EarthBound

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-25 07:57:12 pm

2007-01-25 07:34:08 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Quote:

Ness has massive PP, and it costs a whole 2 PP per failed teleport. I think he'll be fine, and if not, a single Magic Truffle would fix it. Either way, Ness isn't exactly the one laying out the PSI beating in the Fire Spring.

True, just didn't know how much we would be using PP because of our low levels. At a lower level, Paula is the one that normally has more to dish out at enemies, too. Yea, magic truffles will be our trump card if we ever desparately need it, you're right.

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Yeah, I know the Meteorite drop is useless, but, seriously, isn't that 1/128?

Yep, and I have only gotten that thing in very few casual plays of this game. Of course, I usually try to avoid fighting in Onett myself.

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If he had gotten a Star Pennant or the Gutsy Bat instead with those same odds... Yeah, obviously going for drops lategame is pointless as is going for drops the whole game really since pretty much every good item drop has pretty awful odds on it. Of course, if you're lucky enough to get a Pizza drop in the arcade, you would do a little dance and save some seconds in the monkey cave(to say nothing of your response if you got a 1/128 bomb drop from the Attack Slugs, a possibility so remote that it shouldn't even be considered by the route).

Well, we will avoid as much fighting as possible already in the Fire Spring, so fighting a Major Psychic Psycho is already out of the picture just about anyway. Consuming Flame and the Ghost (can't remember his name) are the enemies you fight the most in this place; which is good for us because of Freeze (for the Consuming Flame, of course). I have never personally gotten a Gutsy Bat. Never took the time to find and kill that many Bionic Krakens. Ironically, the stategy guide says that the Krakens in Magicant are the ones that drop the Gutsy bat. You can only fight the ones in Magicant once, though, so the Bionic Kraken in the Past make more sense in having one. Yea, the bombs are so helpful yet, would not be an option for us to try to get anyway.

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Are you sure Brainshock would be needed against Giygas's second form? If we honestly get the Sea Pennant and those Night Pennants, his second form won't be too big of a threat and won't last long either way. Poo is our main damage dealer in that form so losing him hurts... Of course, if we are going the status route, I don't think we even need the Pennants. Shield Sigma plus Paralysis basically makes us immune to the first form, and Brainshock makes the second form quite bearable. It wasn't exactly fast to go to the Saturn Shop, and less time in the Lost World does not hurt at all. Meh, we could give Paula the Night Pennant from earlier in the run if it were a real concern since Brainshock will doubtlessly last us through the first form in decent shape, and in the second form we actually gain time if the other characters die.

So, basically the first round for us would consist of:
1. Ness using paralysis
2. Shield from Paula
3. First MBR (Jeff having the Rabbit's Foot)
4. Poo using Brainshock

Of course, these won't be in order, and hopefully Ness uses Paralysis before HAP attacks. If Poo can get a Brainshock off before Giygas attacks, which seems reasonable, then Giygas will hurt Pokey some for us, too.

By doing the major defensive and offensive (not really attacks but offensive spells) now, that would save us a lot of headache in case something really random happens later on. Paula will not have to use Shield Sigma more than once so, that won't waste much time in the first form. Plus, Jeff is our main man for this form of Giygas anyway. If we use my strategy above for the first round of Giygas, how many Pendants should we need, then? We will have a night pendant from Moonside, and if we want it, a Sea Pendant from Lost Underworld ~~(this might be faster than going to Saturn store later).~~ Thank you Floogal, forgot the sea pendant isn't there.

Quote:

Even if the run turned out to not be that great, thanks goes out to both the runner and nate, for now we have something to go on. Hopefully something good comes from this.

I agree, thank you Nate for your hard work in getting this run uploaded for us, and thank you evil_ninja for doing the run, though sadly it was not accepted in the end.

I might not be able to actually start "running" the game right now, but I can at least practice some of these strategies. I will be more active in practicing after my Mickey run is done (hopefully). If that doesn't work out all that well at the moment, then I will do all I can to improve this time. This is the game I most want to run, anyway. Everyone has given a lot of good information and we now know what we can do, for the most part, to get this time down lower.

I have an idea: Could someone that is good at timing segments get the best estimate you can for each and post up here. I will do some myself, and we can compare and see who's more accurate.

[quote]Ness has massive PP, and it costs a whole 2 PP per failed teleport.  I think he'll be fine, and if not, a single Magic Truffle would fix it.  Either way, Ness isn't exactly the one laying out the PSI beating in the Fire Spring.[/quote]

True, just didn't know how much we would be using PP because of our low levels. At a lower level, Paula is the one that normally has more to dish out at enemies, too. Yea, magic truffles will be our trump card if we ever desparately need it, you're right.

[quote]Yeah, I know the Meteorite drop is useless, but, seriously, isn't that 1/128?[/quote]
Yep, and I have only gotten that thing in very few casual plays of this game. Of course, I usually try to avoid fighting in Onett myself.

[quote]If he had gotten a Star Pennant or the Gutsy Bat instead with those same odds...  Yeah, obviously going for drops lategame is pointless as is going for drops the whole game really since pretty much every good item drop has pretty awful odds on it.  Of course, if you're lucky enough to get a Pizza drop in the arcade, you would do a little dance and save some seconds in the monkey cave(to say nothing of your response if you got a 1/128 bomb drop from the Attack Slugs, a possibility so remote that it shouldn't even be considered by the route).[/quote]

Well, we will avoid as much fighting as possible already in the Fire Spring, so fighting a Major Psychic Psycho is already out of the picture just about anyway. Consuming Flame and the Ghost (can't remember his name) are the enemies you fight the most in this place; which is good for us because of Freeze (for the Consuming Flame, of course). I have never personally gotten a Gutsy Bat. Never took the time to find and kill that many Bionic Krakens. [b]Ironically, the stategy guide says that the Krakens in Magicant are the ones that drop the Gutsy bat.[/b] You can only fight the ones in Magicant once, though, so the Bionic Kraken in the Past make more sense in having one. Yea, the bombs are so helpful yet, would not be an option for us to try to get anyway.

[quote]Are you sure Brainshock would be needed against Giygas's second form?  If we honestly get the Sea Pennant and those Night Pennants, his second form won't be too big of a threat and won't last long either way.  Poo is our main damage dealer in that form so losing him hurts...  Of course, if we are going the status route, I don't think we even need the Pennants.  Shield Sigma plus Paralysis basically makes us immune to the first form, and Brainshock makes the second form quite bearable.  It wasn't exactly fast to go to the Saturn Shop, and less time in the Lost World does not hurt at all.  Meh, we could give Paula the Night Pennant from earlier in the run if it were a real concern since Brainshock will doubtlessly last us through the first form in decent shape, and in the second form we actually gain time if the other characters die.[/quote]

So, basically the first round for us would consist of:
1. Ness using paralysis
2. Shield from Paula
3. First MBR (Jeff having the Rabbit's Foot)
4. Poo using Brainshock

Of course, these won't be in order, and hopefully Ness uses Paralysis before HAP attacks. If Poo can get a Brainshock off before Giygas attacks, which seems reasonable, then Giygas will hurt Pokey some for us, too.

By doing the major defensive and offensive (not really attacks but offensive spells) now, that would save us a lot of headache in case something really random happens later on. Paula will not have to use Shield Sigma more than once so, that won't waste much time in the first form. Plus, Jeff is our main man for this form of Giygas anyway. [b]If we use my strategy above for the first round of Giygas, how many Pendants should we need, then?[/b] We will have a night pendant from Moonside, and if we want it, a Sea Pendant from Lost Underworld [s](this might be faster than going to Saturn store later).[/s] Thank you Floogal, forgot the sea pendant isn't there.

[quote]Even if the run turned out to not be that great, thanks goes out to both the runner and nate, for now we have something to go on. Hopefully something good comes from this.[/quote]

I agree, thank you Nate for your hard work in getting this run uploaded for us, and thank you evil_ninja for doing the run, though sadly it was not accepted in the end.

I might not be able to actually start "running" the game right now, but I can at least practice some of these strategies. I will be more active in practicing after my Mickey run is done (hopefully). If that doesn't work out all that well at the moment, then I will do all I can to improve this time. This is the game I most want to run, anyway. Everyone has given a lot of good information and we now know what we can do, for the most part, to get this time down lower.

I have an idea: Could someone that is good at timing segments get the best estimate you can for each and post up here. I will do some myself, and we can compare and see who's more accurate.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-25 09:17:11 pm

2007-01-25 08:10:33 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

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Yes, you automatically get the save-point to the lost underworld the instant you drop down there. Plus, when you teleport back later, you will be a little north of the position you dropped from, saving precious travelling seconds.

Good to know, thanks ;D.

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There is an easily-grabbable Brain Food Lunch right by Poo's starting position in the Dalaam palace.

We will need that indefinately and I think he got it as well. We do not need to get the brain stone from the presents in the palace, do we?

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I believe that talking to the rock will completely revive and heal you, similar to visiting a sanctuary. The text is a bit long, though.

Yea, but we won't need it to recover ourselves because we just came from the 7th Sanctuary. Also, like Ampharos said, since teleport only uses 2 PP, Ness will have plenty left afterwards if we need him in the Fire Spring.

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Also, I can now confirm that nothing will protect you from Giygas's counter -- neither a PSI Shield or a reflective PSI Shield. Also, it appears that I was perhaps wrong -- it seems that Starstorm always hits Giygas before Pokey.

Shield Sigma might not protect us from Giygas's counter, but it would still be helpful, as I said, to protect us from Giygas's attacks. In turn, this will save us time in healing.

Quote:

Finally -- I learned this the hard way in my Paula-solo challenge. If someone receives mortal damage before defeating Pokey, they will immediately die after he turns off the devil's machine (unless the meter is still rolling, of course).

Yep, that has happened to me before; to several people actually... That is why we will not use Paula alone and make sure everyone survives as long as possible. If Jeff does die in the second phase, that won't hurt us at all since he can't help us as much without the heavy bazooka (sad to say). Plus, the Heavy Bazooka is pointless to get in a speedrun, anyway. Jeff will have already done his part to HAP before now so, we need to take the time to heal Paula and Poo when needed badly enough. Of course, since Giygas will still have the effects of brainstorm from the first form, he will not hit us very much.

[quote]Yes, you automatically get the save-point to the lost underworld the instant you drop down there.  Plus, when you teleport back later, you will be a little north of the position you dropped from, saving precious travelling seconds.[/quote]

Good to know, thanks ;D.

[quote]There is an easily-grabbable Brain Food Lunch right by Poo's starting position in the Dalaam palace.[/quote]

We will need that indefinately and I think he got it as well. We do not need to get the brain stone from the presents in the palace, do we?

[quote]I believe that talking to the rock will completely revive and heal you, similar to visiting a sanctuary.  The text is a bit long, though.[/quote]

Yea, but we won't need it to recover ourselves because we just came from the 7th Sanctuary. Also, like Ampharos said, since teleport only uses 2 PP, Ness will have plenty left afterwards if we need him in the Fire Spring.

[quote]Also, I can now confirm that nothing will protect you from Giygas's counter -- neither a PSI Shield or a reflective PSI Shield.  Also, it appears that I was perhaps wrong -- it seems that Starstorm always hits Giygas before Pokey.[/quote]

Shield Sigma might not protect us from Giygas's counter, but it would still be helpful, as I said, to protect us from Giygas's attacks. In turn, this will save us time in healing.

[quote]Finally -- I learned this the hard way in my Paula-solo challenge.  If someone receives mortal damage before defeating Pokey, they will immediately die after he turns off the devil's machine (unless the meter is still rolling, of course).[/quote]

Yep, that has happened to me before; to several people actually... That is why we will not use Paula alone and make sure everyone survives as long as possible. If Jeff does die in the second phase, that won't hurt us at all since he can't help us as much without the heavy bazooka (sad to say). Plus, the Heavy Bazooka is pointless to get in a speedrun, anyway. Jeff will have already done his part to HAP before now so, we need to take the time to heal Paula and Poo when needed badly enough. Of course, since Giygas will still have the effects of brainstorm from the first form, he will not hit us very much.

Amazing Ampharos

Edit history:

Amazing Ampharos: 2007-01-25 09:57:27 pm

2007-01-25 09:56:31 pm

Can you Brainshock Giygas during his actual first form? I thought he was literally invincible to everything while the Devil's Machine was up and that we'd have to wait until HAP died to Brainshock him(thus robbing a precious Starstorm turn). Of course, once the defenses drop, I don't think he'll hold up long to freeze and starstorm omegas with maybe a special gamma from Ness if the need presents itself. Of course, if we skip all pennants, we'd still probably be wise to give Paula the Night Pennant and the Franklin Badge(which should, IMO, stay with Ness until after Magnificant) since between those two she'll be pretty well safe from Giygas, and if this is a speedrun at all, more turns will be spent praying than killing his second form.

I see the fight going like this:

Before the fight, make sure Paula has the Night Pennant equipped and the Franklin Badge in her inventory. Ness should have the Legendary Bat equipped and his inventory stuffed with every PP healing item you have saved for this point. Jeff has his MBRs+Rabbit's Foot ready, and Poo needs nothing but can serve to hold all the random trash Ness might need to get rid of(like the Magnificant Bat which you cannot drop). During the first form, Poo maybe would do better with Super Bombs than with anything else he can do, but they're certainly not worth a trip to get.

If we do decide to get the Sea Pennant, Paula should have that while Poo would get the Night Pennant. At that point, it doesn't really matter if Ness or Jeff get knocked out of commission, but bad luck with Poo would hurt us dearly. Also, Ness is a god of a tank at this point so only an instant death from Flash is going to be knocking him out.

First form:

Ness uses Paralysis on HAP and then goes to using physical attacks on him. He does all needed healing to everyone, both HP and PP.

Paula throws down a PSI Shield Sigma to render Giygas's attacks ineffective and then starts going nuts with Freeze Omegas on HAP until he falls.

Jeff just launched MBRs at HAP without another thought.

Poo uses Freeze Gamma on HAP.

Second form:

Ness makes sure to use PP healing items so Paula and Poo can use their most powerful specials every turn. If he gets a free turn, he can either smash with the legendary bat or throw down a PSI special gamma, whichever has better math behind it.

Paula keeps up Freeze Omega to the end of her PP, which won't come if Ness does his job.

Jeff might try MBRs if he has any left(he shouldn't with good route planning) since odds should still put them better than his melee attack which will do near nothing. He might also be better just defending; his job is done.

Poo throws down Brainshock on turn one and then unleashed Starstorm Omega every turn. Ness attends to his PP.

Stage 3:

Nobody is healed if hurt except Paula or the feeling strange condition(Poo Starstorming the party would suck). Everyone but Paula defends while she does her 9 prayers.

Can you Brainshock Giygas during his actual first form?  I thought he was literally invincible to everything while the Devil's Machine was up and that we'd have to wait until HAP died to Brainshock him(thus robbing a precious Starstorm turn).  Of course, once the defenses drop, I don't think he'll hold up long to freeze and starstorm omegas with maybe a special gamma from Ness if the need presents itself.  Of course, if we skip all pennants, we'd still probably be wise to give Paula the Night Pennant and the Franklin Badge(which should, IMO, stay with Ness until after Magnificant) since between those two she'll be pretty well safe from Giygas, and if this is a speedrun at all, more turns will be spent praying than killing his second form.

I see the fight going like this:

Before the fight, make sure Paula has the Night Pennant equipped and the Franklin Badge in her inventory.  Ness should have the Legendary Bat equipped and his inventory stuffed with every PP healing item you have saved for this point.  Jeff has his MBRs+Rabbit's Foot ready, and Poo needs nothing but can serve to hold all the random trash Ness might need to get rid of(like the Magnificant Bat which you cannot drop).  During the first form, Poo maybe would do better with Super Bombs than with anything else he can do, but they're certainly not worth a trip to get.

If we do decide to get the Sea Pennant, Paula should have that while Poo would get the Night Pennant.  At that point, it doesn't really matter if Ness or Jeff get knocked out of commission, but bad luck with Poo would hurt us dearly.  Also, Ness is a god of a tank at this point so only an instant death from Flash is going to be knocking him out.

First form:

Ness uses Paralysis on HAP and then goes to using physical attacks on him.  He does all needed healing to everyone, both HP and PP.

Paula throws down a PSI Shield Sigma to render Giygas's attacks ineffective and then starts going nuts with Freeze Omegas on HAP until he falls.

Jeff just launched MBRs at HAP without another thought.

Poo uses Freeze Gamma on HAP.

Second form:

Ness makes sure to use PP healing items so Paula and Poo can use their most powerful specials every turn.  If he gets a free turn, he can either smash with the legendary bat or throw down a PSI special gamma, whichever has better math behind it.

Paula keeps up Freeze Omega to the end of her PP, which won't come if Ness does his job.

Jeff might try MBRs if he has any left(he shouldn't with good route planning) since odds should still put them better than his melee attack which will do near nothing.  He might also be better just defending; his job is done.

Poo throws down Brainshock on turn one and then unleashed Starstorm Omega every turn.  Ness attends to his PP.

Stage 3:

Nobody is healed if hurt except Paula or the feeling strange condition(Poo Starstorming the party would suck).  Everyone but Paula defends while she does her 9 prayers.

Emptyeye

2007-01-25 10:50:56 pm

Talk to the Hand

Quote:

Ironically, the stategy guide says that the Krakens in Magicant are the ones that drop the Gutsy bat.

This must be where I got the idea from. Incidentally, it partially explains why I never got one to drop. Cheesy

Mickey_Mage

2007-01-26 12:07:14 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Well, with Giygas feeling strange since the brainshock in his second form, he won't be able to really hit us a whole lot, just himself. Trust me, if we try to get enough luck with Giygas, he will practically not touch us at all this whole battle.

I actually forgot, you can't use brainshock on Giygas in the first form :(. I forgot mainly since I have never tested it, but it makes sense because of the devil's machine.

That is a really good, and most reasonable plan we can use. The second form will be really random because if Giygas does get a chance to hit the party with his attack, we have no idea what it will do to who he hits. Should Ness get all of the PP healing items, or can Jeff have some too so Ness can help out with the bombardment of PSI attacks? Especially since Poo uses 42 PP per Starstorm Omega (and we would have already used freeze in the first form).

Amazing Ampharos

2007-01-26 12:33:37 am

Hmm, yeah, Jeff and Ness could both do it. Actually, Jeff would be better since Ness can make better use of his turns otherwise with the Legendary Bat or PSI Special Gamma or healing HP/dangerous status. I imagine that you'll just have to use the Brain Food Lunch on Poo and that would be it for healing, but maybea magic truffle might be needed. It all really depends on what levels the characters have going into it.

Yeah, the Giygas fight will always be luck, but the odds of gettings screwed into a loss aren't particularly big with this sort of strategy. The Cave of the Past is a nasty place, but it's small at least so it's not like you have too much to do if fortune turns against you.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-26 01:20:12 am

2007-01-26 01:14:52 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

We pretty much can't lose a Giygas battle at all, even if we do get screwed over at least once. If we do mess up, we will restart; even if we wouldn't have died. I'm not saying the whole Giygas battle has to be flawless, he just isn't that hard of a final boss (still fun to kill, though).

I had to think between those two strategies. My original thought was to give the PP healing items to both Ness and Jeff but it just makes more sense for Jeff to do it since he won't have anymore to do for us with no MBR's. We just need a backup healing item, but for the most part, I think the Brain Food lunch will be enough, for now.

Edit: I remember when I got more used to the game, that getting through the Past without fighting straight battles is actually not that hard (except for maybe the very beginning). After that, though, we can go from one enemy to the next ambushing each one. Maybe fighting two straight battles along the way to let us get the few seconds of "invisibility" we need to continue. I do recall going throug the Past one time only fighting one battle.

We pretty much can't lose a Giygas battle at all, even if we do get screwed over at least once. If we do mess up, we will restart; even if we wouldn't have died. I'm not saying the whole Giygas battle has to be flawless, he just isn't that hard of a final boss (still fun to kill, though).

I had to think between those two strategies. My original thought was to give the PP healing items to both Ness and Jeff but it just makes more sense for Jeff to do it since he won't have anymore to do for us with no MBR's. We just need a backup healing item, but for the most part, I think the Brain Food lunch will be enough, for now.

Edit: I remember when I got more used to the game, that getting through the Past without fighting straight battles is actually not that hard (except for maybe the very beginning). After that, though, we can go from one enemy to the next ambushing each one. Maybe fighting two straight battles along the way to let us get the few seconds of "invisibility" we need to continue. I do recall going throug the Past one time only fighting [b]one[/b] battle.

Amazing Ampharos

2007-01-26 01:22:34 am

When I said lose, I meant waste time mandating a restart. I mean, since when has any game you want to speedrun really threatened you with losing the game? The thing you lose to is the clock.

Ness might do well to carry at least a Magic Truffle since with this strategy Jeff is being left completely exposed, and if he takes a mortal blow, it would be most time efficient to just let him die.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-26 01:45:36 am

2007-01-26 01:44:47 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Quote:

When I said lose, I meant waste time mandating a restart. I mean, since when has any game you want to speedrun really threatened you with losing the game? The thing you lose to is the clock.

Yea, you're right. Sorry about that. I've never even done speedrun of a game until the Mickey one I'm working on now (though, it is single segment). As long as the rest of the run looks more put together, then we won't have to worry about losing a few seconds to Giygas. Forget what I said about all that before.

Quote:

Ness might do well to carry at least a Magic Truffle since with this strategy Jeff is being left completely exposed, and if he takes a mortal blow, it would be most time efficient to just let him die.

So, we will use Jeff's Brain Food lunch first before he dies, hopefully, so this won't happen, right? I think that would be best since Magic truffles I think recover more PP even to Poo.

Amazing Ampharos

2007-01-26 03:29:23 am

A Brain Food Lunch eaten by Poo would restore all HP and PP, would it not? I know a Magic Truffle heals 80 PP.

Mickey_Mage

2007-01-26 03:41:26 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Quote:

A Brain Food Lunch eaten by Poo would restore all HP and PP, would it not? I know a Magic Truffle heals 80 PP.

Yea, whoops. Wow, I've been out of this game too long :P. I'm still good though, just forget some items at times since I never really used them in my casual plays. Thank goodness for strategy guides ;D.

Floogal

2007-01-26 03:43:53 am

First of all, I would strongly recommend you visit here for enemy stats: http://starmen.net/mother2/ebdb/

I've done some more testing. According to the site I linked to, all forms of Giygas are practically guaranteed to feel strange after being hit by Brainshock.

If Giygas's first form is feeling strange, then he might hurt Pokey and himself, which will still reflect onto one character. Better than all four being hit, though. Of course, don't waste time using both PSI Shield Sigma and Brainshock.

Some bad stuff though: if Giygas is feeling strange, he will return to normal after each of the following events:
1) defeating pokey (his first speech)
2) doing enough damage to giygas's second phase (pokey's second speech)
3) after Paula prays for the first time (Giygas's defences become unstable).
4) He is hit with a physical attack (may not always happen) (more reason why Jeff is useless after the first phase).

Personally, I think you should just go completely offensive in the first phase of the battle. Jeff's MBR, Poo's Starstorm Omega, and Paula's Freeze Omega should be able to defeat Pokey in a single round. If Ness knows Lifeup Omega, then he should use that, which will hopefully be performed after the faster Poo's Starstorm to recover the mortally wounded character. Otherwise, have Ness Lifeup Poo to make sure he doesn't die. Giygas's Rockin' really isn't that dangerous, as you'll only be encountering it once.

Second phase, revive one or two characters if necessary (Pokey might have got off an attack the first round). Poo should Brainshock first (which should always work), and then let loose everyone's most powerful attacks. Don't bother using (or reviving) Jeff -- perhaps he should have a Brain Food Lunch (with a salt packet??) to recover Poo's PP, as only three Starstorm Omegas are needed (hopefully) to get to the next round. Of course cure feeling strange, but nothing else.

During the final phase, just have everyone defend while Paula prays. Giygas basically uses Lightning, Freeze, and Flash during this phase. Once again, with the Sea Pendant and Franklin Badge, Paula can't be defeated (Freeze only does about 10 damage), so there is no need for anyone else to do anything (such as healing/reviving others). Don't worry if someone is feeling strange here, as nothing bad will happen if they aren't doing anything. The only snag could be Paula being frozen by Giygas's attack, which really won't waste much time. Maybe having Poo brainshock after Paula's first prayer would help...

First of all, I would strongly recommend you visit here for enemy stats: http://starmen.net/mother2/ebdb/

I've done some more testing.  According to the site I linked to, all forms of Giygas are practically guaranteed to feel strange after being hit by Brainshock.

If Giygas's first form is feeling strange, then he might hurt Pokey and himself, which will still reflect onto one character.  Better than all four being hit, though.  Of course, don't waste time using both PSI Shield Sigma and Brainshock.

Some bad stuff though:  if Giygas is feeling strange, he will return to normal after each of the following events:
1) defeating pokey (his first speech)
2) doing enough damage to giygas's second phase (pokey's second speech)
3) after Paula prays for the first time (Giygas's defences become unstable).
4) He is hit with a physical attack (may not always happen) (more reason why Jeff is useless after the first phase).

Personally, I think you should just go completely offensive in the first phase of the battle.  Jeff's MBR, Poo's Starstorm Omega, and Paula's Freeze Omega should be able to defeat Pokey in a single round.  If Ness knows Lifeup Omega, then he should use that, which will hopefully be performed after the faster Poo's Starstorm to recover the mortally wounded character.  Otherwise, have Ness Lifeup Poo to make sure he doesn't die.  Giygas's Rockin' really isn't that dangerous, as you'll only be encountering it once.

Second phase, revive one or two characters if necessary (Pokey might have got off an attack the first round).  Poo should Brainshock first (which should always work), and then let loose everyone's most powerful attacks.  Don't bother using (or reviving) Jeff -- perhaps he should have a Brain Food Lunch (with a salt packet??) to recover Poo's PP, as only three Starstorm Omegas are needed (hopefully) to get to the next round.  Of course cure feeling strange, but nothing else.

During the final phase, just have everyone defend while Paula prays.  Giygas basically uses Lightning, Freeze, and Flash during this phase.  Once again, with the Sea Pendant and Franklin Badge, Paula can't be defeated (Freeze only does about 10 damage), so there is no need for anyone else to do anything (such as healing/reviving others).  Don't worry if someone is feeling strange here, as nothing bad will happen if they aren't doing anything.  The only snag could be Paula being frozen by Giygas's attack, which really won't waste much time.  Maybe having Poo brainshock after Paula's first prayer would help...

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-26 06:04:07 am

2007-01-26 05:33:30 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Quote:

First of all, I would strongly recommend you visit here for enemy stats: http://starmen.net/mother2/ebdb/

Except for Pokey and Giygas and a few other enemies that we might never fight, almost all enemies' stats are already given in the Strategy guide, so no need for me. Smiley

It isn't the big things I need Starmen.net for, just a few of the small things that aren't in the guide, is all. The stats info that someone gave awhile back like what Guts do in certain situations and things like that, was very helpful and I'm sure came from the site. Trust me, I'm not saying I will never use it, though. I just do not think I will need it a whole lot unless there is something I truly do not know. Playing this game as long as I have has really helped, trust me.

Quote:

I've done some more testing. According to the site I linked to, all forms of Giygas are practically guaranteed to feel strange after being hit by Brainshock.

Well, getting him to feel strange in the first form has actually turned out to be a bad idea now that I think about it. If I remember correctly, I have rarely gotten him to go out of feeling strange after using brainshock in the second stage. If he does do it like you say, a little bit down this post, when changing phases, we really won't have to worry anyway. We just need to keep Paula ~~and Poo alive (in case someone dies we need)~~ alive in the third form with Ness.

Quote:

If Giygas's first form is feeling strange, then he might hurt Pokey and himself, which will still reflect onto one character. Better than all four being hit, though. Of course, don't waste time using both PSI Shield Sigma and Brainshock.

If the attack is reflected back at us, I thought it would hit all four people? Pokey will be Paralyzed so, there is nothing he can do to us; and the shield will protect us from Giygas's attacks. We just need to wait to brainshock Giygas until later.

Quote:

Some bad stuff though: if Giygas is feeling strange, he will return to normal after each of the following events:
1) defeating pokey (his first speech)
2) doing enough damage to giygas's second phase (pokey's second speech)
3) after Paula prays for the first time (Giygas's defences become unstable).
4) He is hit with a physical attack (may not always happen) (more reason why Jeff is useless after the first phase).

1. Let's just not use brainshock in that first form
2. Ok
3. Does it? I don't normally notice while fighting him.
4. Like you said, we really won't need to do that except for the first stage to HAP

Quote:

Personally, I think you should just go completely offensive in the first phase of the battle. Jeff's MBR, Poo's Starstorm Omega, and Paula's Freeze Omega should be able to defeat Pokey in a single round. If Ness knows Lifeup Omega, then he should use that, which will hopefully be performed after the faster Poo's Starstorm to recover the mortally wounded character. Otherwise, have Ness Lifeup Poo to make sure he doesn't die. Giygas's Rockin' really isn't that dangerous, as you'll only be encountering it once.

No Starstorm because we want as minimal damage as possible to our people in the first phase. Jeff will have the Rabbit's Foot on, and Poo and Paula's Freeze attacks will be enough. I seriously doubt one barrage of a MBR, Starstorm, and Freeze will kill HAP with our kind of luck. Roll Eyes

Three MBR's and freeze will do nicely, unless MBRs take more than we think with the Rabbits foot on. We will not take the time to get Lifeup Omega so, that is why we cannot get too many people fatally damaged. I think we can beat Giygas on a lower level than evil_ninja was, seriously.

Quote:

Second phase, revive one or two characters if necessary (Pokey might have got off an attack the first round). Poo should Brainshock first (which should always work), and then let loose everyone's most powerful attacks. Don't bother using (or reviving) Jeff -- perhaps he should have a Brain Food Lunch (with a salt packet??) to recover Poo's PP, as only three Starstorm Omegas are needed (hopefully) to get to the next round. Of course cure feeling strange, but nothing else.

We need Jeff alive at least until he uses the brain food lunch on Poo after his Starstorm Omega attacks. We are going to prevent any major damage in the first phase as it would waste time healing. That is why we are getting the Rabbit's Foot, in the first place, to take more damage with MBR's from HAP, along with Freeze attacks. We will not be able to have the same amount of luck that the TAS did in these battles so, taking a huge amount of damage with every attack will not happen. Killing the second form of Giygas with three Starstorms does not seem possible to me, at all. That is why we need Paula to use Freeze and Ness to use his Special Gamma.

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During the final phase, just have everyone defend while Paula prays.

Yep, that was the plan anyway.

Quote:

Giygas basically uses Lightning, Freeze, and Flash during this phase. Once again, with the Sea Pendant and Franklin Badge, Paula can't be defeated (Freeze only does about 10 damage), so there is no need for anyone else to do anything (such as healing/reviving others). Don't worry if someone is feeling strange here, as nothing bad will happen if they aren't doing anything. The only snag could be Paula being frozen by Giygas's attack, which really won't waste much time. Maybe having Poo brainshock after Paula's first prayer would help...

True, we only really need Ness and Paula alive for this. Depends on if anybody dies before now but using brainshock one more time won't hurt, though. This will eliminate any attacks on the group, especially Paula. If someone is feeling strange, and it is Ness, he cannot heal Paula until he heals himself or is hit. If Poo is alive, we can heal.

Edit: Can we please stop arguing about this one thing in the game and move on? This bickering is getting us nowhere. We really need to start getting together a better route and time the segments to give us a starting point. We will worry about the Giygas battle when we get there, and test stuff at or around that point.

[quote]First of all, I would strongly recommend you visit here for enemy stats: http://starmen.net/mother2/ebdb/[/quote]

Except for Pokey and Giygas and a few other enemies that we might never fight, almost all enemies' stats are already given in the Strategy guide, so no need for me. :) It isn't the big things I need Starmen.net for, just a few of the small things that aren't in the guide, is all. The stats info that someone gave awhile back like what Guts do in certain situations and things like that, was very helpful and I'm sure came from the site. Trust me, I'm not saying I will never use it, though. I just do not think I will need it a whole lot unless there is something I truly do not know. Playing this game as long as I have has really helped, trust me.

[quote]I've done some more testing.  According to the site I linked to, all forms of Giygas are practically guaranteed to feel strange after being hit by Brainshock.[/quote]

Well, getting him to feel strange in the first form has actually turned out to be a bad idea now that I think about it. If I remember correctly, I have rarely gotten him to go out of feeling strange after using brainshock in the second stage. If he does do it like you say, a little bit down this post, when changing phases, we really won't have to worry anyway. We just need to keep Paula [s]and Poo alive (in case someone dies we need)[/s] alive in the third form with Ness.

[quote]If Giygas's first form is feeling strange, then he might hurt Pokey and himself, which will still reflect onto one character.  Better than all four being hit, though.  Of course, don't waste time using both PSI Shield Sigma and Brainshock.[/quote]

If the attack is reflected back at us, I thought it would hit all four people? Pokey will be Paralyzed so, there is nothing he can do to us; and the shield will protect us from Giygas's attacks. We just need to wait to brainshock Giygas until later.

[quote]Some bad stuff though:  if Giygas is feeling strange, he will return to normal after each of the following events:
1) defeating pokey (his first speech)
2) doing enough damage to giygas's second phase (pokey's second speech)
3) after Paula prays for the first time (Giygas's defences become unstable).
4) He is hit with a physical attack (may not always happen) (more reason why Jeff is useless after the first phase).[/quote]

1. Let's just not use brainshock in that first form
2. Ok
3. Does it? I don't normally notice while fighting him. 
4. Like you said, we really won't need to do that except for the first stage to HAP

[quote]Personally, I think you should just go completely offensive in the first phase of the battle.  Jeff's MBR, Poo's Starstorm Omega, and Paula's Freeze Omega should be able to defeat Pokey in a single round.  If Ness knows Lifeup Omega, then he should use that, which will hopefully be performed after the faster Poo's Starstorm to recover the mortally wounded character.  Otherwise, have Ness Lifeup Poo to make sure he doesn't die.  Giygas's Rockin' really isn't that dangerous, as you'll only be encountering it once.[/quote]

No Starstorm because we want as minimal damage as possible to our people in the first phase. Jeff will have the Rabbit's Foot on, and Poo and Paula's Freeze attacks will be enough. I seriously doubt one barrage of a MBR, Starstorm, and Freeze will kill HAP with our kind of luck. ::) Three MBR's and freeze will do nicely, unless MBRs take more than we think with the Rabbits foot on. We will not take the time to get Lifeup Omega so, that is why we cannot get too many people fatally damaged. I think we can beat Giygas on a lower level than evil_ninja was, seriously.

[quote]Second phase, revive one or two characters if necessary (Pokey might have got off an attack the first round).  Poo should Brainshock first (which should always work), and then let loose everyone's most powerful attacks.  Don't bother using (or reviving) Jeff -- perhaps he should have a Brain Food Lunch (with a salt packet??) to recover Poo's PP, as only three Starstorm Omegas are needed (hopefully) to get to the next round.  Of course cure feeling strange, but nothing else.[/quote]

We need Jeff alive at least until he uses the brain food lunch on Poo after his Starstorm Omega attacks. [b]We are going to prevent any major damage in the first phase as it would waste time healing. [/b] That is why we are getting the Rabbit's Foot, in the first place, to take more damage with MBR's from HAP, along with Freeze attacks. We will not be able to have the same amount of luck that the TAS did in these battles so, taking a huge amount of damage with every attack will not happen. Killing the second form of Giygas with three Starstorms does not seem possible to me, at all. That is why we need Paula to use Freeze and Ness to use his Special Gamma.

[quote]During the final phase, just have everyone defend while Paula prays.[/quote]

Yep, that was the plan anyway.

[quote]Giygas basically uses Lightning, Freeze, and Flash during this phase.  Once again, with the Sea Pendant and Franklin Badge, Paula can't be defeated (Freeze only does about 10 damage), so there is no need for anyone else to do anything (such as healing/reviving others).  Don't worry if someone is feeling strange here, as nothing bad will happen if they aren't doing anything.  The only snag could be Paula being frozen by Giygas's attack, which really won't waste much time.  Maybe having Poo brainshock after Paula's first prayer would help...[/quote]

True, we only really need Ness and Paula alive for this. Depends on if anybody dies before now but using brainshock one more time won't hurt, though. This will eliminate any attacks on the group, especially Paula. If someone is feeling strange, and it is Ness, he cannot heal Paula until he heals himself or is hit. If Poo is alive, we can heal.

Edit: [b]Can we please stop arguing about this one thing in the game and move on?[/b] This bickering is getting us nowhere. We really need to start getting together a better route and time the segments to give us a starting point. We will worry about the Giygas battle when we get there, and test stuff at or around that point.

Floogal

2007-01-26 08:49:43 am

I'm sorry, I know you want to discuss other things, but...

3 MBR's?!? Let's do some math now...

My level 99 Jeff has a speed of 51. So lets say a level 50 Jeff has a speed of 25 (the level used in the current speedrun). Add on the Rabbit's Foot, and Jeff has a speed of 65.

Pokey's speed is 60. So using the formula, Pokey's ability to dodge a normal Bottle Rocket (which does an average of 120 damage) is (2x60 - 65) = 55%.

A MBR fires off 20 bottle rockets. Since each one only has 45% accuracy, expect an average damage of 1080. HAP has only 2000 HP.

Poo's Starstorm Omega does between 540 and 900 damage (average -- 720). Due to Pokey's resistance, PSI Freeze Omega does between 270 and 450 (average -- 360) damage.

So we've got 1080 + 720 + 360 = 2160, which will kill off Pokey.

So you can see that you only need "average" luck. Even if you use your strategy, Pokey should be downed in two MBR's. Any less, and we should restart. I mean, we're talking about Flashing Kracken. Unless Cave of the Past is so difficult to speed through that we're willing to accept horrible luck in the final battle....

TAS luck would be getting 17 of the 20 rockets to hit Pokey to OHKO him. In fact, that may be beyond TAS luck.

Also, if you hit Giygas with Starstorm (or any attack), only one person gets hit. Thankfully.

Giygas's second form only needs 2000 damage. Thanks to his speed of 80, MBR's only have a 5% chance of hitting, so expect a whopping 120 damage. Still, Starstorm and Freeze do the same damage that they did to Pokey. Two of each will most likely move you on to the praying stage.

...whew!!

Now that I've got that out of my system, feel free to not comment and move on to other concerns.

Here is something else I've considered:

It's pretty obvious that you must clear the 2nd sanctuary right after getting Paula due to the backtracking involved (why didn't the programmers allow Happy Happy Village as a teleport point?!?).

But the third sanctuary...

You can easily teleport back Saturn Valley later. If you bring an Exit Mouse and have Poo, then teleporting out afterwards is pretty simple, too. Coming back late in the game should make it quite easy to clear, plus Poo will get (a very small amount of) extra experience. Finding a Criminal Caterpillar in the desert should make up the lost experience from skipping the sanctuary for later.

Meh. It doesn't seem like it could save that much time....

I'm sorry, I know you want to discuss other things, but...

3 MBR's?!?  Let's do some math now...

My level 99 Jeff has a speed of 51.  So lets say a level 50 Jeff has a speed of 25 (the level used in the current speedrun).  Add on the Rabbit's Foot, and Jeff has a speed of 65.

Pokey's speed is 60.  So using the formula, Pokey's ability to dodge a normal Bottle Rocket (which does an average of 120 damage) is (2x60 - 65) = 55%.

A MBR fires off 20 bottle rockets.  Since each one only has 45% accuracy, expect an average damage of 1080.  HAP has only 2000 HP.

Poo's Starstorm Omega does between 540 and 900 damage (average -- 720).  Due to Pokey's resistance, PSI Freeze Omega does between 270 and 450 (average -- 360) damage.

So we've got 1080 + 720 + 360 = 2160, which will kill off Pokey.

So you can see that you only need "average" luck.  Even if you use your strategy, Pokey should be downed in two MBR's.  Any less, and we should restart.  I mean, we're talking about Flashing Kracken.  Unless Cave of the Past is so difficult to speed through that we're willing to accept horrible luck in the final battle....

TAS luck would be getting 17 of the 20 rockets to hit Pokey to OHKO him.  In fact, that may be beyond TAS luck.

Also, if you hit Giygas with Starstorm (or any attack), only one person gets hit.  Thankfully.

Giygas's second form only needs 2000 damage.  Thanks to his speed of 80, MBR's only have a 5% chance of hitting, so expect a whopping 120 damage.  Still, Starstorm and Freeze do the same damage that they did to Pokey.  Two of each will most likely move you on to the praying stage.

...whew!!

Now that I've got that out of my system, feel free to not comment and move on to other concerns.

Here is something else I've considered:

It's pretty obvious that you must clear the 2nd sanctuary right after getting Paula due to the backtracking involved (why didn't the programmers allow Happy Happy Village as a teleport point?!?).

But the third sanctuary...

You can easily teleport back Saturn Valley later.  If you bring an Exit Mouse and have Poo, then teleporting out afterwards is pretty simple, too.  Coming back late in the game should make it quite easy to clear, plus Poo will get (a very small amount of) extra experience.  Finding a Criminal Caterpillar in the desert should make up the lost experience from skipping the sanctuary for later.

Meh.  It doesn't seem like it could save that much time....

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-26 05:13:42 pm

2007-01-26 02:30:25 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

OK!! So I underestimated the power of the Rabbit's Foot. Sorry I even brought it up. I didn't think we'd need 3 MBR's, no idea why I said that.

We can't skip really any early Sanctuaries or we will be in trouble later. True the criminal caterpillar's experience will make up for it, but we shouldn't have to fight more than three since it takes so much luck to find one and we only save three times in the desert, total... I do recall the TAS skipping SHROOM!, and then fighting him coming back to Stonehenge, but us doing that would make us lose some valuable experience. We just need whatever we can get to get Flash Beta before PROD so, we can skip T&S until after we fight Electro Spector (maybe). This would seem to benefit us more than skipping Trillionage Sprout much earlier on in the story.

Darkwing Duck

2007-01-26 10:50:24 pm

Highly Evolved

I saw the Lumine Hall segment before you two posted about it, and I thought it was absolutely horrific decision to fight an uncontrollable sphere.

Can you run from Care Free Bombs? I always hated those things.

Mickey_Mage

2007-01-26 11:38:27 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

We can just avoid Uncontrollable Spheres or other harder enemies. In Lumine hall, the only things we want to fight are Foppies. Lumine wasn't as bad as I thought other than the Uncrontrollable Sphere battle he had. The Past was much worse than Lumine hall because in such a small area, it is really easy to get an ambush on lots of enemies.

Run away from, or outrun the Carefree Bombs? Tongue

Carefree Bombs are not any different than other enemies. There is always a dice throw to whether you can run away from an enemy or not. If the enemy ambushes you, then you have low chances. If it is a straight battle (grey screen), then you have a little better of a chance but not many. I have found that if an enemy does something other than attack you it is easier to runaway from the fight. When you ambush an enemy (green screen) you can always run away (as far as I know). The Carefree Bombs pretty much attack constantly, so trying to run in a straight battle would be suicide. This is mainly because if he throws a super bomb, it takes a huge amounts of damage Floogal, is there some sort of equation when running away from enemies, or is it really a dicethrow each time you hit "run away"?

We can just avoid Uncontrollable Spheres or other harder enemies. In Lumine hall, the only things we want to fight are Foppies. Lumine wasn't as bad as I thought other than the Uncrontrollable Sphere battle he had. The Past was much worse than Lumine hall because in such a small area, it is really easy to get an ambush on lots of enemies.

Run away from, or outrun the Carefree Bombs? :P Carefree Bombs are not any different than other enemies. There is always a dice throw to whether you can run away from an enemy or not. If the enemy ambushes you, then you have low chances. If it is a straight battle (grey screen), then you have a little better of a chance but not many. I have found that if an enemy does something other than attack you it is easier to runaway from the fight. When you ambush an enemy (green screen) you can always run away (as far as I know). The Carefree Bombs pretty much attack constantly, so trying to run in a straight battle would be suicide. This is mainly because if he throws a super bomb, it takes a huge amounts of damage [b]Floogal, is there some sort of equation when running away from enemies, or is it really a dicethrow each time you hit "run away"?[/b]

Nitrodon

2007-01-27 12:12:48 am

The probability of running successfully is ((highest speed among PCs) - (highest speed among enemies) + 10*(turn number))%. The following additional conditions apply:

* If you ambush the enemy, you will always be able to run on the first turn.

* Certain enemies are impossible to run from (mostly bosses).

* Characters (on either side) who are dead, diamondized, paralyzed, asleep, immobilized, or some other status I haven't determined yet are not counted in the above formula. If every enemy has one of these statuses, you will always be able to run.

Amazing Ampharos

2007-01-27 02:04:09 am

^ You mean getting Flash Beta before the Kracken, not before the PROD. PROD is a potential part of the EXP used to get Flash Beta early. If we somehow were able to get Flash Beta before PROD, we'd push him back until Multi-Bottle Rockets as well(but I don't think that will happen since EXP is stretched thin enough as is).

We should get a route working. I wish I actually owned this game still so I could do something productive in testing waters, but since I don't and the route bends so much around the "what ifs" of EXP, someone else would have to try it with all our suggested improvements.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-27 04:41:01 am

2007-01-27 03:31:55 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Yea, before Kraken. What I mean is, if we are close to getting after killing PROD, or we do get lucky enough to get it when we kill PROD (won't happen probably).

I will start doing a route soon when I have time. Ampharos, it probably will not be the same, but some things you could do I guess on the Earthbound rom for the SNESx or something? Just a suggestion, but I will do what I can with the route.

Edit: And thank you for that, Nitrodon. That was very helpful.

Floogal

2007-01-27 04:08:45 am

Just a note: don't ask me about game-mechanics questions (well, you can if you want).

Nitrodon and his TAS partner were the ones who ripped apart the ROM, not me. I only know what I found from that post of his I linked to a few pages back.

Nitrodon, is there a place online where we can see the rest of your TAS research notes?

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2007-01-27 05:26:31 am

2007-01-27 05:12:36 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Just a little start to the new segments.

Not a whole lot needs to be changed, but here is a basic new Segment 1:

Get cracked bat as usual
Get Pokey, but not King
Fight one dog on the way (Ness Level 2)
Fight Starman Jr. (Ness Level 3)
Pickey & Pokey's Parents
Conversation with Buzz Buzz
Get baseball cap
Buy Tee Ball bat and hamburgers
Save at inn (not the store)

I did not find it all that hard to get to the meteorite without King, so we do not need him. I think getting the bread roll will help us so we do not have to waste a hamburger before Frank. I actually like the idea of using the Breadroll at the very least before going in to fight frank. Also, should we buy less hamburgers and rely on the Sharks dropping one or two since, we need at least one more level before fighting Frank?

Segment 2: (New)
Fight just the Sharks inside the arcade
Fight Frank
Fight Frankystein
Go to Mayor for key
Save at Store

Saves time buying items in the first segment and saving at the inn will let us luck abuse a lot closer to the arcade. I will see if I can get maybe two hamburgers on the way to Frank.

Some of these segments will be hypothetical as I do not have the time, at the moment, to go through all of the game, yet. If anybody has anything to add, feel free. I have never done a route for a speedrun before, so help would be nice.

Just a little start to the new segments.

Not a whole lot needs to be changed, but here is a basic new [b]Segment 1:[/b]

Get cracked bat as usual
Get Pokey, but not King 
Fight one dog on the way (Ness Level 2)
Fight Starman Jr. (Ness Level 3)
Pickey & Pokey's Parents
Conversation with Buzz Buzz
Get baseball cap
Buy Tee Ball bat and hamburgers
Save at inn (not the store)

I did not find it all that hard to get to the meteorite without King, so we do not need him. I think getting the bread roll will help us so we do not have to waste a hamburger before Frank. I actually like the idea of using the Breadroll at the very least before going in to fight frank. Also, should we buy less hamburgers and rely on the Sharks dropping one or two since, we need at least one more level before fighting Frank?

[b]Segment 2: (New)[/b]
Fight just the Sharks inside the arcade
Fight Frank
Fight Frankystein
Go to Mayor for key
Save at Store

Saves time buying items in the first segment and saving at the inn will let us luck abuse a lot closer to the arcade. I will see if I can get maybe two hamburgers on the way to Frank.

Some of these segments will be hypothetical as I do not have the time, at the moment, to go through all of the game, yet. If anybody has anything to add, feel free. I have never done a route for a speedrun before, so help would be nice.

Floogal

Edit history:

Floogal: 2007-01-27 06:35:40 am

2007-01-27 06:34:37 am

First of all, you know that rapidly pressing A during battle speeds up the text, right?

Also, this isn't too clear -- is your first segment from the very beginning of the game? It shouldn't be. Save right before you leave the house with Pokey (you'll be forced to answer the phone anyways). That way, you don't have to re-watch the whole opening if there are too many crows/snakes in your way. Also, viewers will be able to avoid downloading pointless cutscenes.

Also, I wouldn't bother fighting a Runaway Dog. Being a level lower for Starman Jr. won't make a difference. You will be a level lower for the first forced Shark fight (a Pogo Punk, I believe), but it shouldn't be a problem. Ness will still be at level 3 for the next forced shark (Yes Man Jr.) and level 4 for Frank.

Now, is it worthwhile to do some extra levelling before Frank? He is quite tough at level 4. However, you'd need to fight 4-5 extra sharks to get to level 5, and level 5 won't be a big boost (since it's the level after a multiple of four). When it comes to gaining experience for Titanic Ant and the Onett Police Force, Attack Slugs in Giant Step are much more efficient.

Note that if you do decide to fight Sharks, Pogo Punks have a 100% probability of dropping Hamburgers, so go after them (they also drop the most experience). Of course, since Skate Punks can summon others, it may be a faster way to fight more....

Check out this page for level planning: http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/eb/experience.shtml

EDIT:
Remember to heal at Frank after fighting him.

First of all, you know that rapidly pressing A during battle speeds up the text, right?

Also, this isn't too clear -- is your first segment from the very beginning of the game?  It shouldn't be.  Save right before you leave the house with Pokey (you'll be forced to answer the phone anyways).  That way, you don't have to re-watch the whole opening if there are too many crows/snakes in your way.  Also, viewers will be able to avoid downloading pointless cutscenes.

Also, I wouldn't bother fighting a Runaway Dog.  Being a level lower for Starman Jr. won't make a difference.  You will be a level lower for the first forced Shark fight (a Pogo Punk, I believe), but it shouldn't be a problem.  Ness will still be at level 3 for the next forced shark (Yes Man Jr.) and level 4 for Frank.

Now, is it worthwhile to do some extra levelling before Frank?  He is quite tough at level 4.  However, you'd need to fight 4-5 extra sharks to get to level 5, and level 5 won't be a big boost (since it's the level after a multiple of four).  When it comes to gaining experience for Titanic Ant and the Onett Police Force, Attack Slugs in Giant Step are much more efficient.

Note that if you do decide to fight Sharks, Pogo Punks have a 100% probability of dropping Hamburgers, so go after them (they also drop the most experience).  Of course, since Skate Punks can summon others, it may be a faster way to fight more....

Check out this page for level planning: http://www.rpgclassics.com/shrines/snes/eb/experience.shtml

EDIT:
Remember to heal at Frank after fighting him.

Amazing Ampharos

2007-01-27 07:13:48 am

You might want to check out the gamefaqs Battle/Enemy Guide by CyricZ as it lists all enemy stats and drops. From the sharks, you get 100% hamburgers from the Pogo Punk and a haxish 1/128 Pizza from the Skate Punk(be happy if you get it).

Attack Slugs drop 1/128 bombs. This is pretty remote, but if you do all your Onett leveling on these, you have to be ready to get one. If you beat 20 attack slugs, you have about a 14.5% chance of getting a bomb. It's not worth spending a lot of attempts on, especially if you get an otherwise great and fast run of the cave, but if you get one, be sure to drop it on the Titanic Ant for great justice as opposed to sitting there staring at the screen in awe that you just got a 1/128 drop.

All the cops have a 1/8 of giving you a Hamburger. This can help you pull through the battles at a low level with minimal preparation.

Peaceful Rest Valley has a lot of good but unlikely drops.

That Teddy Bear drop the runner got was 1/64. The more likely drop from the cave is the Crossaint from the Mole Playing Rough at 1/32.

A Criminal Caterpillar gives 30384 EXP upon defeat. For reference, the Trillionage Sprout gives 30303 EXP. Yeah, those caterpillars are WELL worth it.

The Master Criminal Worm in Scaraba gives 82570 EXP upon defeat. This is just a bit less than the bosses at that time are giving as well as more than generic enemies for the whole rest of the game(Final Starman only gives 61929), and bosses tend to be a level up for everyone. Be sure to fight one of these while heading through the desert.

Giygas's three attacks are thunder, freeze, and flash. That Flash is Flash Omega by the way. That means that with the Sea Pennant and Franklin Badge, Paula is 100% completely invincible to everything Giygas can do.

If you're fighting in the Cave of the Past, Wild n' Wooly Shamblers are your best bet since they have an astoundingly generous 1/16 Multi-Bottle Rocket drop.

I'd advise looking the drop charts over. You'll see that almost everything that would save time has really bad drop rates, but it at least lets you mentally prepare for taht golden luck when something really awesome happens. It also tells exactly how much EXP everything gives which is nice when combined with that EXP chart.

You might want to check out the gamefaqs Battle/Enemy Guide by CyricZ as it lists all enemy stats and drops.  From the sharks, you get 100% hamburgers from the Pogo Punk and a haxish 1/128 Pizza from the Skate Punk(be happy if you get it).

Attack Slugs drop 1/128 bombs.  This is pretty remote, but if you do all your Onett leveling on these, you have to be ready to get one.  If you beat 20 attack slugs, you have about a 14.5% chance of getting a bomb.  It's not worth spending a lot of attempts on, especially if you get an otherwise great and fast run of the cave, but if you get one, be sure to drop it on the Titanic Ant for great justice as opposed to sitting there staring at the screen in awe that you just got a 1/128 drop.

All the cops have a 1/8 of giving you a Hamburger.  This can help you pull through the battles at a low level with minimal preparation.

Peaceful Rest Valley has a lot of good but unlikely drops.

That Teddy Bear drop the runner got was 1/64.  The more likely drop from the cave is the Crossaint from the Mole Playing Rough at 1/32.

A Criminal Caterpillar gives 30384 EXP upon defeat.  For reference, the Trillionage Sprout gives 30303 EXP.  Yeah, those caterpillars are WELL worth it.

The Master Criminal Worm in Scaraba gives 82570 EXP upon defeat.  This is just a bit less than the bosses at that time are giving as well as more than generic enemies for the whole rest of the game(Final Starman only gives 61929), and bosses tend to be a level up for everyone.  Be sure to fight one of these while heading through the desert.

Giygas's three attacks are thunder, freeze, and flash.  That Flash is Flash Omega by the way.  That means that with the Sea Pennant and Franklin Badge, Paula is 100% completely invincible to everything Giygas can do.

If you're fighting in the Cave of the Past, Wild n' Wooly Shamblers are your best bet since they have an astoundingly generous 1/16 Multi-Bottle Rocket drop.

I'd advise looking the drop charts over.  You'll see that almost everything that would save time has really bad drop rates, but it at least lets you mentally prepare for taht golden luck when something really awesome happens.  It also tells exactly how much EXP everything gives which is nice when combined with that EXP chart.

Nitrodon

2007-01-27 10:48:57 am

Quote:

Nitrodon, is there a place online where we can see the rest of your TAS research notes?

I don't keep organized notes, so there isn't any place online where you can find them. I generally just figure things out when I care about them.