Dragon Warrior Run

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2014-11-21 01:23:11 am

2014-11-21 01:21:26 am

Quote from Asvarduil:

I've done a Dragon Warrior I speedrun on the Game Boy Color version (the Dragon Warrior I & II compilation, released in the U.S. in 2001.)

Cool. Are you aware of the Nico Nico RTA on Dragon Quest 1? And also that the DracoLord follows a fixed pattern? If not, that might be helpful info.

Also, as to the run itself...what's about the safest, non-risky route that people have found? Are all these runs doing the Str/Agl build because that's actually the most consistent build, or are they just doing it because it has the most potential to get a WR?

Asvarduil

Edit history:

Asvarduil: 2014-11-21 07:32:44 am

2014-11-21 07:32:30 am

Quote from FionordeQuester:

Cool. Are you aware of the Nico Nico RTA on Dragon Quest 1? And also that the DracoLord follows a fixed pattern? If not, that might be helpful info.

I've had it mentioned to me, but I've never actually managed to get around to watching it. As far as DracoLord following a fixed pattern, I've suspected that for a bit now, but it's good to have confirmation on it. My next DW1 run, I'll pay attention and make notes.

Quote from FionordeQuester:

Also, as to the run itself...what's about the safest, non-risky route that people have found? Are all these runs doing the Str/Agl build because that's actually the most consistent build, or are they just doing it because it has the most potential to get a WR?

This is my current Any% Glitchless setup. I do it this way because I can safely finish the game. The only issues I have, is I need to do something about the 10-13 grind, and the 16-19 grind. On my Casual run thread, @gyre mentioned that I could do Golem as early as Lv.11, and possibly attempt an early Loto's Armor at Lv.13-14, to skip the Magic Armor in Rimuldar. The problem is, that turns my 10-13 and 16-19 grinds into a huge 13-19 grind; my run is structured to take Dragon+ and Golem in the late game so I don't have to grind those nasty last levels quite so much. I'm figuring out how to get Any% Glitchless to be faster, I'd be totally happy with sub-2:30:00.

[quote="FionordeQuester"]Cool.  Are you aware of the Nico Nico RTA on Dragon Quest 1?  And also that the DracoLord follows a fixed pattern?  If not, that might be helpful info.[/quote]

I've had it mentioned to me, but I've never actually managed to get around to watching it.  As far as DracoLord following a fixed pattern, I've suspected that for a bit now, but it's good to have confirmation on it.  My next DW1 run, I'll pay attention and make notes.

[quote="FionordeQuester"]Also, as to the run itself...what's about the safest, non-risky route that people have found?  Are all these runs doing the Str/Agl build because that's actually the most consistent build, or are they just doing it because it has the most potential to get a WR?[/quote]

[url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u-Yla-S_g_ak5NkLbuR4PM7oupdi9mz2EczdBIQQeeI/]This is my current Any% Glitchless setup[/url].  I do it this way because I can safely finish the game.  The only issues I have, is I need to do something about the 10-13 grind, and the 16-19 grind.  On my Casual run thread, @gyre mentioned that I could do Golem as early as Lv.11, and possibly attempt an early Loto's Armor at Lv.13-14, to skip the Magic Armor in Rimuldar.  The problem is, that turns my 10-13 and 16-19 grinds into a huge 13-19 grind; my run is structured to take Dragon+ and Golem in the late game so I don't have to grind those nasty last levels quite so much.  I'm figuring out how to get Any% Glitchless to be faster, I'd be totally happy with sub-2:30:00.

Crow!

2014-11-21 08:06:56 am

What's that gemma?

Can you fight those Blue Dragons without needing to return home and restore MP? In the NES version, the proper place to do the final grinding is always the Hauksness desert, because even though you get a higher EXP/min in some other places so long as you're in them, those places involve occasionally needing to heal.

Asvarduil

Edit history:

Asvarduil: 2014-11-21 11:16:44 am

2014-11-21 09:31:19 am

Quote from Crow!:

Can you fight those Blue Dragons without needing to return home and restore MP? In the NES version, the proper place to do the final grinding is always the Hauksness desert, because even though you get a higher EXP/min in some other places so long as you're in them, those places involve occasionally needing to heal.

So far, even with Loto's Armor, I haven't been able to shake needing to Inn for MP partway through the endgame grind; occasionally, stuff crits you and you run out of Herbs or get down to 6 MP (which is what you need to cast Outside so you can run the heck away!)

From Lv.16-19, each level requires 3000XP. Each Blue Dragon is worth 170XP, thus it takes roughly 18 Blue Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 17.6470588235294117 repeating dragons), assuming you encounter nothing but Blue Dragons (that would be a WR run!) Given that there is a gap of three levels (16-17, 17-18, 18-19) in my current route, that means that would take 54 Blue Dragons to grind from Lv.16 to 19. That being said, it takes about 9 Red Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 8.57142 repeating dragons, but eh) and thus 27 Red Dragons from Lv.16 to Lv.19. Caveat being, they appear with a lower frequency.

As far as the Hauksness/Domdora high-encounter tiles, I actually use that in my current route to grind from 13-15. I'm not sure it's the best possible place for the final bits of grinding in the game, though. I've considered the desert/foothills on Charlock Island instead, because you still have the 25% encounter rate, only with Cantlin/Mercado monsters, which give much better XP.

Still, I'm open to suggestions. I don't claim to be a super-expert, yet.

[quote="Crow!"]Can you fight those Blue Dragons without needing to return home and restore MP?  In the NES version, the proper place to do the final grinding is always the Hauksness desert, because even though you get a higher EXP/min in some other places so long as you're in them, those places involve occasionally needing to heal.[/quote]

So far, even with Loto's Armor, I haven't been able to shake needing to Inn for MP partway through the endgame grind; occasionally, stuff crits you and you run out of Herbs or get down to 6 MP (which is what you need to cast Outside so you can run the heck away!)

From Lv.16-19, each level requires 3000XP.  Each Blue Dragon is worth 170XP, thus it takes roughly 18 Blue Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 17.6470588235294117 repeating dragons), assuming you encounter nothing but Blue Dragons (that would be a WR run!)  Given that there is a gap of three levels (16-17, 17-18, 18-19) in my current route, that means that would take 54 Blue Dragons to grind from Lv.16 to 19.  That being said, it takes about 9 Red Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 8.57142 repeating dragons, but eh) and thus 27 Red Dragons from Lv.16 to Lv.19.  Caveat being, they appear with a lower frequency.

As far as the Hauksness/Domdora high-encounter tiles, I actually use that in my current route to grind from 13-15.  I'm not sure it's the best possible place for the final bits of grinding in the game, though.  I've considered the desert/foothills on Charlock Island instead, because you still have the 25% encounter rate, only with Cantlin/Mercado monsters, which give much better XP.

Still, I'm open to suggestions.   I don't claim to be a super-expert, yet.

FionordeQuester

2014-11-21 11:41:36 am

I see. Thank you Asvar! And how about the NES run? Do we still think that the most reliable build is Str/HP, or is the Str/Agl build now the most popular?

Hsanrb

2014-11-24 11:27:02 am

Quote from Asvarduil:

Quote from Crow!:

Can you fight those Blue Dragons without needing to return home and restore MP? In the NES version, the proper place to do the final grinding is always the Hauksness desert, because even though you get a higher EXP/min in some other places so long as you're in them, those places involve occasionally needing to heal.

So far, even with Loto's Armor, I haven't been able to shake needing to Inn for MP partway through the endgame grind; occasionally, stuff crits you and you run out of Herbs or get down to 6 MP (which is what you need to cast Outside so you can run the heck away!)

From Lv.16-19, each level requires 3000XP. Each Blue Dragon is worth 170XP, thus it takes roughly 18 Blue Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 17.6470588235294117 repeating dragons), assuming you encounter nothing but Blue Dragons (that would be a WR run!) Given that there is a gap of three levels (16-17, 17-18, 18-19) in my current route, that means that would take 54 Blue Dragons to grind from Lv.16 to 19. That being said, it takes about 9 Red Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 8.57142 repeating dragons, but eh) and thus 27 Red Dragons from Lv.16 to Lv.19. Caveat being, they appear with a lower frequency.

As far as the Hauksness/Domdora high-encounter tiles, I actually use that in my current route to grind from 13-15. I'm not sure it's the best possible place for the final bits of grinding in the game, though. I've considered the desert/foothills on Charlock Island instead, because you still have the 25% encounter rate, only with Cantlin/Mercado monsters, which give much better XP.

Still, I'm open to suggestions. I don't claim to be a super-expert, yet.

The GBC version of DQ1 has alot of small nuances your route ignores, like throwing torches prior to getting fireball so you can grind in the forest outside Kol, you fight the golem early to capitalize its massive XP gain to jump from 8->11, and farm the dragon that guards the princess until 14? Its 1 level after you get the encounter ignore spell. If you die without saving her, the dragon comes back so you just death abuse that 4-5 times and by the time you get 14, you should be in decent shape to get the armor near mercado.

I remember hearing the GBC time should be ~1:30 which is just half an hour under the SFC time (because the GBC version shrinks the tileset so it goes from a 2x2 to a 1x1 area (YOU notice this more in DQ2 where seeds are eaten from the conversion,) great for using armor to gain HP, bad for going to and from places. The average encounter rate is the same, just the SFC gives you more "steps" to gain HP between fights and the GBC condenses that rate so the distance traveled is the same, but the player steps is lower.

And I didn't study heavily, but I highly remember the dragon lords pattern was like a 5 or 6 action loop that generally passed initiation between you and him back in pairs. He goes first, then you go first, then you go first, he goes first... but knowing where you start in the pattern is the tricky bit because you usually cannot tell for the first few turns because you have no idea when the flame breath is gonna come until hes done it twice?

[quote="Asvarduil"][quote="Crow!"]Can you fight those Blue Dragons without needing to return home and restore MP?  In the NES version, the proper place to do the final grinding is always the Hauksness desert, because even though you get a higher EXP/min in some other places so long as you're in them, those places involve occasionally needing to heal.[/quote]

So far, even with Loto's Armor, I haven't been able to shake needing to Inn for MP partway through the endgame grind; occasionally, stuff crits you and you run out of Herbs or get down to 6 MP (which is what you need to cast Outside so you can run the heck away!)

From Lv.16-19, each level requires 3000XP.  Each Blue Dragon is worth 170XP, thus it takes roughly 18 Blue Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 17.6470588235294117 repeating dragons), assuming you encounter nothing but Blue Dragons (that would be a WR run!)  Given that there is a gap of three levels (16-17, 17-18, 18-19) in my current route, that means that would take 54 Blue Dragons to grind from Lv.16 to 19.  That being said, it takes about 9 Red Dragons to gain a single level (It's actually 8.57142 repeating dragons, but eh) and thus 27 Red Dragons from Lv.16 to Lv.19.  Caveat being, they appear with a lower frequency.

As far as the Hauksness/Domdora high-encounter tiles, I actually use that in my current route to grind from 13-15.  I'm not sure it's the best possible place for the final bits of grinding in the game, though.  I've considered the desert/foothills on Charlock Island instead, because you still have the 25% encounter rate, only with Cantlin/Mercado monsters, which give much better XP.

Still, I'm open to suggestions.   I don't claim to be a super-expert, yet.[/quote]

The GBC version of DQ1 has alot of small nuances your route ignores, like throwing torches prior to getting fireball so you can grind in the forest outside Kol, you fight the golem early to capitalize its massive XP gain to jump from 8->11, and farm the dragon that guards the princess until 14? Its 1 level after you get the encounter ignore spell. If you die without saving her, the dragon comes back so you just death abuse that 4-5 times and by the time you get 14, you should be in decent shape to get the armor near mercado.

I remember hearing the GBC time should be ~1:30 which is just half an hour under the SFC time (because the GBC version shrinks the tileset so it goes from a 2x2 to a 1x1 area (YOU notice this more in DQ2 where seeds are eaten from the conversion,) great for using armor to gain HP, bad for going to and from places. The average encounter rate is the same, just the SFC gives you more "steps" to gain HP between fights and the GBC condenses that rate so the distance traveled is the same, but the player steps is lower.

And I didn't study heavily, but I highly remember the dragon lords pattern was like a 5 or 6 action loop that generally passed initiation between you and him back in pairs. He goes first, then you go first, then you go first, he goes first... but knowing where you start in the pattern is the tricky bit because you usually cannot tell for the first few turns because you have no idea when the flame breath is gonna come until hes done it twice?

Asvarduil

Edit history:

Asvarduil: 2014-11-24 11:40:16 am

2014-11-24 11:39:48 am

Quote from Hsanrb:

The GBC version of DQ1 has alot of small nuances your route ignores, like throwing torches prior to getting fireball so you can grind in the forest outside Kol, you fight the golem early to capitalize its massive XP gain to jump from 8->11, and farm the dragon that guards the princess until 14? Its 1 level after you get the encounter ignore spell. If you die without saving her, the dragon comes back so you just death abuse that 4-5 times and by the time you get 14, you should be in decent shape to get the armor near mercado.

I remember hearing the GBC time should be ~1:30 which is just half an hour under the SFC time (because the GBC version shrinks the tileset so it goes from a 2x2 to a 1x1 area (YOU notice this more in DQ2 where seeds are eaten from the conversion,) great for using armor to gain HP, bad for going to and from places. The average encounter rate is the same, just the SFC gives you more "steps" to gain HP between fights and the GBC condenses that rate so the distance traveled is the same, but the player steps is lower.

And I didn't study heavily, but I highly remember the dragon lords pattern was like a 5 or 6 action loop that generally passed initiation between you and him back in pairs. He goes first, then you go first, then you go first, he goes first... but knowing where you start in the pattern is the tricky bit because you usually cannot tell for the first few turns because you have no idea when the flame breath is gonna come until hes done it twice?

By the by, I'm doing Any% Glitchless (it's on the title of my run bro!)

I don't farm Dragon+, because it's abusing a death glitch (if I die in the elder game, I will re-kill Dragon+ as a mitigation strategy, though. I don't count that as abusing the glitch, because I'm not dying for the explicit purpose of respawning Dragon+!) Similarly I don't stuff my inventory at Garinham, walk into the Mountain Cave, get down to B3 (?) and spam the chest that can contain the Choker for an absurd amount of money.

I've seen gyre's 1:30:00 run, where he torches monsters in the Kol forest to get Firebal ASAP - it's not something I've figured out how to work into my route, because stuff nukes me to an early grave. As far as Golem, I'm actually planning to do a 'late' early Golem jump from Lv.11-13, as that's a really slow part of the game for my current route; from what I've heard, my early game isn't too bad, because the amount of time it takes to roll a Choker in Mountain Cave is usually more than offset by the speed at which I get the early Sun Stones/Silver Harp/Rain Staff.

Also, you're wrong about when the PC gets Repel - you learn it at Lv.15. The spell you're thinking of at Lv.13 is Return, which makes Warp Wings worthless (unless you want to save on MP.)

[quote="Hsanrb"]The GBC version of DQ1 has alot of small nuances your route ignores, like throwing torches prior to getting fireball so you can grind in the forest outside Kol, you fight the golem early to capitalize its massive XP gain to jump from 8->11, and farm the dragon that guards the princess until 14? Its 1 level after you get the encounter ignore spell. If you die without saving her, the dragon comes back so you just death abuse that 4-5 times and by the time you get 14, you should be in decent shape to get the armor near mercado.

I remember hearing the GBC time should be ~1:30 which is just half an hour under the SFC time (because the GBC version shrinks the tileset so it goes from a 2x2 to a 1x1 area (YOU notice this more in DQ2 where seeds are eaten from the conversion,) great for using armor to gain HP, bad for going to and from places. The average encounter rate is the same, just the SFC gives you more "steps" to gain HP between fights and the GBC condenses that rate so the distance traveled is the same, but the player steps is lower.

And I didn't study heavily, but I highly remember the dragon lords pattern was like a 5 or 6 action loop that generally passed initiation between you and him back in pairs. He goes first, then you go first, then you go first, he goes first... but knowing where you start in the pattern is the tricky bit because you usually cannot tell for the first few turns because you have no idea when the flame breath is gonna come until hes done it twice?[/quote]

By the by, I'm doing Any% Glitchless (it's on the title of my run bro!)

I don't farm Dragon+, because it's abusing a death glitch (if I die in the elder game, I will re-kill Dragon+ as a mitigation strategy, though.  I don't count that as abusing the glitch, because I'm not dying [i]for the explicit purpose of respawning Dragon+![/i])  Similarly I don't stuff my inventory at Garinham, walk into the Mountain Cave, get down to B3 (?) and spam the chest that can contain the Choker for an absurd amount of money.

I've seen gyre's 1:30:00 run, where he torches monsters in the Kol forest to get Firebal ASAP - it's not something I've figured out how to work into my route, because stuff nukes me to an early grave.  As far as Golem, I'm actually planning to do a 'late' early Golem jump from Lv.11-13, as that's a really slow part of the game for my current route; from what I've heard, my early game isn't too bad, because the amount of time it takes to roll a Choker in Mountain Cave is usually more than offset by the speed at which I get the early Sun Stones/Silver Harp/Rain Staff.

Also, you're wrong about when the PC gets Repel - you learn it at Lv.15.  The spell you're thinking of at Lv.13 is Return, which makes Warp Wings worthless (unless you want to save on MP.)

Crow!

2014-11-24 03:04:50 pm

What's that gemma?

I'm afraid I don't see how causing the Dragon+ to respawn is a glitch; the game clearly intentionally respawns the dragon in case you die in the interim between killing the dragon and rescuing the princess.

If your category includes "deathless", then that's a different matter, but simply choosing "glitchless" as your category wouldn't prevent you from using what the game thinks is a penalty as an advantage.

FionordeQuester

2014-11-27 10:52:04 pm

Quote from Crow!:

I'm afraid I don't see how causing the Dragon+ to respawn is a glitch; the game clearly intentionally respawns the dragon in case you die in the interim between killing the dragon and rescuing the princess.

Actually, that's most likely not true. See, it may be easy to trigger the respawn in the GBC version, but in the SNES version, it doesn't work at all unless you've already talked to the Princess. If you die either outside or inside before talking to her, the Dragon remains dead regardless. So unless you die while carrying her in your arms, it doesn't work...

So, because of that, I'm inclined to believe that the ease at which you can perform the trick in the GBC version (as well as the trick itself) was an accident rather than something that was done on purpose.

Crow!

2014-12-02 04:26:41 pm

What's that gemma?

The SNES version was before the GBC one. It becomes easier to get that dragon to respawn in the later version. I'd be more inclined be believe that the SNES sometimes not respawning was a mistake that they chose to fix, rather than that the game got progressively glitchier with each release.

The natural and easiest way to code a one-of-a-kind enemy is to simply assign a bit to keeping track of whether it's alive or not. The fact that they went out of their way to do something more complicated than that says they obviously didn't want it to just be a unique enemy. While there's no guarantee that their code respawns the dragon only in the cases where it was supposed to spawn, I think it's clear that the dragon was supposed to respawn under at least one circumstance.

Lhexa

2015-01-10 02:30:11 am

Is this Dragon Warrior speedrunning's first category debate? I'm so proud of it. <3

FionordeQuester

2015-01-17 04:47:53 am

So, I've been trying to figure this out, but I haven't found any resources online, so, I have to ask. How much time exactly does the Treasure Chest Bug save in an NES RTA?

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-01-22 05:44:33 pm

2015-01-18 05:29:04 pm

What's that gemma?

The person to ask for that is Feasel, if you catch him streaming at some point. One time he tried to do a Mountain Cave grind (hoping for a Cursed Belt, which he didn't get), but I don't remember how much time that strategy wound up costing him compared to the infinite chest opening.

EDIT:
I asked Feasel in stream. He gave an estimate, but said that I "shouldn't quote him on that."

His alternative strategy to the chest glitch involved farming in the Mountain Cave, getting another shot at the Death Necklace each time. If you happen to get a Death Necklace versus if you don't makes a big difference.

Asvarduil

Edit history:

Asvarduil: 2015-01-21 03:15:35 pm

2015-01-21 03:13:17 pm

I wanted to chime in that my Dragon Warrior I for GBC route has changed, thanks to some suggestions by Gyre (You can see for yourself here.)

My runs used to take about 2:44:00~ for an Any% Glitchless run. Thanks to using Gyre's Torch Tossing to get to Kol early and safely (along with Lv.4 quickly and easily), abandoning the South Rimuldar grinding at Lv.11 for an early Golem (fun fact: you have to be really careful, but you can grind in the Mercado/Cantlin region at Lv.13!) and just not bothering with the Magic Armor or Silver Shield (I take Steel Armor in Rimuldar, and finish the game with the Iron Shield from Garinham), my most recent offline run has come in at 2:32:00 - a time savings of 12:00! And, that's with taking a death from the MadKnight in Hauksness/Domdora when getting Loto's Armor.

Exploiting the Choker Chest in the Mountain Cave, and abusing Dragon+ are still going to be significantly faster than this glitchless route, and there's still a bit of grinding that has to be done if you're not exploiting glitches, but I'm gunning for a sub-2:30:00 run next.

I wanted to chime in that my Dragon Warrior I for GBC route has changed, thanks to some suggestions by Gyre ([url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1u-Yla-S_g_ak5NkLbuR4PM7oupdi9mz2EczdBIQQeeI/]You can see for yourself here.[/url])

My runs used to take about 2:44:00~ for an Any% Glitchless run.  Thanks to using Gyre's Torch Tossing to get to Kol early and safely (along with Lv.4 quickly and easily), abandoning the South Rimuldar grinding at Lv.11 for an early Golem (fun fact: you have to be really careful, but you can grind in the Mercado/Cantlin region at Lv.13!) and just not bothering with the Magic Armor or Silver Shield (I take Steel Armor in Rimuldar, and finish the game with the Iron Shield from Garinham), my most recent offline run has come in at 2:32:00 - a time savings of 12:00!  And, that's with taking a death from the MadKnight in Hauksness/Domdora when getting Loto's Armor.

Exploiting the Choker Chest in the Mountain Cave, and abusing Dragon+ are still going to be significantly faster than this glitchless route, and there's still a bit of grinding that has to be done if you're not exploiting glitches, but I'm gunning for a sub-2:30:00 run next.

Lhexa

2015-01-24 08:57:22 pm

You can also try asking Ryan8bit on GameFAQs, Fionor. A few years back, he ran simulations on both possibilities, and concluded that the glitch was faster. I don't know what times he got, though. Anyway, as far as I know he is the one who has tested that question most rigorously.

Also, good luck, Asvarduil! I've never played the GBC version, so I can't comment on routing, but I'm always glad to see the series getting attention.

FionordeQuester

2015-03-20 06:54:52 pm

Yo Asvarduil, just so you know, you can actually beat the Dragon Lord at Level 18 by exploiting one thing about that fight. You see, the Dragon Lord's 2nd form goes by an almost completely fixed 4 move pattern which consists of...

Intense Flames>Physical Attack>Weak Flames>Either Weak Flames or Physical Attack>Repeat the Cycle

So basically, the only random part of that whole fight in whether the Dragon Lord uses his Weak Flames as his 4th attack, or his physical attack before looping back around. I mean, he's still tough regardless, but he's also VERY manageable at Level 18.

Crow!

Edit history:

Crow!: 2015-12-02 04:32:32 pm

2015-12-02 04:30:23 pm

What's that gemma?

Hello!

Lhexa made some comments at some point that doing RNG manipulation to get a level 1 Metal Slime kill is probably doable. I have created an emulator movie for one path to defeating a Metal Slime at level 1 via save states, then I have repeated the journey manually and confirmed that it is reasonable for a human to do so.

I have made a Twitch highlight with commentary here:
http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/v/28021951

The key to the affair is that once you leave the throne room, this game operates on so many frame rules that doing "perfect" inputs is pretty easy. You can gauge where you are in the RNG based on the motion of the NPCs in the castle within a minute of play, and if it's an NPC pattern that you've already mapped out a Metal Slimes route for, then you can go kill a Metal Slime and be at level 5 in about 3 minutes.

I mapped out one path to a Metal Slime, but the same principle of "hesitate in front of each encounter that you don't want" should be able to map out a path to reach a Metal Slime for any initial RNG, then pulling up "Command?" a certain number of times for each attack will eventually find a critical hit (or even just a fight where the slime's attacks deal so little damage you win "legitimately"). The more prep work you do, the fewer resets you'll need to find an RNG you're familiar with. I suggest making a slideshow or something that shows all the squares you'll need to hesitate or bring up a menu on for each path, if you learn more than one, and I definitely suggest exploring / practicing on emulator first.

I will note that I did this on the emulator FCEUX, given a PRG1 ROM. I don't think that any emulator errors or any of the PRG 0 vs 1 differences will matter here, but it could.

Below are my notes for my metal slime route.

Quote:

----------
Seeding:

Text boxes in this game are unfortunately unreliable, RNG-wise. The king's textbox, as well as those of the chests, are all sources of variance, so to make life easier, I'm returning to the King right after exiting the stairs (until then he won't save your game), then resetting.

When you reset the game, the title music sounds something like:

Ding, dingding ding_ ding_ ding-, DONG ding_ ding- ding^ ding- dong ....

I'm pressing Start right at the DONG beings, then trying to get to the stairs as fast as possible.

Successful RNG seeding should mean the NPCs all behave in a particular way. Here are some notes:

- The throne room guard should walk down, then up
- The blue man should walk up, left, left
- The blue woman should walk left, then down 4 times.
- The northern merchant should walk right, right, left, right.

----------
Hesitations:

Shortly after exiting Tantegel (before getting adjacent to forests)

At a "knight's move" in front of the first bridge

Right as you exit the hills after that bridge

When you're as close to the hills as you'll ever be while you're going through the western coastline

Twice in a row once you're lined up with the first outcropping of the river before the second bridge

When you're 2 squares past that bridge

As you turn south into the forest

Pull up a menu as you enter the second of three hills, and exit it immediately

On the 6th square of the Desert

Just before reaching the square that is adjacent to the lake

Once you've reached the metal slime zone, hesitate 4 times (this is for speed. You can also just walk for a while and you'll get the encounter).

----------
Fight instructions:

The fight should start as an ambush where you take 4 damage.

Hold B to reject the command menu twice. As the third "Command?" is displaying, hold A.

This will trade hits; you should take another 4 damage.

Then repeat: on the third Command, attack. This is a crit.

After the fight, deathwarp. There's nothing else to do around here yet.

Hello!

Lhexa made some comments at some point that doing RNG manipulation to get a level 1 Metal Slime kill is probably doable.  I have created an emulator movie for one path to defeating a Metal Slime at level 1 via save states, then I have repeated the journey manually and confirmed that it is reasonable for a human to do so.

I have made a Twitch highlight with commentary here:
http://www.twitch.tv/iicrowii/v/28021951

The key to the affair is that [b]once you leave the throne room[/b], this game operates on so many frame rules that doing "perfect" inputs is pretty easy.  You can gauge where you are in the RNG based on the motion of the NPCs in the castle within a minute of play, and if it's an NPC pattern that you've already mapped out a Metal Slimes route for, then you can go kill a Metal Slime and be at level 5 in about 3 minutes.

I mapped out one path to a Metal Slime, but the same principle of "hesitate in front of each encounter that you don't want" should be able to map out a path to reach a Metal Slime for any initial RNG, then pulling up "Command?" a certain number of times for each attack will eventually find a critical hit (or even just a fight where the slime's attacks deal so little damage you win "legitimately").  The more prep work you do, the fewer resets you'll need to find an RNG you're familiar with.  I suggest making a slideshow or something that shows all the squares you'll need to hesitate or bring up a menu on for each path, if you learn more than one, and I definitely suggest exploring / practicing on emulator first.

I will note that I did this on the emulator FCEUX, given a PRG1 ROM.  I don't think that any emulator errors or any of the PRG 0 vs 1 differences will matter here, but it could.

Below are my notes for my metal slime route.

[quote]----------
Seeding:

Text boxes in this game are unfortunately unreliable, RNG-wise.  The king's textbox, as well as those of the chests, are all sources of variance, so to make life easier, I'm returning to the King right after exiting the stairs (until then he won't save your game), then resetting.

When you reset the game, the title music sounds something like:

Ding, dingding ding_ ding_ ding-, DONG ding_ ding- ding^ ding- dong ....

I'm pressing Start right at the DONG beings, then trying to get to the stairs as fast as possible.

Successful RNG seeding should mean the NPCs all behave in a particular way.  Here are some notes:

- The throne room guard should walk down, then up
- The blue man should walk up, left, left
- The blue woman should walk left, then down 4 times.
- The northern merchant should walk right, right, left, right.

----------
Hesitations:

Shortly after exiting Tantegel (before getting adjacent to forests)

At a "knight's move" in front of the first bridge

Right as you exit the hills after that bridge

When you're as close to the hills as you'll ever be while you're going through the western coastline

Twice in a row once you're lined up with the first outcropping of the river before the second bridge

When you're 2 squares past that bridge

As you turn south into the forest

Pull up a menu as you enter the second of three hills, and exit it immediately

On the 6th square of the Desert

Just before reaching the square that is adjacent to the lake

Once you've reached the metal slime zone, hesitate 4 times (this is for speed.  You can also just walk for a while and you'll get the encounter).

----------
Fight instructions:

The fight should start as an ambush where you take 4 damage.

Hold B to reject the command menu twice.  As the third "Command?"  is displaying, hold A.

This will trade hits; you should take another 4 damage.

Then repeat: on the third Command, attack.  This is a crit.

After the fight, deathwarp.  There's nothing else to do around here yet.[/quote]

dunnius

Edit history:

dunnius: 2015-12-02 05:27:41 pm

2015-12-02 04:59:23 pm

Intruding N313 and F014

Could this process be repeated at higher levels, or would that require a different manipulation sequence? I suppose at some point the agility increase from leveling will cause the metal slime to miss which would change the RNG.

However if a manipulation sequence is found that crits the metal slime immediately, I would think that could be used for a number of levels, which means that leveling would consist of saving, resetting, manipulating to the metal slime, deathwarping, and then repeating. At some point in the higher levels it would be faster to switch to the current leveling strat, but this would be a benefit in the lower levels for sure.

Edit: Also, could this manipulation method be used for the axe knight fight for Erdrick's Armor? That would make it easier for the runners, and it might allow this to be done at a somewhat lower level.

Yagamoth

2015-12-02 05:53:39 pm

INTJ

Awesome Crow, I checked your Channel and saw the highlight, really neat

I think mapping out a path that kills multiple Metal Slimes might be a reasonable thing to do as well? I'm not entirely sure how the post-combat screen affects RNG. But I imagine - even if it would be frame-perfect - The chance of getting a 2nd or even 3rd Metal Slime would be worth a try, given how long it takes to get back to this encounter area.

Also, considering this, with enough practice/patience and mapping out the route, it seems entirely doable to get all equipment where you only have to walk to get with this type of manipulation. Whether it's reasonable is another question though.

Looking forward to more update on this, back to lurking for me Smiley

Crow!

2015-12-02 06:56:26 pm

What's that gemma?

@dunnius: Similar manipulation could definitely be used to defeat the Axe Knight (or to grab Erdrick's Sword, for that matter). However, each time you add another reset to RNG manipulate, you're actually adding several resets as you search for one of the RNGs that you recognize after the throne room... and adding another opportunity to mess up walking.

You could probably copy/paste the walk to arrive at the same Metal Slime fight regardless of your level, but the exact "Command?" sequence to kill it would likely be different if your stats were different.

@Yagamoth: The scary thing about chaining multiple metal slime fights together is that, at the end of the fight, every frame that you are slower than perfect when closing the fight's text box will advance the RNG. Therefore, after one Metal Slime fight, you only know approximately where future fights are, not exactly where they are. If the fights after the Metal Slime all happen to be far enough apart from each other, you might be able to safely fit yourself into a spot where you'll get another Metal Slime next, but I give no guarantees that's going to be possible.

@dunnius: Similar manipulation could definitely be used to defeat the Axe Knight (or to grab Erdrick's Sword, for that matter).  However, each time you add another reset to RNG manipulate, you're actually adding several resets as you search for one of the RNGs that you recognize after the throne room... and adding another opportunity to mess up walking.

You could probably copy/paste the walk to arrive at the same Metal Slime fight regardless of your level, but the exact "Command?" sequence to kill it would likely be different if your stats were different.

@Yagamoth: The scary thing about chaining multiple metal slime fights together is that, at the end of the fight, every frame that you are slower than perfect when closing the fight's text box will advance the RNG.  Therefore, after one Metal Slime fight, you only know [i]approximately[/i] where future fights are, not [i]exactly[/i] where they are.  If the fights after the Metal Slime all happen to be far enough apart from each other, you might be able to safely fit yourself into a spot where you'll get another Metal Slime next, but I give no guarantees that's going to be possible.

Lhexa

2015-12-02 07:12:15 pm

Wow, Crow! I'm really glad to see a proof-of-concept of this strategy.

The bad news, as far as speedrunning goes, is that my physics career seems to be off to a good start. So, I won't have the time or energy to spare on this game anymore. I do hope someone else steps up to the task. Maybe the Metal Slime kill could even be useful in a single-segment run!

Hepe

2015-12-02 07:16:08 pm

Rye bread, beer and snus

Well, NESCardinality just got a deathless 5:15:07 run yesterday, ( http://www.twitch.tv/nescardinality/c/7054129 ), but I'm not sure if he would be interested in grinding this out, I did send him a PM about this though.

Crow!

2015-12-03 12:49:12 am

What's that gemma?

Some updates:

Caracarn validated this on console, so that's cool.

Welcotar informed me that the game's checksum wipes out the RNG state when you exit the title screen, so the music cue is apparently unnecessary. However, the value of the checksum matters, i.e., you need to have all your other files erased, and this route will only work for players named J. It also won't work for subsequent trips on the same file (since your save file will have a different checksum).

Caracarn

2015-12-03 01:17:00 am

here's the highlight for my timed verification run - http://www.twitch.tv/caracarnvi/v/28045897

gyre

2015-12-03 02:16:01 am

Nice research work to get a setup. The JP community has been doing metal slime manipulation for a few years but makes it a separate category. Any feelings whether the US community should follow suit or have runs with manipulation just obsolete runs without it?