like i did in the second crab tunnel, you can push the stars way ahead of you at risk of losing them and the crabs will get hit by them. either that or it's stay right inside of them ... lol, my memory is so bad. anyway, you should have plenty of life with your sacrificial dolphin (a trick i did not know about, btw!), so there's probably no point in slowing down there at all imho.

missing crap at the exit seemed pretty simple; just hang left as shown and be charging (b) to pre-emptively kill anything that gets in your way.

hope that helps.

(btw, don't you just love what happened to me at the air after unlocking the glyph? game is awesome, but still has some issues sometimes. :P)

ok, i recorded myself playing the level, and did some pretty interesting things you might find helpful.

[url]http://nate.quandra.org/ecco_stuff.avi[/url]

just a disclaimer: [b]this is not a speed run[/b]. the play quality is abominable (you can see that i barely remembered the level), the audio is bad, and the video in general is not production quality. it is intended for [b]educational purposes only[/b]. :P

with that out of the way, you should check what the tas does at the octopus ... i'm sure there's some ridiculous way to get through there quickly, but i'm not aware of it, whatever it is. all i know about is that if you get far enough through, you can charge (b) and the arm will miss you as it comes down. i don't do that in the video though.

as for the first crab tunnel, you need to line up as shown in the video and then just go full speed ahead. if you start to get caught on the edges, shake the dpad up and down to try to break free as i did in that old undercaves demo vid. btw, i did a test of b vs c, and iirc they're exactly the same, assuming you're going top speed with c or rapidly hitting b. so use the best one for the job (c for more precise steering, b if there are enemies getting in the way and you can't afford the health lost going through them).

iirc, if you don't want to get hit like i did in the second crab tunnel, you can push the stars way ahead of you at risk of losing them and the crabs will get hit by them. either that or it's stay right inside of them ... lol, my memory is so bad. anyway, you should have plenty of life with your sacrificial dolphin (a trick i did not know about, btw!), so there's probably no point in slowing down there at all imho.

missing crap at the exit seemed pretty simple; just hang left as shown and be charging (b) to pre-emptively kill anything that gets in your way.

hope that helps.

(btw, don't you just love what happened to me at the air after unlocking the glyph? game is awesome, but still has some issues sometimes. :P)

BlueGlass

Edit history:

BlueGlass: 2006-03-19 05:01:17 am

2006-03-17 11:02:55 pm

Yep yep yep!

Thanks for the vid, Nate (you don't mind me capitalizing your name, do you?)! Now I can get past those stupid crabs easily and quickly. The "extra life" trick was something I found by pure chance, and I haven't heard of it anywhere, so it's possible I'm the first person to find it. About the second crab tunnel, I just found out that if you keep the star ring at the top of the tunnel, it'll run right into every crab but the first one.

EDIT: okay, I might as well post my route

Home Bay: jump, leave

Medusa Bay: jump two islands, then swim down-right then right to exit, glitch through glyph

Undercaves: grab key glyph, sonar barrier glyph, use neat little speed trick I found to go through current instead of going around, grab key glyph 2, push shell into rocks, 2nd barrier glyph, glitch past barrier glyph 3, grab final key glyph and leave

The Vents: jump over islands (must find a quick way to do this) then push rock down current and leave

The Lagoon: go left, push shell down, grab key glyph, grab dolphin? sonar star ring, go to 2nd star ring eating a fish on route, sonar ring past octopus (must practice), go past barrier glyph, go down, crab tunnel 1, air refill, 3rd star ring, leave

Ridge Water: push rock down vent, push shell 1 into rocks, push shell 2 into next rocks, grab key glyph, pass barrier glyph, charge down passage to star ring, grab air refill while taking star ring back down passage, 2nd star ring, go to surface, grabbing fish on way, last key glyph, last barrier glyph, leave

Open Ocean: use nice little strategy I found to go full speed through the level and only get hit once (if anyone has a better way please tell me)

Ice Zone: go to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, leave

Hard Water: go left, take left path to key glyph, take right path back out, go down from start (must find the right timing to pass the ice cubes without slowing down), skirt edge of Big Field O' Ice Cubes to barrier glyph, leave

Cold Water: go to surface, right to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, grab key glyph 2 on way to Big Blue, speed through text, tale upper passage back to barrier glyph, return to surface, right to exit

Island Zone: down then left, SLOWLY push rock over edge, grab key glyph, jump over first three islands (must find a fast way to do this), down then right to octopus, right to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, down to bottom, then left though crab tunnel, up to exit (using key from first glyph)

Deep Water: go to Asterite, speed through text, leave

Marble Sea: go left, push block, grab invincibility? sonar acess glyph from exit path, glyph glitch, leave

The Library: left, down, left, invincibility, block puzzle (using scrolling glitch to skip pits), grab invincibility? right, up, left to barrier, charge barrier (I wonder why this one can simply be destroyed with a charge while all others require acess glyphs), leave

Deep City: build up speed for jump, jump (must practice this), go right and down to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, invincibility, 2nd invincibility, down to acess glyph, re-grab invincibility, bypass both currents (must practice), leave

City of Forever: take shortcut, activate time machine

Jurasic Beach: pteradon glyph, pteradon, right passage to key glyph, left passage to barrier glyph, , invincibility, glyph glitch through second barrier glyph, leave

Pteradon Pond: pteradon glyph, pteradon, down to barrier glyph, grabbing key glyph on way, glyph glitch, glyph glitch again (grab invincibility first?), glyph glitch AGAIN, sonar last barrier glyph, last pteradon glyph, take current and go through fake wall to surface

Origin Beach: grab key glyph (is there a way to avoid the trilobie, because I don't want it chasing me throughout the level), jump over island and admire the very pretty sky, sonar barrier glyph, take shortest route to exit

Trilobite Circle: go up and right then down, go down diagonal passage to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, go to exit

Dark Water:
without glyph glitch: go down to 1st invincibility glyph, get invincibility, go to first key/invincibility glyph, refill invincibility, return to 1st invincibility glyph, refill invincibility, take shortcut to Asterite, charge the 2 brown globes in a row and one more before invincibility wears off, charge one more brown globe
with glyph glitch: go down, then take shortcut, go to second barrier glyph, glyph glitch, fight Asterite and pray

Deep Water: see above

City of Forever: see above

Home Bay: jump

The Tube: don't die

Welcome to the Machine: the same, try to avoid slowdown

The Final Fight: sonar vortex drone as late as possible to prevent the appearance of another one, charge mouth, avoid suction, sonar left eye, charge mouth, avoid suction, sonar right eye, charge mouth, avoid suction, repeat 9 times, charge twice, sonar drones, charge three times, win (is there a faster way to do this fight?)

Wow this took, like, an hour to type up. If Nate (or anyone else, for that matter) has any advice, please let me know!

EDIT 2: Just managed the glyph glitch in the ice levels, route changed accordingly. Runs using the glyph glitch should REALLY be put in a seperate category. And I definitely plan to do a no glyph glitch run at some point.

EDIT 3: What's more important, having a good chance of surviving the Asterite, or reaching it quickly? I just managed the glyph glitch in Dark Water. This saves the time of going to the key glyph and back, but it means I can't have my precious few seconds of invincibility during the fight. This saves about 15 seconds but greatly increases my chances of dying. Also managed the glyph glitch in Jurassic Beach. Route updated again.

Thanks for the vid, Nate (you don't mind me capitalizing your name, do you?)!  Now I can get past those stupid crabs easily and quickly.  The "extra life" trick was something I found by pure chance, and I haven't heard of it anywhere, so it's possible I'm the first person to find it.  About the second crab tunnel, I just found out that if you keep the star ring at the top of the tunnel, it'll run right into every crab but the first one.

EDIT: okay, I might as well post my route

Home Bay: jump, leave

Medusa Bay: jump two islands, then swim down-right then right to exit, glitch through glyph

Undercaves: grab key glyph, sonar barrier glyph, use neat little speed trick I found to go through current instead of going around, grab key glyph 2, push shell into rocks, 2nd barrier glyph, glitch past barrier glyph 3, grab final key glyph and leave

The Vents: jump over islands (must find a quick way to do this) then push rock down current and leave

The Lagoon: go left, push shell down, grab key glyph, grab dolphin? sonar star ring, go to 2nd star ring eating a fish on route, sonar ring past octopus (must practice), go past barrier glyph, go down, crab tunnel 1, air refill, 3rd star ring, leave

Ridge Water: push rock down vent, push shell 1 into rocks, push shell 2 into next rocks, grab key glyph, pass barrier glyph, charge down passage to star ring, grab air refill while taking star ring back down passage, 2nd star ring, go to surface, grabbing fish on way, last key glyph, last barrier glyph, leave

Open Ocean: use nice little strategy I found to go full speed through the level and only get hit once (if anyone has a better way please tell me)

Ice Zone: go to barrier glyph, glyph glitch,  leave

Hard Water: go left, take left path to key glyph, take right path back out, go down from start (must find the right timing to pass the ice cubes without slowing down), skirt edge of Big Field O' Ice Cubes to barrier glyph, leave

Cold Water: go to surface, right to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, grab key glyph 2 on way to Big Blue, speed through text, tale upper passage back to barrier glyph, return to surface, right to exit

Island Zone: down then left, SLOWLY push rock over edge, grab key glyph, jump over first three islands (must find a fast way to do this), down then right to octopus,  right to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, down to bottom, then left though crab tunnel, up to exit (using key from first glyph)

Deep Water: go to Asterite, speed through text, leave

Marble Sea: go left, push block, grab invincibility? sonar acess glyph from exit path, glyph glitch, leave

The Library: left, down, left, invincibility, block puzzle (using scrolling glitch to skip pits), grab invincibility? right, up, left to barrier, charge barrier (I wonder why this one can simply be destroyed with a charge while all others require acess glyphs), leave

Deep City: build up speed for jump, jump (must practice this), go right and down to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, invincibility, 2nd invincibility, down to acess glyph, re-grab invincibility, bypass both currents (must practice), leave

City of Forever: take shortcut, activate time machine

Jurasic Beach: pteradon glyph, pteradon, right passage to key glyph, left passage to barrier glyph, , invincibility, glyph glitch through second barrier glyph, leave

Pteradon Pond: pteradon glyph, pteradon, down to barrier glyph, grabbing key glyph on way, glyph glitch, glyph glitch again (grab invincibility first?), glyph glitch AGAIN, sonar last barrier glyph, last pteradon glyph, take current and go through fake wall to surface

Origin Beach: grab key glyph (is there a way to avoid the trilobie, because I don't want it chasing me throughout the level), jump over island and admire the very pretty sky, sonar barrier glyph, take shortest route to exit

Trilobite Circle: go up and right then down, go down diagonal passage to barrier glyph, glyph glitch, go to exit

Dark Water: 
without glyph glitch: go down to 1st invincibility glyph, get invincibility, go to first key/invincibility glyph, refill invincibility, return to 1st invincibility glyph, refill invincibility, take shortcut to Asterite, charge the 2 brown globes in a row and one more before invincibility wears off, charge one more brown globe
with glyph glitch: go down, then take shortcut, go to second barrier glyph, glyph glitch, fight Asterite and pray

Deep Water: see above

City of Forever: see above

Home Bay: jump

The Tube: don't die

Welcome to the Machine: the same, try to avoid slowdown

The Final Fight: sonar vortex drone as late as possible to prevent the appearance of another one, charge mouth, avoid suction, sonar left eye, charge mouth, avoid suction, sonar right eye, charge mouth, avoid suction, repeat 9 times, charge twice, sonar drones, charge three times, win (is there a faster way to do this fight?)

Wow this took, like, an hour to type up.  If Nate (or anyone else, for that matter) has any advice, please let me know!

EDIT 2: Just managed the glyph glitch in the ice levels, route changed accordingly.  Runs using the glyph glitch should REALLY be put in a seperate category.  And I definitely plan to do a no glyph glitch run at some point.

EDIT 3: What's more important, having a good chance of surviving the Asterite, or reaching it quickly?  I just managed the glyph glitch in Dark Water.  This saves the time of going to the key glyph and back, but it means I can't have my precious few seconds of invincibility during the fight.  This saves about 15 seconds but greatly increases my chances of dying.  Also managed the glyph glitch in Jurassic Beach.  Route updated again.

7 0 x 7

2006-03-18 02:38:28 pm

ouch!

Quote:

I'm not sure many people have played or even heard of this excellent game for Sega Genesis, but I'm going to be speedrunning it. Any advice/tips/ect. would be very helpful. Also, I won't have any opportunities for recording until summertime, and I may still be practicing even then, because this is a very hard game, and I intend to make this a SS no-deaths run.

I already watched the TAS of this game at Bisqwit's, and it utilizes a glitch that IS humanly possible to skip huge chunks of the game. I will state right here and now that I do NOT intend to use it, even though it seems perfectly SDA-legal, because I simply don't like it. If enough people want me to, though, I may consider it

who hasn't heard of ecco the dolphin haha! thats like one of the most popular games on sega genesis. DO IT, i will watch it Smiley

spineshark

2006-03-18 03:43:30 pm

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

I think that the game list proves that this isn't exactly a Sega-oriented site.

-Suzaku-

2006-03-18 04:00:05 pm

Eternal Understudy

A few people want to change that. I got a Genesis a few months ago, and while my library is still small, I want to help out in the addition of Sega Games.

spineshark

2006-03-18 04:12:06 pm

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

I know that...I was going to buy a Genesis approximately today, but the store that had them closed. Sad

7 0 x 7

2006-03-18 04:22:14 pm

ouch!

We have 2 Sega Saturn JPN systems (WHITE) don't
know if that would interest anyone... I think if the demand is
high enough, we might get some Sega Genesis systems.
they would probably sell for around 20 - 30 USD.

Ecco the dolphin used to be one of my fav SEGA games!

nate

2006-03-18 09:09:58 pm

how confident are you at the asterite without invinc? i guess it depends on the sum of your death:win ratio and how long you want to dedicate to this run as to whether you ought to take the shortcut. i tried to find my other videos just now to no avail ... i think they're really gone. oh well, we'll have new ones soon enough. Smiley

actually, the more i think about it, the more i think ecco would be a good game to ss if it weren't for dark water and i guess the end of the game. saying this compared to like prime or fusion or something where you have all this random skill (in the case of prime) or just dumbass random (in the case of fusion) stuff that will make the ss look bad compared to a segmented. sure, random crap is going to happen in an ecco ss, but the game plays so insanely fast that a good player will produce an amazing ss regardless, it's just getting through dark water and then not suiciding from nerves in the machine or at the queen. having said that, i think that individual-level times would also be a really good addition to the site, and i would be willing to help you get times on levels you're less interested in doing if you want to work with me to get a complete set (a complete set is required for posting as per radix).

also, i apologize if you've said this elsewhere, but how are you planning on recording, and what kind of time period are we talking about here? just curious, because i can be much more helpful to you come june.

how confident are you at the asterite without invinc? i guess it depends on the sum of your death:win ratio and how long you want to dedicate to this run as to whether you ought to take the shortcut. i tried to find my other videos just now to no avail ... i think they're really gone. oh well, we'll have new ones soon enough. :)

actually, the more i think about it, the more i think ecco would be a good game to ss if it weren't for dark water and i guess the end of the game. saying this compared to like prime or fusion or something where you have all this random skill (in the case of prime) or just dumbass random (in the case of fusion) stuff that will make the ss look bad compared to a segmented. sure, random crap is going to happen in an ecco ss, but the game plays so insanely fast that a good player will produce an amazing ss regardless, it's just getting through dark water and then not suiciding from nerves in the machine or at the queen. having said that, i think that individual-level times would also be a really good addition to the site, and i would be willing to help you get times on levels you're less interested in doing if you want to work with me to get a complete set (a complete set is required for posting as per radix).

also, i apologize if you've said this elsewhere, but how are you planning on recording, and what kind of time period are we talking about here? just curious, because i can be much more helpful to you come june.

7 0 x 7

2006-03-18 09:14:27 pm

ouch!

i agree with nate! SS the mutha'! Ive never been a fan of segmented runs. sure they are fast and all but really its kind of like having infinite restarts. In SS you have to beat the whole game in one life, no deaths no restarting the level, if you make a costly mistake you have to restart the entire game not just back to the last save point.

SS is teh ownegder

Lag.Com

2006-03-18 11:04:39 pm

sda loyalist

Whatever's faster.

This game is really, really hard. I remember far too many restarts on the forced scrolling machine level... agh. I'll be very impressed to see a speedrun of this, though the TAS was very amusing too.

nate

Edit history:

nate: 2006-03-18 11:30:31 pm

2006-03-18 11:30:26 pm

when would segmented not be faster? Tongue

or are you referring to the asterite question? the problem is that the faster method may sabotage the run in the sense that he tries it 48234034934 times and then gets frustrated and kills himself and the game, and not necessarily in that order.

Lag.Com

2006-03-19 12:23:29 am

sda loyalist

Well, in old games like this that weren't designed or advertised as "providing x0 hours of immersive entertainment" etc, single-segment is probably the way to go. Smiley

I do recommend the invinc, though. I think you'll be hard pressed keeping the concentration level up on this complex and very stop-start motion game.