Dungeon Keeper - May 24, 2022

Edit history:

SDAVerification: 2022-05-24 02:56:35 pm

2022-05-09 11:35:16 pm

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/DungeonKeeper.html

Dungeon Keeper (pc) (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Decision: Accept

Congratulations to '12114'!

Thread title:

SDAVerification

2022-05-09 11:35:16 pm

Run Information

Dungeon Keeper (pc) (pc) [Any %] [Segmented]

Verification Files

http://v.speeddemosarchive.com/dungeonkeeper20220507

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). If you wish to remain anonymous, you can also send a pm with your reply to 'sdaverification' (please state clearly in that case which run you have verified). This is not a contest where the majority wins - Each verification will be judged on its content.

LotBlind

2022-05-11 01:50:29 pm

Can't wait to get to watch this, though I may take a little time to get round to it.

LotBlind

2022-05-21 11:43:19 am

So what does the AI patch you mentioned do? Why did you choose to install it?

It still seems some parts of the run could probably be faster with more segmentation. What was the reason you forewent this option? Something to do with recording and the resolution swapping?

The run comments could use a few short general pointers on how the game works. I volunteer to write them myself if you don't feel like it, since for this game I pretty easily could. Someone who hasn't played it might take a while to gather what the function of the portal is and what determines what comes through etc. I've already written such notes as I was watching and can send them to you if you wish. Aside from that, might I suggest mentioning the time improved by next to each level's name as well? Won't have to scroll the comments up and down that way.

Level 1 - So you're saving more time over the first quality test run you showed us by getting the gold dug faster? Or the fights? Or both? I see the first two enemies at least die at the same time.

Stupid question: you've got a timer showing so you know when the timed events are happening?

I can confirm there's a few frames of black at the end.

Level 2: Turns out room efficiency is a lie. And so is having the high ground (looks like in the last fight, your minions mostly don't).

Does casting speed on a minion make them recover faster too?

Level 3: Here you can see the gold bursting out of the Knight when he dies. The level is instantly possible to end after that I believe.

Level 4: Do you go to the map after giving orders to dig to the portal just to realign the camera?

Level 5: TBH, 7 attempts isn't a lot but apparently there were a few other missions that gave you more trouble.

Level 6: Did you stop mining towards the enemy before reaching their tunnel? And let their AI dig into your tunnel instead? Smart. Looks like a pretty massive improvement here. What would you say mainly caused that?

Level 7: I don't understand this sentence in your comments: "I thought the lower level missie would die." Oh, wait, you mean dark mistress? I thought you'd misspelled "missile" or something.

5:10 - Oh wow, they're actually going to get something to eat in this one?

What's the idea with training only one mistress initially? Don't you want lots of high-level mistresses in the last fight? And what about could you have laid down some lightning traps of your own?

Level 8: So did you kill the dungeon heart faster without lightning than zoonel?

Level 9: Yeah, it's a part of speedrunning the "best" strats aren't always the best strats. Feel free to include alternative takes as a bonus thing for the game page. You can just upload them the same way and name it in a way so we know what it is. Having said that, looks like a pretty big mistake by zoonel to include that transfer then.

You can't use the life drain spell to make it more consistent with the "Missie"?

Also instead of dropping just one imp to dig through to the knight, why can't you drop several with the idea that they won't all die instantly (?) and they might thus lure the heroes out of the 2x2 box? Or is that bad somehow?

This missions stands out as one that extra segmentation (if possible) could definitely speed up since you could manipulate the wizards more and whatnot.

Level 11: Oh-kay then! Well that's probably not a time that's gonna be beaten.

Looks like zoonel commented something about an invisible key in his comments way back.

4:25 - Nice try though.

I can't believe the game doesn't slow down with over 200 minions. I guess it had to support that in multiplayer.

Level 12: What's the slight choppiness in the horny's attacks when you're hitting the second heart? It just sucks up your inputs if you're not very precise?

Level 14: Again, slightly poor testing by zoonel I guess, although it does seem more risky what you're doing (so nice improvement anyway).

Level 15: Interesting that it lets you do that with fortified/non-fortified walls. Also very nice time save that doesn't just come down to having a level 7 reaper.

Level 16: Your comments have "so the orcs won't aggro me" twice but I think you mean "aggro ON me".

Level 17: To be clear, the hidden realm item you use doesn't mean anything in this run? This level was fun to watch though next time you gotta come up with some swag to throw in there. Like see how many heroes you can flatten with a single boulder trap.

Level 18: I think if you need to claim the dug tunnel, digging diagonally can't really be faster. Clearly you're already next to each subsequent tile by the time you're ready to swing the magic pickaxe again. However, maybe if you don't have to claim the tunnel, diagonal could be a tiny bit faster? Don't know if that would help here anyway.

Level 19: I suppose you could have tried to tunnel into the blue dungeon through some second entrance after you're done luring heroes that way to show the big fight, or maybe it's all reinforced? Either way, I don't think it's a big deal. (In fact I would rather save that second too.)

Level 20: A fun watch given you're multitasking hard most of the way through.

So what does the AI patch you mentioned do? Why did you choose to install it?

It still seems some parts of the run could probably be faster with more segmentation. What was the reason you forewent this option? Something to do with recording and the resolution swapping?

The run comments could use a few short general pointers on how the game works. I volunteer to write them myself if you don't feel like it, since for this game I pretty easily could. Someone who hasn't played it might take a while to gather what the function of the portal is and what determines what comes through etc. I've already written such notes as I was watching and can send them to you if you wish. Aside from that, might I suggest mentioning the time improved by next to each level's name as well? Won't have to scroll the comments up and down that way.

Level 1 - So you're saving more time over the first quality test run you showed us by getting the gold dug faster? Or the fights? Or both? I see the first two enemies at least die at the same time.

Stupid question: you've got a timer showing so you know when the timed events are happening?

I can confirm there's a few frames of black at the end.

Level 2: Turns out room efficiency is a lie. And so is having the high ground (looks like in the last fight, your minions mostly don't).

Does casting speed on a minion make them recover faster too?

Level 3: Here you can see the gold bursting out of the Knight when he dies. The level is instantly possible to end after that I believe.

Level 4: Do you go to the map after giving orders to dig to the portal just to realign the camera?

Level 5: TBH, 7 attempts isn't a lot but apparently there were a few other missions that gave you more trouble.

Level 6: Did you stop mining towards the enemy before reaching their tunnel? And let their AI dig into your tunnel instead? Smart. Looks like a pretty massive improvement here. What would you say mainly caused that?

Level 7: I don't understand this sentence in your comments: "I thought the lower level missie would die." Oh, wait, you mean dark mistress? I thought you'd misspelled "missile" or something.

5:10 - Oh wow, they're actually going to get something to eat in this one?

What's the idea with training only one mistress initially? Don't you want lots of high-level mistresses in the last fight? And what about could you have laid down some lightning traps of your own?

Level 8: So did you kill the dungeon heart faster without lightning than zoonel?

Level 9: Yeah, it's a part of speedrunning the "best" strats aren't always the best strats. Feel free to include alternative takes as a bonus thing for the game page. You can just upload them the same way and name it in a way so we know what it is. Having said that, looks like a pretty big mistake by zoonel to include that transfer then.

You can't use the life drain spell to make it more consistent with the "Missie"?

Also instead of dropping just one imp to dig through to the knight, why can't you drop several with the idea that they won't all die instantly (?) and they might thus lure the heroes out of the 2x2 box? Or is that bad somehow?

This missions stands out as one that extra segmentation (if possible) could definitely speed up since you could manipulate the wizards more and whatnot.

Level 11: Oh-kay then! Well that's probably not a time that's gonna be beaten.

Looks like zoonel commented something about an invisible key in his comments way back.

4:25 - Nice try though.

I can't believe the game doesn't slow down with over 200 minions. I guess it had to support that in multiplayer.

Level 12: What's the slight choppiness in the horny's attacks when you're hitting the second heart? It just sucks up your inputs if you're not very precise?

Level 14: Again, slightly poor testing by zoonel I guess, although it does seem more risky what you're doing (so nice improvement anyway).

Level 15: Interesting that it lets you do that with fortified/non-fortified walls. Also very nice time save that doesn't just come down to having a level 7 reaper.

Level 16: Your comments have "so the orcs won't aggro me" twice but I think you mean "aggro ON me".

Level 17: To be clear, the hidden realm item you use doesn't mean anything in this run? This level was fun to watch though next time you gotta come up with some swag to throw in there. Like see how many heroes you can flatten with a single boulder trap.

Level 18: I think if you need to claim the dug tunnel, digging diagonally can't really be faster. Clearly you're already next to each subsequent tile by the time you're ready to swing the magic pickaxe again. However, maybe if you don't have to claim the tunnel, diagonal could be a tiny bit faster? Don't know if that would help here anyway.

Level 19: I suppose you could have tried to tunnel into the blue dungeon through some second entrance after you're done luring heroes that way to show the big fight, or maybe it's all reinforced? Either way, I don't think it's a big deal. (In fact I would rather save that second too.)

Level 20: A fun watch given you're multitasking hard most of the way through.

LotBlind

2022-05-21 11:44:08 am

I'm pasting these poorly ordered notes (about things the viewers might want to know) here so I don't accidentally lose them.

Does every level have the same kind of creature spawning timer? I.e. starts counting from the start of the level and not when you claim it?

"Wall clipping" is the trick where you clip through a corner while unreinforced?

Minions enter through the claimed portal one by one every 30 seconds (?). Most minion types have basic requirements before they can enter your dungeon. E.g. warlocks require a library to be built first. Each level has a pre-set pool of minions that can appear, including the numbers. The order is mostly randomized. Minions can also be discovered in the map itself (in which case they join whichever keeper has found them first) and obtained through a few more methods. There is an upper limit to how many you can have at once. Minions can be dismissed by dropping them back into the portal.

Different minions have different AI that tells them what to do when. They have different basic preferences such as warlocks preferring to study in the library and skeletons training in the training room.

What's an "action point"?

To obtain money, you have to mine gold AND that gold has to end up in a treasure room that has space left, either carried by imps or by you yourself.

Money is used primarily for building rooms and casting spells other than possession, which is free.

Floor tiles have to be "claimed" by your imps (they turn red) before minions other than imps can be dropped there and before any rooms can be built there. Enemy keepers will do the same. The tiles they've claimed can still be claimed by your imps but it's slower.

The ultimate objective in all the main campaign missions is to either defeat the "Lord of the Land" (usually a knight), destroy enemy keepers' dungeon hearts, or both. Along the way, sub-objectives must be fulfilled to keep scripted events happening that may e.g. give you access more tech and ultimately lead into the knight appearing.

The dungeon heart is the big pulsating glass orb thing.

The enemy keepers, when present, have the same minions, spells etc. as you do and are, in principle, able to use them the same way.

Possession is an ability you always have that lets you do most of the things your minions can do from a first-person view. This means you can join a fight that already has the maximum number (4) of minions fighting. Also a possessed minion can fight much more efficiently since the AI doesn't dodge attacks or use the different abilities in an optimal way. Dragons, especially, increase their damage potential massively when possessed because their fire breath attack can be made continuous. This will become abundantly clear by level 17 by the very latest. A possessed creature can be moved around freely through any territory, including onto claimed enemy territory or through lava, something the basic AI of most creatures doesn't allow for. This is very useful for reaching the enemy dungeon heart early.

Aside from whatever the level gives you automatically, the rest of the rooms, spells and traps have to be researched in a library to become available. Warlocks are the primary research-prone minion.

Training creatures in a training room makes them gain levels which in turn gives them better stats and access to more of their abilities. The increase level special also gives every minion an extra level.

The speed spell makes minions do most things faster, including train and take swings in a fight.

When you gain access to the temple room, you can start sacrificing minions there. The main benefits of doing this is making imps cheaper (seen in level 11) or summoning other creatures.

Slapping a minion is like a short-lasting speed spell except it also hurts them a bit (and can make some of them unhappy if you overdo it).

I'm pasting these poorly ordered notes (about things the viewers might want to know) here so I don't accidentally lose them.

Does every level have the same kind of creature spawning timer? I.e. starts counting from the start of the level and not when you claim it?

"Wall clipping" is the trick where you clip through a corner while unreinforced?

Minions enter through the claimed portal one by one every 30 seconds (?). Most minion types have basic requirements before they can enter your dungeon. E.g. warlocks require a library to be built first. Each level has a pre-set pool of minions that can appear, including the numbers. The order is mostly randomized. Minions can also be discovered in the map itself (in which case they join whichever keeper has found them first) and obtained through a few more methods. There is an upper limit to how many you can have at once. Minions can be dismissed by dropping them back into the portal.

Different minions have different AI that tells them what to do when. They have different basic preferences such as warlocks preferring to study in the library and skeletons training in the training room.

What's an "action point"?

To obtain money, you have to mine gold AND that gold has to end up in a treasure room that has space left, either carried by imps or by you yourself.

Money is used primarily for building rooms and casting spells other than possession, which is free.

Floor tiles have to be "claimed" by your imps (they turn red) before minions other than imps can be dropped there and before any rooms can be built there. Enemy keepers will do the same. The tiles they've claimed can still be claimed by your imps but it's slower.

The ultimate objective in all the main campaign missions is to either defeat the "Lord of the Land" (usually a knight), destroy enemy keepers' dungeon hearts, or both. Along the way, sub-objectives must be fulfilled to keep scripted events happening that may e.g. give you access more tech and ultimately lead into the knight appearing.

The dungeon heart is the big pulsating glass orb thing.

The enemy keepers, when present, have the same minions, spells etc. as you do and are, in principle, able to use them the same way.

Possession is an ability you always have that lets you do most of the things your minions can do from a first-person view. This means you can join a fight that already has the maximum number (4) of minions fighting. Also a possessed minion can fight much more efficiently since the AI doesn't dodge attacks or use the different abilities in an optimal way. Dragons, especially, increase their damage potential massively when possessed because their fire breath attack can be made continuous. This will become abundantly clear by level 17 by the very latest. A possessed creature can be moved around freely through any territory, including onto claimed enemy territory or through lava, something the basic AI of most creatures doesn't allow for. This is very useful for reaching the enemy dungeon heart early.

Aside from whatever the level gives you automatically, the rest of the rooms, spells and traps have to be researched in a library to become available. Warlocks are the primary research-prone minion.

Training creatures in a training room makes them gain levels which in turn gives them better stats and access to more of their abilities. The increase level special also gives every minion an extra level.

The speed spell makes minions do most things faster, including train and take swings in a fight.

When you gain access to the temple room, you can start sacrificing minions there. The main benefits of doing this is making imps cheaper (seen in level 11) or summoning other creatures.

Slapping a minion is like a short-lasting speed spell except it also hurts them a bit (and can make some of them unhappy if you overdo it).

12114

Edit history:

12114: 2022-05-22 08:24:16 am

2022-05-21 09:06:46 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Sorry, my town got hit very bad by a storm and I have no power. How badly do you need a reply in terms of timing? I:d much rather reply on my PC but power restoration might take a couple of days...

LotBlind

2022-05-22 01:16:56 pm

Sad to hear! No hurries whatsoever. I think this run can be accepted as is but I like to wait until after the conversation with the runner anyway.

12114

Edit history:

12114: 2022-05-22 11:30:17 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 11:28:36 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 11:19:22 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 11:06:14 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 11:01:54 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 11:00:34 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 10:58:13 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 10:57:00 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 10:42:16 pm

12114: 2022-05-22 10:40:38 pm

2022-05-22 10:39:52 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Ok, we're good.

Quote:

So what does the AI patch you mentioned do? Why did you choose to install it?

2 reasons, I wanted a 'fair and square' competition with the current SDA run (which also used this same official patch, or the DK gold version basically), and #2 I actually think it's better for speed running which may sound counter intuitive because the patch is supposed to "improve AI behaviour". But my reasoning behind this is that you don't want an AI that's too dumb. So for example, level 15, back in 2009 in the DK thread you will find me complaining that the AI is soooo dumb that he won't even dig to the portal (which makes it impossible to kill him without destroy walls which you don't have) for like a good 10-15 minutes. For other levels the enemy keeper dies so fast it's probably identical (it's like what can the improved AI do when I'm just rushing and swinging at his heart?). For level 20, the enemy keeper is your buddy who clears tentacles, horny and other stuff for you, so like, an improved AI can probably only help.

Quote:

It still seems some parts of the run could probably be faster with more segmentation. What was the reason you forewent this option?

Well, duh :). Again, 2 reasons. 1 is that I got curbstomped back in 2009 by the current SDA run so I kinda wanted to "get that one back". If I were doing a multi-segmented run then it would be a different category/indirect competition with the current SDA run. On the other hand my 2009 run was a bit embarrassing; what with the wrong strats and not very well min-maxed either, so I guess zoonel did me a favor there. The other reason is that it's just not fun, it would pile onto my already long list of chores - such as going to the gym, having intercourse with females, laundry etc. But hey, if adidas or Nike sponsors me with a million dollars I'd be glad to re-visit this issue.

Quote:

The run comments could use a few short general pointers on how the game works.

Yeah I'm open to amending my notes (I do want to include some info I missed but as of right now I'm just waiting for the verdict, it would be wasted effort at this point if the run were to be rejected). It would be quite a novel if we included all your stuff but whatever you guys feel is best for the site is fine by me. I did have an internal debate about this with myself, i.e, how beginner-oriented my notes should be, and I just settled on the notion that "Ah, 99% of the viewers are probably experienced DK players themselves (which is why they're interested in this particular speed run) so it's a waste of time to explain to them what a hatchery is". Like I don't know if watching speedruns of a game you know nothing about is a thing at all, considering you can't judge how 'good' the speed run is (or even understand what the heck is going on at all). I reckon it's extremely rare that a person would watch a speed run of a game he never played (unless of course he's a mod like you)?

Quote:

Level 1 - So you're saving more time over the first quality test run you showed us by getting the gold dug faster? Or the fights?

Just the fights. I haven't compared the old quality test run but I suspect I killed the dwarves a touch faster in my new run (which helps the knight spawn a tad faster) and I probably didn't miss as many attacks on the knight (maybe my AI beetles missed less too).

Quote:

Stupid question: you've got a timer showing so you know when the timed events are happening?

Yeah that's up to the player how he decides to do it. Win10 players probably just use livesplit (an on screen timer) to know when an event will happen.

Quote:

Level 2: Turns out room efficiency is a lie. And so is having the high ground (looks like in the last fight, your minions mostly don't).

High ground? This isn't fortnite :). Don't think anyone claimed high ground mattered. Room efficiency is good too, if you have the time for it (which I don't most of the time cause it's a speed run).

Quote:

Does casting speed on a minion make them recover faster too?

No, I don't think so. Slapped creatures can't be 'forced to sleep' either, it seems. Not sure if that's a bug.

Quote:

Level 3: Here you can see the gold bursting out of the Knight when he dies. The level is instantly possible to end after that I believe.

It is. I probably wasn't spamming space very well because I wanted to focus on killing the knight. With that being said, my level 3 is strong, it won't be getting beat any time soon without cheats I think. To put this in perspective, I had a 290 in-game time run (probably my 4th or 5th 290 run) and I was going for another 290 in-game time run with this run to shave off like 0.5 seconds so I could get a 4:49, but I blew it out of the water with this 288 in-game time run which ended up being a 4:47.

Quote:

Level 4: Do you go to the map after giving orders to dig to the portal just to realign the camera?

Yes, diagonal view drives me bonkers.

Quote:

Level 5: TBH, 7 attempts isn't a lot but apparently there were a few other missions that gave you more trouble.

No no, you misunderstood (perhaps I should edit my notes as well). It wasn't 7 total attempts. It was 7 successful attempts of 100 in-game sec runs, before the double digit one. To get a successful 100 sec in-game time run it was probably a 1 in 20-25 chance (for someone like me anyway) because it's already a world record by 1-2 sec and not exactly "easy". But every time I had a 100 sec run I had some minor blemish so I kinda knew 99 sec was possible. That's why I went for the 99 sec which is like 10 times harder than an already difficult 100 sec run. For the strats I used in my level 5 run (possessing bile demon basically), that run is essentially flawless I believe. It's at or extremely close to the engine's limit.

Quote:

Level 6: Did you stop mining towards the enemy before reaching their tunnel? And let their AI dig into your tunnel instead? Smart. Looks like a pretty massive improvement here. What would you say mainly caused that?

Yes to the tunnel part. As for the other thing, the main difference here was the 3rd mistress. In zoonel's run one of his mistresses wandered off to his own heart, costing him quite a few seconds, and only 1 followed him. Whereas in my run, both of them followed me to the enemy heart. He didn't want to grind the RNG I guess.

Quote:

Level 7: I don't understand this sentence in your comments:

Yes, I meant mistress.

Quote:

What's the idea with training only one mistress initially? Don't you want lots of high-level mistresses in the last fight? And what about could you have laid down some lightning traps of your own?

The one mistress is important because I need her to get to level 9, and the other is tortured to help speed up the first mistress do just that (also something I forgot to mention in the comments). Getting her to level 9 alone was a solid 7 attempts so this level is quite tricky. The other mistresses aren't as important because not many of them (if at all) will even reach a high enough level to cast lightning. As for traps, you have to babysit the first mistress with slaps, along with making sure the enemy keeper dies and you make the path to the specials (inc level and transfer). Adding lightning traps to the mix would've made things much more complicated and would've taken away some time from training my minions (seeing as how I'd probably have to toss in some orcs into the workshop or have to get a lot more trolls). The good news is that it's something I definitely considered, so you're not really suggesting anything new for me. The bad news is that I admit I haven't really tested it much because of how much of a pain this level is already. It's 17 mins for 1 attempt and trying to shave off 1 second with additional lightning traps (+ everything else going well) will pile on many additional hours just for this one level (over 1 potential second which may or may not be on the table).

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Level 8: So did you kill the dungeon heart faster without lightning than zoonel?

No and this is the thing I've been bitching about for a long time. It's the only fishy thing I find about the current SDA run - how the heart was killed in level 8 with melee and lightning mixed in. You have to perfectly sync 3 buttons in a split second (mouse 1, 1 and 2) over and over and over again for about half a minute (those 30 seconds alone of doing that is probably as hard as a handful of quake 1 world records on this site). I can maybe only do that for 2 seconds before I get confused and start messing up. Maybe zoonel is a god? In short, I wasn't able to do it without scripts. I also asked you about this in the thread but you said you were only on level 1 and couldn't test it. Feel free to still test it if you can and make a youtube tutorial about it or something, I'd consider re-running level 8 then.

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Level 9: Yeah, it's a part of speedrunning the "best" strats aren't always the best strats. Feel free to include alternative takes as a bonus thing for the game page

Yea my original plan was to include the transfer in level 9, and then horny rush the heart in level 10. Level 9 took 2:39 this way, and 10 49 seconds (10 was a perfect run). When you add it up it's just under 10 sec slower. It is a very subtle difference and this is why I noticed it so late (at the last second while actually counting the times). I liked my 2:39 level 9 run with the transfer more and this kinda left a sour taste in my mouth but oh well.. I knew there were dragons on level 10 but I thought they were close to my base and I hadn't realized there was one on the other side so damn close to the blue keeper.

Quote:

looks like a pretty big mistake by zoonel to include that transfer then.

Yes and no. He was deadset on getting a level 9 horny by the time he beat level 11. Getting a level 9 horny from scratch in level 11 is a very tough task, if not impossible (it would also make the level 100x sweatier). I guess he just wanted to relax on level 11.

Quote:

Also instead of dropping just one imp to dig through to the knight, why can't you drop several with the idea that they won't all die instantly (?) and they might thus lure the heroes out of the 2x2 box? Or is that bad somehow?

Well dropping several imps would cost me 1-2 extra seconds or so. That damn vampire is the real issue with his slow crap. If you drop more than one imp you can be rest assured that he will use slow on one of them, and then there's a huge chance he will recharge it during the knight fight before the knight is dead and basically kill your run. I think your method introduces more RNG.

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I can't believe the game doesn't slow down with over 200 minions. I guess it had to support that in multiplayer.

Initially I was a bit worried about that as well but it turned out fine.

Quote:

Level 12: What's the slight choppiness in the horny's attacks when you're hitting the second heart? It just sucks up your inputs if you're not very precise?

Correct. It can probably be attributed to fatigue. I had probably killed about 100 hearts on this level alone already prior to this 'successful' attempt, so it was getting slightly annoying and I probably started losing concentration a bit. You do all that work and then always fail this level right at the end because the stupid white heroes get lost in one of the keepers bases (where you can't drop your horny on them instantly) and kill your run.

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Level 14: Again, slightly poor testing by zoonel I guess, although it does seem more risky what you're doing (so nice improvement anyway).

Yeah I will say that if I had to pick the one time where zoonel blundered strategy wise the most, it would be this level. The risky part here (apart from getting carpal tunnel syndrome from mashing all those gold blocks) is actually the wizards, your horny will die quite a lot fighting them. My knight fight isn't much riskier than his. In his run, he could've just kept backing up and swinging at the knight instead of trapping him on the bridge. Trapping him on the bridge does have the added benefit of the knight missing like one heal since he's not aggroed on you (probably), but I don't think it's worth it considering that the length of trapping him offsets that benefit and then some. I was also doing the bridge technique back in 2009 so I don't know whether he picked the bad habit from me or whatnot Cheesy

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Level 15: Interesting that it lets you do that with fortified/non-fortified walls. Also very nice time save that doesn't just come down to having a level 7 reaper.

Yeah the wall clip works on whichever walls (fortified or not), they just have to be connected corner to corner. I think I forgot to explain this in the notes.

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Level 17: To be clear, the hidden realm item you use doesn't mean anything in this run?

It does not (at least for now), but in case I decide to re-run the game or something with the level 9 witch on level 20 in the future, it would save me 27 minutes of re-doing this level. Since there's no time penalty in getting it and since this level is unbeatable anyway, I just went ahead and clicked it just in case.

Quote:

Level 19: I suppose you could have tried to tunnel into the blue dungeon through some second entrance after you're done luring heroes that way to show the big fight, or maybe it's all reinforced? Either way, I don't think it's a big deal. (In fact I would rather save that second too.)

Perhaps. But putting in all that effort and not even knowing whether you'll even get the wr in the end every single time? Could potentially pile on a lot of wasted effort.

Quote:

Does every level have the same kind of creature spawning timer? I.e. starts counting from the start of the level and not when you claim it?

Yeah I believe it's every 20 seconds. The in-game timer is responsible for that (which starts at the beginning of the cut-scene before you take control), and it then checks to see whether you have a portal claimed or not. So in the case of level 1, I claimed it quickly so it gave me a creature within the first 20 seconds (1 to 1.5 sec of that being the cut-scene).

"What's an "action point"?"

It's a thing you touch with one of your units (by walking over it) that triggers an event. The vast majority of times it's basically just used for enemy mob spawns, whether immediately or by triggering a timer first and then doing it later on.

Quote:

The enemy keepers, when present, have the same minions, spells etc. as you do and are, in principle, able to use them the same way.

No, they don't have to have the same spells as you. It depends on the level's script. In level 20 for example the enemy keeper gets/has disease and you don't.

Quote:

Slapping a minion is like a short-lasting speed spell except it also hurts them a bit (and can make some of them unhappy if you overdo it).

Uh, yeah, it lasts exactly 25 seconds I believe. It also makes all your creatures (eventually, and degrees depend on type of creature) angry with the exception of imps and the mistress (she actually likes it and it makes her happier), as far as I know.

The rest of your notes look pretty good.

Ok, we're good.

[quote]So what does the AI patch you mentioned do? Why did you choose to install it?[/quote]

2 reasons, I wanted a 'fair and square' competition with the current SDA run (which also used this same official patch, or the DK gold version basically), and #2 I actually think it's better for speed running which may sound counter intuitive because the patch is supposed to "improve AI behaviour". But my reasoning behind this is that you don't want an AI that's too dumb. So for example, level 15, back in 2009 in the DK thread you will find me complaining that the AI is soooo dumb that he won't even dig to the portal (which makes it impossible to kill him without destroy walls which you don't have) for like a good 10-15 minutes. For other levels the enemy keeper dies so fast it's probably identical (it's like what can the improved AI do when I'm just rushing and swinging at his heart?). For level 20, the enemy keeper is your buddy who clears tentacles, horny and other stuff for you, so like, an improved AI can probably only help.

[quote]It still seems some parts of the run could probably be faster with more segmentation. What was the reason you forewent this option?[/quote]

Well, duh :). Again, 2 reasons. 1 is that I got curbstomped back in 2009 by the current SDA run so I kinda wanted to "get that one back". If I were doing a multi-segmented run then it would be a different category/indirect competition with the current SDA run. On the other hand my 2009 run was a bit embarrassing; what with the wrong strats and not very well min-maxed either, so I guess zoonel did me a favor there. The other reason is that it's just not fun, it would pile onto my already long list of chores - such as going to the gym, having intercourse with females, laundry etc. But hey, if adidas or Nike sponsors me with a million dollars I'd be glad to re-visit this issue.

[quote]The run comments could use a few short general pointers on how the game works.[/quote]

Yeah I'm open to amending my notes (I do want to include some info I missed but as of right now I'm just waiting for the verdict, it would be wasted effort at this point if the run were to be rejected). It would be quite a novel if we included all your stuff but whatever you guys feel is best for the site is fine by me. I did have an internal debate about this with myself, i.e, how beginner-oriented my notes should be, and I just settled on the notion that "Ah, 99% of the viewers are probably experienced DK players themselves (which is why they're interested in this particular speed run) so it's a waste of time to explain to them what a hatchery is". Like I don't know if watching speedruns of a game you know nothing about is a thing at all, considering you can't judge how 'good' the speed run is (or even understand what the heck is going on at all). I reckon it's extremely rare that a person would watch a speed run of a game he never played (unless of course he's a mod like you)?

[quote]Level 1 - So you're saving more time over the first quality test run you showed us by getting the gold dug faster? Or the fights? [/quote]

Just the fights. I haven't compared the old quality test run but I suspect I killed the dwarves a touch faster in my new run (which helps the knight spawn a tad faster) and I probably didn't miss as many attacks on the knight (maybe my AI beetles missed less too).

[quote]Stupid question: you've got a timer showing so you know when the timed events are happening?[/quote]

Yeah that's up to the player how he decides to do it. Win10 players probably just use livesplit (an on screen timer) to know when an event will happen.

[quote]Level 2: Turns out room efficiency is a lie. And so is having the high ground (looks like in the last fight, your minions mostly don't).[/quote]

High ground? This isn't fortnite :). Don't think anyone claimed high ground mattered. Room efficiency is good too, if you have the time for it (which I don't most of the time cause it's a speed run).
[quote]Does casting speed on a minion make them recover faster too?[/quote]

No, I don't think so. Slapped creatures can't be 'forced to sleep' either, it seems. Not sure if that's a bug.

[quote]Level 3: Here you can see the gold bursting out of the Knight when he dies. The level is instantly possible to end after that I believe.[/quote]

It is. I probably wasn't spamming space very well because I wanted to focus on killing the knight. With that being said, my level 3 is strong, it won't be getting beat any time soon without cheats I think. To put this in perspective, I had a 290 in-game time run (probably my 4th or 5th 290 run) and I was going for another 290 in-game time run with this run to shave off like 0.5 seconds so I could get a 4:49, but I blew it out of the water with this 288 in-game time run which ended up being a 4:47.

[quote]Level 4: Do you go to the map after giving orders to dig to the portal just to realign the camera?[/quote]

Yes, diagonal view drives me bonkers.

[quote]Level 5: TBH, 7 attempts isn't a lot but apparently there were a few other missions that gave you more trouble.[/quote]

No no, you misunderstood (perhaps I should edit my notes as well). It wasn't 7 total attempts. It was 7 successful attempts of 100 in-game sec runs, before the double digit one. To get a successful 100 sec in-game time run it was probably a 1 in 20-25 chance (for someone like me anyway) because it's already a world record by 1-2 sec and not exactly "easy". But every time I had a 100 sec run I had some minor blemish so I kinda knew 99 sec was possible. That's why I went for the 99 sec which is like 10 times harder than an already difficult 100 sec run. For the strats I used in my level 5 run (possessing bile demon basically), that run is essentially flawless I believe. It's at or extremely close to the engine's limit.

[quote]Level 6: Did you stop mining towards the enemy before reaching their tunnel? And let their AI dig into your tunnel instead? Smart. Looks like a pretty massive improvement here. What would you say mainly caused that?[/quote]

Yes to the tunnel part. As for the other thing, the main difference here was the 3rd mistress. In zoonel's run one of his mistresses wandered off to his own heart, costing him quite a few seconds, and only 1 followed him. Whereas in my run, both of them followed me to the enemy heart. He didn't want to grind the RNG I guess.

[quote]Level 7: I don't understand this sentence in your comments:[/quote]

Yes, I meant mistress.

[quote]What's the idea with training only one mistress initially? Don't you want lots of high-level mistresses in the last fight? And what about could you have laid down some lightning traps of your own?[/quote]

The one mistress is important because I need her to get to level 9, and the other is tortured to help speed up the first mistress do just that (also something I forgot to mention in the comments). Getting her to level 9 alone was a solid 7 attempts so this level is quite tricky. The other mistresses aren't as important because not many of them (if at all) will even reach a high enough level to cast lightning. As for traps, you have to babysit the first mistress with slaps, along with making sure the enemy keeper dies and you make the path to the specials (inc level and transfer). Adding lightning traps to the mix would've made things much more complicated and would've taken away some time from training my minions (seeing as how I'd probably have to toss in some orcs into the workshop or have to get a lot more trolls). The good news is that it's something I definitely considered, so you're not really suggesting anything new for me. The bad news is that I admit I haven't really tested it much because of how much of a pain this level is already. It's 17 mins for 1 attempt and trying to shave off 1 second with additional lightning traps (+ everything else going well) will pile on many additional hours just for this one level (over 1 potential second which may or may not be on the table).

[quote]Level 8: So did you kill the dungeon heart faster without lightning than zoonel?[/quote]

No and this is the thing I've been bitching about for a long time. It's the only fishy thing I find about the current SDA run - how the heart was killed in level 8 with melee and lightning mixed in. You have to perfectly sync 3 buttons in a split second (mouse 1, 1 and 2) over and over and over again for about half a minute (those 30 seconds alone of doing that is probably as hard as a handful of quake 1 world records on this site). I can maybe only do that for 2 seconds before I get confused and start messing up. Maybe zoonel is a god? In short, I wasn't able to do it without scripts. I also asked you about this in the thread but you said you were only on level 1 and couldn't test it. Feel free to still test it if you can and make a youtube tutorial about it or something, I'd consider re-running level 8 then.

[quote]Level 9: Yeah, it's a part of speedrunning the "best" strats aren't always the best strats. Feel free to include alternative takes as a bonus thing for the game page[/quote]

Yea my original plan was to include the transfer in level 9, and then horny rush the heart in level 10. Level 9 took 2:39 this way, and 10 49 seconds (10 was a perfect run). When you add it up it's just under 10 sec slower. It is a very subtle difference and this is why I noticed it so late (at the last second while actually counting the times). I liked my 2:39 level 9 run with the transfer more and this kinda left a sour taste in my mouth but oh well.. I knew there were dragons on level 10 but I thought they were close to my base and I hadn't realized there was one on the other side so damn close to the blue keeper.

[quote]looks like a pretty big mistake by zoonel to include that transfer then.[/quote]

Yes and no. He was deadset on getting a level 9 horny by the time he beat level 11. Getting a level 9 horny from scratch in level 11 is a very tough task, if not impossible (it would also make the level 100x sweatier). I guess he just wanted to relax on level 11.

[quote]Also instead of dropping just one imp to dig through to the knight, why can't you drop several with the idea that they won't all die instantly (?) and they might thus lure the heroes out of the 2x2 box? Or is that bad somehow?[/quote]

Well dropping several imps would cost me 1-2 extra seconds or so. That damn vampire is the real issue with his slow crap. If you drop more than one imp you can be rest assured that he will use slow on one of them, and then there's a huge chance he will recharge it during the knight fight before the knight is dead and basically kill your run. I think your method introduces more RNG.

[quote]I can't believe the game doesn't slow down with over 200 minions. I guess it had to support that in multiplayer.[/quote]

Initially I was a bit worried about that as well but it turned out fine.

[quote]Level 12: What's the slight choppiness in the horny's attacks when you're hitting the second heart? It just sucks up your inputs if you're not very precise?[/quote]

Correct. It can probably be attributed to fatigue. I had probably killed about 100 hearts on this level alone already prior to this 'successful' attempt, so it was getting slightly annoying and I probably started losing concentration a bit. You do all that work and then always fail this level right at the end because the stupid white heroes get lost in one of the keepers bases (where you can't drop your horny on them instantly) and kill your run.

[quote]Level 14: Again, slightly poor testing by zoonel I guess, although it does seem more risky what you're doing (so nice improvement anyway).[/quote]

Yeah I will say that if I had to pick the one time where zoonel blundered strategy wise the most, it would be this level. The risky part here (apart from getting carpal tunnel syndrome from mashing all those gold blocks) is actually the wizards, your horny will die quite a lot fighting them. My knight fight isn't much riskier than his. In his run, he could've just kept backing up and swinging at the knight instead of trapping him on the bridge. Trapping him on the bridge does have the added benefit of the knight missing like one heal since he's not aggroed on you (probably), but I don't think it's worth it considering that the length of trapping him offsets that benefit and then some. I was also doing the bridge technique back in 2009 so I don't know whether he picked the bad habit from me or whatnot :D

[quote]Level 15: Interesting that it lets you do that with fortified/non-fortified walls. Also very nice time save that doesn't just come down to having a level 7 reaper.[/quote]

Yeah the wall clip works on whichever walls (fortified or not), they just have to be connected corner to corner. I think I forgot to explain this in the notes.

[quote]Level 17: To be clear, the hidden realm item you use doesn't mean anything in this run?[/quote]

It does not (at least for now), but in case I decide to re-run the game or something with the level 9 witch on level 20 in the future, it would save me 27 minutes of re-doing this level. Since there's no time penalty in getting it and since this level is unbeatable anyway, I just went ahead and clicked it just in case.

[quote]Level 19: I suppose you could have tried to tunnel into the blue dungeon through some second entrance after you're done luring heroes that way to show the big fight, or maybe it's all reinforced? Either way, I don't think it's a big deal. (In fact I would rather save that second too.)[/quote]

Perhaps. But putting in all that effort and not even knowing whether you'll even get the wr in the end every single time? Could potentially pile on a lot of wasted effort.

[quote]Does every level have the same kind of creature spawning timer? I.e. starts counting from the start of the level and not when you claim it?[/quote]

Yeah I believe it's every 20 seconds. The in-game timer is responsible for that (which starts at the beginning of the cut-scene before you take control), and it then checks to see whether you have a portal claimed or not. So in the case of level 1, I claimed it quickly so it gave me a creature within the first 20 seconds (1 to 1.5 sec of that being the cut-scene).

"What's an "action point"?"

It's a thing you touch with one of your units (by walking over it) that triggers an event. The vast majority of times it's basically just used for enemy mob spawns, whether immediately or by triggering a timer first and then doing it later on.

[quote]The enemy keepers, when present, have the same minions, spells etc. as you do and are, in principle, able to use them the same way.[/quote]

No, they don't have to have the same spells as you. It depends on the level's script. In level 20 for example the enemy keeper gets/has disease and you don't.

[quote]Slapping a minion is like a short-lasting speed spell except it also hurts them a bit (and can make some of them unhappy if you overdo it).[/quote]

Uh, yeah, it lasts exactly 25 seconds I believe. It also makes all your creatures (eventually, and degrees depend on type of creature) angry with the exception of imps and the mistress (she actually likes it and it makes her happier), as far as I know.

The rest of your notes look pretty good.

LotBlind

2022-05-23 02:08:48 pm

AI patch: Okay, faster is faster.

Segmentation: Well okay in this case but we have rejected runs on the basis of too few segments used before. Those generally had quite few segments though.

Notes: Actually, in my mind anyway, the SDA viewers should be assumed to be just generic speedrun fans (that's who we're trying to cater for anyway). I know there's also people who watch large chunks of those marathons without being too fussy about what's on. I would say some things are or become apparent as you watch the run, e.g. people will quickly realize what the game shows under the minion's portrait in possessed mode is their abilities with their various cooldowns. But something like how do you know what's coming through the portal could use some generic note like "depends on the rooms you've built and the minion pool available in the level" to prime for your more detailed play-by-play notes.

High ground: It's that common meme about how high ground is better in a fight, not something you said. Room efficiency looks like a lie the game is telling you when you choose to build all those 1-tile rooms.

Level 5: I see then.

Level 7: Are you saying torturing mistresses has a gameplay advantage too? :O Wow, sure didn't know that. Okay then about the lightning traps.

Level 8: Sorry, no time to look into it but I'm not holding it against you anyway. There's sometimes legit tricks where you just bind multiple functions to the same key, which can obviously help with syncing stuff as well. Another thing is using a mouse scroll wheel (a free-scrolling one especially) to spam inputs. I doubt this game even lets you bind anything to the mouse wheel though so if that doesn't explain anything, maybe zoonel will one day pop up to tell us how it was done.

Enemy keepers: Right so their spells etc. can differ on a level-by-level basis. I meant in general they play by the same rules as the human-controlled keeper does.

Okay, thanks for all the answers. I don't have anything left to ask as far as this verification is concerned. So you'll edit your notes? I'll take a look at them before publication and with your permission edit in a few more generic pointers up top of the sort I think would be useful to understand the basics of what the viewer is seeing. The game could be quite confusing if you didn't know any of it, doubly so since a lot of it is spent in possession mode. Most won't have played anything quite like it.

----

A/V: At least on par with the current run I think, possibly even with a higher FPS (affecting the mouse cursor mostly).

No cheating detected.

Gameplay: Very good evidence the runner knows what he's doing and has considered alternatives in every level. Could be made faster through RNG etc. manipulation with increased segments but not a massive amount probably. In some cases clearly not at all.

accept this so this guy can go... umm... finish his chores.

AI patch: Okay, faster is faster.

Segmentation: Well okay in this case but we have rejected runs on the basis of too few segments used before. Those generally had quite few segments though.

Notes: Actually, in my mind anyway, the SDA viewers should be assumed to be just generic speedrun fans (that's who we're trying to cater for anyway). I know there's also people who watch large chunks of those marathons without being too fussy about what's on. I would say some things are or become apparent as you watch the run, e.g. people will quickly realize what the game shows under the minion's portrait in possessed mode is their abilities with their various cooldowns. But something like how do you know what's coming through the portal could use some generic note like "depends on the rooms you've built and the minion pool available in the level" to prime for your more detailed play-by-play notes.

High ground: It's that common meme about how high ground is better in a fight, not something you said. Room efficiency looks like a lie the game is telling you when you choose to build all those 1-tile rooms.

Level 5: I see then.

Level 7: Are you saying torturing mistresses has a gameplay advantage too? :O Wow, sure didn't know that. Okay then about the lightning traps.

Level 8: Sorry, no time to look into it but I'm not holding it against you anyway. There's sometimes legit tricks where you just bind multiple functions to the same key, which can obviously help with syncing stuff as well. Another thing is using a mouse scroll wheel (a free-scrolling one especially) to spam inputs. I doubt this game even lets you bind anything to the mouse wheel though so if that doesn't explain anything, maybe zoonel will one day pop up to tell us how it was done.

Enemy keepers: Right so their spells etc. can differ on a level-by-level basis. I meant in general they play by the same rules as the human-controlled keeper does.

Okay, thanks for all the answers. I don't have anything left to ask as far as this verification is concerned. So you'll edit your notes? I'll take a look at them before publication and with your permission edit in a few more generic pointers up top of the sort I think would be useful to understand the basics of what the viewer is seeing. The game could be quite confusing if you didn't know any of it, doubly so since a lot of it is spent in possession mode. Most won't have played anything quite like it.

----

A/V: At least on par with the current run I think, possibly even with a higher FPS (affecting the mouse cursor mostly).

No cheating detected.

Gameplay: Very good evidence the runner knows what he's doing and has considered alternatives in every level. Could be made faster through RNG etc. manipulation with increased segments but not a massive amount probably. In some cases clearly not at all.

[b]accept[/b] this so this guy can go... umm... finish his chores.

12114

Edit history:

12114: 2022-05-24 10:44:50 am

2022-05-24 10:07:54 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

There's sometimes legit tricks where you just bind multiple functions to the same key, which can obviously help with syncing stuff as well.

I know no such 'legit' tricks and like you said, yeah, this game doesn't let you bind anything to the mousewheel.

Yeah I can edit my notes. We can include your notes at the top prefaced by 'LotBlind's comments:', or 'SDA staff's comments:', and then I guess followed by 'Author's comments:' down below.

I guess I'll upload them with the SDA app.

LotBlind

2022-05-24 12:29:46 pm

Actually I would suggest you just absorb everything I wrote (don't have to edit it even) into your notes, but reorder it so it makes sense. Gets too complicated otherwise. Don't even bother crediting me, I just thought I was in a position to know what the average viewer might struggle to understand about the game.

There should be a button or option that says something like "edit comments" in the submission fields somewhere.

SDAVerification

2022-05-24 02:56:37 pm

Decision posted.

12114

Edit history:

12114: 2022-05-24 09:34:29 pm

12114: 2022-05-24 09:33:58 pm

2022-05-24 09:27:14 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Alright, I re-edited my comments with shoed-in LotBlind's comments in there as well. Slightly edited his portion (which starts comments for beginners: and ends with a bunch of underscores), but 99% of his writing is basically the same.
Re-submitted the notes too.
I guess we should be good.

edit: Crap, forgot to thank the sda staff in the notes and just re-submitted again, lol.

LotBlind

2022-05-25 08:38:55 am

Yes, you are correct to think thanking the staff is compulsory.

Good job on this run and we look forward to anything else you come up with! Feel free to discuss other categories more in the game's own thread if need be. Actually, I almost forgot I wanted to link this thread here in case you found it of interest.

I took the time to edit the top part of the comments with a few more notes that weren't explicitly mentioned in the level-by-level. I think I'm only saying things that I know for sure so I won't bother copying it anywhere for you to see right now. BTW: I started to wonder if you couldn't have used the torture minion trick in other levels to e.g. make warlocks research faster?

Worn_Traveler

2022-05-25 11:57:55 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

I watched this run today. Good job and congrats! It was a fun watch. I read your comments both before and during watching and they helped someone unfamiliar with the game like me a lot.