Dragon Warrior 4 (At the moment, planning)

2010-06-01 05:56:40 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Congratulations chessjerk! I guess I'll have to aim for 7.5 hours single segment?

Darkwing Duck is correct, timing stops when you lose control of the character. In EmptyEye's Magic of Scharheharhshdhzade run, the time spent scrolling through the epilogue dialogue isn't counted, and same with my Faxanadu run.

chessjerk

2010-06-01 09:26:58 pm

I wonder if I should I redo the last segment. It looks kinda dumb that I wasted 20 seconds I didn't have to.

ShinerCCC

2010-06-03 08:12:00 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

I really wouldn't worry about it. I think a 20 second blooper makes for a good ending to a 380 minute run. If an improvement is derived then the next runner can make that improvement as well =P

Darkwing Duck

2010-06-03 12:37:44 pm

Highly Evolved

I had that in Segment 11 in my DW III run.

chessjerk

Edit history:

chessjerk: 2011-01-29 05:31:14 am

chessjerk: 2011-01-15 04:56:44 pm

chessjerk: 2010-10-27 07:26:17 pm

chessjerk: 2010-10-27 07:21:40 pm

chessjerk: 2010-09-29 09:30:37 pm

chessjerk: 2010-09-29 09:27:17 pm

2010-08-01 07:31:14 pm

WARNING! EXTREMELY LONG POST AHEAD! Edit: Not so long any more. Smiley

First off, please note that I have no intention of re-doing this run currently, since I am somewhat burned out on this game. This is merely a plan for the future.

Secondly, I hope that me posting a (theoretical) faster route than the accepted run before said run is even posted on the site will not deter anyone from watching the run when it is posted, as I am quite proud of what I have accomplished.

Anyway, I've been mulling over various things about the accepted run (thanks to the verifiers for that!) and have used their ideas and some of my own to revamp my route, which I've posted below, along with some comments about the differences between this route and the recorded run, and target times for each segment (with comparable times to the recorded run).

I should point out that these time targets are probably not achievable in some cases due to high improbability of a certain series of events happening, but I might as well shoot for the moon, no?

Totaling up the target times gives a grand total of 5 hours 39 minutes, which would be about 46 minutes faster than the recorded run. Crazy? Definitely.

As always, comments are appreciated.

EDIT: Updated 9/29/10

EDIT 2: Updated 10/27/10 (Chapter 1 re-done!)

EDIT 3: Updated 1/15/11 (different ideas posted, see separate post for major changes)

EDIT 4: Deleted the old out-of-date path

WARNING! EXTREMELY LONG POST AHEAD! Edit: Not so long any more. :)

First off, please note that I have no intention of re-doing this run currently, since I am somewhat burned out on this game. This is merely a plan for the future.

Secondly, I hope that me posting a (theoretical) faster route than the accepted run before said run is even posted on the site will not deter anyone from watching the run when it is posted, as I am quite proud of what I have accomplished.

Anyway, I've been mulling over various things about the accepted run (thanks to the verifiers for that!) and have used their ideas and some of my own to revamp my route, which I've posted below, along with some comments about the differences between this route and the recorded run, and target times for each segment (with comparable times to the recorded run).

I should point out that these time targets are probably not achievable in some cases due to high improbability of a certain series of events happening, but I might as well shoot for the moon, no?

Totaling up the target times gives a grand total of 5 hours 39 minutes, which would be about 46 minutes faster than the recorded run. Crazy? Definitely.

As always, comments are appreciated.

EDIT: Updated 9/29/10

EDIT 2: Updated 10/27/10 (Chapter 1 re-done!)

EDIT 3: Updated 1/15/11 (different ideas posted, see separate post for major changes)

EDIT 4: Deleted the old out-of-date path

Darkwing Duck

2010-08-01 07:59:26 pm

Highly Evolved

Quick note about improving the time. The Dragon Warrior III run beat my initial target by forty minutes and my last practice run time by twenty two minutes, so don't think of it as crazy. Sub 5 (15+ minute improvement) is definitely in the cards, so forty five minutes isn't anywhere near crazy.

ShinerCCC

2010-08-02 03:33:37 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Where exactly do you use the Sword of Miracles for the Hero?

1. I would suggest using it on Keeleon because by the time you get around to facing him he's incredibly weaksauce and you have awesome equipment. If he's awake he can't harm you much so your guys hopefully won't stop to heal. Just use Sword of Miracles for extra damage.
2. Esturk, since his attack pattern while awake is certainly easier to deal with than while he's asleep. Did you ever try using Ironize until he wakes up?

I think those are the only two places you use it...is it really worth it going out of your way for 6 medals then? For Esturk you could wave around a Dragon Killer (if you can afford it), or an old Sword of Malice, or swap for Cristo's Sword of Miracles and give him something else, like the Magma Staff, it has decent attack power. He's supposed to be healing and casting Increase anyway.

Another thing I would consider doing (I'd do it in a single segment run for sure) is use Panon for the Balzack+ fight for double Sword of Lethargy usage, then go cash him in for Zenithian Helmet, the defense points can't be all that useful, especially if you want to keep him under anyway.

Hopefully someone can come up with a good way to do Chapter 2 in SS...Chapter 3 is no big deal to me. Chapter 4 would require some careful thought if I want to get Orin early.

Where exactly do you use the Sword of Miracles for the Hero?

1. I would suggest using it on Keeleon because by the time you get around to facing him he's incredibly weaksauce and you have awesome equipment. If he's awake he can't harm you much so your guys hopefully won't stop to heal. Just use Sword of Miracles for extra damage.
2. Esturk, since his attack pattern while awake is certainly easier to deal with than while he's asleep. Did you ever try using Ironize until he wakes up?

I think those are the only two places you use it...is it really worth it going out of your way for 6 medals then? For Esturk you could wave around a Dragon Killer (if you can afford it), or an old Sword of Malice, or swap for Cristo's Sword of Miracles and give him something else, like the Magma Staff, it has decent attack power. He's supposed to be healing and casting Increase anyway.

Another thing I would consider doing (I'd do it in a single segment run for sure) is use Panon for the Balzack+ fight for double Sword of Lethargy usage, then go cash him in for Zenithian Helmet, the defense points can't be all that useful, especially if you want to keep him under anyway.

Hopefully someone can come up with a good way to do Chapter 2 in SS...Chapter 3 is no big deal to me. Chapter 4 would require some careful thought if I want to get Orin early.

chessjerk

2010-08-02 04:53:36 pm

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Where exactly do you use the Sword of Miracles for the Hero?

In my current run, she never uses it. It goes to Ragnar when he joins.

Quote:

1. I would suggest using it on Keeleon because by the time you get around to facing him he's incredibly weaksauce and you have awesome equipment. If he's awake he can't harm you much so your guys hopefully won't stop to heal. Just use Sword of Miracles for extra damage.

Keeleon's physical attack actually hits pretty hard, so I'd rather have two shots at getting him to sleep. In fact, once he is asleep, I can switch to the Sword of Miracles and hope that he stays asleep and kill him quicker.

Quote:

2. Esturk, since his attack pattern while awake is certainly easier to deal with than while he's asleep. Did you ever try using Ironize until he wakes up?

I did, with no success. Asleep or awake he can cause a lot of damage, so I'd rather not pass up free turns to hit him (such as the turn when he wakes up, which works even better if I can put him back to sleep and have him keep waking up, losing his turn every time).

Quote:

I think those are the only two places you use it...is it really worth it going out of your way for 6 medals then? For Esturk you could wave around a Dragon Killer (if you can afford it), or an old Sword of Malice, or swap for Cristo's Sword of Miracles and give him something else, like the Magma Staff, it has decent attack power. He's supposed to be healing and casting Increase anyway.

I'm confused by this, did you think CJ held the Sword of Miracles the entire game? CJ had the Sword of Lethargy the entire game while Ragnar had the Sword of Miracles. I definitely can't afford the Dragon Killer (15,000 gold is WAY too steep).

Quote:

Another thing I would consider doing (I'd do it in a single segment run for sure) is use Panon for the Balzack+ fight for double Sword of Lethargy usage, then go cash him in for Zenithian Helmet, the defense points can't be all that useful, especially if you want to keep him under anyway.

The problem there is a lack of damage output against Balzack+, and manipulating multiple critical hits while keeping him asleep would be very difficult to pull off. Better to have Ragnar and his higher damage, IMO. Also, Panon doesn't always attack, he can cast Sleep (bad) and he has the MP-lowering dance (also bad). At least Ragnar knows only one thing...ATTACK!

Quote:

Hopefully someone can come up with a good way to do Chapter 2 in SS...Chapter 3 is no big deal to me. Chapter 4 would require some careful thought if I want to get Orin early.

For Chapter 2, you could use my old original route that didn't depend on suiciding. Grind up to level 5 if you want a very easy Chameleon Humanoid fight, grind around Frenor until you can afford the Morning Star for Cristo, then grind around the Bazaar desert until Brey learns Snowstorm. After that, your only problem should be the tournament, which is still heavily luck-based no matter what your level is, unfortunately.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]
Where exactly do you use the Sword of Miracles for the Hero?[/quote]

In my current run, she never uses it. It goes to Ragnar when he joins.

[quote]1. I would suggest using it on Keeleon because by the time you get around to facing him he's incredibly weaksauce and you have awesome equipment. If he's awake he can't harm you much so your guys hopefully won't stop to heal. Just use Sword of Miracles for extra damage.[/quote]

Keeleon's physical attack actually hits pretty hard, so I'd rather have two shots at getting him to sleep. In fact, once he is asleep, I can switch to the Sword of Miracles and hope that he stays asleep and kill him quicker.

[quote]2. Esturk, since his attack pattern while awake is certainly easier to deal with than while he's asleep. Did you ever try using Ironize until he wakes up?[/quote]

I did, with no success. Asleep or awake he can cause a lot of damage, so I'd rather not pass up free turns to hit him (such as the turn when he wakes up, which works even better if I can put him back to sleep and have him keep waking up, losing his turn every time).

[quote]I think those are the only two places you use it...is it really worth it going out of your way for 6 medals then? For Esturk you could wave around a Dragon Killer (if you can afford it), or an old Sword of Malice, or swap for Cristo's Sword of Miracles and give him something else, like the Magma Staff, it has decent attack power. He's supposed to be healing and casting Increase anyway. [/quote]

I'm confused by this, did you think CJ held the Sword of Miracles the entire game? CJ had the Sword of Lethargy the entire game while Ragnar had the Sword of Miracles. I definitely can't afford the Dragon Killer (15,000 gold is WAY too steep).

[quote]Another thing I would consider doing (I'd do it in a single segment run for sure) is use Panon for the Balzack+ fight for double Sword of Lethargy usage, then go cash him in for Zenithian Helmet, the defense points can't be all that useful, especially if you want to keep him under anyway.[/quote]

The problem there is a lack of damage output against Balzack+, and manipulating multiple critical hits while keeping him asleep would be very difficult to pull off. Better to have Ragnar and his higher damage, IMO. Also, Panon doesn't always attack, he can cast Sleep (bad) and he has the MP-lowering dance (also bad). At least Ragnar knows only one thing...ATTACK!

[quote]Hopefully someone can come up with a good way to do Chapter 2 in SS...Chapter 3 is no big deal to me. Chapter 4 would require some careful thought if I want to get Orin early.
[/quote]

For Chapter 2, you could use my old original route that didn't depend on suiciding. Grind up to level 5 if you want a very easy Chameleon Humanoid fight, grind around Frenor until you can afford the Morning Star for Cristo, then grind around the Bazaar desert until Brey learns Snowstorm. After that, your only problem should be the tournament, which is still heavily luck-based no matter what your level is, unfortunately.

chessjerk

2010-09-29 09:29:48 pm

Update: New route posted above! I may begin taping again soon (I knew I couldn't stay away from this game for very long).

Darkwing Duck

2010-09-30 05:57:15 pm

Highly Evolved

heh, and I've been resisting getting back into III despite improvements I've come up with.

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-09-30 06:39:32 pm

2010-09-30 06:38:00 pm

Speaking of getting back into things, how do you guys feel about me starting up Dragon Warrior II again? I've found out some new info I didn't know before. In addition to Blotter pointing out a few route improvements, it seems that the Sword of Destruction has some special properties. Apparently, that sword has an increased critical hit rate as well as the chance to paralyze you, so I have to test whether it's worth using the glitch on it or not.

What do you think Darkwing? Anyone else who knows much about Dragon Warrior II?

chessjerk

2010-10-04 10:56:10 am

I know I would watch a DWII run, FQ. Sadly, I don't know much about any tricks or anything like that.

yoshmaster5

2010-10-04 02:35:31 pm

Also tenkiforecast

I'd definitely watch a DWII run. I only know about the GBC version of it though, I'd be no help in planning... :-/

Aside from that, I'm excited to see what the next route plan is for DWIV. ^^;

chessjerk

2010-10-04 07:50:31 pm

My current thoughts on a modified route are in my post from August 1st if you want to see it.

FionordeQuester

Edit history:

FionordeQuester: 2010-10-04 10:31:43 pm

2010-10-04 10:30:31 pm

Alright then. You've had your time to point and laugh at my computer virus induced humiliation, Dragon Warrior II. But now, it's OVER! You couldn't even keep me down back when I never even knew the Thunder Staff existed, so this time, there's no where for you to run! This is the end! HUUUUGGGHHHH!!

FionordeQuester

2010-10-05 06:44:17 pm

I have just now revived my old Dragon Warrior II thread.

chessjerk

2010-10-09 10:31:19 am

I have been re-trying Chapter 1, with little success.

In the meantime, I would like to ask a question for the verifiers: What method did you use for timing the segments? I just realized that my timing in the route I posted above comes out to 6:24, but Mike tells me the overall time is about 6:18. My timing is as follows:

For Chapter transitions, I start when the Chapter Title screen shows up. For other segments, I start when the shaman wishes me a safe journey.

For the end of segments, I stop when I tell the shaman I'm not going to continue my quest, or when I save at the end of a chapter.

Should my beginning of Chapter segments not start until I gain control of the character? Should timing end when savings begins (not when I refuse to continue)?

chessjerk

2010-10-16 10:11:52 pm

And the run is up! I hope everyone enjoys it!

Still no progress on the new run, Chapter 1 is being quite annoying...again.

getter77

2010-10-18 07:40:45 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Damn awesome run chessjerk, quite enjoyed my marathon of it yesterday!

chessjerk

Edit history:

chessjerk: 2011-01-28 10:30:23 pm

2010-10-27 07:23:53 pm

Thanks!

Updated the path again, Chapter 1 has been re-taped with a time of 23:29.

EDIT: Obsoleted below.

Paulygon

2010-10-29 05:58:55 am

I like to watch

Ohh, somehow missed the fact that this had been published. -_- Downloading now.. I can't wait to watch the awesomeness. ^_^

chessjerk

2011-01-15 05:03:56 pm

Another update to my new route! See my edited post from August.

Some changes include:
1. Removal of various armor upgrades that turn out to be unnecessary, including: Half Plate for Ragnar, Chain Mail for Alena, Half Plate for Nara for Balzack fight, Iron Helmets for CJ and Cristo. However, I do now get Metal Babble Armor for Ragnar, to ensure that he can survive as the leader through the end of the game.
2. To get the Aeolus Shield in the monster castle costs about a minute. However, apparently you can blow away the Anderougs during that boss fight, significantly shortening that fight. It could also be useful as a substitute for running away, since it hits all enemies.

Since these changes greatly impact all parts of the run, I have restarted taping again and am trying to get through Chapter 1.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

chessjerk

Edit history:

chessjerk: 2011-01-30 07:51:11 am

2011-01-28 10:35:37 pm

Finally through Chapter 1 again! I promise myself never to do this chapter again. Time: 21:50

Three segments into Chapter 2, my total time is 35:45, which is already a brisk 12 minutes ahead of my taped run.

I revised my route again (I did not update my previous route post since I couldn't bring myself to edit that humongous post for a 4th time) to organize my item pickups and minimize the amount of item shifting.

I still haven't decided on whether or not to pick up the Aeolus Shield. I'll test some scenarios later.

EDIT: Finished Chapter 2: 35:08. Total for 1 and 2: 56:58 (almost 15 minutes ahead now)

Five segments into Chapter 3, total overall time is 1:09:27 vs. 1:30:04 for the published run, weeeee!

Darkwing Duck

2011-01-30 01:02:49 pm

Highly Evolved

I was going to say, your Chapter 3 in the current one was the worst one. You should be gaining a good chunk of time here.

chessjerk

2011-02-07 08:37:00 pm

And so I did, although I didn't save as much time as I thought I might at first glance.

Total time through Chapter 3 - 1:38:34 vs. 2:07:00 (28 minutes ahead)