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Darkwing Duck: 2010-04-04 12:26:47 am
Highly Evolved
Joined up to hopefully get some additional insight on this run.

I've been looking at and testing this for a couple of weeks.  Looks like I can do it in under 5:30 with the strategies I've come up with.  I haven't dealt with Zoma or Alefgard yet on my trial run, but I've got Baramos down at 4 hours.

My routes are still in somewhat a state of Limbo.  I haven't found the optimal path between Kandar ver. 2 and the Necrogond.  This is the time I have to do levelling, too, which has taken at least an hour each time.  Not sure if there is a quicker way to level up than what I've done.

Anyway, thoughts and discussion would be appreciated.
Thread title:  
Edit history:
Red_Scarlet: 2007-01-25 11:55:24 pm
"I like to watch"
I doubt my Super Famicom video would help, but I went through with just a hero in that.  What is your party in the NES one?

What's your pre-route, and do you know of various spots to level up early on in the game?  Which ones do you utilize?

I've seen videos of it for the Famicom version but never tried in the NES version, but do Medical Herbs do 200+ to Zoma in the NES one?
Edit history:
Darkwing Duck: 2007-01-25 11:59:25 pm
Highly Evolved
Haven't heard of Herbs hurting Zoma.  I kill him without TOO much trouble.

My party is three fighters, one I turn into a Sage.

There are four levelling areas, really.  Tower of Garuna (Metal Slimes),  Leaf of World Tree area (Metal Slimes), Volcano (PoP type area), Cave of Jipang (Metal Slimes and Orochi abuse).  I use the Tower of Garuna and Cave of Jipang. 


EDIT:  I know of your run.  I haven't seen it.  From what I've read, the two are quite different, or at least different enough that it isn't of much use.  Same for DWIII on the GBC.
Also tenkiforecast
I played the GBC port of DWIII, but I remember some things about it.

With 3 fighters, I can understand why you decided to. Fast, and powerful. One idea I can think of is Thief, for the 'Tiptoe' spell, so you won't have to buy repels, or use teh hero's spell, and anyways, the Repel magic doesn't always work anyway.
Edit history:
Red_Scarlet: 2007-01-26 05:10:19 am
"I like to watch"
Quote:
Haven't heard of Herbs hurting Zoma.  I kill him without TOO much trouble.

My party is three fighters, one I turn into a Sage.

There are four levelling areas, really.  Tower of Garuna (Metal Slimes),  Leaf of World Tree area (Metal Slimes), Volcano (PoP type area), Cave of Jipang (Metal Slimes and Orochi abuse).  I use the Tower of Garuna and Cave of Jipang. 


EDIT:  I know of your run.  I haven't seen it.  From what I've read, the two are quite different, or at least different enough that it isn't of much use.  Same for DWIII on the GBC.


There's also east of Kanave, where you fight badguys by the Leaf of World Tree/Dragon Queen's Castle (but not Metal Slimes).  You know about the Zombie Killer 'trick' with Metals, right?

Well, my run would show maybe a pre-route and give you something to make adjustments from.  Healing spells hurt Zoma, and they do 200+ to him on the Famicom version, so you may want to try them out on the NES one.  200 damage is I would imagine much more than what your party could do otherwise.

Have you tried with varying # of party members?  I imagine you're going to use parry-fight, right?  What about the hero gets spells one (make too many party members)?

Quote:
I played the GBC port of DWIII, but I remember some things about it.

With 3 fighters, I can understand why you decided to. Fast, and powerful. One idea I can think of is Thief, for the 'Tiptoe' spell, so you won't have to buy repels, or use teh hero's spell, and anyways, the Repel magic doesn't always work anyway.


Thief isn't in the NES version and repel won't be helpful at low levels.
March 16, 2010
It's an ambitious run but also the prequel to DW1 - a game a lot of people can't speedrun let alone beat.

I had trouble with Zoma when I originally played - he's way tougher than the ole Dragonlord.  But when you get the ending it is all worth it.

Good luck and I look forward to any progress.
Highly Evolved
Well, my fighting pattern for Zoma is pretty set.

One fighter and Hero always attack.  Other fighter spams Sage's Stone.  Sage does rotation of Sap, Bikill on Hero, Bikill on Fighter, Heal.  Start once freezing waves occur.  Assuming no waves occur, both Fighter and Hero do 200+ damage.  What healing spells give 200+ damage?  I'm lucky if I get Healall.  In a practice run, I got it the last random encounter of the game.

Parry Fight is a staple of my run.

First Segment I get only a chain sickle up to Romaly.  I register three fighters, a merchant, and two Soldiers.  Take the soldiers, sell equpment, drop them off, get Fighters.  I'm only 23 gold from a chain sickle after three sets of soldier's gear is sold (including 75 for Copper Sword ). 

Return is absolutely necessary, so I can't use that glitch until it's a waste of time to do so.

I actually found the Zombie Slasher/slime glitch in my practicing.  Too unreliable to count on.  Sky Dragon and slime combos are a rare occurrence.  It's more efficient at the time I have the Zombie Slasher to Orochi abuse.

I need the four party members.  I do a lot of THKOing in the run, so I need four adequate fighters.  Near the end, two fighter's attacks about equals a Sword of Kings + Zombie Slasher.
Edit history:
Darkwing Duck: 2007-01-26 09:56:40 pm
Highly Evolved
Hmm...After doing the Rainbow Drop segment, I'm at 4:41.12 for the test run.  I think Zoma goes down in about a half an hour.  I didn't time it during the practice segments, but I believe it's around that time.  With the optimal route and minimalization of mistakes, sub 5 is doable. 

I'll have 11 segments total.  Here's how they breakdown right now.  They are subject to change.

#1.  Beginning to Romaly
#2.  Romaly to Isis
#3.  Isis to Dhama after Kandar ver. 2
#4.  Levelling
#5.  Final Key+Green orb+Red Orb+Boss Troll
#6.  Orochi abuse levelling/Purple Orb+Sword of Gaia
#7.  Necrogond
#8.  Yellow, Blue Orb.  Ramia
#9.  Baramos
#10. Rainbow Drop
#11. Zoma

Segments 1, 3, 7, 9-11 are pretty set as far as route goes I think.  The other segments can be changed to optimize the time.

#2.  Luck abuse would be a major pain if I have to do it twice.  I need to win at the monster fights to get enough gold for the first Iron Claw.  The only low odds monster to win often is the Masked Moth vs. Froggore and Babble.  That's about a 10x win, giving me 500 and enough for one claw and well on the way for the second.  I guess I could try to manipulate it to get more money, but I'd lose a couple of levels which I need for the pyramid.

#4.  I can level at any of those levelling spots, so it's just determining which one is fastest.  I think Garuna is fastest overall.  I may want to hit the Orochi once to get the sword.  Makes Tortagons more managable.

#5.  This one is a pain for a route.  The biggest issue is Samanao.  I need the final key to get there, and I need the Lamp of Darkness for the Boss Troll.  The problem is that I need the final key to get the orb in Tedanki as well.  So I need to double back somewhere.  I think in the end, I have to go to Samanao first and then return out.  I also have the problem of optimizing the Green orb and dropping the merchant off for the yellow orb.  This route has been in flux because I am not completely sure the triggers for new town growth.  Seems to be hard saves.  The interesting thing here is that it might be quicker to spam saves than anything else.  I'm not totally sure here.

#6.  I think I want to Orochi abuse up to fighter Lv. 25.  The Necrogond needs about 12 healmores from sage plus healing from Hero. 

#8.  All depends on yellow orb.  I can change routes as necessary to get it.  If I have to use a hard save segment in between yellow and blue, than I have 12 segments.
Highly Evolved
Well, I have a final time of 5:26.01.  I had forgotten how long Zoma is.  Plus I didn't get the Ball of Light in the earlier segment so I have to get it here. 

Zoma was very mundane in his attacks, so I tried a healmore on Zoma.  Did 86 damage.  Bikill helps my guys out a little more, so I'll do that if A) no one needs extra healing that the Stone can't provide and B) I have the magic to do so.  After freezing waves, Sap is a MUST.  Plus, I got unlucky and got only three uses of the Wizard's Ring.

I think in a taped run, I'd definitely redo the last segment.  Lots of Swordoids and not enough Lionroars.  Pretty magic intensive.  The Ortega fight dragged on.  Baramos Bomus took I think two extra rounds.  Wasn't the fasted run at 44:49.

By the way, that Boomerang weapon in the remake makes a solo quest SO much easier.
Edit history:
Red_Scarlet: 2007-01-27 08:39:58 am
"I like to watch"
Try using a Medical Herb.  It supposedly can do 250+ for each one, so you could kill Zoma in like 2 rounds probably.  Healall does not do as much as what I saw a Medical Herb do in a video.  Let me find the video I saw it from.  Ok, I'm not seeing it on youtube.  It was a low level game though.  I'm really curious if an herb does that much on Zoma like I saw.

Yeah I know the boomerang makes it easier, I did a Hero solo many years ago on the NES version.  I used a Game Genie to have 999HP though for that.  I was like 8 so it was cool to try back then.

Could you not warp to Aliahan (or is Noaniels closer?) after getting the boat, then sail to Lancel for the Invisibility Herb, then warp to Noaniels to get the vase at Eginbear, then warp to Aliahan and recruit a Merchant, then sail to the Final Key, then warp to Portoga and drop the Merchant off then sail to the warp gate to Samanao?  Of course this doesn't figure in getting the 4th party member back after dropping the merchant off or when to warp to Portoga to go to Tedanki, but you could go and get the Lamp of Darkness and Green Orb in one trip. 

On the flipside, after doing the above and getting Samanao on your warp list, you could then warp to Lancel and get the Blue Orb and Armor of Terrafirma (if you get that), then warp to Aliahan and get the 4th party member again, then sail to the Red Orb, THEN maybe warp to Portoga and then go get the Green Orb and Lamp of Darkness, then simply warp to Samanao then go through the cave and get the Mirror of Ra.

Or something like that.  Going by you mentioning an Iron Claw, I'm guessing you stop at Kanave, so Noaniels is right there if just to warp to later (I forget where the boat shows up if you warp to Kanave).
We deal in lead.
The remake of this game was one of my favorite RPGs. I'm looking forward to this one, I love the Dragon Warrior games. =D
Highly Evolved
I'll try the medical herb tonight and see what happens.

WHOA.  Is Eginbear closer to Noaniels?  I always use Portoga. 

Hmm...That might be the best route.  It sounds good.  Here are my counterpoints to that.

Can I survive to Samanao with three guys?  Will the merchant survive the longer trip?  Is the EXP loss going to be a problem? 

I think getting to Samanao with three guys shouldn't be an issue.  I'll be at Level 20/21 with the fighters, so it shouldn't be an issue.  Plus, New Town is the only other close place to Samanao's warp shrine.  The shoals for the Final Key being the other. 

The merchant surviving is an issue, but in a segmented speed run, it shouldn't be something to be too concerned with.  Repel will sort of work, so I won't waste as much time levelling him/her up, but the fewer enemies the better.

The EXP thing is definitely one I need to worry about.  I need Healmore for the Necrogond and Bikill for Baramos, both spells I get soon before going to each location, Bikill moreso, so I'm reluctant to give up the sage, especially since this is the time immediately after getting the sage.  The fighters have a big Strength gain at Lv. 34, and it's very useful for Zoma.  If the medical herbs hit that much in the NES version, it'll make that point moot. 

So in the end, that's probably the best route.  I think it's faster to go to Tedanki from Lancel.  I'm not 100% positive on that.

The Kanave return ship location is a few squares to the right of the Noaniels one, I believe.  I should get the Noaniels return for the Sword of Gaia anyway.

I am doing the Necrogond before the Blue Orb.  If I did the Blue Orb first, I go in with Orochi Sword and Leather Armor.  After the Necrogond, I go in with Thunder Sword and Swordedge Armor.  It's a cakewalk.  No healing is really necessary unless I get ambushed by four Firebal happy Hunter Flies (that was really annoying), plus multiple enemies are quicker due to Thunder Sword's Boom. 

Quick thought, should I get the Sailor's Thigh Bone after getting the Red Orb?  Seems I can save returning if I do that.
Highly Evolved
Well, I tried it out. 

Had three medical herbs to use.  If I remember right, I had hero use two and sage use one.

Hero did 100 and 110 damage.  Sage did 60 damage.

Almost seemed like the medical herb was based on AP. 

I think I need to make one more trial run, then I can think about taping.
"I like to watch"
Hm, well that sucks.  I wish I could find that video.

If you can upload your pre-run or run before sending in a tape I would absolutely love to see it.

I'm still tempted to try a faster hero solo on the remake but I haven't done anything with it.
Edit history:
Darkwing Duck: 2007-01-30 08:40:46 am
Highly Evolved
Well, I'm not technically advanced let's say, so I have no idea how to upload/convert VHS tapes.

On another note.  Segment one kicked my butt several times last night.  Sleep from Hares.  Froggores going after the back character.  Horrible level ups.  Poison from Babbles.  Mistakes (Went into the woods. Got ahead of myself and skipped the woods area straight to the cave, so I pushed down, taking me back out of the woods.  One step random battle with one rabbit and three anteaters.  Grr.)

Let's hope tonight is better.  I don't know if I'll gain any time from the first practice segment, though.

EDIT:  Dammit!  Was about five steps from the warp when I got ambushed and died.  Was at a good time, too.  I don't understand what's going on here.
Edit history:
Darkwing Duck: 2007-01-30 09:35:33 pm
Highly Evolved
Man.  I had little trouble in my other practice runs on Segment one.  This time, my lv. 2 and lv. 3 increases have been bad for the past 5-6 tries.

I did finish it one time, at 29:09, which is 2.5 minutes ahead of my previous time.  The problem is that I'm at level 4, early in level 4, which is a big problem. I need to be at level 5.  I had to do more running, as I got nothing but groups of four, which I can't kill.  I lost all three fighters, so had to continue running.  The next segment would be much harder and unlikely to succeed with my characters the way they are.  I think I need a little more gold, too.  It'll take longer getting three claws than it should, so I lose the time back. 

EDIT:  Continued issues.  I went up six levels with my fighters on one failed try.  Only twice did any get HP boosts.  Terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible level ups.  I'm getting really frustrated now.
Highly Evolved
Well.  Finally got a decent first segment runthrough.

Unfortunately, it's two and a half minutes longer than my first timed practice run.  I'll keep it, though, and continue on.  Segment two is one that I could tweak as far as routes go.

First thing is that I luck manipulate the casino to get enough money to buy an Iron Claw.  I need about 270 GP to do that.  I'm at level 5 for the fighters and 4 for the hero, so tickets will be 50, so I need 5.4 odds to have enough.  Masked Moths at ~10.0 odds against Froggore and Babble is the desired path.  MMs win a good deal of the time due to Surround.

Once I have the cash, I trudge to Kanave and hope to survive, buy a claw, heal, head back out.  I fight enough enemies (Killer Bees are the best here) to get another claw.  In this case I'll stop in Noaniels so I can return later.  After the second claw is purchased, I head to the Tower of Shanpane.  I go to level 3 and get the 384 gold piece chest up there, fall off and walk back to Kanave and buy the third claw.  At this point, I should be around 200-400 GP, so I'll fight more enemies and buy a fighter's suit for my lead fighter. 

I'll then Return to Romaly, walk to Assaram.  Heal there, walk to Isis, heal if needed, get the Meteorite Armband, equip to Hero and save.  I should be at Level 9 at the end of the segment.  My timed practice run had me doing this in 44:45 with a total time of 1:16.28.  With being a couple minutes behind, I hope to shave a minute or two off segment two and be a minute or so behind that time with this practic run.
Highly Evolved
Well, my prediction of gaining a minute in segment two was wrong.  I gained nine minutes.  Shocked  35:26

So, I'm ahead in this practice run by about six and a half minutes.  Total I'm at 1:09.44.

Stats wise, I'm slightly ahead in HP, but comparatively a little lower in Strength.  I'm also a little behind in experience.  My hero isn't nine yet.  This shouldn't be a huge deal, as I should still be able to THKO King Froggores and Mummy Men in the pyramid, and hopefully get a good stat gain at levels 10-12 for Kandar Ver. 2.

First timed run at Segment three took awhile to get.  My previous practice runs weren't too bad, but not in the timed run.  Had a time of 39:48 and total time at 1:56.12.  I should be below 1:50 after this segment.  Lots of stuff happens in this segment to beat me, mostly in the pyramid.  Sleep, terrible blows, ambushes, Trick Bags with Surround, all are a pain.  I have less issues in the latter half of the run, that is unless I get ambushed by Firebal happy Hunter Flies.  Once I get to Baharata, I have to really stock up on medical herbs, as I will likely have my MP stolen away by Catulas. Kandar himself is quite easy, just long with his regeneration.  If I'm low on herbs, the few steps up to Dhama can be a little nerve racking. 
"I like to watch"
I doubt it would be helpful (useless after getting the ship), but would the first Kandar's experience be helpful? It's only 1000 or so though and way out of the way..
Edit history:
Darkwing Duck: 2007-02-01 06:32:50 am
Highly Evolved
Gold is more important at that stage, and Kandar doesn't give any.  I can speed through faster without going after Ver. 1 even though I go all the way to the third floor in the Tower of Shanpane.  I'd likely die.  Plus, when I level, I'm going after metal slimes that give more than Kandar ver. 1.  I have little difficulty getting to Dhama after Kandar ver. 2 at level 12, which I get to almost every time I run through.  As I'll explain in a moment, there's a great exp. well before Dhama.

I just finished practice segment 3.  Solid segment.  It's pretty simple and relatively easy after the pyramid.  My time this round was 39:17, as opposed to 39:48 in my other timed run.  Random factors will fluctuate the time a couple of minutes or so, like amount of crits against Kandar ver. 2, so anything under 40:00 is good.  Total time at this point from previous timed run: 1:56.12.  Current Run:  1:49.01

Running up the pyramid is annoying.  Most of the failures are due to sleep from King Froggores.  Mummy Men have a propensity to hit the unparried back character.  This is not the place where I get my exp. in this segment, so I take out what I can and hope to run from others.  In this run, I have significantly less MP for my Hero, so I have bought a few more herbs to compensate.  I only got two heals because I need return to go to Romaly after getting out.  I go to Portoga hoping for as many Lumpus that I can manage, and go in the city.  Take a few extra seconds to restock (won't do if I have high MP) on herbs and get the scroll.  Return to Assaram, rest, go through Norud's cave.  I grab the Training suit and give to the back fighter.  It's not too much a waste, and useful, if you ask me.  Go through to Baharata.

This is one of the areas I want to hit enemies, because I'm fast enough and almost guarantee a THKO over anything but Heat Clouds and Avenger Jackals with my Hero.  It's good experience, and I get to Level 10 on the way.

In Baharata, I near max out my inventory with herbs.  Catulas steal MP.  I get a wing to go back to Baharata with in the next segment.

The cave in this run was absolutely perfect.  I fought ZERO enemies on the way through the first floor.  The basement is void of randoms, so I pick up the seeds, give all but the acorns to hero and give the front fighter the acorns.  Fill hero up with herbs and fight Kandar Ver. 2.  He isn't trouble at all, just takes awhile to kill.  My fighters are a little low in strength, but enough to stay ahead of the regen in my hero has to heal.  I had three crits and still took many rounds.

On the way out, I was bombarded with Catuals.  This is good.  With the level up from Kandar, I occasionally OHKO with my fighters.  Catulas love to call reinforcements.  I don't get hit much and get bunches of exp. from all the help.  I gain another level up, to 12, on the way out.  Make it to Dhama and save.  Excellent segment.  I can only hope the taped run is as good.

Next segment is the boring one.  The levelling one.  I'm hoping to get to level 20 in the Tower of Garuna in one visit.  It's not easy and dependent on lots of luck, but that's the plan.
"I like to watch"
Would those Simiac guys be useful for experience? Or are they no-go's due to their ability to perform criticals?

Are you getting killed on purpose any time?

Would any other monsters that call for help be useful? Early on, Scorpion Wasps seem like an ok source of money, and I forget how good/bad Army Crabs are.  I highly doubt Slime Snaii's (that's what the game says!) are worth it at all.

Are you going to fight Goopi's/Granite Titans?
Highly Evolved
Quote:
Would those Simiac guys be useful for experience? Or are they no-go's due to their ability to perform criticals?

Are you getting killed on purpose any time?

Would any other monsters that call for help be useful? Early on, Scorpion Wasps seem like an ok source of money, and I forget how good/bad Army Crabs are.  I highly doubt Slime Snaii's (that's what the game says!) are worth it at all.

Are you going to fight Goopi's/Granite Titans?



I'm levelling in two places.  This segment has me going to the Tower of Garuna to level to as close to 20 as I can.  After this segment, and some Orochi abuse in segment 7 to get to 24/25 for my fighters, I won't have need to power level again.  Army Crabs are the devil.  They're a three hit kill with claws at that point in the game.  I'll run from more than one of them.  Granite Titans I want to avoid, so I don't look forward to Goopi battles.  I actually do like Scorpion Wasps.  When the alternative are babbles, hares, and magicians, wasps are a delight to see. 

I don't abuse Catulas.  I always fight.  It wouldn't be faster in the long run than metal hunting I think, especially after level 14. 

I don't death abuse, no.  The only time where dieing is OK is in the pyramid, but an unexpected death doesn't look all that good, and I don't want a death abuse tag.  Losing a character doesn't necessarily mandate a reset, though.  I lose about 30 seconds to revive, but the extra exp. for the other characters is the plus.
"I like to watch"
Are you doing anything specific for the Metal Slimes in the Garuna Tower? Going with the 3 Fighters hoping for more crits, or are you going to venture to Muor and pick up the Poison Moth Powder stuff (is it sold at Muor in the original)?

Also, are you bringing any female party members? That Sword of Illusion (I forget its name, its that sword a lady in Portoga gives you after beating Baramos) could be handy if you bump into Metal Babbles later.
Highly Evolved
Quote:
Are you doing anything specific for the Metal Slimes in the Garuna Tower? Going with the 3 Fighters hoping for more crits, or are you going to venture to Muor and pick up the Poison Moth Powder stuff (is it sold at Muor in the original)?

Also, are you bringing any female party members? That Sword of Illusion (I forget its name, its that sword a lady in Portoga gives you after beating Baramos) could be handy if you bump into Metal Babbles later.


Yep.  Going for Crits.  However, I do kill a good deal of them from regular hits.  It's really unlucky when I get a third hit, it doesn't die, and then it runs.  Slimes have a relatively low flee rate.  I'm guessing 50%.  I get lots of chances.

This segment is hard to get to Lv. 20.  Firebane from Garudas and Sky Dragon Breath are the killers. 

I usually go two female fighters and a male fighter, and turn a female into a sage (I like the female sage sprite better).  I don't go searching Metal Babbles out, so I don't deal with anything to kill them.  I'm lucky if I get one kill in a run.  It's not necessary, so I don't do it.

Going to Muor has three strikes against it.  It takes too long.  Enemies are hard getting there.  I need inventory for herbs.  I max out inventory on herbs.  I try to get to Lv. 20 from 12, which is about 38,000 exp.  I need the herbs to last near that long.

What I may have to do is dump the tower around 18-19 if I can get to that point and do the Final Key segment, hoping to get the one fighter to 20 on the way since I'll have some time with only three characters.  Getting to Level 20 in the tower seems unrealistic.  Haven't been able to do that in the practice runs.

Highly Evolved
Hmm...Having trouble with this segment.  I start off at Lv. 12 and it seems I can only get to Lv. 18 on one trip.  That's the best case scenario.  Death is of course the worst (actually forgetting to start the timer is).  Hopefully in the real run, I'll have more than 20 MP for my hero.

If getting to 18 is the best I can do, I'll have to think of another plan.  The plans I have aren't time constructive though.  Problem is MP consumtion with my Returns.  I guess I'll save 8MP and walk out of the Tower.  This is a problem since there's a bunch of walking after getting the Book of Satori.  After getting out of the Tower, return to Portoga, get the ship after resting, return to Dhama, go through Orochi until Lv. 20 and then save.  This might add a few minutes, but it seems to be necessary.