Dragon Warrior Run

2010-01-08 02:18:52 pm

Highly Evolved

Getting to Rimuldar the second time isn't an issue since you should be stopping at Kol to get the Fairy Flute and you can buy the Full Plate Armor there.

In my game, the only deaths I've had that weren't intentional have been in the Dragonlord's castle.

And for a single segment game, the first run to Rimuldar (which I survived first try) is early enough in the game for a restart to be no big deal. The BIG deal is killing the Dragonlord.

Quote:

You could always try putting Stonemen to sleep since they are really susceptible. Granted, you can still get blocked by them while they're asleep, at least they won't pound on you.

Need the MP for healmore

You won't have healmore if you're doing an early level Erdrick's Sword run...

Chalk another one up for the "I'm really stupid" file.

Quote:

This is what I don't get. Once you get Erdrick's Armor, health should NOT be an issue.

It's not an issue of health so much as MP. Some enemies in those areas at early levels may require you to stopspell or heal in battle . But even walking back and forth a lot may not save as much time as just a simple stay at an inn, especially at lower levels.

It's all about net gain. You walk four spaces and take two damage in the encounter. You gain 2 HP. I've found that I've been able to keep around even until I get that fifteen step lack of encounter in the desert and after a few of those, boom, I'm at full health. No MP used. Stopspell is not needed in the Hauksness desert, only in the city, and by the time you're going to be in the city on a regular basis, you can cast stopspell at least forty times. In leveling I got a negative net gain over a long period only a couple times and only had to heal I think twice.

Quote:

Whoops, I think I calculated 8. You're right, the difference is 6. That would mean an extra 1.5-3 damage, so instead of 3-6 damage, it would be 5-9 damage.

Anyways, that doesn't really change that on average you'll be gaining 9 more turns because of that extra strength, whereas an extra healmore will only give you an extra 1 or 2 turns. Does that make sense?

But like I said, I'm on a run with the lower strength and I'm doing 5-10 damage a turn at level 19.

Getting to Rimuldar the second time isn't an issue since you should be stopping at Kol to get the Fairy Flute and you can buy the Full Plate Armor there.

In my game, the only deaths I've had that weren't intentional have been in the Dragonlord's castle.

And for a single segment game, the first run to Rimuldar (which I survived first try) is early enough in the game for a restart to be no big deal.  The BIG deal is killing the Dragonlord.

[quote]
[Quote]
[Quote]
You could always try putting Stonemen to sleep since they are really susceptible.  Granted, you can still get blocked by them while they're asleep, at least they won't pound on you.[/quote]
Need the MP for healmore[/quote]

You won't have healmore if you're doing an early level Erdrick's Sword run...[/quote]
Chalk another one up for the "I'm really stupid" file.

[Quote][quote]
This is what I don't get.  Once you get Erdrick's Armor, health should NOT be an issue.[/quote]

It's not an issue of health so much as MP.  Some enemies in those areas at early levels may require you to stopspell or heal in battle .  But even walking back and forth a lot may not save as much time as just a simple stay at an inn, especially at lower levels.[/quote]

It's all about net gain.  You walk four spaces and take two damage in the encounter.  You gain 2 HP.  I've found that I've been able to keep around even until I get that fifteen step lack of encounter in the desert and after a few of those, boom, I'm at full health.  No MP used.  Stopspell is not needed in the Hauksness desert, only in the city, and by the time you're going to be in the city on a regular basis, you can cast stopspell at least forty times.  In leveling I got a negative net gain over a long period only a couple times and only had to heal I think twice.

[quote]Whoops, I think I calculated 8.  You're right, the difference is 6.  That would mean an extra 1.5-3 damage, so instead of 3-6 damage, it would be 5-9 damage.

Anyways, that doesn't really change that on average you'll be gaining 9 more turns because of that extra strength, whereas an extra healmore will only give you an extra 1 or 2 turns.  Does that make sense?[/quote]
But like I said, I'm on a run with the lower strength and I'm doing 5-10 damage a turn at level 19.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-08 04:38:22 pm

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Getting to Rimuldar the second time isn't an issue since you should be stopping at Kol to get the Fairy Flute and you can buy the Full Plate Armor there.

Yeah, I think I realized that after I posted and was too lazy to go back and edit it.

I guess it just remains to be seen if the gold trick is worth it.

Quote:

But like I said, I'm on a run with the lower strength and I'm doing 5-10 damage a turn at level 19.

I think I miscalculated. I must have been looking at the level 17 numbers for some reason.

With long term strength at level 18, you have 85 strength (125 attack), which would do 6-12 damage. On average, this would be ~12 attacks.
With short term strength you have 79 strength (119 attack), which would do 4-9 damage. On average, this would be ~16 attacks.

So that's not that big of a difference... only 4 attacks. But it's still better than 1 or 2 attacks.

Let's say you have that extra healmore:
You healmore HP = 115 (if you're on long term HP)
Dragonlord attacks, with a 50/50 chance to breathe fire or physically attack. The physical attack will do 24-48 damage, the fire breath will do 42-48 damage. So an average attack would be roughly 40 damage.
Best case scenario, your HP = 91.
Worst case scenario, your HP = 67.
Average scenario, your HP = 75.
So then you get in one attack, and then the Dragonlord hits back.
Best case scenario, your HP = 67.
Worst case scenario, your HP = 19.
Average scenario, your HP = 35.
Only the best case wouldn't have to heal again. So if you got a second attack, the best case scenario would be that your HP would be 43. At that point, you have to heal.

I'd say the odds of getting 1 attack are ~80%
Getting 2 attacks would be ~20%

Looking back at the best and worst case for attacks against the Dragonlord,
Long term strength would be 9-22 attacks.
Short term strength would be 11-33 attacks.
If you took averages based on that, the difference is more like 6.5 attacks on average.

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]
Getting to Rimuldar the second time isn't an issue since you should be stopping at Kol to get the Fairy Flute and you can buy the Full Plate Armor there.[/quote]

Yeah, I think I realized that after I posted and was too lazy to go back and edit it.

I guess it just remains to be seen if the gold trick is worth it.

[quote]But like I said, I'm on a run with the lower strength and I'm doing 5-10 damage a turn at level 19.[/quote]

I think I miscalculated.  I must have been looking at the level 17 numbers for some reason.

With long term strength at level 18, you have 85 strength (125 attack), which would do 6-12 damage.  On average, this would be ~12 attacks.
With short term strength you have 79 strength (119 attack), which would do 4-9 damage.  On average, this would be ~16 attacks.

So that's not that big of a difference... only 4 attacks.  But it's still better than 1 or 2 attacks.

Let's say you have that extra healmore:
You healmore HP = 115 (if you're on long term HP)
Dragonlord attacks, with a 50/50 chance to breathe fire or physically attack.  The physical attack will do 24-48 damage, the fire breath will do 42-48 damage.  So an average attack would be roughly 40 damage.
Best case scenario, your HP = 91.
Worst case scenario, your HP = 67.
Average scenario, your HP = 75.
So then you get in one attack, and then the Dragonlord hits back.
Best case scenario, your HP = 67.
Worst case scenario, your HP = 19.
Average scenario, your HP = 35.
Only the best case wouldn't have to heal again.  So if you got a second attack, the best case scenario would be that your HP would be 43.  At that point, you have to heal.

I'd say the odds of getting 1 attack are ~80%
Getting 2 attacks would be ~20%

Looking back at the best and worst case for attacks against the Dragonlord,
Long term strength would be 9-22 attacks.
Short term strength would be 11-33 attacks.
If you took averages based on that, the difference is more like 6.5 attacks on average.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-08 05:45:05 pm

Highly Evolved

So basically it should net you an average of 12 or so damage HP when you fight the Dragonlord? I was doing around 120 with HP/MP, so that should be good enough.

I'm running through with a STR/AGI character now and I'll see when I get there. My progress is over on Gamefaqs. I'll be doing some preliminary timing, so we have a sense of where we are.

FionordeQuester

2010-01-08 08:52:47 pm

So, since my question isn't getting any answers on Gamefaqs for some reason, I'm gonna ask again here. How close are you guys to finished?

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-08 10:40:19 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from FionordeQuester:

So, since my question isn't getting any answers on Gamefaqs for some reason, I'm gonna ask again here. How close are you guys to finished?

Finished? Hell, we're still in the planning and testing phase. Who knows how long it'll take to actually get a run up.

As an aside, Shiner, we should totally race this at next year's MAGfest as a graveyard shift. Grin

Paulygon

2010-01-09 02:09:51 am

I like to watch

I may have missed it, but I don't think the obsoletion part of Ryan8bit's question was addressed. Just in case it wasn't: Generally, a faster time will always obsolete a prior run, regardless of the number of segments. There are exceptions and additional details, of course, but I will defer to those more knowledgeable for such explanations, if they deem them relevant.

In any case, it's nice to see all of the in-depth analysis and I look forward to the finished run(s)!

kareshi

2010-01-09 07:43:15 pm

A segmented run won't obsolete a single-segment one, unless of course the SS runner requests it.

By the way, I <3 Dragon Warrior and all, but SS-ing this game sounds like serious pain to the runner. I don't want to imagine the feeling of dying at the final boss, or even at any point after the money glitch. It's going to happen, though, and the runner will probably feel like pouring battery acid in his eyes after a while.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-09 09:00:58 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from kareshi:

A segmented run won't obsolete a single-segment one, unless of course the SS runner requests it.

By the way, I <3 Dragon Warrior and all, but SS-ing this game sounds like serious pain to the runner. I don't want to imagine the feeling of dying at the final boss, or even at any point after the money glitch. It's going to happen, though, and the runner will probably feel like pouring battery acid in his eyes after a while.

That thought had crossed my mind.

However, the money glitch only really takes a little over 20 minutes. Not too bad. There are also a few things about this run. First, an unplanned death is not necessarily a run killer. The only time it definitely will is between the money glitch and broad sword, which is unlikely, and the sprint to Cantlin, which with six herbs and only Magiwyverns to sleep lock you, makes the odds in your favor to make it. After that point, the only death you should suffer is in Charlock, which max will cost you five minutes. For a six hour run, one death should still be acceptable, maybe two.

[quote="kareshi"]
A segmented run won't obsolete a single-segment one, unless of course the SS runner requests it.

By the way, I <3 Dragon Warrior and all, but SS-ing this game sounds like serious pain to the runner. I don't want to imagine the feeling of dying at the final boss, or even at any point after the money glitch. It's going to happen, though, and the runner will probably feel like pouring battery acid in his eyes after a while.
[/quote]
That thought had crossed my mind.

However, the money glitch only really takes a little over 20 minutes.  Not too bad.  There are also a few things about this run.  First, an unplanned death is not necessarily a run killer.  The only time it definitely will is between the money glitch and broad sword, which is unlikely, and the sprint to Cantlin, which with six herbs and only Magiwyverns to sleep lock you, makes the odds in your favor to make it.  After that point, the only death you should suffer is in Charlock, which max will cost you five minutes.  For a six hour run, one death should still be acceptable, maybe two.

ShinerCCC

2010-01-10 12:36:34 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

For a single segment run you might want to grind up to level 19. If you have 5 MP over a multiple of 10 a single use of Hurtmore might make the trip more bearable.

You can buy the Full Plate in Kol?!??!?!? OMGGGGGGGGGGG
and the Weapon shop in there isn't too many steps away from the edge you enter from either. Definitely worth getting there.

I know experience is important but come on, there is an enormous jump from Kol region to Rimuldar region. You go from 6-ish to 16 from Wolves. The large increase in gold intake will make it easier to afford the Silver Shield over time too. My segment plan is the simple way I've thought of doing this, if anybody thinks they can get to Rimuldar and ramp up experience gain in a similar fashion in under 30 minutes they should let me know. Getting good gear like that is a good way to beat the power curve. Besides, it's way too damn cool to cheat Dragon Warrior like that, a speedrun is a good way to demonstrate it Cheesy

I guess the next thing for me to test is looting Charlock without losing the precious 14k gold. I'll get around to it...tonight, maybe. I don't know.

For a single segment run you might want to grind up to level 19. If you have 5 MP over a multiple of 10 a single use of Hurtmore might make the trip more bearable.

You can buy the Full Plate in Kol?!??!?!? OMGGGGGGGGGGG
and the Weapon shop in there isn't too many steps away from the edge you enter from either. Definitely worth getting there.

I know experience is important but come on, there is an enormous jump from Kol region to Rimuldar region. You go from 6-ish to 16 from Wolves. The large increase in gold intake will make it easier to afford the Silver Shield over time too. My segment plan is the simple way I've thought of doing this, if anybody thinks they can get to Rimuldar and ramp up experience gain in a similar fashion in under 30 minutes they should let me know. Getting good gear like that is a good way to beat the power curve. Besides, it's way too damn cool to cheat Dragon Warrior like that, a speedrun is a good way to demonstrate it :D

I guess the next thing for me to test is looting Charlock without losing the precious 14k gold. I'll get around to it...tonight, maybe. I don't know.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-10 12:51:04 am

Highly Evolved

Quote from ShinerCCC:

For a single segment run you might want to grind up to level 19. If you have 5 MP over a multiple of 10 a single use of Hurtmore might make the trip more bearable.

You can buy the Full Plate in Kol?!??!?!? OMGGGGGGGGGGG
and the Weapon shop in there isn't too many steps away from the edge you enter from either. Definitely worth getting there.

It's an extra 25 minutes in Hauksness to get a piddling strength and agility gain and a fairly impressive HP/MP gain. It's a tough choice. Getting two shots to beat the Dragonlord would still be faster than than an extra level.

And to think, as well, after all these years, you can still learn something new about Dragon Warrior. :p

Quote:

I know experience is important but come on, there is an enormous jump from Kol region to Rimuldar region. You go from 6-ish to 16 from Wolves. The large increase in gold intake will make it easier to afford the Silver Shield over time too. My segment plan is the simple way I've thought of doing this, if anybody thinks they can get to Rimuldar and ramp up experience gain in a similar fashion in under 30 minutes they should let me know. Getting good gear like that is a good way to beat the power curve. Besides, it's way too damn cool to cheat Dragon Warrior like that, a speedrun is a good way to demonstrate it Cheesy

I guess the next thing for me to test is looting Charlock without losing the precious 14k gold. I'll get around to it...tonight, maybe. I don't know.

I can't see at all getting Erdrick's Sword first as being faster. Have to heal over and over taking time. Have to run from most of the enemies in Garin's tomb, instead of breezing through them. I took on the Axe Knight at level 13 with the Silver Shield, and it was remarkably easy.

Could you Game Genie something for me? How often could you beat the Dragonlord at level 18 with Str/HP long term gain?

If you're segmenting, I may look at SS'ing it, incredibly stupid as it sounds. I'm fairly consistent in not dying in most parts. Only Charlock is the issue, and as I've said, you really don't lose more than about ten minutes if you die in the castle.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
For a single segment run you might want to grind up to level 19. If you have 5 MP over a multiple of 10 a single use of Hurtmore might make the trip more bearable.

You can buy the Full Plate in Kol?!??!?!? OMGGGGGGGGGGG
and the Weapon shop in there isn't too many steps away from the edge you enter from either. Definitely worth getting there.[/quote]

It's an extra 25 minutes in Hauksness to get a piddling strength and agility gain and a fairly impressive HP/MP gain.  It's a tough choice.  Getting two shots to beat the Dragonlord would still be faster than than an extra level.

And to think, as well, after all these years, you can still learn something new about Dragon Warrior.  :p

[quote]I know experience is important but come on, there is an enormous jump from Kol region to Rimuldar region. You go from 6-ish to 16 from Wolves. The large increase in gold intake will make it easier to afford the Silver Shield over time too. My segment plan is the simple way I've thought of doing this, if anybody thinks they can get to Rimuldar and ramp up experience gain in a similar fashion in under 30 minutes they should let me know. Getting good gear like that is a good way to beat the power curve. Besides, it's way too damn cool to cheat Dragon Warrior like that, a speedrun is a good way to demonstrate it :D

I guess the next thing for me to test is looting Charlock without losing the precious 14k gold. I'll get around to it...tonight, maybe. I don't know.
[/quote]

I can't see at all getting Erdrick's Sword first as being faster.  Have to heal over and over taking time.  Have to run from most of the enemies in Garin's tomb, instead of breezing through them.  I took on the Axe Knight at level 13 with the Silver Shield, and it was remarkably easy.

Could you Game Genie something for me?  How often could you beat the Dragonlord at level 18 with Str/HP long term gain?

If you're segmenting, I may look at SS'ing it, incredibly stupid as it sounds.  I'm fairly consistent in not dying in most parts.  Only Charlock is the issue, and as I've said, you really don't lose more than about ten minutes if you die in the castle.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-11 11:04:36 am

Quote from ShinerCCC:

You can buy the Full Plate in Kol?!??!?!? OMGGGGGGGGGGG
and the Weapon shop in there isn't too many steps away from the edge you enter from either. Definitely worth getting there.

It might be worth going there at level 4 instead of the strip SW of Tantegel simply because the inn is closer. Yeah, you'll be short some gold, but once you get to level 5 you'll make up for that. Plus, if you were to buy the small shield, the weapon shop there is so close to the inn. It'd be quicker to buy there than at Brecconary.

Right now I'm testing Rimuldar runs. While armor does have an effect, it is mostly marginal unless you're talking about the difference between being unequipped and having the leather armor, small shield, and dragon scale.

What kind of strategies do you guys use to get there?

So far, an "all out" strategy seems to be the one with the most success. Meaning that you use heal after any battle where you lost HP, and use herbs in battle rather than running if your HP is low enough for the enemy to kill you. It is a touch more time consuming though.

Quote:

How often could you beat the Dragonlord at level 18 with Str/HP long term gain?

I haven't tested out much in an actual emulator (maybe a handful of battles), but I think my simulator is very straight forward on this. When using basic strategy (meaning if your HP <= 48) you use healmore, or else you fight. The simulator basically runs the battle against the Dragonlord's two forms using this strategy 10,000 times, and it says that with that growth type (B), the odds are ~40% that you will die. Every time I've done it in an emulator, it comes down to having a meager amount of HP and no MP left.

Some extra factors:
-Like all enemies, the Dragonlord has varying HP. The variation on HP is from just above 3/4 to full. So the second form can have anywhere from 98-130HP. That can be a huge difference, so it all comes down to luck. I wish there were some way to know what the HP was. The closest thing I can think of is if you had a turbo controller to limit the number of times the random generator was called, and to have someone else punch the numbers in some sort of application to see what the HP was. If it was too high, it's possible you could run, heal up with some herbs or walking, and try again. However, this requires a lot.
-Ideally, the first form would spam stopspell at you since it will have no effect on you. It's possible you could run and try healing if it casted too many hurtmores.
-Ideally, the second form would just attack, since it has the potential to do a lot less damage. Even if he alternates breath and attacks, he'll still get you below that magic number of 48. What you want from him is consecutive attacks, which will usually allow an extra turn.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
You can buy the Full Plate in Kol?!??!?!? OMGGGGGGGGGGG
and the Weapon shop in there isn't too many steps away from the edge you enter from either. Definitely worth getting there.[/quote]

It might be worth going there at level 4 instead of the strip SW of Tantegel simply because the inn is closer.  Yeah, you'll be short some gold, but once you get to level 5 you'll make up for that.  Plus, if you were to buy the small shield, the weapon shop there is so close to the inn.  It'd be quicker to buy there than at Brecconary.

Right now I'm testing Rimuldar runs.  While armor does have an effect, it is mostly marginal unless you're talking about the difference between being unequipped and having the leather armor, small shield, and dragon scale.

What kind of strategies do you guys use to get there?

So far, an "all out" strategy seems to be the one with the most success.  Meaning that you use heal after any battle where you lost HP, and use herbs in battle rather than running if your HP is low enough for the enemy to kill you.  It is a touch more time consuming though.

[quote]
How often could you beat the Dragonlord at level 18 with Str/HP long term gain?
[/quote]

I haven't tested out much in an actual emulator (maybe a handful of battles), but I think my simulator is very straight forward on this.  When using basic strategy (meaning if your HP <= 48) you use healmore, or else you fight.  The simulator basically runs the battle against the Dragonlord's two forms using this strategy 10,000 times, and it says that with that growth type (B), the odds are ~40% that you will die.  Every time I've done it in an emulator, it comes down to having a meager amount of HP and no MP left.

Some extra factors:
-Like all enemies, the Dragonlord has varying HP.  The variation on HP is from just above 3/4 to full.  So the second form can have anywhere from 98-130HP.  That can be a huge difference, so it all comes down to luck.  I wish there were some way to know what the HP was.  The closest thing I can think of is if you had a turbo controller to limit the number of times the random generator was called, and to have someone else punch the numbers in some sort of application to see what the HP was.  If it was too high, it's possible you could run, heal up with some herbs or walking, and try again.  However, this requires a lot.
-Ideally, the first form would spam stopspell at you since it will have no effect on you.  It's possible you could run and try healing if it casted too many hurtmores.
-Ideally, the second form would just attack, since it has the potential to do a lot less damage.  Even if he alternates breath and attacks, he'll still get you below that magic number of 48.  What you want from him is consecutive attacks, which will usually allow an extra turn.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-11 04:46:25 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Ryan8bit:

It might be worth going there at level 4 instead of the strip SW of Tantegel simply because the inn is closer. Yeah, you'll be short some gold, but once you get to level 5 you'll make up for that. Plus, if you were to buy the small shield, the weapon shop there is so close to the inn. It'd be quicker to buy there than at Brecconary.

Right now I'm testing Rimuldar runs. While armor does have an effect, it is mostly marginal unless you're talking about the difference between being unequipped and having the leather armor, small shield, and dragon scale.

What kind of strategies do you guys use to get there?

So far, an "all out" strategy seems to be the one with the most success. Meaning that you use heal after any battle where you lost HP, and use herbs in battle rather than running if your HP is low enough for the enemy to kill you. It is a touch more time consuming though.

An interesting idea. Here are my initial counterpoints. Does going to Kol at that point really save time in the long run? When I hit level 5, I've been going to Brecconary, stay at the inn, buy as many herbs as I can while staying over 106. Rush to Rimuldar. Now with Kol's item shop so far away, it's kind of a guesstimate to how many herbs you can buy. Plus, you'll be going back to Kol anyway to buy the Full Plate, unless you want to make another dash to Rimuldar without it. I'm not terribly keen on that.

As for the rush to Rimuldar, it is as straight forward as it sounds. Take the southern path to the Swamp Cave, the six damage taken is worth the time saved. Getting to and through the cave isn't a big problem. Just must make swamp doesn't get you too low if you run into an encounter. After emerging on the other side take the eastern path down and around to get to Rimuldar. I believe you can take the fewest steps and still avoid most of the desert northeast of Rimuldar (checks...confirms, you can bypass the whole thing). Use heal if you're not hurt much, and use an herb if you are.

Quote:

How often could you beat the Dragonlord at level 18 with Str/HP long term gain?

I haven't tested out much in an actual emulator (maybe a handful of battles), but I think my simulator is very straight forward on this. When using basic strategy (meaning if your HP <= 48) you use healmore, or else you fight. The simulator basically runs the battle against the Dragonlord's two forms using this strategy 10,000 times, and it says that with that growth type (B), the odds are ~40% that you will die. Every time I've done it in an emulator, it comes down to having a meager amount of HP and no MP left.

60% success isn't bad. Although you don't have a 100% chance of making it to the Dragonlord so the success rate overall of the end game is lowered a bit.

As I see it now, here's what I'm thinking the route will be right now. This is for single segment.

Name character for HP/STR. Buy club and scale (maybe clothes?), get to level 4 in the hills southwest of Tantegel, get to level 5 on the southern strip. Buy herbs, dash to Rimuldar, get keys, die. Dash to mountain cave, get one chest, die. Get Stones of Sunlight, do money glitch. Go to Garinham, get large shield, go to Kol, get flute and full plate, dash to Rimuldar, buy sword and three keys, grind on desert strip to level 9-10. Go to southern hills, grind to level 13, which should be around 14800 for a silver shield, use return, stop in town to buy herbs and use inn. Dash to Cantlin, kill Golem, buy shield, replenish herbs, and stock up on fairy waters. Walk to Hauksness, defeat Axe Knight, get armor. Walk to and find the token, use Return. Use a fairy water and walk to Garinham, traverse the tomb and get the silver harp. Use Outside, then Return, and then a fairy water, and walk to shrine with Staff of Rain. Retrieve that, use fairy water, and walk to Rainbow Drop. Stop at the inn in Rimuldar and make the dash to Erdrick's Sword. Get out of there by any quick means, make sure MP is at max, use one more fairy water, and make the trip to the desert by Hauksness. Grind to level 18. Return. Fill up on herbs. Make sure you have a torch. Go kill the Dragonlord. You should have one more fairy water you can use if I remember right.

Places for death after the money glitch (since dying before that really isn't that big a deal):

Rimuldar area.

Only at levels 5 and 6, and maybe 7 if you're unlucky. These deaths will only really be from Warlock's Sleep lock.

Cantlin area.

Golem can kill you if you're really unlucky, and run block can get you also, especially if you're not healing to near max every battle. Once you have the armor, the walk to the token should not kill you.

Hauksness area.

If you're over aggressive in Hauksness around level 16, Starwyverns and Wizards can kill you. You should probably be a little safer here. A preemptive followed with sleep can be devastating against the Axe Knight, as is a failed Stopspell.

Charlock.

Duh.

[quote="Ryan8bit"]

It might be worth going there at level 4 instead of the strip SW of Tantegel simply because the inn is closer.  Yeah, you'll be short some gold, but once you get to level 5 you'll make up for that.  Plus, if you were to buy the small shield, the weapon shop there is so close to the inn.  It'd be quicker to buy there than at Brecconary.

Right now I'm testing Rimuldar runs.  While armor does have an effect, it is mostly marginal unless you're talking about the difference between being unequipped and having the leather armor, small shield, and dragon scale.

What kind of strategies do you guys use to get there?

So far, an "all out" strategy seems to be the one with the most success.  Meaning that you use heal after any battle where you lost HP, and use herbs in battle rather than running if your HP is low enough for the enemy to kill you.  It is a touch more time consuming though.[/quote]

An interesting idea.  Here are my initial counterpoints.  Does going to Kol at that point really save time in the long run?  When I hit level 5, I've been going to Brecconary, stay at the inn, buy as many herbs as I can while staying over 106.  Rush to Rimuldar.  Now with Kol's item shop so far away, it's kind of a guesstimate to how many herbs you can buy.  Plus, you'll be going back to Kol anyway to buy the Full Plate, unless you want to make another dash to Rimuldar without it.  I'm not terribly keen on that.

As for the rush to Rimuldar, it is as straight forward as it sounds.  Take the southern path to the Swamp Cave, the six damage taken is worth the time saved.  Getting to and through the cave isn't a big problem.  Just must make swamp doesn't get you too low if you run into an encounter.  After emerging on the other side take the eastern path down and around to get to Rimuldar.  I believe you can take the fewest steps and still avoid most of the desert northeast of Rimuldar (checks...confirms, you can bypass the whole thing).  Use heal if you're not hurt much, and use an herb if you are.

[quote][quote]
How often could you beat the Dragonlord at level 18 with Str/HP long term gain?
[/quote]

I haven't tested out much in an actual emulator (maybe a handful of battles), but I think my simulator is very straight forward on this.  When using basic strategy (meaning if your HP <= 48) you use healmore, or else you fight.  The simulator basically runs the battle against the Dragonlord's two forms using this strategy 10,000 times, and it says that with that growth type (B), the odds are ~40% that you will die.  Every time I've done it in an emulator, it comes down to having a meager amount of HP and no MP left.
[/quote]

60% success isn't bad.  Although you don't have a 100% chance of making it to the Dragonlord so the success rate overall of the end game is lowered a bit.

As I see it now, here's what I'm thinking the route will be right now.  This is for single segment.

Name character for HP/STR.  Buy club and scale (maybe clothes?), get to level 4 in the hills southwest of Tantegel, get to level 5 on the southern strip.  Buy herbs, dash to Rimuldar, get keys, die.  Dash to mountain cave, get one chest, die.  Get Stones of Sunlight, do money glitch.  Go to Garinham, get large shield, go to Kol, get flute and full plate, dash to Rimuldar, buy sword and three keys, grind on desert strip to level 9-10.  Go to southern hills, grind to level 13, which should be around 14800 for a silver shield, use return, stop in town to buy herbs and use inn.  Dash to Cantlin, kill Golem, buy shield, replenish herbs, and stock up on fairy waters.  Walk to Hauksness, defeat Axe Knight, get armor.  Walk to and find the token, use Return.  Use a fairy water and walk to Garinham, traverse the tomb and get the silver harp.  Use Outside, then Return, and then a fairy water, and walk to shrine with Staff of Rain.  Retrieve that, use fairy water, and walk to Rainbow Drop.  Stop at the inn in Rimuldar and make the dash to Erdrick's Sword.  Get out of there by any quick means, make sure MP is at max, use one more fairy water, and make the trip to the desert by Hauksness.  Grind to level 18.  Return.  Fill up on herbs.  Make sure you have a torch.  Go kill the Dragonlord.  You should have one more fairy water you can use if I remember right.

Places for death after the money glitch (since dying before that really isn't that big a deal):

Rimuldar area.

Only at levels 5 and 6, and maybe 7 if you're unlucky.  These deaths will only really be from Warlock's Sleep lock.

Cantlin area.

Golem can kill you if you're really unlucky, and run block can get you also, especially if you're not healing to near max every battle.  Once you have the armor, the walk to the token should not kill you.

Hauksness area.

If you're over aggressive in Hauksness around level 16, Starwyverns and Wizards can kill you.  You should probably be a little safer here.  A preemptive followed with sleep can be devastating against the Axe Knight, as is a failed Stopspell.

Charlock.

Duh.

puwexil

2010-01-11 06:01:08 pm

Professional Second Banana

Will the # of random battles affect the run time much, or will that not be much of an issue because you'll be grinding anyway?

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-11 06:21:47 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from puwexil:

Will the # of random battles affect the run time much, or will that not be much of an issue because you'll be grinding anyway?

Well, all grinding is being done on tiles that are 1/8 chance of random encounters occurring, which is an insanely high number.

The times you're not grinding, you're avoiding those tiles as much as possible.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-12 12:42:38 am

Highly Evolved

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Places for death after the money glitch (since dying before that really isn't that big a deal):

Rimuldar area.

Only at levels 5 and 6, and maybe 7 if you're unlucky. These deaths will only really be from Warlock's Sleep lock.

Cantlin area.

Golem can kill you if you're really unlucky, and run block can get you also, especially if you're not healing to near max every battle. Once you have the armor, the walk to the token should not kill you.

Hauksness area.

If you're over aggressive in Hauksness around level 16, Starwyverns and Wizards can kill you. You should probably be a little safer here. A preemptive followed with sleep can be devastating against the Axe Knight, as is a failed Stopspell.

Charlock.

Duh.

Forgot to add the Magiwyvern sleep lock plus run block death there on the initial rush to Cantlin with 15k gold, which just killed a practice run of over 3 hours.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-12 12:05:15 pm

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

An interesting idea. Here are my initial counterpoints. Does going to Kol at that point really save time in the long run?

I'm not certain. I'll do a test with my simulator when I get a chance, and let you know what average times and gold left is.

Quote:

As for the rush to Rimuldar, it is as straight forward as it sounds. Take the southern path to the Swamp Cave, the six damage taken is worth the time saved.

Hmm, I hadn't factored that in yet. It's possible that will assist in a run to Kol to grind as well.

Quote:

60% success isn't bad. Although you don't have a 100% chance of making it to the Dragonlord so the success rate overall of the end game is lowered a bit.

Very true, and I had done a basic simulation for that. The odds were about 72% that you would make it through at level 18 type B (type D was about 2% better). But that was not with any strategies like putting stonemen to sleep, or using herbs before running. Other things I'd like to see is how many of those deaths were from sleeplock.

So let's say that with your own intuition (which may be better than the simplistic AI I built into the simulator) that the odds of dying at 18 are 20%. That would lower your odds overall to 40% chance of success. Still not great, but doable. It now just depends on how many deaths are probable before beating the Dragonlord on average, and all the time that it takes, and whether that compares to leveling up to 19.

Also, for level 19, the odds against the Dragonlord are much increased. ~99% for type B, ~94% for type D. That extra 15HP really seals the deal as it practically ensures that you get two attacks between healmores instead of one. The 1 extra damage per attack is nice too, but not as big a deal.

Quote:

Buy club and scale (maybe clothes?)

I'd say so. It's a marginal benefit in leveling up quicker, but a benefit nonetheless. If you fight in the SW strip, you should still have enough for 4 or 5 herbs, which should be more than plenty for a Rimuldar run.

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]
An interesting idea.  Here are my initial counterpoints.  Does going to Kol at that point really save time in the long run?[/quote]

I'm not certain.  I'll do a test with my simulator when I get a chance, and let you know what average times and gold left is.

[quote]As for the rush to Rimuldar, it is as straight forward as it sounds.  Take the southern path to the Swamp Cave, the six damage taken is worth the time saved.[/quote]

Hmm, I hadn't factored that in yet.  It's possible that will assist in a run to Kol to grind as well.

[quote]60% success isn't bad.  Although you don't have a 100% chance of making it to the Dragonlord so the success rate overall of the end game is lowered a bit.[/quote]

Very true, and I had done a basic simulation for that.  The odds were about 72% that you would make it through at level 18 type B (type D was about 2% better).  But that was not with any strategies like putting stonemen to sleep, or using herbs before running.  Other things I'd like to see is how many of those deaths were from sleeplock.

So let's say that with your own intuition (which may be better than the simplistic AI I built into the simulator) that the odds of dying at 18 are 20%.  That would lower your odds overall to 40% chance of success.  Still not great, but doable.  It now just depends on how many deaths are probable before beating the Dragonlord on average, and all the time that it takes, and whether that compares to leveling up to 19.

Also, for level 19, the odds against the Dragonlord are much increased.  ~99% for type B, ~94% for type D.  That extra 15HP really seals the deal as it practically ensures that you get two attacks between healmores instead of one.  The 1 extra damage per attack is nice too, but not as big a deal.

[quote]Buy club and scale (maybe clothes?)[/quote]

I'd say so.  It's a marginal benefit in leveling up quicker, but a benefit nonetheless.  If you fight in the SW strip, you should still have enough for 4 or 5 herbs, which should be more than plenty for a Rimuldar run.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-12 01:02:33 pm

Highly Evolved

I did buy clothes in the killed run last night. Really seemed to help against Red Slimes. I only had enough for three herbs, but I still made Rimuldar with no problems.

FionordeQuester

2010-01-12 02:45:32 pm

What is this "southern strip" you mention in your newest version of your route Darkwing?

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-12 03:14:52 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from FionordeQuester:

What is this "southern strip" you mention in your newest version of your route Darkwing?

In the hills southwest of Tantegel, the strip of hills the farthest south have a different zone of enemies, the ghost through scorpion zone. Either an oversight or an easter egg of sorts. You can grind there and still be very close to the castle.

FionordeQuester

2010-01-12 03:31:43 pm

Oh, wow, didn't know that.

Carcinogen

2010-01-12 09:24:51 pm

I'm leaning towards oversight. FF1's Peninsula of Power, anyone?

Ryan8bit

2010-01-12 09:47:23 pm

I don't think it's an oversight, as they had to know where all of the zones went. It probably had more to do with laziness and thinking that having a few strips like that in the game would be inconsequential. They didn't want to bother changing the world layout just to accommodate their primitive grid system.

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

I did buy clothes in the killed run last night. Really seemed to help against Red Slimes. I only had enough for three herbs, but I still made Rimuldar with no problems.

Yeah, there's always a margin of error on the simulator. Some runs might afford you all 6, while others afford you 3. It depends on how many battles you have with monsters that have a high gold to experience ratio, and then luck on what fraction of gold you actually get.

Carcinogen

2010-01-12 10:06:28 pm

Laziness=Oversight. But that's just me.

This whole thread is a really amusing read. I'm curious to see how all the grinding is handled.

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2010-01-12 11:49:37 pm

2010-01-12 11:35:23 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Carcinogen:

Laziness=Oversight. But that's just me.

This whole thread is a really amusing read. I'm curious to see how all the grinding is handled.

With music being played in the background. :p

EDIT: And I hope "amusing" in a good way.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-12 11:49:10 pm

Highly Evolved

I did another trial run and it basically ended in near the same place, but with less infuriating results.

I lost to the Axe Knight.

On the surface, it ain't so bad since I had already spent my money. The cool thing is that on the current route, you hit 14800 right around hitting level 13. In this run, I hit 14800 one battle before I hit 5500 exp.

The issue I had was from Cantlin to Hauksness. I took a ton of damage on the way. I was down to 12 MP on the Axe Knight (bare minimum on current level, 2 for Stopspell and 8 for Return). I had to use an herb to heal before battle. One less herb and the Axe Knight only cast Sleep twice. I also got hit harder since I didn't have the AGI boost on this character. This makes the Axe Knight fight more dangerous. Herbs only match damage and don't exceed it. At least in this run.

Back to the point, a death at the Axe Knight isn't necessarily a run killer. It'll take about two minutes or so to stock back up and make it back to Hauksness. Here's my problem. I don't have enough money. Gold use is so efficient that I was at 40 gold at the end. I did have to use all herbs against Golem, so that's 144 there. 100 gold for the inn, filled up on fairy waters. Five at 38 (or was it a bit less) a pop is 190 gold. 400 gold gained from the large shield and I'm good.

Now that I think of it, filling up on fairy waters poses a problem. I wasn't planning on using one before the token, and my inventory is full, so that's no good. I'll only be able to get four. Although, I could just return to Tantegel, use a fairy water there and stay at the inn in Brecconary. That actually should be faster than walking back to Hauksness. This will also save the 100 on the inn in case I die and have to restock. I'll have an extra 47 gold from that. ({100-6}/2) I will not be deprived of magic either and have a full stock of herbs.

I did another trial run and it basically ended in near the same place, but with less infuriating results.

I lost to the Axe Knight.

On the surface, it ain't so bad since I had already spent my money.  The cool thing is that on the current route, you hit 14800 right around hitting level 13.  In this run, I hit 14800 one battle before I hit 5500 exp.

The issue I had was from Cantlin to Hauksness.  I took a ton of damage on the way.  I was down to 12 MP on the Axe Knight (bare minimum on current level,  2 for Stopspell and 8 for Return).  I had to use an herb to heal before battle.  One less herb and the Axe Knight only cast Sleep twice.  I also got hit harder since I didn't have the AGI boost on this character.  This makes the Axe Knight fight more dangerous.  Herbs only match damage and don't exceed it.  At least in this run.

Back to the point, a death at the Axe Knight isn't necessarily a run killer.  It'll take about two minutes or so to stock back up and make it back to Hauksness.  Here's my problem.  I don't have enough money.  Gold use is so efficient that I was at 40 gold at the end.  I did have to use all herbs against Golem, so that's 144 there.  100 gold for the inn, filled up on fairy waters.  Five at 38 (or was it a bit less) a pop is 190 gold.  400 gold gained from the large shield and I'm good.

Now that I think of it, filling up on fairy waters poses a problem.  I wasn't planning on using one before the token, and my inventory is full, so that's no good.  I'll only be able to get four.  Although, I could just return to Tantegel, use a fairy water there and stay at the inn in Brecconary.  That actually should be faster than walking back to Hauksness.  This will also save the 100 on the inn in case I die and have to restock.  I'll have an extra 47 gold from that.  ({100-6}/2)  I will not be deprived of magic either and have a full stock of herbs.