Dragon Warrior Run

2010-01-13 02:37:41 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

I was down to 12 MP on the Axe Knight (bare minimum on current level, 2 for Stopspell and 8 for Return).

UJERTUTGFIJDAGJRJTYJ GOD DOUBLE DAMNIT YOUR MONEY IS ALREADY SPENT, IT'S OKAY TO DIE TO RETURN HOME AT THAT POINT

You can even spend 106 gold to get Wings in Rimuldar (two keys), or just pay 70 in Cantlin for some...

As for Fairy Water, you should only need those 4 or 5. Two to trade up the Staff of Rain, one to walk to Hauksness for Erdrick's Armor, one more to do the other great big grinding segment of 13 to 18 in the Hauksness region. Once you hit level 15 you can just cast Repel instead. You don't need that MP for healing because I think relying on Erdrick's Armor for sustainable grinding is better than harder enemies for minimal EXP improvement. Darkwing Duck, I saw your post on GameFAQs and your leveling up to 18 seemed to go somewhat quick, how exactly did you accomplishment? What "hard zones" are you talking about?

Golem is actually pretty tough, he'd be a big nerve-wracker for a single-segment run IMO. I'm tempted to pick a STR+AGI name, which would be f, v, L or (. The extra defense might help gain herb leverage versus Golem and Axe Knight. But Darkwing had trouble killing the Dragonlord because ( only has 106 HP at level 18, which isn't really enough to work with. For a segmented run, I think you'd want this guy though. Starting on Wolflords one level sooner would make a huge difference in grinding time, and any failed attempts on the Dragonlord won't be kept for segmentation. (I refuse to call him L because I haven't seen Death Note, and that seems like a fruity name)

Can I also suggest that we kill that free Green Dragon in the Rimuldar tunnel because he's easy experience?...Nah, he's too out of the way. I think.

IF ONLY HE RESPAWNED LIKE THE AXE KNIGHT PLANNING THIS RUN WOULD BE SO UNBELIEVEABLY EASY ARRRRRGHG

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]
 I was down to 12 MP on the Axe Knight (bare minimum on current level,  2 for Stopspell and 8 for Return).  
[/quote]

UJERTUTGFIJDAGJRJTYJ GOD DOUBLE DAMNIT YOUR MONEY IS ALREADY SPENT, IT'S OKAY TO DIE TO RETURN HOME AT THAT POINT

You can even spend 106 gold to get Wings in Rimuldar (two keys), or just pay 70 in Cantlin for some...

As for Fairy Water, you should only need those 4 or 5. Two to trade up the Staff of Rain, one to walk to Hauksness for Erdrick's Armor, one more to do the other great big grinding segment of 13 to 18 in the Hauksness region. Once you hit level 15 you can just cast Repel instead. You don't need that MP for healing because I think relying on Erdrick's Armor for sustainable grinding is better than harder enemies for minimal EXP improvement. Darkwing Duck, I saw your post on GameFAQs and your leveling up to 18 seemed to go somewhat quick, how exactly did you accomplishment? What "hard zones" are you talking about?

Golem is actually pretty tough, he'd be a big nerve-wracker for a single-segment run IMO. I'm tempted to pick a STR+AGI name, which would be f, v, L or (. The extra defense might help gain herb leverage versus Golem and Axe Knight. But Darkwing had trouble killing the Dragonlord because ( only has 106 HP at level 18, which isn't really enough to work with. For a segmented run, I think you'd want this guy though. Starting on Wolflords one level sooner would make a huge difference in grinding time, and any failed attempts on the Dragonlord won't be kept for segmentation. (I refuse to call him L because I haven't seen Death Note, and that seems like a fruity name)

Can I also suggest that we kill that free Green Dragon in the Rimuldar tunnel because he's easy experience?...Nah, he's too out of the way. I think.

IF ONLY HE RESPAWNED LIKE THE AXE KNIGHT PLANNING THIS RUN WOULD BE SO UNBELIEVEABLY EASY ARRRRRGHG

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-13 03:04:58 am

Highly Evolved

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

I was down to 12 MP on the Axe Knight (bare minimum on current level, 2 for Stopspell and 8 for Return).

UJERTUTGFIJDAGJRJTYJ GOD DOUBLE DAMNIT YOUR MONEY IS ALREADY SPENT, IT'S OKAY TO DIE TO RETURN HOME AT THAT POINT

I guess so. Hadn't thought of that.

Quote:

You can even spend 106 gold to get Wings in Rimuldar (two keys), or just pay 70 in Cantlin for some...

As for Fairy Water, you should only need those 4 or 5. Two to trade up the Staff of Rain, one to walk to Hauksness for Erdrick's Armor, one more to do the other great big grinding segment of 13 to 18 in the Hauksness region. Once you hit level 15 you can just cast Repel instead. You don't need that MP for healing because I think relying on Erdrick's Armor for sustainable grinding is better than harder enemies for minimal EXP improvement. Darkwing Duck, I saw your post on GameFAQs and your leveling up to 18 seemed to go somewhat quick, how exactly did you accomplishment? What "hard zones" are you talking about?

On fairy water. One to travel from Tantegel to Garinham. You get the harp, warp out since enemies won't kill you. Return to Tantegel. Use one to get Staff of Rain. The water will run out before you get to the marsh cave, so you'll need two. After you get the Rainbow Drop and obtain the sword, die or warp to Tantegel, and you'll need one more to get to Hauksness. That's four. As for using Repel, at level 18, you have exactly 100 MP. You won't be able to use Repel the last time walking to Charlock. That's the fifth fairy water. Maybe I'll just forgo the second use during the Staff of Rain segment.

As for leveling in Hauksness, here's my strategy. There are three enemy zones within one step of each other. First is the northern desert area, which contains the same enemies as the southern island where the Drop is, Goldman, Wolflord, Metal Scorpion, Wraith, and Wyvern. The southern part of the desert has a harder zone, Wyvern, Rogue Scorpion, Wraith Knight, Knight, and Demon Knight. Inside Hauksness itself is Werewolf, Wizard, Green Dragon, and Starwyvern (I believe Starwyvern is doubled here, removing Demon Knight from the overworld equivalent). The boundary for the two outside zones is horizontal, and is easy to see. Using Hauksness, every tile on the city's row and above is the easier zone, and the tiles below that are the harder zone.

So what I do is at level 13, start grinding in the northern area, when I have near full HP, I step down one step and walk along the northern tip of the southern zone. Once my HP dips to maybe half or so, I take one step up and I'm in the northern zone. Erdrick's Armor, Silver Shield, Erdrick's Sword, and Level 13 make the hardest enemy in that zone, the Wyvern, a patsy, so while the encounter rate is high, your damage intake is low, so you'll still gain HP, enough to where you'll fill up and you can tackle the southern zone again.

At the highest grinding level, 17, I'm doing the same thing but staying in Hauksness as long as I can, moving to the desert tiles on the northwest edge of the city, walking out when under 60, and walking along the row just south of the city. Knights, Wraith Knights and the scorpions are easy at level 17, and you fill up HP. I never need to use heal, and I only really use stopspell on Starwyverns. I always run from Demon Knights, too. They're never worth the 25% evade.

Quote:

Golem is actually pretty tough, he'd be a big nerve-wracker for a single-segment run IMO. I'm tempted to pick a STR+AGI name, which would be f, v, L or (. The extra defense might help gain herb leverage versus Golem and Axe Knight. But Darkwing had trouble killing the Dragonlord because ( only has 106 HP at level 18, which isn't really enough to work with. For a segmented run, I think you'd want this guy though. Starting on Wolflords one level sooner would make a huge difference in grinding time, and any failed attempts on the Dragonlord won't be kept for segmentation. (I refuse to call him L because I haven't seen Death Note, and that seems like a fruity name)

I used "(" myself when I tried that. I could never get a chance for two attacks before Healmore at 106. HP/STR gives you 115 at level 18, and that may be enough to get lucky against the Dragonlord.

Quote:

Can I also suggest that we kill that free Green Dragon in the Rimuldar tunnel because he's easy experience?...Nah, he's too out of the way. I think.
IF ONLY HE RESPAWNED LIKE THE AXE KNIGHT PLANNING THIS RUN WOULD BE SO UNBELIEVEABLY EASY ARRRRRGHG

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
[quote="Darkwing Duck"]
 I was down to 12 MP on the Axe Knight (bare minimum on current level,  2 for Stopspell and 8 for Return).  
[/quote]

UJERTUTGFIJDAGJRJTYJ GOD DOUBLE DAMNIT YOUR MONEY IS ALREADY SPENT, IT'S OKAY TO DIE TO RETURN HOME AT THAT POINT[/quote]
I guess so.  Hadn't thought of that.

[quote]You can even spend 106 gold to get Wings in Rimuldar (two keys), or just pay 70 in Cantlin for some...

As for Fairy Water, you should only need those 4 or 5. Two to trade up the Staff of Rain, one to walk to Hauksness for Erdrick's Armor, one more to do the other great big grinding segment of 13 to 18 in the Hauksness region. Once you hit level 15 you can just cast Repel instead. You don't need that MP for healing because I think relying on Erdrick's Armor for sustainable grinding is better than harder enemies for minimal EXP improvement. Darkwing Duck, I saw your post on GameFAQs and your leveling up to 18 seemed to go somewhat quick, how exactly did you accomplishment? What "hard zones" are you talking about?[/quote]

On fairy water.  One to travel from Tantegel to Garinham.  You get the harp, warp out since enemies won't kill you.  Return to Tantegel.  Use one to get Staff of Rain.  The water will run out before you get to the marsh cave, so you'll need two.  After you get the Rainbow Drop and obtain the sword, die or warp to Tantegel, and you'll need one more to get to Hauksness.  That's four.  As for using Repel, at level 18, you have exactly 100 MP.  You won't be able to use Repel the last time walking to Charlock.  That's the fifth fairy water.  Maybe I'll just forgo the second use during the Staff of Rain segment.

As for leveling in Hauksness, here's my strategy.  There are three enemy zones within one step of each other.  First is the northern desert area, which contains the same enemies as the southern island where the Drop is, Goldman, Wolflord, Metal Scorpion, Wraith, and Wyvern.  The southern part of the desert has a harder zone, Wyvern, Rogue Scorpion, Wraith Knight, Knight, and Demon Knight.  Inside Hauksness itself is Werewolf, Wizard, Green Dragon, and Starwyvern (I believe Starwyvern is doubled here, removing Demon Knight from the overworld equivalent).  The boundary for the two outside zones is horizontal, and is easy to see.  Using Hauksness, every tile on the city's row and above is the easier zone, and the tiles below that are the harder zone.

So what I do is at level 13, start grinding in the northern area, when I have near full HP, I step down one step and walk along the northern tip of the southern zone.  Once my HP dips to maybe half or so, I take one step up and I'm in the northern zone.  Erdrick's Armor, Silver Shield, Erdrick's Sword, and Level 13 make the hardest enemy in that zone, the Wyvern, a patsy, so while the encounter rate is high, your damage intake is low, so you'll still gain HP, enough to where you'll fill up and you can tackle the southern zone again.

At the highest grinding level, 17, I'm doing the same thing but staying in Hauksness as long as I can, moving to the desert tiles on the northwest edge of the city, walking out when under 60, and walking along the row just south of the city.  Knights, Wraith Knights and the scorpions are easy at level 17, and you fill up HP.  I never need to use heal, and I only really use stopspell on Starwyverns.  I always run from Demon Knights, too.  They're never worth the 25% evade.

[quote]Golem is actually pretty tough, he'd be a big nerve-wracker for a single-segment run IMO. I'm tempted to pick a STR+AGI name, which would be f, v, L or (. The extra defense might help gain herb leverage versus Golem and Axe Knight. But Darkwing had trouble killing the Dragonlord because ( only has 106 HP at level 18, which isn't really enough to work with. For a segmented run, I think you'd want this guy though. Starting on Wolflords one level sooner would make a huge difference in grinding time, and any failed attempts on the Dragonlord won't be kept for segmentation. (I refuse to call him L because I haven't seen Death Note, and that seems like a fruity name)[/quote]
I used "(" myself when I tried that.  I could never get a chance for two attacks before Healmore at 106.  HP/STR gives you 115 at level 18, and that may be enough to get lucky against the Dragonlord.

[quote]Can I also suggest that we kill that free Green Dragon in the Rimuldar tunnel because he's easy experience?...Nah, he's too out of the way. I think.
IF ONLY HE RESPAWNED LIKE THE AXE KNIGHT PLANNING THIS RUN WOULD BE SO UNBELIEVEABLY EASY ARRRRRGHG
[/quote]

:D

Ryan8bit

2010-01-13 09:47:31 am

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

I also got hit harder since I didn't have the AGI boost on this character. This makes the Axe Knight fight more dangerous.

Quote from ShinerCCC:

I'm tempted to pick a STR+AGI name, which would be f, v, L or (. The extra defense might help gain herb leverage versus Golem and Axe Knight.

Ok, I just want to clear something up here. If you're talking fighting at level 13, the difference in agility is 2, which equates to 1 extra defense point, which equates to 1/4 - 1/2 less damage per attack. Since on average he probably gets around 4 attacks, is an extra 1-2 damage total really a deal breaker here? I'm thinking not.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-13 08:30:50 pm

I just tested the trip to Rimuldar going through the swamp instead of going around it. I was surprised to find that it only shaves off about 1 or 2 seconds.

I think the reason is because the terrain is rougher and you tend to get in at least one extra battle taking the swamp way. So you weigh the 20 step 4-5 second difference vs. ~3 seconds to get in an encounter and run, and losing 6 hp.

What do you think, Darkwing?

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-13 11:23:18 pm

Highly Evolved

You made sure that the character took the fewest possible steps in the desert, right?

I guess that route's benefit is negligible. I don't see any need to change either way, though. 6 HP isn't a detriment to making it to Rimuldar.

ShinerCCC

2010-01-14 04:41:06 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

I think that desert patch on Rimuldar island...IIRC you have to cross across one square of it. But by doing that you can go straight south and hug the mountains. One square doesn't seem too bad.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-14 01:18:49 pm

Quote from ShinerCCC:

I think that desert patch on Rimuldar island...IIRC you have to cross across one square of it. But by doing that you can go straight south and hug the mountains. One square doesn't seem too bad.

Nah, you don't need to hit it.

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

You made sure that the character took the fewest possible steps in the desert, right?

Yep. I took the top of the trees. For both paths I took the one with the least resistance.

Quote:

I guess that route's benefit is negligible. I don't see any need to change either way, though. 6 HP isn't a detriment to making it to Rimuldar.

I think so too. Especially since most of the damage you take on this run (if you flee from enemies) is from the swamps. Given that an average heal is about 13.5 HP, 26 damage ensures that you'll probably heal to capacity and not needlessly. Just 20 damage might leave you questioning if you should heal or not (even though with most strategies it's not an issue).

Do you guys run from all enemies up until the marsh cave? I'm going to do some testing as to which is more worthwhile, fighting or running. I get the feeling that running up until the marsh cave may be more prudent, but once you start heading to and through the mountain cave it might not be a bad idea because it could help in whittling down your HP so that when you have to die it doesn't take so long.

Also, which chest do you typically go for as your one chest in the mountain cave? Do you go for the herb one? Do you then try to go to B2 to take advantage of harder hitting enemies? Do you fight when trying to die?

Another question I have is how you decide when to stop grabbing from the infinite chest. How much gold do you want to have?

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
I think that desert patch on Rimuldar island...IIRC you have to cross across one square of it. But by doing that you can go straight south and hug the mountains. One square doesn't seem too bad.
[/quote]

Nah, you don't need to hit it.

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]
You made sure that the character took the fewest possible steps in the desert, right?[/quote]

Yep.  I took the top of the trees.  For both paths I took the one with the least resistance.

[quote]I guess that route's benefit is negligible.  I don't see any need to change either way, though.  6 HP isn't a detriment to making it to Rimuldar.[/quote]

I think so too.  Especially since most of the damage you take on this run (if you flee from enemies) is from the swamps.  Given that an average heal is about 13.5 HP, 26 damage ensures that you'll probably heal to capacity and not needlessly.  Just 20 damage might leave you questioning if you should heal or not (even though with most strategies it's not an issue).

Do you guys run from all enemies up until the marsh cave?  I'm going to do some testing as to which is more worthwhile, fighting or running.  I get the feeling that running up until the marsh cave may be more prudent, but once you start heading to and through the mountain cave it might not be a bad idea because it could help in whittling down your HP so that when you have to die it doesn't take so long.

Also, which chest do you typically go for as your one chest in the mountain cave?  Do you go for the herb one?  Do you then try to go to B2 to take advantage of harder hitting enemies?  Do you fight when trying to die?

Another question I have is how you decide when to stop grabbing from the infinite chest.  How much gold do you want to have?

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-14 01:31:07 pm

Highly Evolved

I've found losing health in the marsh cave has been an issue for me. I was thinking of trekking straight across the swamp before it. I think it's 4 tiles for 8 damage, which is a lot.

As for dying, I hope I run into a couple of magicians who use hurt. Getting the herb is the fastest and also the easiest to get without using the torch.

My policy currently about running is that if I'm not grinding, I'm running. That may change for the mountain cave, though. When trying to die there, though, you have to fight, as trying to fail to run really isn't the best.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-14 03:14:27 pm

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

I've found losing health in the marsh cave has been an issue for me. I was thinking of trekking straight across the swamp before it. I think it's 4 tiles for 8 damage, which is a lot.

Do you mean the mountain cave?

Maybe getting to the next floor down isn't such a bad idea because it's a drastic increase in enemies who will use hurt and just do a lot more damage. Or even a warlock who could just put you to sleep and then slay you, which would be pretty fast. You don't really need a torch, you could just bump around until you find it.

Quote:

That may change for the mountain cave, though. When trying to die there, though, you have to fight, as trying to fail to run really isn't the best.

Oh, I know running isn't an option. I was thinking of using an item that will negate your turn so that you wouldn't actually beat the enemy and end up wandering around again. I'm not sure if it's even necessary, but do you end up beating some of the enemies you run into?

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]
I've found losing health in the marsh cave has been an issue for me.  I was thinking of trekking straight across the swamp before it.  I think it's 4 tiles for 8 damage, which is a lot.[/quote]

Do you mean the mountain cave?

Maybe getting to the next floor down isn't such a bad idea because it's a drastic increase in enemies who will use hurt and just do a lot more damage.  Or even a warlock who could just put you to sleep and then slay you, which would be pretty fast.  You don't really need a torch, you could just bump around until you find it.

[quote]That may change for the mountain cave, though.  When trying to die there, though, you have to fight, as trying to fail to run really isn't the best.[/quote]

Oh, I know running isn't an option.  I was thinking of using an item that will negate your turn so that you wouldn't actually beat the enemy and end up wandering around again.  I'm not sure if it's even necessary, but do you end up beating some of the enemies you run into?

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-14 03:37:06 pm

Highly Evolved

Yeah, I meant the mountain cave. Fight is the fastest I think since I don't have any items to spare really.

I'm getting 5500 gold from the limitless treasure box. 800 for shield, 1500 for sword, 3000 for armor, 150 for keys, and the rest for herbs or inn. Starting the grind from level 5 to 13 nets me around 14800 gold, a perfect amount for the silver shield.

ShinerCCC

2010-01-14 06:25:07 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

I find the success rate for escaping in this game is pretty high, when you need it to be, except for that sprint to Rimuldar with all the cash >_>

Before the marsh cave, I actually fight enemies because at level 5 I can usually bash in a Ghost in one hit. It still contributes towards the inevitable EXP total but might just be faster in the long run to run away so we can get to Rimuldar sooner. In the marsh cave, I always run from enemies. I could take them out with 2 uses of Hurt, sure, but I'd rather have the one Heal. Once I'm above ground, it's definitely all running. Warlocks are pretty much the only threat though, just make sure you have high health because Wolves can eat you up pretty quick.

In the mountain cave, I cut across the swamp and then I grab the Herb. The enemies are too easy to kill me so I head downstairs after that and plunder as many chests as I can (in the dark) before I'm dead. Warlocks are guaranteed to kill you, pretty much, your Hurt can't possibly hope to kill them fast enough. In addition, getting a second chest saves a lot of time because you can grab the Stones of Sunlight on the way out (and get hilarious garbage text) instead of having to go the basement and walk all the way back out to make the glitch work. Grabbing the Torch is important IMO (first chest in the top left corner, the one to the left of it is the useless Fighter's Ring), I find I need light to navigate Charlock's tunnels because there are notches on the second basement and you can't use bonking to find your way around. You get one in Garinham before entering the tomb from the chest so you can use that one for the final trip to Charlock to finish the game. Everywhere else can be managed in the dark although Garin's Tomb has a few notches but I find I can nail them.

You should only take 5300 gold from the bottomless chest, less if you're going to have kickback from Leather Armor, Clothes or a Small Shield. You don't need 150 for keys immediately once you get to Rimuldar, you can use your grinding money to afford those. Herbs are more helpful in the early stages of the big grind on the island, if you run out of MP and still need to make it home they can save your life. You have to buy them in Garinham though, they're too out of the way in Kol and Rimuldar doesn't even have a tool shop. So, just the freebie herb you get in the mountain cave should suffice. Time on the chest needs to be minimized so you can start increasing EXP again.

I find the success rate for escaping in this game is pretty high, when you need it to be, except for that sprint to Rimuldar with all the cash >_>

Before the marsh cave, I actually fight enemies because at level 5 I can usually bash in a Ghost in one hit. It still contributes towards the inevitable EXP total but might just be faster in the long run to run away so we can get to Rimuldar sooner. In the marsh cave, I always run from enemies. I could take them out with 2 uses of Hurt, sure, but I'd rather have the one Heal. Once I'm above ground, it's definitely all running. Warlocks are pretty much the only threat though, just make sure you have high health because Wolves can eat you up pretty quick.

In the mountain cave, I cut across the swamp and then I grab the Herb. The enemies are too easy to kill me so I head downstairs after that and plunder as many chests as I can (in the dark) before I'm dead. Warlocks are guaranteed to kill you, pretty much, your Hurt can't possibly hope to kill them fast enough. In addition, getting a second chest saves a lot of time because you can grab the Stones of Sunlight on the way out (and get hilarious garbage text) instead of having to go the basement and walk all the way back out to make the glitch work. Grabbing the Torch is important IMO (first chest in the top left corner, the one to the left of it is the useless Fighter's Ring), I find I need light to navigate Charlock's tunnels because there are notches on the second basement and you can't use bonking to find your way around. You get one in Garinham before entering the tomb from the chest so you can use that one for the final trip to Charlock to finish the game. Everywhere else can be managed in the dark although Garin's Tomb has a few notches but I find I can nail them.

You should only take 5300 gold from the bottomless chest, less if you're going to have kickback from Leather Armor, Clothes or a Small Shield. You don't need 150 for keys immediately once you get to Rimuldar, you can use your grinding money to afford those. Herbs are more helpful in the early stages of the big grind on the island, if you run out of MP and still need to make it home they can save your life. You have to buy them in Garinham though, they're too out of the way in Kol and Rimuldar doesn't even have a tool shop. So, just the freebie herb you get in the mountain cave should suffice. Time on the chest needs to be minimized so you can start increasing EXP again.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-23 01:34:38 pm

*chirp*

You guys still working on this?

I've done a few more tests on some things.

On fight vs. flight when trying to reach somewhere (primarily the mountain cave), the only time it's worthwhile to fight is if once you've made an encounter if you make as much or more experience/minute as you would fighting in Rimuldar. Since fighting right outside Rimuldar at level 5 with good equipment has an experience rate of ~25/minute, that would make fighting most monsters on your various trips to activate the gold bug not worthwhile. Fighting a slime would be about an extra 15xp/min, so they're not worth it. I haven't made determinations for each individual enemy, but it would seem that fighting the enemies on level 1 of the mountain cave is worth it, especially since any damage they give you brings you that much closer to a quicker death.

My other calculations say that you definitely should go to B2 to die, and collecting as many chests as possible is the best benefit. My personal choice would be to go to the closest chest first, even though it only gives 10-17 gold which will be cut in half when you die. But as soon as you reach that chest, you are free to die asap. The torch doesn't seem that worthwhile because you could probably just buy one while you buy herbs later and that would be quicker. Plus, the fighter's ring next to it is more of a burden than a benefit. So if you reach the 10-17 gold chest, I figure that going to the chest that's 100-131 gold is your next best bet. Sure the gold will be halved and it won't make you as much per minute as pulling infinite chests, but it's a lot better than the torch, and imagine if by the 1/32 chance you got the Death Necklace. I know, it's a long shot, but how awesome would that be? It would shave off several minutes of chest pulling time if it did happen.

Another thing I've been weighing out is if it's worthwhile to stop in Kol before making the second trip to Rimuldar. The trip itself takes about an extra couple minutes, but really lessens the risk. My simulator shows that the risk of making it to Rimuldar with the best equipment you can buy is only ~1.4%, which is a lot better than trying to make it there without the full plate which is ~9.3%. But is that extra risk worth saving 2-3 minutes? It depends on how mad you'd be throwing away an hour of play trying to do that in case you did die.

Right now I'm trying to find out at what point the gold bug becomes worthwhile in terms of shorter times. On average, it would seem that it takes ~34 minutes from start (leaving Tantegel to reach Rimuldar) to finish (reaching Rimuldar and purchasing the Broad Sword). My rough estimate would be that 34 minutes would be made up by level 8 or 9.

*chirp*

You guys still working on this?

I've done a few more tests on some things.

On fight vs. flight when trying to reach somewhere (primarily the mountain cave), the only time it's worthwhile to fight is if once you've made an encounter if you make as much or more experience/minute as you would fighting in Rimuldar.  Since fighting right outside Rimuldar at level 5 with good equipment has an experience rate of ~25/minute, that would make fighting most monsters on your various trips to activate the gold bug not worthwhile.  Fighting a slime would be about an extra 15xp/min, so they're not worth it.  I haven't made determinations for each individual enemy, but it would seem that fighting the enemies on level 1 of the mountain cave is worth it, especially since any damage they give you brings you that much closer to a quicker death.

My other calculations say that you definitely should go to B2 to die, and collecting as many chests as possible is the best benefit.  My personal choice would be to go to the closest chest first, even though it only gives 10-17 gold which will be cut in half when you die.  But as soon as you reach that chest, you are free to die asap.  The torch doesn't seem that worthwhile because you could probably just buy one while you buy herbs later and that would be quicker.  Plus, the fighter's ring next to it is more of a burden than a benefit.  So if you reach the 10-17 gold chest, I figure that going to the chest that's 100-131 gold is your next best bet.  Sure the gold will be halved and it won't make you as much per minute as pulling infinite chests, but it's a lot better than the torch, and imagine if by the 1/32 chance you got the Death Necklace.  I know, it's a long shot, but how awesome would that be?  It would shave off several minutes of chest pulling time if it did happen.

Another thing I've been weighing out is if it's worthwhile to stop in Kol before making the second trip to Rimuldar.  The trip itself takes about an extra couple minutes, but really lessens the risk.  My simulator shows that the risk of making it to Rimuldar with the best equipment you can buy is only ~1.4%, which is a lot better than trying to make it there without the full plate which is ~9.3%.  But is that extra risk worth saving 2-3 minutes?  It depends on how mad you'd be throwing away an hour of play trying to do that in case you did die.

Right now I'm trying to find out at what point the gold bug becomes worthwhile in terms of shorter times.  On average, it would seem that it takes ~34 minutes from start (leaving Tantegel to reach Rimuldar) to finish (reaching Rimuldar and purchasing the Broad Sword).  My rough estimate would be that 34 minutes would be made up by level 8 or 9.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-23 02:39:19 pm

Highly Evolved

I haven't done any work on it recently. Still plan to do it eventually, though. I may have some window to try some recorded runs in February.

The fight vs. flight thing makes sense.

I was never able to walk terribly far after getting the first chest in the mountain cave before dying. I can see getting at least two chests so that you can just walk outside after getting the stones, but what's the time difference between dying right away after getting the herb in the mountain cave and walking to the stones and walking back to the treasury versus walking through the mountain cave to get at least two chests?

You MUST go to Kol eventually, so going there before the second trip to Rimuldar seems to be best way to do it and reduce risk.

For testing on the gold bug, we human players cannot do perfect menu manipulation every time so I hope you have taken that into account.

ShinerCCC

2010-01-23 04:57:00 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

My empirical data of "1000 gold every 4 minutes" (or 250/min) doing the gold bug was done on console, and I was far from perfect. Probably slowed down about every 10th pull. We can go by that, and it works since the plan is to reach 5250 gold (but on the off chance I get a Death Necklace, I'd only have to get up to 4000...it sells for 1250 right? I've never seen it, but it would clearly save 5 entire minutes! Probably essential for a segmented run but I'll investigate this on emulator to see how to manipulate the RNG into giving it up)

You have to go to Kol for the Fairy Flute anyway, and the weapon shop is only a few steps away. Even in a segmented run, I'd buy the armour there, especially if I had to get the Death Necklace first! Ryan, that %risk seems kind of low, I recall it usually takes me 3 or 4 attempts to get to Rimuldar without dying, but it's always Warlock sleeplock that ruins it so I guess there's a 1 in 5 chance of that happening.

You're right, I usually buy Herbs in Garinham one way or another, whether it's before buying the Large Shield (safety nets for Rimuldar, although you already have one for free) or before I raid Garin's Tomb, so buying a Torch there is possible. But that's a lot more text to sit through, and one more chest pull (8 gold) if that's how the money is gained. The Torch chest seems to be the closest one on B2 of the Mountain Cave. But how fast it actually takes to die in there is another factor to consider in all this. Getting killed on B1 would take longer because you'd have to offer poor resistance. On B2 anything can get the job done in no time flat. Wait, forget the Torch, you could use Radiant instead for either Garin's Tomb or the Erdrick's Sword run. After Garin's Tomb you'd probably use the Inn anyway after using Outside (and to increase your chances of not getting ganked on the way to Golem), in Charlock you're going to die anyway so being down 3 MP won't hurt too badly, especially if it doesn't reduce how much you can cast Heal. It's definitely one less Sleep though.

Consider this scenario: In a single segment run, after pulling the Herb chest, you hit B2 and get an encounter with a Warlock before you reach another chest. Do you let him kill you and take the long walk to the Stones of Sunlight and back, or try to escape and hit one more chest? Thinking about it in my head, running away for the chest seems faster. Plus, I still really want to see the garbage text.

I'm kind of busy with school these days and it turns out this USB capture card Tyebo left with me is missing a power cord, so I'm hooped for now. I'm going to email the company to see if they can send me one, because I have no idea where said power cord went, the card was basically sitting in a bag untouched for 2 years. I'll leave the running to Darkwing if I have to, but man I'm still stoked about live commentary for every segment.

My empirical data of "1000 gold every 4 minutes" (or 250/min) doing the gold bug was done on console, and I was far from perfect. Probably slowed down about every 10th pull. We can go by that, and it works since the plan is to reach 5250 gold (but on the off chance I get a Death Necklace, I'd only have to get up to 4000...it sells for 1250 right? I've never seen it, but it would clearly save 5 entire minutes! Probably essential for a segmented run but I'll investigate this on emulator to see how to manipulate the RNG into giving it up)

You have to go to Kol for the Fairy Flute anyway, and the weapon shop is only a few steps away. Even in a segmented run, I'd buy the armour there, especially if I had to get the Death Necklace first! Ryan, that %risk seems kind of low, I recall it usually takes me 3 or 4 attempts to get to Rimuldar without dying, but it's always Warlock sleeplock that ruins it so I guess there's a 1 in 5 chance of that happening.

You're right, I usually buy Herbs in Garinham one way or another, whether it's before buying the Large Shield (safety nets for Rimuldar, although you already have one for free) or before I raid Garin's Tomb, so buying a Torch there is possible. But that's a lot more text to sit through, and one more chest pull (8 gold) if that's how the money is gained. The Torch chest seems to be the closest one on B2 of the Mountain Cave. But how fast it actually takes to die in there is another factor to consider in all this. Getting killed on B1 would take longer because you'd have to offer poor resistance. On B2 anything can get the job done in no time flat. Wait, forget the Torch, you could use Radiant instead for either Garin's Tomb or the Erdrick's Sword run. After Garin's Tomb you'd probably use the Inn anyway after using Outside (and to increase your chances of not getting ganked on the way to Golem), in Charlock you're going to die anyway so being down 3 MP won't hurt too badly, especially if it doesn't reduce how much you can cast Heal. It's definitely one less Sleep though.

Consider this scenario: In a single segment run, after pulling the Herb chest, you hit B2 and get an encounter with a Warlock before you reach another chest. Do you let him kill you and take the long walk to the Stones of Sunlight and back, or try to escape and hit one more chest? Thinking about it in my head, running away for the chest seems faster. Plus, I still really want to see the garbage text.

I'm kind of busy with school these days and it turns out this USB capture card Tyebo left with me is missing a power cord, so I'm hooped for now. I'm going to email the company to see if they can send me one, because I have no idea where said power cord went, the card was basically sitting in a bag untouched for 2 years. I'll leave the running to Darkwing if I have to, but man I'm still stoked about live commentary for every segment.

Darkwing Duck

2010-01-23 06:14:32 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from ShinerCCC:

I'm kind of busy with school these days and it turns out this USB capture card Tyebo left with me is missing a power cord, so I'm hooped for now. I'm going to email the company to see if they can send me one, because I have no idea where said power cord went, the card was basically sitting in a bag untouched for 2 years. I'll leave the running to Darkwing if I have to, but man I'm still stoked about live commentary for every segment.

Hey, do the segmented and I'll do the SS. Leaves me more room for error.

And I still say we should "race" this at next year's Magfest.

ShinerCCC

2010-01-24 06:25:41 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

If I go to MAGFest I absolutely want to do this above all else.

Wait, don't they have DDR tournaments there too?

Ryan8bit

2010-01-24 09:22:13 pm

Damn, I had a long reply typed up earlier today and was sure I submitted it, but I guess I lost it. Bummer.

I'll try and be more brief this time, which is probably a good idea anyways! Smiley

-The time difference to getting the stones first and last is about 55-60 seconds. Dying on B2 on average should take a lot less, like in the range of 20 seconds.
-For Kol, I was considering the option of visiting there at LV 4 to grind because it's closer to the inn and may save time. I have to run some sims to make sure that getting the appropriate gold to buy 2 keys would not take longer, although it probably will. Otherwise you guys are probably right that it makes sense to go there.
-For all my sims I use pretty standard human response times. I didn't practice chest pulling, but my average was about 213 gp/min, so that's what I used.
-Trying to get the Death Necklace in segments will probably be pretty painful, because aside from the 1/32 chance, you have to reach the chest without dying, which might require tactics to help you stay alive, which lengthen the process of trying to die quickly.
-I'll have to empirically test chances of making it to Rimuldar for the second time to see if there is an error in my simulator. For the record, the strategy is to use herbs before running if HP is too low, and to heal when down to 25 HP. Herb usage can almost double your chances of success according to my sims.
-The 10-17 gp chest in B2 is closer than the torch by 10 steps, so it's the best bet.
-About the hypothetical Warlock encounter on B2, there are a lot of variables involved, but typically running is your best bet because getting to the chest and dying should not take as long as making the trip to the stones and back.

Damn, I had a long reply typed up earlier today and was sure I submitted it, but I guess I lost it.  Bummer.

I'll try and be more brief this time, which is probably a good idea anyways! :)

-The time difference to getting the stones first and last is about 55-60 seconds.  Dying on B2 on average should take a lot less, like in the range of 20 seconds.
-For Kol, I was considering the option of visiting there at LV 4 to grind because it's closer to the inn and may save time.  I have to run some sims to make sure that getting the appropriate gold to buy 2 keys would not take longer, although it probably will.  Otherwise you guys are probably right that it makes sense to go there.
-For all my sims I use pretty standard human response times.  I didn't practice chest pulling, but my average was about 213 gp/min, so that's what I used.
-Trying to get the Death Necklace in segments will probably be pretty painful, because aside from the 1/32 chance, you have to reach the chest without dying, which might require tactics to help you stay alive, which lengthen the process of trying to die quickly.
-I'll have to empirically test chances of making it to Rimuldar for the second time to see if there is an error in my simulator.  For the record, the strategy is to use herbs before running if HP is too low, and to heal when down to 25 HP.  Herb usage can almost double your chances of success according to my sims.
-The 10-17 gp chest in B2 is closer than the torch by 10 steps, so it's the best bet.
-About the hypothetical Warlock encounter on B2, there are a lot of variables involved, but typically running is your best bet because getting to the chest and dying should not take as long as making the trip to the stones and back.

Ryan8bit

2010-01-24 11:51:31 pm

Ok, so I just tested my odds for runs to Rimuldar by doing ten runs a piece. With full plate, large shield, and dragon scale, it was a total breeze. I tried it without the full plate and it was a bit harder, but still manageable. So I started wondering about doing it with just the clothes and scale like the initial run, and I still didn't die once out of ten runs, although I came close a couple times. It's possible I got lucky, but I'm going to stick by my simulator's odds with possibly even going so far as to say that the risk percentages I gave might be too high given human intuition vs. my AI.

I've also found that leveling at Kol at level 4 is about 1:30-2:00 faster (possibly even more depending on other strategies) than at the strip near Tantegel. The only downside is that on average you'll be able to afford about 2 herbs instead of 4. The average herb use using my strategy is about 1, but it still can go higher than 2 with just the wrong luck.

So in summary, going to Kol at level 4 to grind is a bit faster, although slightly riskier (I'd say about 2%) when it comes to having herbs for the first run to Rimuldar. Skipping Kol when you do the second run is also riskier, but you'll have the benefit of that extra 1:30-2:00 plus the time it takes to go to the weapon shop and buy the full plate. It just depends on if you feel the risk is worth saving a couple minutes. I think it might be.

Ok, so I just tested my odds for runs to Rimuldar by doing ten runs a piece.  With full plate, large shield, and dragon scale, it was a total breeze.  I tried it without the full plate and it was a bit harder, but still manageable.  So I started wondering about doing it with just the clothes and scale like the initial run, and I still didn't die once out of ten runs, although I came close a couple times.  It's possible I got lucky, but I'm going to stick by my simulator's odds with possibly even going so far as to say that the risk percentages I gave might be too high given human intuition vs. my AI.

I've also found that leveling at Kol at level 4 is about 1:30-2:00 faster (possibly even more depending on other strategies) than at the strip near Tantegel.  The only downside is that on average you'll be able to afford about 2 herbs instead of 4.  The average herb use using my strategy is about 1, but it still can go higher than 2 with just the wrong luck.

So in summary, going to Kol at level 4 to grind is a bit faster, although slightly riskier (I'd say about 2%) when it comes to having herbs for the first run to Rimuldar.  Skipping Kol when you do the second run is also riskier, but you'll have the benefit of that extra 1:30-2:00 plus the time it takes to go to the weapon shop and buy the full plate.  It just depends on if you feel the risk is worth saving a couple minutes.  I think it might be.

ShinerCCC

Edit history:

ShinerCCC: 2010-01-25 04:44:46 am

2010-01-25 01:57:02 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Leveling from 4 to 5 in Kol is faster, you say? It's a given that we'll be using Hurt as our main source of attacking, because the Club is pitiful and Hurt is conveniently given to us. Let me compare the pros and cons:

Pros of Hills of Hubris by Tantegel:
- free MP healing, so you can save up to 106 gold faster
- easy to leave, safer encounters are one space away (but risk only matters for single-segment I guess)

Cons of Hills:
- it takes several steps to wind into that desk, then casting Heal 2 or 3 times to get your HP back...but you could just spend 6 gold for the Inn in Breconnary instead.
- somewhat remote, they're in a dead end, and stuck behind more hills that reduce walking speed slightly

Pros of Kol:
- closer Inn, I think
- convenient striking distance for the sprint to Rimuldar

Cons of going to Kol:
- overhead cost of walking there to begin with (well, not really...you could even start walking there at level 3 and reach level 4 right before the bridge)
- staying at the Inn costs 20 gold a pop, which is a huge loss in this critical early stage, the most gold you can get from a single enemy is 14 I think
- if you're in trouble, you have to endure a few squares of forest before reaching safety (again, risk, doesn't really count)

I'm wondering how you saved those 2 minutes. The more important objective is getting 106 gold, not reaching level 5, especially since I noticed you can buy Full Plate in Kol so getting to Rimuldar before level 5 should be a lot easier. So every MP refill in Kol will pull your progress back about two battles, which would be about 1 minute I guess.

edit: Ryan8bit, since you've disassembled Dragon Warrior, do you happen to know the memory address of the RNG? I was hoping the submission text on the TAS would list it, like how important memory addresses were listed for Faxanadu, but it wasn't there. I'm about to do some tests on emulator, such as trying to make it to Rimuldar before level 3 or something.

edit2: progress has already been made.
Name of 'Z' for Str/HP growth. I forgot they give you a Torch at the start, I usually sold it to get closer to Leather Armour but nobody cares about that. Club/Clothes/D-Scale for starting setup, the moment I hit Level 4 I had 99 gold, so I had to make 7 more gold somewhere. Selling my starting torch for 4 gold was a possibility, but for the successful run I decided to just grind it out in the southern hills and then see the magic man one last time. Every scrap of HP seems to count! I barely made it to Rimuldar on my 4th or 5th attempt; right outside of town a Skeleton attacked me, I got blocked on the first turn and took 11 damage, leaving me with 1 HP, then I escaped and made it to town! Granted, frameskip was used, so that would muck with the RNG a lot differently from a console run, but Dragon Warrior seems to use frame numbers for random purposes so I guess this data is equally random. So I have my 2 keys at level 4, excellent...

edit3: new route for B2 of Mountain Cave. This takes you to the 10-17 gold chest, then to the big chest, which might have a Death Necklace:
R4, Db, Take, Lb, Db, Rb, Db, Lb, Ub, R1, Ub, Take
If you miss the R1, it's only a single notch, so just go left 1 and try again.
Okay, I'm at the chest right now, and it seems like the RNG varies on every frame, I get different amounts from the chest every time I load the state, and no Death Necklace yet...

hey, $004F contains a value that changes very rapidly, it just rises much like the frame counter in Faxanadu...this gives 256 distinct possibilities. And if the Death Necklace is 1/32, that means only 1/8th of that range is valid for spawning it. Now I need to find out which values work...the Fx range? a distribution, each one 32 frames apart?
Interesting. As soon as I select TAKE (or do anything in the menu), the value changes to 005 (in decimal). I'm trying a variety of ranges at 6% game speed and I still can't nail a Death Necklace.
Well, after TAKE is selected, a whole bunch of addresses at the start of RAM change in weird ways too. Wait, #0000 is the amount of gold the chest gives me in hex, every time. The previous value was 06...I think that was from when a Drakeema hit me with HURT and did 6 damage. I guess 0000 is the math address.
ACK! ALL OF A SUDDEN I LOAD STATE AND I GET IT! FUCK! I DON'T KNOW WHAT VALUE ANYTHING WAS! But #0000 is still equal to 06, I know that much. And at least I know it's possible now, for a while I was convinced I was at the wrong chest. Okay, time to empirically see what frame gives it to me. But since the counter always resets to 005 after doing something, this means waiting 4 seconds will generally give you "less likely" results.
I'm testing every "frame" (I'm hoping that's what this counter does) and it seems every single frame acts as a different seed. Every frame gives a different result. Well, not really...if the range of this chest is 100 to 131 gold, then the "100 + 32" scenario is actually the Death Necklace. There has to be some kind of modulus going on here. actually, not really, adjacent frames give gold differences greater than 1. Frame 254 gives 131 gold, frame 255 gives 120. Wait, this address is useless; I waited for the counter to loop around. 193 right after I load my state gives 111 gold, if I let it lap back around to 193 later I get 105. This memory address isn't relevant for the RNG, argh!!

conclusion: I'm probably not going to be able to "manipulate" a Death Necklace on console, and this is so maddening I am considering giving it up for the segmented run *_*

last edit: the easiest way to get a death necklace is to hold down the frameskip button, then rapidly jam "load state" and the A button

extra lol edit: the Stones chest gave me a "Bamboo Pole". NO! I kept trying to take it and although it wouldn't disappear, it kept telling me "Unfortunately, it is empty." and then my inventory didn't get any bigger...this game is smarter than it looks! In addition, reloading my state and taking from the bottomless chest a few more times still gave me a "Bamboo Pole". Looks like your garbage text is determined by something...before you die? I was killed by a Skeleton, trying to Hurt it to death, for the record. I also checked the text dump and the words "Axe" and "Ghost" are farther apart than "Harp" and "Knight", or vice versa, same idea.
Also Tantegel on 150% speed is cool, hearing the music in just intonation e minor is totally sweet.
Also also the Death Necklace sells for 1200, not 1250!

Made it to Rimuldar with Full Plate on my first try (stayed at the inn in Kol when I probably didn't have to, that's another 10 seconds on the bottomless chest after all), but my only serious threat came from a Wolf and I ran on the first turn successfully. I had 23 HP ready to go anyway...
Well, I'm here with my Broad Sword and only doing 4 or 5 damage to Wolves, up to 7 on Skeletons. 1 damage to Metal Scorpions. Hurt is universally better. It takes so long to win a fight. With 17 MP, I can cast Hurt 8 times before having to return. The Broad Sword can be possibly be skipped until my level is higher anyway! Let's try this out...
wait, as soon as I hit Level 5 I got a +5 power boost and started going 5-8 damage to Wolves. And Heal can restore 2 to 3 hits from enemies, so that seems like a more economical use of MP, except against Metal Scorpions. Just a good footnote though, if you end up grinding on Rimuldar at level 4: rely on Hurt a lot more.
...don't pick fights with Metal Scorpions when you have no MP. I need to make more savestates...
By the time you read this, I'll probably have a savestate for "hey I just turned level X"

Leveling from 4 to 5 in Kol is faster, you say? It's a given that we'll be using Hurt as our main source of attacking, because the Club is pitiful and Hurt is conveniently given to us. Let me compare the pros and cons:

Pros of Hills of Hubris by Tantegel:
- free MP healing, so you can save up to 106 gold faster
- easy to leave, safer encounters are one space away (but risk only matters for single-segment I guess)

Cons of Hills:
- it takes several steps to wind into that desk, then casting Heal 2 or 3 times to get your HP back...but you could just spend 6 gold for the Inn in Breconnary instead.
- somewhat remote, they're in a dead end, and stuck behind more hills that reduce walking speed slightly

Pros of Kol:
- closer Inn, I think
- convenient striking distance for the sprint to Rimuldar

Cons of going to Kol:
- overhead cost of walking there to begin with (well, not really...you could even start walking there at level 3 and reach level 4 right before the bridge)
- staying at the Inn costs 20 gold a pop, which is a huge loss in this critical early stage, the most gold you can get from a single enemy is 14 I think
- if you're in trouble, you have to endure a few squares of forest before reaching safety (again, risk, doesn't really count)

I'm wondering how you saved those 2 minutes. The more important objective is getting 106 gold, not reaching level 5, especially since I noticed you can buy Full Plate in Kol so getting to Rimuldar before level 5 should be a lot easier. So every MP refill in Kol will pull your progress back about two battles, which would be about 1 minute I guess.

edit: Ryan8bit, since you've disassembled Dragon Warrior, do you happen to know the memory address of the RNG? I was hoping the submission text on the TAS would list it, like how important memory addresses were listed for Faxanadu, but it wasn't there. I'm about to do some tests on emulator, such as trying to make it to Rimuldar before level 3 or something.

edit2: progress has already been made.
Name of 'Z' for Str/HP growth. I forgot they give you a Torch at the start, I usually sold it to get closer to Leather Armour but nobody cares about that. Club/Clothes/D-Scale for starting setup, the moment I hit Level 4 I had 99 gold, so I had to make 7 more gold somewhere. Selling my starting torch for 4 gold was a possibility, but for the successful run I decided to just grind it out in the southern hills and then see the magic man one last time. Every scrap of HP seems to count! I barely made it to Rimuldar on my 4th or 5th attempt; right outside of town a Skeleton attacked me, I got blocked on the first turn and took 11 damage, leaving me with 1 HP, then I escaped and made it to town! Granted, frameskip was used, so that would muck with the RNG a lot differently from a console run, but Dragon Warrior seems to use frame numbers for random purposes so I guess this data is equally random. So I have my 2 keys at level 4, excellent...

edit3: new route for B2 of Mountain Cave. This takes you to the 10-17 gold chest, then to the big chest, which might have a Death Necklace:
R4, Db, Take, Lb, Db, Rb, Db, Lb, Ub, R1, Ub, Take
If you miss the R1, it's only a single notch, so just go left 1 and try again.
Okay, I'm at the chest right now, and it seems like the RNG varies on every frame, I get different amounts from the chest every time I load the state, and no Death Necklace yet...

hey, $004F contains a value that changes very rapidly, it just rises much like the frame counter in Faxanadu...this gives 256 distinct possibilities. And if the Death Necklace is 1/32, that means only 1/8th of that range is valid for spawning it. Now I need to find out which values work...the Fx range? a distribution, each one 32 frames apart?
Interesting. As soon as I select TAKE (or do anything in the menu), the value changes to 005 (in decimal). I'm trying a variety of ranges at 6% game speed and I still can't nail a Death Necklace.
Well, after TAKE is selected, a whole bunch of addresses at the start of RAM change in weird ways too. Wait, #0000 is the amount of gold the chest gives me in hex, every time. The previous value was 06...I think that was from when a Drakeema hit me with HURT and did 6 damage. I guess 0000 is the math address.
ACK! ALL OF A SUDDEN I LOAD STATE AND I GET IT! FUCK! I DON'T KNOW WHAT VALUE ANYTHING WAS! But #0000 is still equal to 06, I know that much. And at least I know it's possible now, for a while I was convinced I was at the wrong chest. Okay, time to empirically see what frame gives it to me. But since the counter always resets to 005 after doing something, this means waiting 4 seconds will generally give you "less likely" results.
I'm testing every "frame" (I'm hoping that's what this counter does) and it seems every single frame acts as a different seed. Every frame gives a different result. Well, not really...if the range of this chest is 100 to 131 gold, then the "100 + 32" scenario is actually the Death Necklace. There has to be some kind of modulus going on here. actually, not really, adjacent frames give gold differences greater than 1. Frame 254 gives 131 gold, frame 255 gives 120. Wait, this address is useless; I waited for the counter to loop around. 193 right after I load my state gives 111 gold, if I let it lap back around to 193 later I get 105. This memory address isn't relevant for the RNG, argh!!

conclusion: I'm probably not going to be able to "manipulate" a Death Necklace on console, and this is so maddening I am considering giving it up for the segmented run *_*

last edit: the easiest way to get a death necklace is to hold down the frameskip button, then rapidly jam "load state" and the A button

extra lol edit: the Stones chest gave me a "Bamboo Pole". NO! I kept trying to take it and although it wouldn't disappear, it kept telling me "Unfortunately, it is empty." and then my inventory didn't get any bigger...this game is smarter than it looks! In addition, reloading my state and taking from the bottomless chest a few more times still gave me a "Bamboo Pole". Looks like your garbage text is determined by something...before you die? I was killed by a Skeleton, trying to Hurt it to death, for the record. I also checked the text dump and the words "Axe" and "Ghost" are farther apart than "Harp" and "Knight", or vice versa, same idea.
Also Tantegel on 150% speed is cool, hearing the music in just intonation e minor is totally sweet.
Also also the Death Necklace sells for 1200, not 1250!

Made it to Rimuldar with Full Plate on my first try (stayed at the inn in Kol when I probably didn't have to, that's another 10 seconds on the bottomless chest after all), but my only serious threat came from a Wolf and I ran on the first turn successfully. I had 23 HP ready to go anyway...
Well, I'm here with my Broad Sword and only doing 4 or 5 damage to Wolves, up to 7 on Skeletons. 1 damage to Metal Scorpions. Hurt is universally better. It takes so long to win a fight. With 17 MP, I can cast Hurt 8 times before having to return. The Broad Sword can be possibly be skipped until my level is higher anyway! Let's try this out...
wait, as soon as I hit Level 5 I got a +5 power boost and started going 5-8 damage to Wolves. And Heal can restore 2 to 3 hits from enemies, so that seems like a more economical use of MP, except against Metal Scorpions. Just a good footnote though, if you end up grinding on Rimuldar at level 4: rely on Hurt a lot more.
...don't pick fights with Metal Scorpions when you have no MP. I need to make more savestates...
By the time you read this, I'll probably have a savestate for "hey I just turned level X"

Ryan8bit

2010-01-25 10:32:44 am

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Pros of Hills of Hubris by Tantegel:
- free MP healing, so you can save up to 106 gold faster
- easy to leave, safer encounters are one space away (but risk only matters for single-segment I guess)

Free MP healing is great and all, but it is slow going to get there, talk, heal, heal, talk, and leave. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but from what I remember the average difference was about 27 seconds per trip when staying at the inn at Kol. Given about 3-4 average inn trips, that's where that extra time comes in. Going to Brecconary also saved a little bit of time too, but I wasn't really focusing on that right now.

Safe encounters are probably more of a hindrance. Encountering slimes will not give you as much XP, and definitely not as much gold if you fight them. Simply running from them takes more time, and on average there are more encounters if you do that. Ideally at Kol you'd start heading back at 2 MP or so and just fight in the forest, cutting out most of the risk.

Quote:

Cons of going to Kol:
- overhead cost of walking there to begin with (well, not really...you could even start walking there at level 3 and reach level 4 right before the bridge)
- staying at the Inn costs 20 gold a pop, which is a huge loss in this critical early stage, the most gold you can get from a single enemy is 14 I think
- if you're in trouble, you have to endure a few squares of forest before reaching safety (again, risk, doesn't really count)

Walking to Kol is a moot point since it has to be done. You either do it at level 4 with more risk, or you do it at level 5 with minimal risk. I know the inn costs quite a bit, but on average it means the difference between 4 and 2 herbs.

Quote:

I'm wondering how you saved those 2 minutes. The more important objective is getting 106 gold, not reaching level 5, especially since I noticed you can buy Full Plate in Kol so getting to Rimuldar before level 5 should be a lot easier. So every MP refill in Kol will pull your progress back about two battles, which would be about 1 minute I guess.

It's not just reaching 106 gold, but also having some money for herbs unless you really want to risk it. I've noticed that trips to Rimuldar at level 4 are about 2x more dangerous because of lower HP and MP. With a segmented run, this probably doesn't matter at all though.

Quote:

edit: Ryan8bit, since you've disassembled Dragon Warrior, do you happen to know the memory address of the RNG?

The algorithm itself occurs at $C55B, and the actual number used is at $95. If you want to test results, set $C55B to 0x60 (this prevents the random algorithm from running) and then try setting $95 to something like 0.

Quote:

right outside of town a Skeleton attacked me, I got blocked on the first turn and took 11 damage, leaving me with 1 HP, then I escaped and made it to town!

Were you out of MP? If not, you should never wander around with 12 HP.

Quote:

And if the Death Necklace is 1/32, that means only 1/8th of that range is valid for spawning it.

It doesn't work that way. It does the check first to see if you get it, and if you fail then it calculates the amount of gold.

Quote:

I guess 0000 is the math address.

Yep. It's where most calculations occur because it's the quickest to access. This is true for most games.

Quote:

conclusion: I'm probably not going to be able to "manipulate" a Death Necklace on console, and this is so maddening I am considering giving it up for the segmented run *_*

Yeah, you can't really manipulate it so much as attack it with tedious brute force.

Quote:

I kept trying to take it and although it wouldn't disappear, it kept telling me "Unfortunately, it is empty." and then my inventory didn't get any bigger...this game is smarter than it looks!

Yeah, an algorithm runs to check if you have the stones before giving you the chest.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
Pros of Hills of Hubris by Tantegel:
- free MP healing, so you can save up to 106 gold faster
- easy to leave, safer encounters are one space away (but risk only matters for single-segment I guess)
[/quote]

Free MP healing is great and all, but it is slow going to get there, talk, heal, heal, talk, and leave.  I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but from what I remember the average difference was about 27 seconds per trip when staying at the inn at Kol.  Given about 3-4 average inn trips, that's where that extra time comes in.  Going to Brecconary also saved a little bit of time too, but I wasn't really focusing on that right now.

Safe encounters are probably more of a hindrance.  Encountering slimes will not give you as much XP, and definitely not as much gold if you fight them.  Simply running from them takes more time, and on average there are more encounters if you do that.  Ideally at Kol you'd start heading back at 2 MP or so and just fight in the forest, cutting out most of the risk.

[quote]Cons of going to Kol:
- overhead cost of walking there to begin with (well, not really...you could even start walking there at level 3 and reach level 4 right before the bridge)
- staying at the Inn costs 20 gold a pop, which is a huge loss in this critical early stage, the most gold you can get from a single enemy is 14 I think
- if you're in trouble, you have to endure a few squares of forest before reaching safety (again, risk, doesn't really count)[/quote]

Walking to Kol is a moot point since it has to be done.  You either do it at level 4 with more risk, or you do it at level 5 with minimal risk.  I know the inn costs quite a bit, but on average it means the difference between 4 and 2 herbs.

[quote]I'm wondering how you saved those 2 minutes. The more important objective is getting 106 gold, not reaching level 5, especially since I noticed you can buy Full Plate in Kol so getting to Rimuldar before level 5 should be a lot easier. So every MP refill in Kol will pull your progress back about two battles, which would be about 1 minute I guess.[/quote]

It's not just reaching 106 gold, but also having some money for herbs unless you really want to risk it.  I've noticed that trips to Rimuldar at level 4 are about 2x more dangerous because of lower HP and MP.  With a segmented run, this probably doesn't matter at all though.

[quote]edit: Ryan8bit, since you've disassembled Dragon Warrior, do you happen to know the memory address of the RNG?[/quote]

The algorithm itself occurs at $C55B, and the actual number used is at $95.  If you want to test results, set $C55B to 0x60 (this prevents the random algorithm from running) and then try setting $95 to something like 0.

[quote]right outside of town a Skeleton attacked me, I got blocked on the first turn and took 11 damage, leaving me with 1 HP, then I escaped and made it to town![/quote]

Were you out of MP?  If not, you should never wander around with 12 HP.

[quote]And if the Death Necklace is 1/32, that means only 1/8th of that range is valid for spawning it.[/quote]

It doesn't work that way.  It does the check first to see if you get it, and if you fail then it calculates the amount of gold.

[quote]I guess 0000 is the math address.[/quote]

Yep.  It's where most calculations occur because it's the quickest to access.  This is true for most games.

[quote]conclusion: I'm probably not going to be able to "manipulate" a Death Necklace on console, and this is so maddening I am considering giving it up for the segmented run *_*[/quote]

Yeah, you can't really manipulate it so much as attack it with tedious brute force.

[quote]I kept trying to take it and although it wouldn't disappear, it kept telling me "Unfortunately, it is empty." and then my inventory didn't get any bigger...this game is smarter than it looks![/quote]

Yeah, an algorithm runs to check if you have the stones before giving you the chest.

ShinerCCC

2010-01-25 02:43:47 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Indeed, I had 1 MP left, got pretty lucky to be able to make it at level 4 with no herbs. This also meant I didn't do any farming in the Hills of Hubris.

Currently I'm level 8, playing at 150% game speed with a bit of frameskip. I've taken a savestate every time said level is reached, you can also see the stat gains. Metal Scorpions can be attacked with the Broad Sword just as easily. Putting everything to sleep seems to be the best tactic, the odds are in your favour they won't wake up, saving you lots of damage. Enemies tend to do 0 to 6 damage, so saving yourself from 2 hits means you conserve 4 MP that would be used for Heal. You practically double your MP efficiency by spamming Sleep. I've even started killing Warlocks, even though there is the risk of failure and lost turns to counter-Sleep. But I figure it's faster to just add on the 13 exp than run away and wait for the next encounter. I'm hoping this use of MP minimizes inn stays so I get 14800 gold by level 13 as planned.

Wolflords and Wraiths can be killed with Sleep as well but I'm not sure if that's actually more efficient. Wraiths take about 4 hits to kill, and I personally hit them once or twice then go for Sleep so I can hopefully finish them off before they can heal. Actually, has anybody ever seen a Wraith wake up and immediately cast Heal? I wonder if that's even in the enemy AI algorithms. Anyway, Wolflords are easy enough with Sleep as well, they either stay asleep or still waste turns on Stopspell, but if you get hit you take extra high damage, up to 14. And there's always running away from Goldmans to waste your time. I guess the second area can indeed be handled as early as level 8 but the sandbar area is also really convenient, it's close to town so I can really push my luck. I was down to 1 HP and 1 MP at least 3 more times. One time I fought a Skeleton with 3 HP and 1 MP, the Skeleton hit me for 2 and then I won. I'll try my level 7 state as well.

Indeed, I had 1 MP left, got pretty lucky to be able to make it at level 4 with no herbs. This also meant I didn't do any farming in the Hills of Hubris.

Currently I'm level 8, playing at 150% game speed with a bit of frameskip. I've taken a savestate every time said level is reached, you can also see the stat gains. Metal Scorpions can be attacked with the Broad Sword just as easily. Putting everything to sleep seems to be the best tactic, the odds are in your favour they won't wake up, saving you lots of damage. Enemies tend to do 0 to 6 damage, so saving yourself from 2 hits means you conserve 4 MP that would be used for Heal. You practically double your MP efficiency by spamming Sleep. I've even started killing Warlocks, even though there is the risk of failure and lost turns to counter-Sleep. But I figure it's faster to just add on the 13 exp than run away and wait for the next encounter. I'm hoping this use of MP minimizes inn stays so I get 14800 gold by level 13 as planned.

Wolflords and Wraiths can be killed with Sleep as well but I'm not sure if that's actually more efficient. Wraiths take about 4 hits to kill, and I personally hit them once or twice then go for Sleep so I can hopefully finish them off before they can heal. Actually, has anybody ever seen a Wraith wake up and immediately cast Heal? I wonder if that's even in the enemy AI algorithms. Anyway, Wolflords are easy enough with Sleep as well, they either stay asleep or still waste turns on Stopspell, but if you get hit you take extra high damage, up to 14. And there's always running away from Goldmans to waste your time. I guess the second area can indeed be handled as early as level 8 but the sandbar area is also really convenient, it's close to town so I can really push my luck. I was down to 1 HP and 1 MP at least 3 more times. One time I fought a Skeleton with 3 HP and 1 MP, the Skeleton hit me for 2 and then I won. I'll try my level 7 state as well.

ShinerCCC

Edit history:

ShinerCCC: 2010-01-26 06:29:01 am

2010-01-26 04:47:16 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Level 8:
Wolflords are easy if you sleep them. Needless to say, if your spell gets blocked early on you should consider running, because they'll berserk you after that. You can fight Wraiths, but it takes 4 or 5 swings to down them, and if they use Heal your efforts are wasted, it's probably smarter to run. Metal Scorpions can be sworded as well.

Level 9:
A big boost in power, which is surprisingly helpful. Suddenly Wolflords and Wraiths die very easily, usually in 3 turns. Stop casting Sleep on Metal Scorpions and Skeletons, you can kill them in 2 hits almost every time. Kill all Wraiths, if they use Heal shrug it off and keep fighting, it's probably faster than wandering around for the next encounter. They may not heal completely either (20 to 27)

Level 10:
The big agility boost, suddenly Wolflords do crap damage to you, so stop casting Sleep on them. Your trips out of town become a lot longer because all of your MP can be devoted to healing once you reach the target area. Continue using Sleep on Wolves though, they're actually more dangerous than Wolflords because they always attack constantly. Oh, and if you see Warlocks, use Stopspell instead of Sleep.

HOWEVER

All of this data may be invalid. I just checked, and Wyverns are just as vulnerable to Sleep as Wolflords. If the strategy is to rely on Sleep, why not go big and kill nothing but Wyverns? I'm going to try that out at level 11 here, and if it proves tough, forget about previous levels.

btw I have 7203 gold as of level 11. Not sure if that's ahead or behind the curve. I was thinking that buying the Silver Shield sooner could gain us access to Hauksness grinding that much sooner, then maybe the real objective on Rimuldar is 14800 gold before level 13...

also btw Ryan8bit, I checked out $95 and the value fluctuates on every frame in a completely unpredictable way. Yikes.

edit: I found out already, Wyverns are easy kills while they're asleep. The thing is, you have to keep them asleep, so sometimes you have to use it twice. And it's aggravating to see "The spell will not work.", but it happens. Let me load some previous states and see how hard they are...
Level 10: rofl I got pwned by bad luck, woke up after 1 turn, next 2 attempts to sleep failed
anyway they're actually easy to kill, damage dealt ranges from 8-13, they deal the same amount back

Level 9: damage dealt to Wyverns seems to be 6-10, no wait I got a 13 once. Generally they die in 4 or 5 turns. the Wyvern woke up and did 14 to me...you definitely can't fight them on equal terms at all. I should also mention, you're spending extra MP on sleeping Wolflords while you're down here too. Another Wyvern did 16 to me, and they tend to get surprise rounds more often than other enemies in this area.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind you that Skeletons can do as much as 5 damage. Ouch. >_<

Level 8: It was hard enough just to get there...I did 6 or 7 damage and the thing eventually woke up and killed me. 5 and 8 are other possible damage values. I know Wyverns can have more than 35 HP, so this means that with a "perfect" sleep of 6 turns you still might not kill it. This can't possibly be worthwhile.

Level 7: Wolflords might be hard enough, you can't do more than 10 damage to them. 6 to 8 is more common. Metal Scorpions are still awkward to kill. I actually haven't had the chance to fight a real Wyvern yet, I keep running out of HP and MP as soon as I get near the bridge. When I finally fought one, I ripped 4s and 5s on it while it did 14 or 15 to me. All it had to do was surprise me, then break out of sleep twice to bust a nut all over me. Forget about it, especially for single-segment. In a side note, Wolflords are feasible for killing, Wraiths can die too if you feel lucky because they do "poor damage" to your well-armoured self. (nevermind, one just dodged me twice in a row after I hit it 4 times, then killed me *_*) (don't worry, I killed the next one fair and square, it didn't use Heal)

Anyway, since Wolflords take about 5 turns to kill and Wraiths are risky, you can probably still get better exp/min just turning over the easier fights on the sandbar, especially since Wolflords do 12 or 13 damage usually. That's 4 MP of damage you just took right there, on top of the 2 MP for each Sleep you need.

As an interesting side effect, I reached level 8 on this re-test just before I was going to run into town and heal. I had 1610 gold as I hit 807 exp...in the previously recorded "I just hit level 8" savestate, I had 1433 gold at 807 exp! Wow, what a difference in gold! Was I actually needing to heal less often? No, that's probably just the massive payout from Wolflords, they give tons of gold and are still easy to kill. The segmented run will know what to do at level 7 now for sure. As for SS, well, just make sure your HP stays high (that would help in case of Warlock sleeplock too), re-sleep the Wolflords if you've only hit them once or twice, and don't push your luck with Wraiths.

Level 6: you don't even know Sleep yet, wtf

edit 2.5: At level 12 (10556 gold by now, extrapolating from a sandbar level 7 instead of Wolflords level 7), Wyverns die in 2 or 3 hits due to another huge boost in Strength. But one hit can do as much as 13 damage, so you might as well spend 2 MP for Sleep instead of 4 MP for Heal. I got killed by one due to unlucky dodging and a surprise round yet again...thankfully, you at least have the option of keeping your HP as high as 63. I have 55 defense power right now (just checked, I AM wearing a Dragon Scale...good). Don't Wyverns have an attack of 56?! Stupid Dragonlord keeping me from using a Str+Agi build!! Or maybe, if we had some extra cash at an earlier level, we could grab the Silver Shield sooner and then kill Wyverns properly.

I think I'm missing the point here. If I have to spend 2 MP in an area where I don't need to spend that MP at all, I'm wasting time. Wolflords and Wraiths get chopped to pieces in 2 hits every time. Then all my MP can go toward what little healing I need, instead of frequent trips to town. (yep, I just earned about 700 exp in the Wolflord hills, then died fighting a Warlock on the way back to town, OOPS)

Now just think if I had the Magic Armour...I was thinking "I wonder if all the times I stayed at the inn add up to 6200 gold" and then I realized there's no way I stayed there over 100 times. It feels like maybe 5 to 10 times per level. It should decrease because I simply gain more MP to work with, but the greater interval of EXP needed keeps the number of inn stays steady. Damn, I should have kept count while making these savestates ;_;

Indeed, it would be the only way we can measure if the extra 18 minutes of bottomless gold pulling pays off...measure the time it takes to return to Rimuldar and use the inn, then compare the number of inn trips between Full Plate and Magic Armour grinding segments. As an extra money trick, you could maybe even cash in your Magic Armour for a Full Plate and profit by 850 when you trade in right before you go for Erdrick's Armour.

Okay, I just hit level 13, and didn't notice I broke 14800 gold...oops. This is what happens when Dragon Warrior turns into Hydlide, me pressing Tab and X at the same time to grind enemies against my six-pack abs...anyway, this is a great savestate to have. Now I can see if Erdrick's Sword is retrievable without his Armour.

protip: only buy 5 Herbs in Garinham, there's a free one in a chest, although there's more text if you do it that way.

edit #too many: just beat the Axe Knight right after grabbing the Silver Harp at level 13, came down to the last hit, he used Sleep 3 times. I don't know if I got any excellent moves, frameskip was on for a lot of it. On to Golem!
...A STARWYVERN KILLED ME %$#!^#$^$
Maybe I should buy Herbs again right after.
This time I killed Golem and skipped Hauksness. He didn't even wake up and I raped him. lame. Suffice to say, if I go here first, I can even replenish all my Herbs if I use any, then Return/die to Tantegel to save before attempting the Axe Knight.
THEN I ANOTHER STARWYVERN KILLED ME BEFORE I COULD EVEN GET TO THE SWAMP GODDAMNIT
The Axe Knight seems noticeably easier with the Silver Shield...damage range seems to have gone from 20-29 to 15-26 or something. Minimum damage was lower than max damage, or so it seemed. I won with 35 HP left, wow.
LMFAO I GOT KILLED BY A STARWYVERN IN HAUKSNESS
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH THAT'S ENOUGH FOR TONIGHT

Level 8:
Wolflords are easy if you sleep them. Needless to say, if your spell gets blocked early on you should consider running, because they'll berserk you after that. You can fight Wraiths, but it takes 4 or 5 swings to down them, and if they use Heal your efforts are wasted, it's probably smarter to run. Metal Scorpions can be sworded as well.

Level 9:
A big boost in power, which is surprisingly helpful. Suddenly Wolflords and Wraiths die very easily, usually in 3 turns. Stop casting Sleep on Metal Scorpions and Skeletons, you can kill them in 2 hits almost every time. Kill all Wraiths, if they use Heal shrug it off and keep fighting, it's probably faster than wandering around for the next encounter. They may not heal completely either (20 to 27)

Level 10:
The big agility boost, suddenly Wolflords do crap damage to you, so stop casting Sleep on them. Your trips out of town become a lot longer because all of your MP can be devoted to healing once you reach the target area. Continue using Sleep on Wolves though, they're actually more dangerous than Wolflords because they always attack constantly. Oh, and if you see Warlocks, use Stopspell instead of Sleep.

HOWEVER

All of this data may be invalid. I just checked, and Wyverns are just as vulnerable to Sleep as Wolflords. If the strategy is to rely on Sleep, why not go big and kill nothing but Wyverns? I'm going to try that out at level 11 here, and if it proves tough, forget about previous levels.

btw I have 7203 gold as of level 11. Not sure if that's ahead or behind the curve. I was thinking that buying the Silver Shield sooner could gain us access to Hauksness grinding that much sooner, then maybe the real objective on Rimuldar is 14800 gold before level 13...

also btw Ryan8bit, I checked out $95 and the value fluctuates on every frame in a completely unpredictable way. Yikes.

edit: I found out already, Wyverns are easy kills while they're asleep. The thing is, you have to keep them asleep, so sometimes you have to use it twice. And it's aggravating to see "The spell will not work.", but it happens. Let me load some previous states and see how hard they are...
Level 10: rofl I got pwned by bad luck, woke up after 1 turn, next 2 attempts to sleep failed
anyway they're actually easy to kill, damage dealt ranges from 8-13, they deal the same amount back

Level 9: damage dealt to Wyverns seems to be 6-10, no wait I got a 13 once. Generally they die in 4 or 5 turns. the Wyvern woke up and did 14 to me...you definitely can't fight them on equal terms at all. I should also mention, you're spending extra MP on sleeping Wolflords while you're down here too. Another Wyvern did 16 to me, and they tend to get surprise rounds more often than other enemies in this area.
I would like to take this opportunity to remind you that Skeletons can do as much as 5 damage. Ouch. >_<

Level 8: It was hard enough just to get there...I did 6 or 7 damage and the thing eventually woke up and killed me. 5 and 8 are other possible damage values. I know Wyverns can have more than 35 HP, so this means that with a "perfect" sleep of 6 turns you still might not kill it. This can't possibly be worthwhile.

Level 7: Wolflords might be hard enough, you can't do more than 10 damage to them. 6 to 8 is more common. Metal Scorpions are still awkward to kill. I actually haven't had the chance to fight a real Wyvern yet, I keep running out of HP and MP as soon as I get near the bridge. When I finally fought one, I ripped 4s and 5s on it while it did 14 or 15 to me. All it had to do was surprise me, then break out of sleep twice to bust a nut all over me. Forget about it, especially for single-segment. In a side note, Wolflords are feasible for killing, Wraiths can die too if you feel lucky because they do "poor damage" to your well-armoured self. (nevermind, one just dodged me twice in a row after I hit it 4 times, then killed me *_*) (don't worry, I killed the next one fair and square, it didn't use Heal)

Anyway, since Wolflords take about 5 turns to kill and Wraiths are risky, you can probably still get better exp/min just turning over the easier fights on the sandbar, especially since Wolflords do 12 or 13 damage usually. That's 4 MP of damage you just took right there, on top of the 2 MP for each Sleep you need.

As an interesting side effect, I reached level 8 on this re-test just before I was going to run into town and heal. I had 1610 gold as I hit 807 exp...in the previously recorded "I just hit level 8" savestate, I had 1433 gold at 807 exp! Wow, what a difference in gold! Was I actually needing to heal less often? No, that's probably just the massive payout from Wolflords, they give tons of gold and are still easy to kill. The segmented run will know what to do at level 7 now for sure. As for SS, well, just make sure your HP stays high (that would help in case of Warlock sleeplock too), re-sleep the Wolflords if you've only hit them once or twice, and don't push your luck with Wraiths.

Level 6: you don't even know Sleep yet, wtf

edit 2.5: At level 12 (10556 gold by now, extrapolating from a sandbar level 7 instead of Wolflords level 7), Wyverns die in 2 or 3 hits due to another huge boost in Strength. But one hit can do as much as 13 damage, so you might as well spend 2 MP for Sleep instead of 4 MP for Heal. I got killed by one due to unlucky dodging and a surprise round yet again...thankfully, you at least have the option of keeping your HP as high as 63. I have 55 defense power right now (just checked, I AM wearing a Dragon Scale...good). Don't Wyverns have an attack of 56?! Stupid Dragonlord keeping me from using a Str+Agi build!! Or maybe, if we had some extra cash at an earlier level, we could grab the Silver Shield sooner and then kill Wyverns properly.

I think I'm missing the point here. If I have to spend 2 MP in an area where I don't need to spend that MP at all, I'm wasting time. Wolflords and Wraiths get chopped to pieces in 2 hits every time. Then all my MP can go toward what little healing I need, instead of frequent trips to town. (yep, I just earned about 700 exp in the Wolflord hills, then died fighting a Warlock on the way back to town, OOPS)

Now just think if I had the Magic Armour...I was thinking "I wonder if all the times I stayed at the inn add up to 6200 gold" and then I realized there's no way I stayed there over 100 times. It feels like maybe 5 to 10 times per level. It should decrease because I simply gain more MP to work with, but the greater interval of EXP needed keeps the number of inn stays steady. Damn, I should have kept count while making these savestates ;_;

Indeed, it would be the only way we can measure if the extra 18 minutes of bottomless gold pulling pays off...measure the time it takes to return to Rimuldar and use the inn, then compare the number of inn trips between Full Plate and Magic Armour grinding segments. As an extra money trick, you could maybe even cash in your Magic Armour for a Full Plate and profit by 850 when you trade in right before you go for Erdrick's Armour.

Okay, I just hit level 13, and didn't notice I broke 14800 gold...oops. This is what happens when Dragon Warrior turns into Hydlide, me pressing Tab and X at the same time to grind enemies against my six-pack abs...anyway, this is a great savestate to have. Now I can see if Erdrick's Sword is retrievable without his Armour.

protip: only buy 5 Herbs in Garinham, there's a free one in a chest, although there's more text if you do it that way.

edit #too many: just beat the Axe Knight right after grabbing the Silver Harp at level 13, came down to the last hit, he used Sleep 3 times. I don't know if I got any excellent moves, frameskip was on for a lot of it. On to Golem!
...A STARWYVERN KILLED ME %$#!^#$^$
Maybe I should buy Herbs again right after.
This time I killed Golem and skipped Hauksness. He didn't even wake up and I raped him. lame. Suffice to say, if I go here first, I can even replenish all my Herbs if I use any, then Return/die to Tantegel to save before attempting the Axe Knight.
THEN I ANOTHER STARWYVERN KILLED ME BEFORE I COULD EVEN GET TO THE SWAMP GODDAMNIT
The Axe Knight seems noticeably easier with the Silver Shield...damage range seems to have gone from 20-29 to 15-26 or something. Minimum damage was lower than max damage, or so it seemed. I won with 35 HP left, wow.
LMFAO I GOT KILLED BY A STARWYVERN IN HAUKSNESS
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH THAT'S ENOUGH FOR TONIGHT

Ryan8bit

2010-01-26 08:45:35 am

Quote from ShinerCCC:

I checked out $95 and the value fluctuates on every frame in a completely unpredictable way. Yikes.

Yeah, like I said there's probably no good way to manipulate it without cheating. It calculates practically every frame unless you're walking.

Quote:

Stupid Dragonlord keeping me from using a Str+Agi build!!

If you're doing a segmented run, I don't think much is stopping you from choosing that build.

Pros:
Fight Wyverns sooner
Prolonged fighting around Hauksness sooner
Slightly easier running when getting Erdrick's Sword (although having lower HP might not help)
Slightly easier getting to the Dragonlord without dying

Cons:
Getting to Rimuldar at early levels will be a bit harder
Less HP will require more inn trips and shorter times in the field
The Dragonlord is a bit tougher to beat

So if you're just going to save before the Dragonlord, agility isn't going to be that much of a setback. This probably applies for a lot of things. Like, it's feasible to beat the Axe Knight at level 9, it's just very improbable. It would probably be beneficial for you to try it though.

Quote:

Indeed, it would be the only way we can measure if the extra 18 minutes of bottomless gold pulling pays off...measure the time it takes to return to Rimuldar and use the inn, then compare the number of inn trips between Full Plate and Magic Armour grinding segments.

I actually am testing this, but I haven't gotten very far yet. I've only tested grinding at level 5 so far and the improvement was only along the lines of 10 seconds (although that equates to something like 5%, so it could be more beneficial once you get to level 12).

The thing about Magic Armor is that it only gives 1 hp every 4 steps, and if you're walking in hills/desert, on average you'll only have 2 more hp per battle, which is pretty small. And switching to grass just to heal up would probably take longer than just breaking down and going to the inn. But there is the reduced damage from hurt, which might make Warlocks a touch easier. My preliminary guess is that it won't be worth the time.

I also plan on testing sleep like you've mentioned. I get the feeling that it will only be beneficial in close proximity to towns.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
I checked out $95 and the value fluctuates on every frame in a completely unpredictable way. Yikes.[/quote]

Yeah, like I said there's probably no good way to manipulate it without cheating.  It calculates practically every frame unless you're walking.

[quote]Stupid Dragonlord keeping me from using a Str+Agi build!![/quote]

If you're doing a segmented run, I don't think much is stopping you from choosing that build.

Pros:
Fight Wyverns sooner
Prolonged fighting around Hauksness sooner
Slightly easier running when getting Erdrick's Sword (although having lower HP might not help)
Slightly easier getting to the Dragonlord without dying

Cons:
Getting to Rimuldar at early levels will be a bit harder
Less HP will require more inn trips and shorter times in the field
The Dragonlord is a bit tougher to beat

So if you're just going to save before the Dragonlord, agility isn't going to be that much of a setback.  This probably applies for a lot of things.  Like, it's feasible to beat the Axe Knight at level 9, it's just very improbable.  It would probably be beneficial for you to try it though.

[quote]Indeed, it would be the only way we can measure if the extra 18 minutes of bottomless gold pulling pays off...measure the time it takes to return to Rimuldar and use the inn, then compare the number of inn trips between Full Plate and Magic Armour grinding segments.[/quote]

I actually am testing this, but I haven't gotten very far yet.  I've only tested grinding at level 5 so far and the improvement was only along the lines of 10 seconds (although that equates to something like 5%, so it could be more beneficial once you get to level 12).

The thing about Magic Armor is that it only gives 1 hp every 4 steps, and if you're walking in hills/desert, on average you'll only have 2 more hp per battle, which is pretty small.  And switching to grass just to heal up would probably take longer than just breaking down and going to the inn.  But there is the reduced damage from hurt, which might make Warlocks a touch easier.  My preliminary guess is that it won't be worth the time.

I also plan on testing sleep like you've mentioned.  I get the feeling that it will only be beneficial in close proximity to towns.

ShinerCCC

2010-01-26 11:03:33 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Eh, you take so much damage early on that Sleep really helps in the early going. Once you hit level 10 or so it becomes unnecessary.

I thought you said the Str+Agi growth could not reach the Dragonlord and kill him at level 18 out of about 2500 simulator attempts? Darkwing Duck said he never killed the Dragonlord with that build either. Well, when I get a savestate at that level, I'll use the Game Genie code that replaces Slime with Dragonlord and test out the slugfest empirically.

I also lied and got Erdrick's Sword with extreme ease right after I made that edit. I guess I had good luck, I didn't see any Stonemans and all the Axe Knights let me run away. Even that Blue Dragon let me escape pretty easily. Once you're climbing back up the stairs you're almost home free.

At level 13 I think Wyverns still do their high damage to you, even with the Silver Shield. What changed was the fact that having 70 max HP made it easier to survive an entire battle with one, I guess.

Right now I'm going to test getting Erdrick's Sword before SS or Erdrick's Armour. Should prove pretty impossible and pointless, since you have to warp away from the island to get the Silver Harp anyway...

If the Fighter's Ring actually added +2 str I bet the str+agi build would be more viable >_>

Eh, you take so much damage early on that Sleep really helps in the early going. Once you hit level 10 or so it becomes unnecessary.

I thought you said the Str+Agi growth could not reach the Dragonlord and kill him at level 18 out of about 2500 simulator attempts? Darkwing Duck said he never killed the Dragonlord with that build either. Well, when I get a savestate at that level, I'll use the Game Genie code that replaces Slime with Dragonlord and test out the slugfest empirically.

I also lied and got Erdrick's Sword with extreme ease right after I made that edit. I guess I had good luck, I didn't see any Stonemans and all the Axe Knights let me run away. Even that Blue Dragon let me escape pretty easily. Once you're climbing back up the stairs you're almost home free.

At level 13 I think Wyverns still do their high damage to you, even with the Silver Shield. What changed was the fact that having 70 max HP made it easier to survive an entire battle with one, I guess.

Right now I'm going to test getting Erdrick's Sword before SS or Erdrick's Armour. Should prove pretty impossible and pointless, since you have to warp away from the island to get the Silver Harp anyway...

If the Fighter's Ring actually added +2 str I bet the str+agi build would be more viable >_>

Ryan8bit

2010-01-27 09:42:35 am

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Eh, you take so much damage early on that Sleep really helps in the early going. Once you hit level 10 or so it becomes unnecessary.

Yeah, I figured. I'm sure it is helpful, and I wanted to test the benefits with the simulator just to be sure. Sometimes just a few experiences isn't enough, and that's why I came up with the simulator.

Quote:

I thought you said the Str+Agi growth could not reach the Dragonlord and kill him at level 18 out of about 2500 simulator attempts?

No, I don't think so (especially since I've never done any runs of 2500). I just said that it has more risk than Str+HP. Against the Dragonlord (not factoring in getting through Charlock) Str+HP risk is ~40% while Str+Agi risk is ~55%. That extra 15% is really something to consider if you were doing a single segment, but since you're not, it might be best for you to try Str+Agi. However, I haven't tested out if Agi is more worthwhile than HP in grinding and other various things.

Quote:

At level 13 I think Wyverns still do their high damage to you, even with the Silver Shield.

Is that with Full Plate or Erdrick's Armor? Either way they should be doing their low damage. They have 56 strength, and you have 23 base defense + 20 for the Silver Shield, 24 for the Full Plate, and 2 for the Dragon Scale, which totals up to 69, which should be more than enough. With long term agility, you should be able to fight Wyverns at level 12 with a Large Shield, Full Plate, and Dragon Scale. But with short term agility it would take until level 13. It remains to be seen how marginal that benefit really is.

Quote:

Right now I'm going to test getting Erdrick's Sword before SS or Erdrick's Armour.

Without testing, I'm just guessing that it's not going to be of any benefit, especially for a segmented run. Like I said, you could beat the Axe Knight at level 9. Without having to create too many segments, I doubt you could get all the stuff for the Rainbow Drop and make it through Charlock at level 9. Who knows though? Maybe you could make a segment for each piece and try to attack it at an early level like 7. It might take hundreds of tries, but it would be impressive and it might save some time. I'll have to run some sims on this soon.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
Eh, you take so much damage early on that Sleep really helps in the early going. Once you hit level 10 or so it becomes unnecessary.[/quote]

Yeah, I figured.  I'm sure it is helpful, and I wanted to test the benefits with the simulator just to be sure.  Sometimes just a few experiences isn't enough, and that's why I came up with the simulator.

[quote]I thought you said the Str+Agi growth could not reach the Dragonlord and kill him at level 18 out of about 2500 simulator attempts?[/quote]

No, I don't think so (especially since I've never done any runs of 2500).  I just said that it has more risk than Str+HP.  Against the Dragonlord (not factoring in getting through Charlock) Str+HP risk is ~40% while Str+Agi risk is ~55%.  That extra 15% is really something to consider if you were doing a single segment, but since you're not, it might be best for you to try Str+Agi.  However, I haven't tested out if Agi is more worthwhile than HP in grinding and other various things.

[quote]At level 13 I think Wyverns still do their high damage to you, even with the Silver Shield.[/quote]

Is that with Full Plate or Erdrick's Armor?  Either way they should be doing their low damage.  They have 56 strength, and you have 23 base defense + 20 for the Silver Shield, 24 for the Full Plate, and 2 for the Dragon Scale, which totals up to 69, which should be more than enough.  With long term agility, you should be able to fight Wyverns at level 12 with a Large Shield, Full Plate, and Dragon Scale.  But with short term agility it would take until level 13.  It remains to be seen how marginal that benefit really is.

[quote]Right now I'm going to test getting Erdrick's Sword before SS or Erdrick's Armour.
[/quote]

Without testing, I'm just guessing that it's not going to be of any benefit, especially for a segmented run.  Like I said, you could beat the Axe Knight at level 9.  Without having to create too many segments, I doubt you could get all the stuff for the Rainbow Drop and make it through Charlock at level 9.  Who knows though?  Maybe you could make a segment for each piece and try to attack it at an early level like 7.  It might take hundreds of tries, but it would be impressive and it might save some time.  I'll have to run some sims on this soon.