Dragon Warrior 4 (At the moment, planning)

2010-02-23 12:21:47 pm

Since there's no real discussion of Dragon Warrior 4 anywhere else, I figured I'd post a topic for it, as I think I might be insane enough to try it, over summer. Yeah, this is a bit in advance for a run that I'm planning on starting in summer, but that's when I'll have a bunch of free time. Until then, however, I'm thinking of planning.
There's a TAS for this game that I'm going to study, but I'm ... doubtful of how much use it will be, given that he manipulates luck in, literally, every single fight in the game. Mostly, I'm wondering how much information there is about the game, in terms of AI tables and zones where enemies are. Being someone new to SDA, I ... have no clue about where to find stuff like that.
I've played this game a *stupidly* large number of times, and I know a decent number of tricks to speed things up, and things that work to manip. the AI of the characters in ch. 5. Tho, I think it'd be fair to accept a run for this game where the other characters can be directly controlled. Different category, tho.
So, there's a lot of things that make things random in this game, mostly the combats - There's no reliable way to run, though fairy water will help, in some aspects. The early chapters will be... interesting, though, to say the least.
First thing's first, I suppose, would be to map out the optimal paths through each dungeon. Fortunately, there are maps on GameFAQs for every dungeon.

And this would be, of course, segmented. SS would be ... insane, without taking the time to ensure victory.

Ch. 1 seems like it'd be pretty easy. Ch. 2 will be ... easy, up to the arena. Ch. 3 seems like it'd be the first place where route optimization can really be done, hardcore. I, honestly, have no idea how I'll do this chapter. Ch. 4 will be rushing to Orin and then letting him be the muscle. And Ch. 5 ... wellp.

Thread title:

Since there's no real discussion of Dragon Warrior 4 anywhere else, I figured I'd post a topic for it, as I think I might be insane enough to try it, over summer. Yeah, this is a bit in advance for a run that I'm planning on starting in summer, but that's when I'll have a bunch of free time. Until then, however, I'm thinking of planning.
There's a TAS for this game that I'm going to study, but I'm ... doubtful of how much use it will be, given that he manipulates luck in, literally, every single fight in the game. Mostly, I'm wondering how much information there is about the game, in terms of AI tables and zones where enemies are. Being someone new to SDA, I ... have no clue about where to find stuff like that. 
I've played this game a *stupidly* large number of times, and I know a decent number of tricks to speed things up, and things that work to manip. the AI of the characters in ch. 5. Tho, I think it'd be fair to accept a run for this game where the other characters can be directly controlled. Different category, tho.
So, there's a lot of things that make things random in this game, mostly the combats - There's no reliable way to run, though fairy water will help, in some aspects. The early chapters will be... interesting, though, to say the least.
First thing's first, I suppose, would be to map out the optimal paths through each dungeon. Fortunately, there are maps on GameFAQs for every dungeon.

And this would be, of course, segmented. SS would be ... insane, without taking the time to ensure victory.

Ch. 1 seems like it'd be pretty easy. Ch. 2 will be ... easy, up to the arena. Ch. 3 seems like it'd be the first place where route optimization can really be done, hardcore. I, honestly, have no idea how I'll do this chapter. Ch. 4 will be rushing to Orin and then letting him be the muscle. And Ch. 5 ... wellp.

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-23 01:28:43 pm

Highly Evolved

You will have competition once I get around to finishing the SS Dragon Warrior run, to let you know. And if you think I'm not crazy enough, Dragon Warrior II is in my future as well.

The TAS is good for route planning, and that's about it. DW IV has a lot of things similar to DW III, so it'll be a bit easier for me. Chapter 5 is actually pretty easy to plan out route wise for a speedrun. Only a few variables, actually. Chapter 3 is interesting since you can't manipulate Broad Swords and Half Plates like the TAS does.

rekenner

2010-02-23 02:00:16 pm

I'm mostly wondering, with ch.3, if getting a SoM is worth it. Also, if anyone has enough patience to get one in one day of shopping.
And then, really, the best way to earn quick money at the end of the game.

And - What similarities do 3 and 4 have that'd help? I mean, they're the most mechanically similar two, of course, but the way you put that has me interested.

Good to know there's other interest in this game, tho!

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-23 03:04:58 pm

Highly Evolved

HP and MP gain on level ups are pretty much the same formula. I believe criticals are calculated the same. And as you mentioned, the mechanics are very similar, and I spent two plus years learning about DW III before a run came out.

For Ch. 3, since it's the beginning of a segment, a SoM is probably likely. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to not believe that two Swords of Malice in one day are needed so that you can sell one for a good chunk of gold and still be able to buy one later. Gold accumulation is such an interesting plan to figure out.

rekenner

2010-02-23 03:52:42 pm

... the idea of getting 2 SoMs in a day, while probably the best idea, is making me think of an emote from Something Awful.

(Further, I wonder if it's possible to. A look into the code that figures that all out might be required here.)

Gahaha...
But, I read your DW3 thread. That is *might* impressive work, I have to say. I wonder if the sort of info you used is out there for 4.

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-23 04:38:54 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from rekenner:

... the idea of getting 2 SoMs in a day, while probably the best idea, is making me think of an emote from Something Awful.

(Further, I wonder if it's possible to. A look into the code that figures that all out might be required here.)

Gahaha...
But, I read your DW3 thread. That is *might* impressive work, I have to say. I wonder if the sort of info you used is out there for 4.

It's only 5 minutes into a segment, so it isn't that big of a deal to me. I do know it's possible to get two. It's very common to get 2+ with the other limited weapons, like the boomerang and Chain Sickle.

What would be very nice is a beastiary. Percentages and weaknesses are important in dealing with random encounters. Leveling portions are easy to figure out, so encounter rates aren't as important.

Fairy waters only work if you're a higher level than the possible encounter. In DW III it was ten levels above, and I was never in that position save a couple of times. It won't be that useful in DW IV unless you've decided to level up pretty high and on the way to Stancia or maybe Riverton.

[quote="rekenner"]
... the idea of getting 2 SoMs in a day, while probably the best idea, is making me think of an emote from Something Awful.
[img]http://sae.tweek.us/static/images/emoticons/emot-suicide.gif[/img]

(Further, I wonder if it's possible to. A look into the code that figures that all out might be required here.)

Gahaha...
But, I read your DW3 thread. That is *might* impressive work, I have to say. I wonder if the sort of info you used is out there for 4.
[/quote]

It's only 5 minutes into a segment, so it isn't that big of a deal to me.  I do know it's possible to get two.  It's very common to get 2+ with the other limited weapons, like the boomerang and Chain Sickle.

What would be very nice is a beastiary.  Percentages and weaknesses are important in dealing with random encounters.  Leveling portions are easy to figure out, so encounter rates aren't as important.

Fairy waters only work if you're a higher level than the possible encounter.  In DW III it was ten levels above, and I was never in that position save a couple of times.  It won't be that useful in DW IV unless you've decided to level up pretty high and on the way to Stancia or maybe Riverton.

rekenner

2010-02-23 06:42:15 pm

Jeezus. It's 10 levels higher? Insane. I figured it was just straight higher. Fair enough. Your post on when to run and when not to was great, though, I have to say.
And, while it's only 5 minutes into a segment, it's a 5 minutes I'd have to do ... what, a hundred times? Something like that? Given that it seems to take like 15-20 days to do it for one day of shop working. Hell, if you wanted to get technical, the fastest would be getting 2 immediately with the third person wanting to buy it! ... but, yeah, no, I'd settle for 2 in a day, I suppose.

Though, I was thinking for my only major leveling trip, waiting for the Royal Crypt. There's so many Metal Babbles there, and you get there fairly quick, that I think I could make it there. Ideally, I'd never level, as one you get shield that reflect, you can kill Metal Babbles like no one's fucking business, as reflected magic damage gets reflected back as guaranteed damage. I mean, if I can hit Final Cave by mid-20s, I'm set.

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-23 06:58:27 pm

Highly Evolved

Well, as far as levels go, there has to be something to shoot for. It's always a balance of time to grind vs. time lost to being underleveled.

In DW III, I HAD to have stepguard. I also believed I had to have Bikill for Baramos, but I ended up defeating him 77 exp short of getting it. Should I return to the game, I can take less time to grind up those extra couple of levels since everything after Baramos is doable at a couple less levels (although the Tower West of Kol will be a major pain in the ass).

Throw out some thoughts on Ch. 5. I want to see stuff on parties for caves, equipment for caves. Minimum levels, item use, that sort of thing.

chessjerk

2010-02-23 07:38:31 pm

I have been considering this game for a while myself. I even had a (very rough) estimate of a possible segment list and guesses on timing for Chapters 1 and 2, although it could certainly be tightened up quite a bit. Here's my notes:

Chapter 1

Segment 1

Get Medical Herb in fourth drawer
Leave via bottom of town
Go to cave
Get 40 gold in cave
Buy 4 Medical Herbs, Wooden Hat
Walk around, go to Izmit at night
Talk to Alex
Go back to Burland, talk to Flora
Walk to Izmit
Take Flora to Alex, save

Segment 2

Walk to hidden playground
Go down, down, down to 2nd floor
Go right, get Healie
Get 600 gold, Flying Shoes
Leave, get Medical Herb, Agility Seed on way out
Sell Copper Sword, Leather Armor, buy Half Plate Armor @ Izmit, save

Segment 3

Use Flying Shoes
Get Wings on third floor
Get Scale Shield on the second floor
Get Sword of Malice on first floor
Heal up, face boss, save one Herb for battle
Attack Saro’s Shadow until dead, then attack Eye (probably lose if Healie dies quickly)
Go outside, use Shoes, jump off, walk to Izmit
Use Wings, return to Burland

Total Chapter 1 – 30 minutes

Chapter 2

Segment 4

Talk to Brey, left soldier, Cristo
Find Fairy Water and Feather Hat in castle (both second drawer)
Fight battles, walk to Surene, buy Thorn Whip for Cristo, give Club to Alena
Get to level 4, rest, save

Segment 5

Walk to Tempe, fight boss (Cristo using Upper and Brey using Icebolt/Sap)
Buy Boomerang for Cristo, move Thorn Whip to Alena
Walk to Frenor, watch event at inn, go back and rest, save

Segment 6

Go to Bazaar, get Strength Seed in left pot, talk to the soldier, buy 5 Wings
Fight to level up to 7/8 to get Outside, rest when needed
Return to Frenor, but Chain Mail for Cristo, move Wayfarer’s to Brey, rest, save

Segment 7

Go to cave, get Golden Bracelet (pass all treasure), Outside
Walk around until night, go to Frenor, get Thief Key @ night, rest, save

Segment 8

Return to Bazaar
Go to tower, get Birdsong Nectar (pass all treasure)
Return to Santeem, give nectar to King
Return to Bazaar
Go to shrine
Go to Endor
Talk to King
Sell everything, buy Iron Claw for Alena, max out Medical Herbs for Alena, rest, save

Segment 9

Kill a Metal Slime, save

Segment 10

Kill a Metal Slime, save

Segment 11

Kill a Metal Slime, save

Segment 12

Kill a Metal Slime, rest, save (level 13)

Segment 13

Win tournament (need a critical against Sampson)
Leave Endor
Return to Santeem, go to second floor, take one step, return to Santeem

Total Chapter 2 – 1 hour 15 minutes

Chapter 3

Segment 14

Get sold a Sword of Malice on the first day, sell it, get > 300 gold, rest
Buy four Wings, save

Segment 15

Buy Thorn Whip
Get sold a Sword of Malice on the fourth day, leave early, save

Segment 16

Go to Bonmalmo, get Broad Sword drop
Talk to Reed
Go to jail, give Wings to free Tom
Use Wings back to Lakanaba
Get Tov, save

Segment 17

Go to Foxville, get Broad Sword drop
Talk to coyote, get Full Plate Armor
Use Wings to Bonmalmo, talk to King, sell Full Plate Armor for 4000+ gold
Use Wings back to Lakanaba
Return Tov
Sell stuff, buy Sword of Malice, rest, save

Segment 18

Walk to Bonmalmo, get Broad Sword drop, go in at night
Get Letter from Reed
Walk to Endor, rest to get daytime
Buy two Wings
Give Letter to Mia, get Scroll
Use Wings to go to Bonmalmo
Give Scroll to King Bonmalmo
Use Wings to go to Endor
Talk to the King
Rest, Hire Strom and Laurent, save

Segment 19

Go to get Silver Statuette (level 9), get Wings in cave
(need two Broad Sword drops in this part)
Sell everything, buy shop, save

Segment 20

Use whatever’s available to start money process
Need 43,400 for 7 Broad Swords, 7 Half Plates, and 6 SOM
Buy 7 Half Plates @ Endor
Talk to King
Give up armor
Buy two Wings
Use Wings to go to Bonmalmo, buy 7 Broad Swords
Use Wings, back to Endor
Give up swords, get 60K
Buy three Wings
Use Wings, go to Lakanaba
Buy 6 Swords of Malice
Use Wings, go to Endor
Go to cave, give 60K to old man
Exit and re-enter cave, talk to old man
Use Wings, go to Endor
Go in and out of casino
Talk to Nela
Go to tunnel

Chapter 4

Segment 21

Get Medical Herb in jar, 80 gold on floor, Strength Seed in second drawer
Go to Kievs
Fight to save up money for Chain Sickle
Go back to Monbaraba, save

Segment 22

Go get Orin (left fork) and Sphere of Silence
Go to Haville, fight for experience and equipment, rest, save (get Outside?)

Segment 23

Go to Aktemto, get Gunpowder Jar
Back to Haville, spend all money (Venomous Dagger)

Segment 24

Go to Keeleon, beat Balzack (Sphere of Silence/Sap, then attack and keep healed)
Lose to Keeleon (can’t win)
Go to Haville, get on ship
Go down, talk to girl in top room only
Talk to the captain

Thoughts on this so far?

I have been considering this game for a while myself. I even had a (very rough) estimate of a possible segment list and guesses on timing for Chapters 1 and 2, although it could certainly be tightened up quite a bit. Here's my notes:

Chapter 1

Segment 1

Get Medical Herb in fourth drawer
Leave via bottom of town
Go to cave
Get 40 gold in cave
Buy 4 Medical Herbs, Wooden Hat
Walk around, go to Izmit at night
Talk to Alex
Go back to Burland, talk to Flora
Walk to Izmit
Take Flora to Alex, save

Segment 2

Walk to hidden playground
Go down, down, down to 2nd floor
Go right, get Healie
Get 600 gold, Flying Shoes
Leave, get Medical Herb, Agility Seed on way out
Sell Copper Sword, Leather Armor, buy Half Plate Armor @ Izmit, save

Segment 3

Use Flying Shoes
Get Wings on third floor
Get Scale Shield on the second floor
Get Sword of Malice on first floor
Heal up, face boss, save one Herb for battle
Attack Saro’s Shadow until dead, then attack Eye (probably lose if Healie dies quickly)
Go outside, use Shoes, jump off, walk to Izmit
Use Wings, return to Burland

Total Chapter 1 – 30 minutes

Chapter 2

Segment 4

Talk to Brey, left soldier, Cristo
Find Fairy Water and Feather Hat in castle (both second drawer)
Fight battles, walk to Surene, buy Thorn Whip for Cristo, give Club to Alena
Get to level 4, rest, save

Segment 5

Walk to Tempe, fight boss (Cristo using Upper and Brey using Icebolt/Sap)
Buy Boomerang for Cristo, move Thorn Whip to Alena
Walk to Frenor, watch event at inn, go back and rest, save

Segment 6

Go to Bazaar, get Strength Seed in left pot, talk to the soldier, buy 5 Wings
Fight to level up to 7/8 to get Outside, rest when needed
Return to Frenor, but Chain Mail for Cristo, move Wayfarer’s to Brey, rest, save

Segment 7

Go to cave, get Golden Bracelet (pass all treasure), Outside
Walk around until night, go to Frenor, get Thief Key @ night, rest, save

Segment 8

Return to Bazaar
Go to tower, get Birdsong Nectar (pass all treasure)
Return to Santeem, give nectar to King
Return to Bazaar
Go to shrine
Go to Endor
Talk to King
Sell everything, buy Iron Claw for Alena, max out Medical Herbs for Alena, rest, save

Segment 9

Kill a Metal Slime, save

Segment 10

Kill a Metal Slime, save

Segment 11

Kill a Metal Slime, save

Segment 12

Kill a Metal Slime, rest, save (level 13)

Segment 13

Win tournament (need a critical against Sampson)
Leave Endor
Return to Santeem, go to second floor, take one step, return to Santeem

Total Chapter 2 – 1 hour 15 minutes

Chapter 3

Segment 14

Get sold a Sword of Malice on the first day, sell it, get > 300 gold, rest
Buy four Wings, save

Segment 15

Buy Thorn Whip
Get sold a Sword of Malice on the fourth day, leave early, save

Segment 16

Go to Bonmalmo, get Broad Sword drop
Talk to Reed
Go to jail, give Wings to free Tom
Use Wings back to Lakanaba
Get Tov, save

Segment 17

Go to Foxville, get Broad Sword drop
Talk to coyote, get Full Plate Armor
Use Wings to Bonmalmo, talk to King, sell Full Plate Armor for 4000+ gold
Use Wings back to Lakanaba
Return Tov
Sell stuff, buy Sword of Malice, rest, save

Segment 18

Walk to Bonmalmo, get Broad Sword drop, go in at night
Get Letter from Reed
Walk to Endor, rest to get daytime
Buy two Wings
Give Letter to Mia, get Scroll
Use Wings to go to Bonmalmo
Give Scroll to King Bonmalmo
Use Wings to go to Endor
Talk to the King
Rest, Hire Strom and Laurent, save

Segment 19

Go to get Silver Statuette (level 9), get Wings in cave
(need two Broad Sword drops in this part)
Sell everything, buy shop, save

Segment 20

Use whatever’s available to start money process
Need 43,400 for 7 Broad Swords, 7 Half Plates, and 6 SOM
Buy 7 Half Plates @ Endor
Talk to King
Give up armor
Buy two Wings
Use Wings to go to Bonmalmo, buy 7 Broad Swords
Use Wings, back to Endor
Give up swords, get 60K
Buy three Wings
Use Wings, go to Lakanaba
Buy 6 Swords of Malice
Use Wings, go to Endor
Go to cave, give 60K to old man
Exit and re-enter cave, talk to old man
Use Wings, go to Endor
Go in and out of casino
Talk to Nela
Go to tunnel

Chapter 4

Segment 21

Get Medical Herb in jar, 80 gold on floor, Strength Seed in second drawer
Go to Kievs
Fight to save up money for Chain Sickle
Go back to Monbaraba, save

Segment 22

Go get Orin (left fork) and Sphere of Silence
Go to Haville, fight for experience and equipment, rest, save (get Outside?)

Segment 23

Go to Aktemto, get Gunpowder Jar
Back to Haville, spend all money (Venomous Dagger)

Segment 24

Go to Keeleon, beat Balzack (Sphere of Silence/Sap, then attack and keep healed)
Lose to Keeleon (can’t win)
Go to Haville, get on ship
Go down, talk to girl in top room only
Talk to the captain

Thoughts on this so far?

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-24 12:54:33 am

Highly Evolved

Segment 1:

Why the Wooden Hat? Would seem 2 wings are better here.

Segment 2:

Is Healie really necessary in a segmented run? Maybe it is. Plus, would it end up faster with Healie anyway, since I'm sure medical herb use would likely be necessary against Saro's Shadow.

Also, seeds really aren't that useful unless you're going to sell them, and at the point you get Ragnar in Ch. 5, his equipment really isn't necessary. If fact, I don't think he should be used at all in Ch. 5, save being the patsy in jail.

Chapter 2:

I've never been good at Chapter 2, so most of the stuff here I'd have to test myself.

First thought is what level is necessary to get past Tempe? Second though is could the Feather Hat be sold for offensive purposes? Offense is more important than defense in speed runs.

Faster to walk into and out of Cave S of Frenor rather than level to get Outside?

What's the encounter rate for metal slimes? And is zone just between the shrine and Endor?

I'm not going to comment at all on Ch. 3 since it's such a unique chapter that testing will have to be done for some time.

Ch. 4

What's the minimum level to beat Keeleon. Also Ch. 4 has probably the most jarring enemy power increase in Kievs, so I can understand some leveling to survive the cave. I do believe getting high enough to get outside before Akemto is necessary.

Segment 1:

Why the Wooden Hat? Would seem 2 wings are better here.

Segment 2:

Is Healie really necessary in a segmented run?  Maybe it is.  Plus, would it end up faster with Healie anyway, since I'm sure medical herb use would likely be necessary against Saro's Shadow.

Also, seeds really aren't that useful unless you're going to sell them, and at the point you get Ragnar in Ch. 5, his equipment really isn't necessary.  If fact, I don't think he should be used at all in Ch. 5, save being the patsy in jail.

Chapter 2:

I've never been good at Chapter 2, so most of the stuff here I'd have to test myself.

First thought is what level is necessary to get past Tempe?  Second though is could the Feather Hat be sold for offensive purposes?  Offense is more important than defense in speed runs.

Faster to walk into and out of Cave S of Frenor rather than level to get Outside?

What's the encounter rate for metal slimes?  And is zone just between the shrine and Endor?

I'm not going to comment at all on Ch. 3 since it's such a unique chapter that testing will have to be done for some time.

Ch. 4

What's the minimum level to beat Keeleon.  Also Ch. 4 has probably the most jarring enemy power increase in Kievs, so I can understand some leveling to survive the cave.  I do believe getting high enough to get outside before Akemto is necessary.

Breakdown

2010-02-24 05:17:39 am

Haters gonna hate

First off, I want to say I'm very happy that people interested in running this have come out of the woodwork. DW4 is probably my favorite 8-bit RPG (only other one close in the running is Phantasy Star) and while the game is definitely a massive undertaking I've always wanted to see a good run put together for it.

As far as helping with planning, it's been a while for me, but I do have a couple things to add.

First off, while planning the rest of chapter 3 is complicated, I think it's safe to say that whatever plans do get made to get through it, it should definitely end with a full inventory of Swords of Malice for a nice cash boost in Chapter 5.

As for party in chapter 5, Alena definitely should be a slam dunk, and I think the bulk of strength seeds acquired should go to her. Her damage output with stilleto earrings is nuts, and she has the best critical chance in the game (I believe the formula for her is level*2/255 as opposed to 5/255 for everybody else). Next, especially since this'll be segmented, I think Taloon should get a slot. He's pretty horribly random, but he's got the next best critical chance since it is one of his random effects, he can stop enemy spells, and the army of merchants effect is pretty awesome too, especially if you give him a sword of miracles (lots of damage, plus every hit will heal him). The third is where it gets hazy, especially since there isn't great full party leveling until the king metals at Gottsiede (sp?). I can see arguments for Brey (Bikill), Mara (Blazemost, and if leveled enough Bedragon) and Ragnar (tank). I'd personally lean Ragnar since he's the easiest and most reliable to use. All he needs is a good weapon, the rest need levels and some luck with AI (getting Brey to cast Bikill isn't easy, I think the best the best hope is to use the "Try Out" AI choice). For the end game you could also consider Doran given you'll probably be at lower levels. I think when the guests join their levels are static, but I'm not sure.

If you're looking for resources, I'd suggest gamefaqs. Haven't perused their FAQs for this lately, but I do remember the message board for this one being one of the better ones on the site. Even if it showing activity, just make a thread, I'm sure most of the regulars still pop in to check on it, and they're a knowledgeable bunch.

First off, I want to say I'm very happy that people interested in running this have come out of the woodwork.  DW4 is probably my favorite 8-bit RPG (only other one close in the running is Phantasy Star) and while the game is definitely a massive undertaking I've always wanted to see a good run put together for it.

As far as helping with planning, it's been a while for me, but I do have a couple things to add.

First off, while planning the rest of chapter 3 is complicated, I think it's safe to say that whatever plans do get made to get through it, it should definitely end with a full inventory of Swords of Malice for a nice cash boost in Chapter 5.

As for party in chapter 5, Alena definitely should be a slam dunk, and I think the bulk of strength seeds acquired should go to her.  Her damage output with stilleto earrings is nuts, and she has the best critical chance in the game (I believe the formula for her is level*2/255 as opposed to 5/255 for everybody else).  Next, especially since this'll be segmented, I think Taloon should get a slot.  He's pretty horribly random, but he's got the next best critical chance since it is one of his random effects, he can stop enemy spells, and the army of merchants effect is pretty awesome too, especially if you give him a sword of miracles (lots of damage, plus every hit will heal him).  The third is where it gets hazy, especially since there isn't great full party leveling until the king metals at Gottsiede (sp?).  I can see arguments for Brey (Bikill), Mara (Blazemost, and if leveled enough Bedragon) and Ragnar (tank).  I'd personally lean Ragnar since he's the easiest and most reliable to use.  All he needs is a good weapon, the rest need levels and some luck with AI (getting Brey to cast Bikill isn't easy, I think the best the best hope is to use the "Try Out" AI choice).  For the end game you could also consider Doran given you'll probably be at lower levels.  I [i]think[/i] when the guests join their levels are static, but I'm not sure.

If you're looking for resources, I'd suggest gamefaqs.  Haven't perused their FAQs for this lately, but I do remember the message board for this one being one of the better ones on the site.  Even if it showing activity, just make a thread, I'm sure most of the regulars still pop in to check on it, and they're a knowledgeable bunch.

chessjerk

2010-02-24 06:20:47 am

Quote from Darkwing Duck:

Segment 1:

Why the Wooden Hat? Would seem 2 wings are better here.

Segment 2:

Is Healie really necessary in a segmented run? Maybe it is. Plus, would it end up faster with Healie anyway, since I'm sure medical herb use would likely be necessary against Saro's Shadow.

Also, seeds really aren't that useful unless you're going to sell them, and at the point you get Ragnar in Ch. 5, his equipment really isn't necessary. If fact, I don't think he should be used at all in Ch. 5, save being the patsy in jail.

Chapter 2:

I've never been good at Chapter 2, so most of the stuff here I'd have to test myself.

First thought is what level is necessary to get past Tempe? Second though is could the Feather Hat be sold for offensive purposes? Offense is more important than defense in speed runs.

Faster to walk into and out of Cave S of Frenor rather than level to get Outside?

What's the encounter rate for metal slimes? And is zone just between the shrine and Endor?

Ch. 4

What's the minimum level to beat Keeleon. Also Ch. 4 has probably the most jarring enemy power increase in Kievs, so I can understand some leveling to survive the cave. I do believe getting high enough to get outside before Akemto is necessary.

Segment 1

I bought the Wooden Hat for survival in the cave to get Healie and the Flying Shoes. It was awful tough to get through the cave at level 2 with the initial equipment. Maybe I just got unlucky on the random battles.

Segment 2

To beat Saro's Shadow at level 6 or so, Healie would have to be required, unless you get insanely lucky and gets lots of criticals against him.

As for the seed, I think I picked it up to sell it to make sure I could afford the Half Plate Armor before going to the tower.

Chapter 2

I've never been able to get past Tempe lower than level 4. Cristo with Upper seems necessary for survival, since the enemies just hit too hard.

Good luck surviving the 4 Orc battles in the cave without Outside. Sad

It could be done, I suppose.

I've never encountered Metal Slimes anywhere except near Endor.

Chapter 4

Luckily, after getting Orin, leveling goes really quickly, as most of the enemies give lots of experience.

[quote="Darkwing Duck"]
Segment 1:

Why the Wooden Hat? Would seem 2 wings are better here.

Segment 2:

Is Healie really necessary in a segmented run?  Maybe it is.  Plus, would it end up faster with Healie anyway, since I'm sure medical herb use would likely be necessary against Saro's Shadow.

Also, seeds really aren't that useful unless you're going to sell them, and at the point you get Ragnar in Ch. 5, his equipment really isn't necessary.  If fact, I don't think he should be used at all in Ch. 5, save being the patsy in jail.

Chapter 2:

I've never been good at Chapter 2, so most of the stuff here I'd have to test myself.

First thought is what level is necessary to get past Tempe?  Second though is could the Feather Hat be sold for offensive purposes?  Offense is more important than defense in speed runs.

Faster to walk into and out of Cave S of Frenor rather than level to get Outside?

What's the encounter rate for metal slimes?  And is zone just between the shrine and Endor?

Ch. 4

What's the minimum level to beat Keeleon.  Also Ch. 4 has probably the most jarring enemy power increase in Kievs, so I can understand some leveling to survive the cave.  I do believe getting high enough to get outside before Akemto is necessary.
[/quote]

Segment 1

I bought the Wooden Hat for survival in the cave to get Healie and the Flying Shoes. It was awful tough to get through the cave at level 2 with the initial equipment. Maybe I just got unlucky on the random battles.

Segment 2

To beat Saro's Shadow at level 6 or so, Healie would have to be required, unless you get insanely lucky and gets lots of criticals against him.

As for the seed, I think I picked it up to sell it to make sure I could afford the Half Plate Armor before going to the tower.

Chapter 2

I've never been able to get past Tempe lower than level 4. Cristo with Upper seems necessary for survival, since the enemies just hit too hard.

Good luck surviving the 4 Orc battles in the cave without Outside. :( It could be done, I suppose.

I've never encountered Metal Slimes anywhere except near Endor.

Chapter 4

Luckily, after getting Orin, leveling goes really quickly, as most of the enemies give lots of experience.

rekenner

Edit history:

rekenner: 2010-02-24 11:38:38 am

2010-02-24 11:13:09 am

Wow. That's far too many segments, imo. You're being too cautious. Which, saves sanity, but.... Fuck that, this is SDA! >_>
I was thinking 2 for Ragnar (Start through end of Well; To EoC). And, yeah, Healie is, I think, necessary. I was considering that on my bus ride to campus. He makes combat take more time and takes time to get, but I think you'd have to take time leveling and more time healing, so I think he net saves time. I was going to test that on an emulator.
I was figuring the Metal Slime hunting for Alena would work best, but I don't think it's a good idea to do that many of them. I think just getting lucky in the arena, though taking a lot more attempts, is very doable.
At the beginning of Ch.4, sell the Dancer's Costume and pick up a Leather Dress for Mara. It gains you money and gains her defense. Further, getting to Orin at level 2 isn't impossible. I've done it in normal runs. It's harsh, but necessary for this run. I decided to pick up where I left off in the DS version (though, it is slightly different, so, I'm doing this for fun, mostly.) and did it just 10 minutes ago. He lets you get through fights so much faster and go north up to the upper part of the continent safely.

As for final party -- I think that, without AI control, Hero, Ragnar, Alena, Cristo would be best. Ragnar still hits hard, even if he hits slow. And he's a massive HP sink. Talloon, while competant, just isn't consistent. Same for the casters, really. In the TAS, Talloon could be manipulated, but we can't do that here.

... Further: Oo. Using Doran in the final party? Huuuh. You know, that's not a bad idea. That should be considered. Heck, replacing Ragnar with various people might be worth it. Depends on how fast leveling in the Royal Crypt can be. (I honestly think that's better, as you can fight like 6 metal slimes in one fight. What's the most EXP you can get from a King Metal including fight?)

Wow. That's far too many segments, imo. You're being too cautious. Which, saves sanity, but.... Fuck that, this is SDA! >_>
I was thinking 2 for Ragnar (Start through end of Well; To EoC). And, yeah, Healie is, I think, necessary. I was considering that on my bus ride to campus. He makes combat take more time and takes time to get, but I think you'd have to take time leveling and more time healing, so I think he net saves time. I was going to test that on an emulator.
I was figuring the Metal Slime hunting for Alena would work best, but I don't think it's a good idea to do that many of them. I think just getting lucky in the arena, though taking a lot more attempts, is very doable.
At the beginning of Ch.4, sell the Dancer's Costume and pick up a Leather Dress for Mara. It gains you money and gains her defense. Further, getting to Orin at level 2 isn't impossible. I've done it in normal runs. It's harsh, but necessary for this run. I decided to pick up where I left off in the DS version (though, it is slightly different, so, I'm doing this for fun, mostly.) and did it just 10 minutes ago. He lets you get through fights so much faster and go north up to the upper part of the continent safely.

As for final party -- I think that, without AI control, Hero, Ragnar, Alena, Cristo would be best. Ragnar still hits hard, even if he hits slow. And he's a massive HP sink. Talloon, while competant, just isn't consistent. Same for the casters, really. In the TAS, Talloon could be manipulated, but we can't do that here.

... Further: Oo. Using Doran in the final party? Huuuh. You know, that's not a bad idea. That should be considered. Heck, replacing Ragnar with various people might be worth it. Depends on how fast leveling in the Royal Crypt can be. (I honestly think that's better, as you can fight like 6 metal slimes in one fight. What's the most EXP you can get from a King Metal including fight?)

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-24 12:47:27 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Breakdown:

As for party in chapter 5, Alena definitely should be a slam dunk, and I think the bulk of strength seeds acquired should go to her. Her damage output with stilleto earrings is nuts, and she has the best critical chance in the game (I believe the formula for her is level*2/255 as opposed to 5/255 for everybody else). Next, especially since this'll be segmented, I think Taloon should get a slot. He's pretty horribly random, but he's got the next best critical chance since it is one of his random effects, he can stop enemy spells, and the army of merchants effect is pretty awesome too, especially if you give him a sword of miracles (lots of damage, plus every hit will heal him). The third is where it gets hazy, especially since there isn't great full party leveling until the king metals at Gottsiede (sp?). I can see arguments for Brey (Bikill), Mara (Blazemost, and if leveled enough Bedragon) and Ragnar (tank). I'd personally lean Ragnar since he's the easiest and most reliable to use. All he needs is a good weapon, the rest need levels and some luck with AI (getting Brey to cast Bikill isn't easy, I think the best the best hope is to use the "Try Out" AI choice). For the end game you could also consider Doran given you'll probably be at lower levels. I think when the guests join their levels are static, but I'm not sure.

Royal Crypt says hi.

The DW IV board on Gamefaqs has been fairly light the last few months. A year or so go, the board was much more active. I haven't seen any discussion on the mechanics of DW IV in my time there, save for the AI script in Ch. 5, so there's less information there that's easy to access like there is for DW III and the original.

Party in Ch. 5 is indeed determined on the cave you're going to. I imagine a spell caster should be in the fourth slot. However, now that I think about it, maybe running should be the preferred option in most caves.

[quote="Breakdown"]

As for party in chapter 5, Alena definitely should be a slam dunk, and I think the bulk of strength seeds acquired should go to her.  Her damage output with stilleto earrings is nuts, and she has the best critical chance in the game (I believe the formula for her is level*2/255 as opposed to 5/255 for everybody else).  Next, especially since this'll be segmented, I think Taloon should get a slot.  He's pretty horribly random, but he's got the next best critical chance since it is one of his random effects, he can stop enemy spells, and the army of merchants effect is pretty awesome too, especially if you give him a sword of miracles (lots of damage, plus every hit will heal him).  The third is where it gets hazy, especially since [b]there isn't great full party leveling until the king metals at Gottsiede (sp?)[/b].  I can see arguments for Brey (Bikill), Mara (Blazemost, and if leveled enough Bedragon) and Ragnar (tank).  I'd personally lean Ragnar since he's the easiest and most reliable to use.  All he needs is a good weapon, the rest need levels and some luck with AI (getting Brey to cast Bikill isn't easy, I think the best the best hope is to use the "Try Out" AI choice).  For the end game you could also consider Doran given you'll probably be at lower levels.  I [i]think[/i] when the guests join their levels are static, but I'm not sure.

[/quote]

Royal Crypt says hi.

The DW IV board on Gamefaqs has been fairly light the last few months.  A year or so go, the board was much more active.  I haven't seen any discussion on the mechanics of DW IV in my time there, save for the AI script in Ch. 5, so there's less information there that's easy to access like there is for DW III and the original.

Party in Ch. 5 is indeed determined on the cave you're going to.  I imagine a spell caster should be in the fourth slot.  However, now that I think about it, maybe running should be the preferred option in most caves.

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-24 12:49:34 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from rekenner:

At the beginning of Ch.4, sell the Dancer's Costume and pick up a Leather Dress for Mara. It gains you money and gains her defense. Further, getting to Orin at level 2 isn't impossible. I've done it in normal runs. It's harsh, but necessary for this run. I decided to pick up where I left off in the DS version (though, it is slightly different, so, I'm doing this for fun, mostly.) and did it just 10 minutes ago. He lets you get through fights so much faster and go north up to the upper part of the continent safely.

DO NOT take anything gained from a remade version of this game as usable in the NES run. Remakes are made incredibly easier.

rekenner

2010-02-24 02:30:56 pm

iirc, the remake has a few tweaked things, but it's not easier in any significant ways.
But, yeah, I'm not.
But I have done the cave in Ch.4 with level 2 Nara and Mara.

ZenicReverie

2010-02-24 02:58:39 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from rekenner:

Wow. That's far too many segments, imo. You're being too cautious. Which, saves sanity, but.... Fuck that, this is SDA! >_>

Uhh, and SDA says make as many segments as you need for the lowest possible time.

rekenner

Edit history:

rekenner: 2010-02-24 04:54:59 pm

2010-02-24 04:49:20 pm

Yeah, but segment increases pretty much only cause more time, in this case.
Like, going and saving after a small amount of work, to be cautious, when going and saving takes you out of your way. So, less segments, in this case, would be faster.

ZenicReverie

2010-02-24 06:38:19 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from rekenner:

Yeah, but segment increases pretty much only cause more time, in this case.
Like, going and saving after a small amount of work, to be cautious, when going and saving takes you out of your way. So, less segments, in this case, would be faster.

Well, if Garland can get steal two Right Arms in one segment, then two SoM should be done if possible. Does anyone actually know if it is possible? I don't remember this game at all though, so I don't know what I'm talking about. The possibility of getting two in a row in one segment vs splitting it into two segments should be weighed though. I mean if it isn't possible to get them back to back like that, then maybe segmenting would be faster?

rekenner

2010-02-25 12:25:27 am

Oh, I'm not even talking about ch. 3, at the moment. That's going to be a morass of optimization that gets fucked by really lucky drops, causing a run with a glaring flaw to be the fastest run. I'll put money on it.

scaryice

2010-02-25 12:52:42 am

Wow, there could be some epic competition here. Too bad there isn't a way to transfer save files from cart to cart so you could work on it together.

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-25 12:56:46 am

Highly Evolved

I'm surprised I got very little activity in the DW III thread compared with how this one has started. I was very surprised to see a Dragon Warrior IV thread without me creating it. I thought DW III was the vastly more popular game.

ShinerCCC

2010-02-25 03:05:16 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

No way man, DW4 is probably the most loved of the whole series.

Anyone know how long it would take to get enough coins for a Metal Babble Shield at the casino in Chapter 2? With luck manipulation (DW4 has a great RNG) I wonder if you could pile those on for use in Chapter 5...there's also the coins in the tunnel if you need those.

Ragnar can win Chapter 1 at around level 6 IIRC. That takes a lot of luck though. For the Saro's Shadow fight, you might as well kill the Eyeball first just so you don't have to sit through his attacks in the battle text prompt.

Final party should probably avoid spellcasters because they're flaky and often don't do what they should be doing. I've had good experiences with Cristo though, he heals frequently, casts Beat on random mobs and frequently kills them, and if he's not doing that then he can swing with a sword for good damage.

rekenner

2010-02-25 11:25:17 am

Well, due to the wagon, everyone gets EXP, so I might do Taloon as 4th person when not in caves, depending on comparing Taloon and Cristo's stats. I'll have to see on that one.

And -- 3 does tend to be the most popular one, from what I've seen, and is usually considered the best of the NES games. ... However, IMO, 4 is easily the best. I'm glad that there's this much popularity on it, though.

As for casino, I don't know if you'd have the money to do it then, whereas you should easily have it at the beginning of ch. 5. My usual path through the beginning of ch.5 is to hit up the cave that Taloon gets the statuette in, as I leave a bunch of treasure in there for the Hero. Given that you *have to* level up a bit before the Cave of Betrayal. I think it'd be a decent thing to do, despite it taking more time, compared to just wandering around Endor. The monsters are stronger and you can get more money.
After that, I'd save to do a Casino run. I wonder if monster fights or poker are faster, given the doubling up in poker. I'd aim for enough coins for one 1 shield (I'm never using more than one person that can use it, in all likelihood), and probably 4 meteorite armbands, so I attack before things in combat. So, that's a fuckton of coins needed. If I do poker, I'll go for the 100k jackpot and call it good.

Also: I wonder how many Medals should be collected. I think the MBHelm is pointless, but a Sword of Miracles and Hat of Happiness are probably worth getting. Those 2 would be 10 medals. 16 if you wanted a second Sword of Miracles, but I'm not sure how useful that'd be.

Well, due to the wagon, everyone gets EXP, so I might do Taloon as 4th person when not in caves, depending on comparing Taloon and Cristo's stats. I'll have to see on that one.

And -- 3 does tend to be the most popular one, from what I've seen, and is usually considered the best of the NES games. ... However, IMO, 4 is easily the best. I'm glad that there's this much popularity on it, though.

As for casino, I don't know if you'd have the money to do it then, whereas you should easily have it at the beginning of ch. 5. My usual path through the beginning of ch.5 is to hit up the cave that Taloon gets the statuette in, as I leave a bunch of treasure in there for the Hero. Given that you *have to* level up a bit before the Cave of Betrayal. I think it'd be a decent thing to do, despite it taking more time, compared to just wandering around Endor. The monsters are stronger and you can get more money.
After that, I'd save to do a Casino run. I wonder if monster fights or poker are faster, given the doubling up in poker. I'd aim for enough coins for one 1 shield (I'm never using more than one person that can use it, in all likelihood), and probably 4 meteorite armbands, so I attack before things in combat. So, that's a fuckton of coins needed. If I do poker, I'll go for the 100k jackpot and call it good.

Also: I wonder how many Medals should be collected. I think the MBHelm is pointless, but a Sword of Miracles and Hat of Happiness are probably worth getting. Those 2 would be 10 medals. 16 if you wanted a second Sword of Miracles, but I'm not sure how useful that'd be.

Darkwing Duck

2010-02-25 04:47:04 pm

Highly Evolved

The casino is another thing to test out. Something that's been on my mind.