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Edit history:
Arctic_Eagle: 2008-08-26 03:13:02 am
Quote from ktwo:
I know this is a thread about Dragon's Lair, but is there someone who can honestly say they beat Rygar fair and square on PAL ?


I've beaten Ligar fair and square twice (PAL-version). It's one of the most difficult challenges on NES (PAL). I've tried it over 100 times with full health, coat of arms, and enough power for recovery or attack and assault, and I've never been shot at as luckily as Cornshaq was, and never been close to losing as little health as he did. There's no other boss in the game I have any trouble beating.

Edit: I tried to speedrun the Rygar PAL-version yesterday, and managed a 44.47 with a lot of dying (no death-abuse), defeating Ligar for the third time at my first attempt with more luck than I've ever had before. Anyways, it's unfair that you have to be that good at Rygar to beat Ligar on the PAL-version (I beat Ligar for the first time two days ago). Now back to Dragon's Lair.
Thanks for all the information! I've just posted a quality test and if the test is okay I'll be sending a PM to Mike.
Looks good to me. However, looking a bit closer, DL in fact runs at a solid 50fps on PAL (in hindsight, looking at the sprite animation wasn't the most clever move >_>). If nate/ballofsnow are feeling particularly anal, they'll demand HQ as well just for the extra 25 frames, and that means mvbob.
Dragon's Lair's now in the verification topic, so if you wanna verify then gogogo.
Before I discovered speedrunning (thanks to sda !), I wrote a few walkthroughs that were hosted at gamefaqs. One of them was for Dragon's Lair (nes). Occasionally people still give me feedback (especially for Dragon's Lair for some reason). As it happens, the last feedback I got also turned out to contain a trick on the second boss that I hadn't seen before. Other than being easier to perform, the new strategy also turns out to be 2-3 seconds faster than the one employed in the run at sda (not much, but still). Therefor I thought I'd post the strategy here (courtesy to Xandier who shared it with me).

2nd boss (mine trolls) - When the fight begins, crouch and wait for the rear troll to throw two stones. Then move as far right as possible (without "bouncing back" on the right wall). Rise and turn left. Dirk should now be to the right of both trolls (a safe spot). From this position, just fire away until the trolls are no more.

As far as I know, this works on all versions. Good luck to anyone trying to improve the pal-version/being the first one to do the ntsc-version.
Master-88
I did two vid with last boss. I just look out version differences. Im not never thinking last boss on JPN version are almost joke compared NTSC fight.
At least twice easier

NTSC versio


JPN versio


BTW know anyone a today how it is possible skip last boss like TAS did? I test several strategys, but i just can,t founded way make it. I never are see any information with this.
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-03-17 10:34:56 am
Master-88
I did a lot research with this game

About Singe skip. Its working JPN version only. I find it easy to make. Its happen when flying money guy appeared. I did also VID about this

NTSC version (look like here even Singe disappeared he never lost and he always kill you, also he never stop blow baby dragons, but smokey puffs can,t hurt you. Also game freeze happen quite often)


JPN version (Boss really disappear and its not are even difficult perform that. Only hard thing are beat level without losting golds:


PAL version
Its doesn,t not work because these flying guys never appeared in last level. Yeah i trying long even i haved golds. These never appeared

**********************************
About other stuffs

I did beat Singe with dagger only used PAL version. Its absolutely not possible on NTSC and its very hard on PAL too. On PAL & JPN version boss take 10 more hits take down than NTSC. Used axe 30 hits is required (used dagger 58-60 if i counted right)


About mine cart boss there is one good strategy. (working every versions tested)
Nice with some additional information about the game. I think the level 2 boss strategy is the same as what I tried to explain earlier in this thread. Good to have a video of it as well. About Singe, I assume you meant that he is impossible in practice with daggers on the ntsc-version and not that he really is impossible. I'm pretty sure I've beat him with daggers using save states just to try it out.

Are you planning on speedrunning either version ?
Master-88
Quote:
I assume you meant that he is impossible in practice with daggers on the ntsc-version and not that he really is impossible. I'm pretty sure I've beat him with daggers using save states just to try it out.


I mean totally impossible with human luck. Seriously are you beat him with dagger and only one savestate used on NTSC version? Shocked IMO its seems near impossible even TAS used. Just twice amount lenght and baby dragons even more harder take off nothing any human luck to beat him with dagger only NTSC.

But serisously. PAL fight used daggers is still little easier than NTSC fight with axes IMO.

Quote:
Are you planning on speedrunning either version ?


I not haved game my real Nes yet. Speedrunning Dragon lair with NTSC version are out my plans in near future. I can beat Singe about 1/100 attempts on NTSC so i was extremely lucky when i once beat that game without savestates, i think i never can beat it without any dying for speed.

On PAL i can beat Singe about 1/5 attempts so he is SO,SO much easier on PAL than NTSC version.

How about you. Any plan speedrun that? Theoretical current PAL run is beatable time. most you can haved more luck with Singe and save good 10 seconds. Wink
I think I used several save states when I defeated Singe (ntsc-version) with daggers and even then it was tough...

I don't have the cartridge and I have other things that motivate me more so I don't see myself trying to speedrun Dragon's Lair in the near future either. Also, I'd prefer to play on ntsc in that case because of Singe being so crazy hard in that version (I'm stuck with a pal-console). I think the gameplay suits my game style though (slow pace and terrible control  Smiley ).
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-03-23 04:31:01 am
Master-88
I did speed video with Singe. I did it 14 seconds faster than fight in WR run. Its also done on PAL-version



Its really luck base beat this boss quickly. I think perfect fight would be 5-10 seconds more faster what i did. Its took me 4-5 minutes make this. Only one savestate used (before i enter boss).

There was some unlucky smoke puffs and baby dragons, but its very lucky fight overall. I know fight like this might be too risky make in speedruns. But theoretical Singe would be almost 20 seconds faster than fight in WR speedrun.

EDIT:
I did minecart trolls even more faster. This is 4 seconds faster than my previous vid (6-7 seconds faster than fight in WR run). I just find better strategy.


TIPS: Throw two axes before you enter the boss. Your must be throw both before room flash this caused extra damages with 2nd troll.

I beat this boss in 10-11 seconds. I think it is fastest strategy what can found.

EDIT 2:
I find new version difference (at least news for me) Baby dragons take more hits to kill on NTSC than PAL if you used dagger or fire.


Yeah 2 fire and 4 daggers is required on NTSC and 1 fire and 3 dagger is enought on PAL. If you used axes like most players its always take two hits with both versions.

Its little bit easier take baby dragons out if you used flames on PAL. This is my flame fight on PAL


EDIT 3*********** MORE STUFF***********************************************

Grim reaper speedtrick on PAL-version. I beat him under 10 seconds. This is very risky and random strategy. Fucking cool though



There is another fun glitch. Not save time. But if you scroll screen correctly in last level you can kill most baby dragons without need used your weapons IIRC its working NTSC version too.



I did test run last level (PAL) Its not are optimize but its show some strategys. I skip two baby dragons (WR skip one)


There is speedtrick vide with last Dragon. Its very hard make without dying used axes


Its might be good idea used flames with certain places on PAL. Its make bosses sligtly slower, but only couple seconds, expect grimreaper is really slow beat used flames IMO. LAst level is faster though. Only one flame is enough kill each baby dragon. Also Singe seems almost as fast as used flame. I think axe is still better overall because its save all time against grimmy.
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-03-23 07:40:50 pm
Master-88
I did first single segment speedrun into game

I Got beat game in 7.57 on PAL. Its went surprisely fast even i played last level incredible cautions (if i was played it very risky my run was are par as current WR in SDA). Also i got two deaths my run last one cost me 30 seconds. First one was intention. I think its would save time fill your energys and make more runs through enemies

Also my Grimreaper was a lot more cautions than WR runner did. I just never survive against him with risky strategy used. But i surprise how much better run would be possible than SDA run. I lost only 1 minute & 3 seconds SDA run which not sounds much compared how caution this one was. I think 6.30 even sub 6 minutes is possible on real NES with extremely risky gameplay. Without ugly death in last level my run was are 7.30 or less and even then its not was are too good. But yeah this game is challenge. Tongue

BTW this is my 7.57 first run into game

http://www.archive.org/details/DragonsLairnesSpeedrunIn0.07.57pal-version


There is my boss run where i show perfect boss guides with real time


Annoying i not haved game my real NES so i played it with emulator used SDA rules. Its my best casual speedrun right now. But i think if i haved time and motivations i´ll try beat it and i know with risky and lucky attempt i can got beat SDA WR run. But its fact i never submit it because i not have PAL Nes. Im not are interested speedrun NTSC because last boss is way too frustrating

EDIT:
I did another improvement

7.18
24 seconds slower than WR.


Better last level than last time. I was still unlucky with boss fight.

Trolls (i lost 5-6 seconds with my best)
Grimmy (i lost 30 seconds with my best fight) Yeah but maded perfect fight is really random i think 1/30 attempts. Current WR runner also did really lucky fight, but its not are perfect but surely better than my run)
Singe (i lost 11 seconds with my best fight) (I was still 3 seconds faster than fight in WR run)

If i got beat bosses better its only enought rush current WR run. Also every levels are possible play faster and riskier. I just stop way too much. These eggs guys into last level are pain ass. These randomly drops eggs. I played these guys extremely cautions like WR did too.

Now i can say sub 6.30 is surely possible with human luck. Hard to say how much luck you need got sub 6 minutes run on console but its surely theoretical possible too.
It's good that more people are speedrunning this game. Smiley

Unfortunately your game seems to be running too fast. Example: in you're latest video the elevator ride takes about 16 seconds (2:40 - 2:56). If you look in my video it takes about 18 seconds (3:01 - 3:19).

The new strategy on the mine trolls boss is nice. It's good that you found another skippable dragon on the last level. I didn't know about that safe spot on the grim reaper boss. Tongue
I'll come with more comments at a later time...
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-03-24 01:47:27 pm
Master-88
Oh yeah. This seems used real NES game haved more lags than on emulators and its seems it make slower used real NES. Like a lot TAS vid its seems running freaking fast, but im not sure is JPN even more faster version than PAL.

Usually PAL games running with 50hz speed and i not sure count emulatos that difference.  Thanks you told it im not just pointed out it already.

There is one speedtrick in reaper domain


Its not are normally possible run through first pendlum without dying. Wizphix did it though, but if you stay stop skull into air then pendlum are automatically correct spot. But its save some seconds time if you crawl first part through. Look out this upper vid do you see it.

Also i find one glitch. I think its not are useful any console runs. But its might save some frames in TAS runs maybe not, but its looks still fucking cool


EDIT
Are you plan try redo your run in future? Some new tips are founded all around.
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-03-25 07:56:44 am
Master-88
Well i see my two previous run was done with NTSC speed. Emulator not automatically changes speed back of PAL mode.

I did PAL (50hz mode) run in 7.42. I think this was are easily under 7 minutes with NTSC speed (my brother count 6.25 with 60hz speed). Hard to say time differences between 50-60hz mode but i was about 50 seconds slower than WR.

This seems WR run is harder to beat what i thinking first. Though i find PAL mode easier run, because i haved more reaction time for example in elevator shafts, which is one hardest part with NTSC speed.

Though my run was still quite cautions. This time every bosses went very well includes grimreaper.

I haved really bad luck with money guys. Money thiefs never appeared in this run and its cost me total 10 seconds i think. Also i skip some hard tricks which kill me often. I don,t going through first pendlum in reaper domain. Which cost me about 5 seconds or more. But i was bored make it because its kill me 80% of the time and its near frame perfect trick.
Also i not skip first Dragon in last level like last time because its also random one to make and overall my games goes quite well.  There was also big bad cautions with some places into levels. Also i did two intention death like last time. I think death in level 3 is even faster fill energy once back. But i think i not need make it beginning level 4 but its usually run my energys very low.


I still will to say even i lost about 48 seconds by WR run its not seems too fast. But yeah i can say sub 6 minutes is absolutely not possible with PAL speed. But sub 6.30 would be are. 
Right now a don't have the time to do a run ... but maybe later.
I hope you'll be able to get a hold on a PAL cart of the game. Me on the other hand is looking for a "US" NES + the game. Smiley

Some comments on you're latest run and on the game in general.

The draw bridge dragon only spits fire after a special animation (and when he is above the bridge), if you time it right so he does the end of the animation just before he rises above the draw bridge you'll be able to throw a lot of daggers at him.

At the second level (the mines) you can time the second sets of crushing poles so that you don't have to stop. The way I did it was that after I fell down the last giant stair step (right below the bat-hole in the roof) I crunched down, keep holding down because Dirk doesn't want to crunch at first. Then just hold right and crawl past all the poles. When you get near the edge stand up and walk up right to the edge, do a short jump to land on the moving platform and then a another short jump to get to the other side. The next moving platform you can just walk over (release and hold right on the D-pad to make a small correction, don't know if it is necessary but if you don't Dirk will do a short falling animation as you reach the end of the platform).

At 3:45 in you're video you can take a free "E" (Energy). Look at my video at 4:08.

The grim reaper can be attacked right in the beginning if you jump attack at the right spot. If you look where I stand when I fight the grim reaper you'll see another more risky safe spot. He can't hit you if you'll duck, except when he fires his lowest shot (in that case you'll have to stand up so the shot misses you).

A tip on the last level to make the jump over the dagger easier. What I do after I killed the dragon is that I crawl to the very end of the platform and stand up. Then I do a short walk forward and jump over the gap and then the dagger (basically hold right on the D-pad and then almost right after that press and hold the jump button).
Master-88
I haved only NTSC Nes. PAL games doesn,t work and if even work these will running with 60hz speed. Only hope if game appeared on WII virtual console i´ll bought it and then i am interested try real speedrun.

And hell yeah NTSC version not are good, because survive against last boss without any dying is big bad luck base end of the game especially if you try run game cool at all.

Quote:
The draw bridge dragon only spits fire after a special animation (and when he is above the bridge), if you time it right so he does the end of the animation just before he rises above the draw bridge you'll be able to throw a lot of daggers at him.


This was news to me. I always are thinking its random. I see you make it always one round faster than me. Sometimes i need even 4 rounds.

Quote:
At the second level (the mines) you can time the second sets of crushing poles so that you don't have to stop. The way I did it was that after I fell down the last giant stair step (right below the bat-hole in the roof) I crunched down, keep holding down because Dirk doesn't want to crunch at first. Then just hold right and crawl past all the poles


Yeah i am maded it couple times. Sometimes i got die. Maybe just going crawl mode too slow. Not know Roll Eyes

Quote:
At 3:45 in you're video you can take a free "E" (Energy). Look at my video at 4:08.


Yeah i know there is two hidden energy i not grap. Both located hard places and i am thinking got death and fill energys back.

Quote:
The grim reaper can be attacked right in the beginning if you jump attack at the right spot. If you look where I stand when I fight the grim reaper you'll see another more risky safe spot. He can't hit you if you'll duck, except when he fires his lowest shot (in that case you'll have to stand up so the shot misses you).


Well i used it my current run.


its save 20 seconds over my previous run. Also you can make boss extremely quickly, but its might be suicide in speedruns
http://www.youtube.com/user/metroidmaster88?feature=mhw4#p/a/f/2/A-307ItcaXk

Quote:
A tip on the last level to make the jump over the dagger easier. What I do after I killed the dragon is that I crawl to the very end of the platform and stand up. Then I do a short walk forward and jump over the gap and then the dagger (basically hold right on the D-pad and then almost right after that press and hold the jump button).


Nice style. I am always like walk. But i am always nervous at this point and maded it slow.


Quote from MASTER-88:
There is one speedtrick in reaper domain


Its not are normally possible run through first pendlum without dying. Wizphix did it though, but if you stay stop skull into air then pendlum are automatically correct spot. But its save some seconds time if you crawl first part through. Look out this upper vid do you see it.

I've just tested this and it works very well, but you have to do exactly as in the video. At the beginning of the level, start by holding down so that you can start crawling directly! This will allow you to avoid the flying skulls. Next when you get close to the right side stand up (you're allowed to walk a bit to the right if you need to) and jump up to the higher platform. Now this next part is important! Make sure you hold down as you land so that Dirk immediately ducks, then start crawling right past the pendulum.
Edit history:
MASTER-88: 2010-03-26 10:10:30 am
Master-88
Well i did awesome run (Pal speed settings)

7.20


I not haved any idea where i lost time with WR run. Maybe these emulation PAL settings going even slower than real Nes speed. IMO many intention in my run seems better. But i can,t just say because i not haved player where i can test it.

I used almost all new tricks and almost all tricks what wizphix told me yesterday. Yeah this seems almost all tricks is succesfully done in this run.

I´ll hope wizphix will watch this run. If he are interested try redo his own one. Also i wanted know make emulator PAL settings game run even more slower than real PAL game on console? I just can,t find places where i lost too much WR run. I did die twice but this make time lost at most 10 seconds total. I am quite sure emulator run speed are slower with PAL settings than PAL games run on console. This look whiphix walking faster his run.

But as far as i can tell. This is my last run played on emulator. I only can try redo it if i haved game on real Nes.
At first glance your video seems slower, but when I try to analyze it I can't really find that much difference in speed.

Suggested improvements

The Two deaths you have does cost some time, eliminating them can surely improve the time by a few seconds.

The Draw Bridge
You got five hits on the dragon the first time, I managed to get six hits. Since the dragon requires ten hits I only have to hit him four times the second time, which means that I don't have to be as accurate with the timing.

The Entrance Hall
I'm jumping over the second stone the prisoners throw.

The Mines
I'm jumping over the first moving platform.

I got a new idea for this level. Try getting ten gold pieces, if you do this the bonus screen will be much shorter. You'll need to get four extra gold, you'll be getting one for free if you use the jumping technique for the first moving platform. For the other three I suggest the ones over the moving bridge. To get them you'll need to walk rather fast over the bridge, so that you do the “falling off” animation three times.

Reapers Domain
Passing the fourth pendulum (3:59) can be done quicker, with the right timing walk forward and do a high jump then duck and crawl the rest of the way (4:01, in my video).

At 4:16 in my video I'm picking up the axes in the middle of a jump. You can probably do a short jump before piking up the axes, to get down to the lower platform. I believe walking off a platform is slower than jumping down from it.

At the moving platforms I believe my way is faster (4:18, my video), since I'm triggering the shooting skull earlier.

The last pendulum (4:42) can be passed quicker, compare to 4:36 in my video. Doing it my way lets you arrive at decent time for the last moving platform (you don't have to wait a long time for it to come).

The Dragons Lair
Avoiding the dagger can be done quicker, you basically lost all the time you gained from skipping the extra dragon in the beginning.
I like speedrunning and TASing!
I have Japan version of this game (thank my friend!) on tasvideos they say you can jump past singe. I also heard its faster than PAL and NTSC versions.
I would Speedrun it but I fail at the game. (I can't even make it past the first level.)
Kart for SMK, and Seven for FF7.
I did an unofficial time of 6mn22s, beating SDA's record by 34 seconds. Unofficial cos I did it on emu, as I'm unable to do a direct capture screen from my NES. That's weird cos I have Ezcap and VirtualDub, and it perfectly works with Super NES and PSX ! So I really don't understand why it didn't work with my NES... Cry

Nevermind, once I'll fix this problem, I'll redo a run to legit my speedrun, and in fact, my aim is subbing 6mn20s ! If I really can't do anything, I'll upload my 6'22" on Youtube ; at least you'll see my strats.
Kart for SMK, and Seven for FF7.



0:05:52, 64 seconds faster than former record ! Shocked I never expected to beat it by so much ! Initially my plan was around 6'15" - 6'20", but by dint of practice, I realized under 6'00" could be possible. I'm extremely happy of this run ; of course it's improvable (by finding new strats, or with more luck against 2 last bosses or with Lizard King), but I'd be surprised if someone reaches under 5'30" one day...

This run was done on original NES ; I sent a mail to Puwexil, I'm just waiting the approval now. Smiley


[The Drawbridge]
You need 10 daggers to kill the dragon. My strat is 7 then 3. The 2 daggers I use when I kneel down are on purpose ; I noticed that if you stand up too fast after dragon's fireball, the dragon has the time to launch a second fireball before dying, and you'll lose time to kneel down another time. These 2 daggers are just here to give me a timing to stand up at the right moment. Thanks to that, I can kill the dragon before he launches another fireball, and I can directly walk to the door.

[The Entrance Hall]
You can think I lose time by keeping my Gold Bonus (as Lizard King didn't appear). That's right, it means I don't skip the Gold Bonus screen. But it helps me to go a little faster in next level, you'll understand why.

[The Gold Mines]
In this level, I usually take 8 Gold Bonus with my strat. As I kept the first one taken in previous level, the idea is taking one more Gold Bonus (the one over the second moving platform) to have precisely 10 Gold Bonus at the end of the level. Thanks to that, the Gold Bonus screen will be passed faster than 8 with Gold Bonus. The way I pass the last moving platform is very tricky, but with practice, I can reach a solid successrate here. Surprisingly a Gold Bonus is added to my total, even if I don't jump directly on it (and notice it doesn't disappear) ! I don't know if it's a bug or something, but you can try, it works at each time ! I couldn't beat the trolls faster than that : it's hard to kill the one to the left at his first appearance, but I managed to do it here. Otherwise you lose around 2 seconds to wait his second appearance and kill him.

[The Hall Of The Grim Reaper]
The first hidden energy isn't really necessary, but as I don't lose time by taking it, it's safer. The Reaper can be beaten faster with more luck (for example if he does only low fireballs). A more aggressive strategy is also possible, but I think it requires some luck too.

[Singe's Cavern]
Until the very last moment, I planned to jump over the third baby dragon, but it's very tricky. And even if it's faster, I realized I lost this benefit cos of the second flying dragon (who drops something like a rock), as I have to wait him just after I killed the sixth baby dragon, to move safely to the next island. So I switched to a safer strat. Against Singe, I counted the number of hits, so I knew what I was doing at the end, don't worry. ^^
Professional Second Banana
KartSeven, can you resend me the submission info?  It apparently got devoured by my e-mail server.
Edit history:
KartSeven: 2012-08-11 05:48:08 pm
Kart for SMK, and Seven for FF7.
Problem solved. Wink

FYI, I did a 0:06:03 during my stream tonight ! The entire stream is here, and go to 1:11:20 if you only wanna see the run.