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Edit history:
Bismuth: 2014-10-10 02:00:49 am
Bismuth: 2014-10-10 01:57:06 am
Worthless categories WR master
This 'no major skips' single-segment category is quite outdated. It has seen no serious competition for as long as I know (at least 5 years, probably 8 years), and the currently displayed run of 4 hours 26 minutes could most probably be improved by about 1:10 to 1:20, as a rough estimate - maybe even sub-3 hours is reasonable.

Instead, consider No Levels Early. The definition of NLE is less restrictive than 'no major skips' but is also much clearer: you can beat the game however you wish, but you cannot enter lobbies that were not unlocked and you cannot skip satisfying B. Locker's banana requests. In short, you cannot enter levels early. This category is a relatively new one that was created by the DK64 community as we were in need of a run that was longer than 40 minutes but shorter than 6 hours and a half. The old version, 100GB, was considered too arbitrary since it did not restrict any level except hideout helm, and it also did not require boss keys aside from the bare minimum you inevitably need.

That being said, it uses the Intro Story Glitch to perform the Funky Weapons Glitch, which gives Funky's Weapons at the beginning of the game. This very glitch is what makes any% fall into the 'new game+' category, since it uses cartridge-wide progress (that has to be unlocked once and cannot be erased without fiddling with the game memory) to transfer multiplayer elements on a fresh save file. Note that the progress isn't a file save or anything like that, though. The stuff you get in your file actually comes from the multiplayer mode.

Therefore, NLE would still technically fall into the 'new game+' category, which I guess would be problematic since 'no major skips' is kind of exactly not that.


Now, consider my opinion on the subject. I believe that NLE should replace Single-segment with deaths because:
1. This current definition actually does not exclude the possibility of doing exactly like Manocheese's run, aside from having to buy two guns. With current strategies, I could very well see a no FWG single-segment run be completed in about 47 minutes. The 'no major skips' part is kind of implied, but not even stated.
2. No major skips is vague. What constitutes a major skip? Is skipping shutting off the blast-o-matic a major skip? Is skipping feeding Scoff a major skip? Is skipping Nintendo and Rareware coin a major skip? Is entering a level or a lobby early a major skip? Is skipping buying an instrument to open a door that opens up half of a level by going out of bounds a major skip? Most skips are obviously major or not major, but some can be argued both ways. No Levels Early is as clear as it can be: No entering levels early, period.
3. It has recognition and competition. The community recognizes 3 "official" categories: any%, NLE, 101%. There's a number of small side-categories but these are the 3 that have leaderboards and are recognized. Like I said earlier, the run on SDA right now might very well be the last run of that particular category in DK64, and it was done in 2006. NLE has been pushed down to about 3:10 by Cfox, then all the way down to 2:42 by me and is now getting quite optimized by 2dos, who reached 2:35 not too long ago. There are 12 times registered on the DK64 leaderboards for it, and it is seeing a new runner every now and then.
4. Single-segment is in itself kind of an outdated concept. SDA now allows single segment with resets, and a huge portion of speedruns are now timed in real-time, with use of saves, deaths and resets however it is the fastest, which I think is a better idea than restricting the use of resetting. However, NLE does not abuse resets, using only two, both very late in the run and close together.

So, these are my arguments. In short, I think NLE is a straight-up improvement on the current category on the site because it is clearer, much more recognized, has competition and has much more optimized times than Single-segment with resets. Please overlook the specifics of FWG and not let a minor definition detail keep a good category from being featured on the site over an old, dead one that hasn't seen a run in almost a decade. In my opinion, SDA should strive to show the very best of what the games have to offer, and replacing SS w/ deaths with NLE would definitely be a step in that direction.
Thread title:  
SEGA Junkie
Regardless of whether I agree or disagree (and I haven't honestly given it enough consideration to be sure), this entire line of reasoning is completely irrelevant until such time as someone submits a NLE run to SDA. I understand it's kind of frustrating to have those older runs up, but they were accepted at the time (and they were good runs at the time) and we don't make a habit of removing runs that have been put up on the site unless there's another run to replace it.
Edit history:
Bismuth: 2014-10-10 02:08:49 am
Worthless categories WR master
Well, to be honest, what stopped me from doing an "SDA-approved" recording last year was that the run did not fit within the current categories. At least getting a greenlight for a submission would be helpful.
Not a walrus
If you have a category that you think should be considered we certainly won't know unless somebody brings it up (maybe somebody did in this case, but I don't know any specifics). If you think it should replace another category that's sort of a separate issue.

As for "no major skips" that's intentionally vague because it's very game dependent. "All primary mission objectives" might be a good example of a "no major skips" category, for example the current Oblivion run. For Super Metroid "no major skips" would probably mean like the current any% run on the site that kills the four golden bosses, but still skips Spore Spawn. Conversely, OOB/no-OOB isn't a very good qualifier for most games.

I don't know enough about DK64 to really comment on the current site run, but your description I don't think NLE would replace it, if only for it being NG+ instead of NG.
Edit history:
mike89: 2014-10-12 08:05:20 pm
SEGA Junkie
Honestly ever since the OoT MST run went up I've been thinking we should be more explicitly working with game communities on categories like this, as long as they a) complete the game, and b) actually fill a need between different types of runs. In this case NLE is the clear "middling" category adopted by the community, having already tried and tested an alternative that was found not to work quite as well. To do anything else but accept that as our middling category too feels like needlessly fighting the tide.

The NG+ point is really silly too - it is NG+, technically, and should be labelled as such, but the difference between using it and not is probably only a minute (a decent percentage of which would be chewed up by the setup of the glitch in the first place).

Should a theoretical NLE run replace rdrunner's run, then? As a demonstration of the "state of the game", undoubtedly. As a relatively equivalent category? I'm probably leaning towards yes.

(yes, this feels kind of silly to post right after saying I don't have an opinion - consider it my procrastination abilities at work Wink )
<(^_^)>
Quote from mike89:
Honestly ever since the OoT MST run went up I've been thinking we should be more explicitly working with game communities on categories like this, as long as they a) complete the game, and b) actually fill a need between different types of runs. In this case NLE is the clear "middling" category adopted by the community, having already tried and tested an alternative that was found not to work quite as well. To do anything else but accept that as our middling category too feels like needlessly fighting the tide.


This is actually a pretty significant reason as to why a lot of runners today don't want to bother submitting to SDA. SDA already agrees to (to some degree) use the timing method that the game community goes by (as shown by zoasty's super metroid submissions, switching from in-game time to real-time). Why not do so for categories, at least for well-established communities? The SDA category definitions/restrictions make sense for games that don't have such community with well-agreed categories, to prevent people from making up strange arbitrary categories for games nobody runs and such. And generally speaking, if someone tries to submit an arbitrary category that the community didn't agree upon in the first place, it would be rejected in verification anyways.
Edit history:
UraniumAnchor: 2014-10-13 01:53:02 pm
Not a walrus
Quote from kirbymastah:
Quote from mike89:
Honestly ever since the OoT MST run went up I've been thinking we should be more explicitly working with game communities on categories like this, as long as they a) complete the game, and b) actually fill a need between different types of runs. In this case NLE is the clear "middling" category adopted by the community, having already tried and tested an alternative that was found not to work quite as well. To do anything else but accept that as our middling category too feels like needlessly fighting the tide.


This is actually a pretty significant reason as to why a lot of runners today don't want to bother submitting to SDA. SDA already agrees to (to some degree) use the timing method that the game community goes by (as shown by zoasty's super metroid submissions, switching from in-game time to real-time). Why not do so for categories, at least for well-established communities? The SDA category definitions/restrictions make sense for games that don't have such community with well-agreed categories, to prevent people from making up strange arbitrary categories for games nobody runs and such. And generally speaking, if someone tries to submit an arbitrary category that the community didn't agree upon in the first place, it would be rejected in verification anyways.


The way you're wording this sounds like a problem that doesn't really exist, at least not to the degree you're describing. The only category I can think of off the top of my head that sees wide use that we wouldn't accept is RBO for Super Metroid. There was a Crash 2 run a little while back that didn't really fit into traditional SDA categories (no game over abuse, closest thing is no deaths but it had an accidental death in it) that we still accepted based on the community's category.

So what you're describing has already happened at least once. The primary reason it hasn't happened more is because it hasn't been brought up all that much.
Exoray
It is kind of pointless to debate whether or not a theoretical run of one category would cross obsolete another run. If someone submits a run of a particular category and thinks it should cross obsolete something else, that discussion can take place there and then. We're not going to remove a run just because it's old unless it's actually also obsoleted by something.

The actual suggested category merits some discussion in advance of course.
I don't think you should be mixing up an NG+ definition with a "no major skips" definition as they mean completely different things. For this game, FWG is what categorizes it as a New Game+. Whether or not someone goes ahead and performs any large-skips or not in the same run is irrelevant for the being of the NG+ tag. Perhaps you think it feels contradictory to have a run saying no major skips where it contains something like FWG that could be perceived as a major skip? This is exactly why labeling a run after what it does not contain is usually a poor choice and we instead prefer to label runs after what they actually do contain. You don't see "no major skip" tags on runs on SDA, you see an any% run and an any% run with large-skip glitches instead. This way you could potentially for a game have a "NG+ run" and a "NG+ run with large-skip glitches" and they wouldn't feel contradictory in the same way.

I don't think you should worry whether or not your suggested category is classified as NG+ or not. It just means that there theoretically could exist a NG run within the same other constraints. If there's too little difference between a NG+ and a NG run for a game, then likely we'd only bother keeping the faster one around as a category anyways. Kinda like Conker's Bad Fur Day.

From what I remember, MST was added for OoT because of large community support and the fact that the category was very different from the other ones (and quite some nagging). This category had an actual solid foundation within that running community.
Quote:
This category is a relatively new one

Quote:
having already tried and tested an alternative that was found not to work quite as well.


These two quotes together does not make a very convincing case that this is a solid category suggestion yet. What's to say that this category is going to stick around and not just be the flavour of the month? What's to say that this will be the category that will be the solution for the lack of a "middler" and not becoming scrapped come January because someone thinks of something even better?

I honestly would prefer to see some stability for the middler definition before considering things further. We don't want to put up runs for a temporary category. I personally would also prefer to see a better name for it, something that's inclusive (category deviator) and not something excluding (arbitrary restriction) but maybe that's just because I've seen all the problems excluding definitions have generated over the years.
By relatively new, I'm pretty sure this category has been around close to a year at least.
Worthless categories WR master
To clarify some things:

1. The category is almost one year old to this date.
2. The NLE runners have never made a move to submit to SDA in the past because it was not a category, hence this post to get conversation and a greenlight to make sure that yes, granted that a run would be submitted, NLE would replace the old category on the site, so that efforts are not spent to ultimately lead to a denied run.
3. The DK64 community disagrees with the use of "NG+" to define the use of FWG. FWG uses the mystery menu, which is unlocked in the first playthrough of the game. Many speedruns use features that are unlocked in the first playthrough of a game without being classified as new game+, like skipping cutscenes for instance.
4. Considering "any%" and "any% with large skips" seems backwards to me. Isn't any% supposed to be the fastest way you can beat the game no matter how?

Quote from moooh:
I honestly would prefer to see some stability for the middler definition before considering things further. We don't want to put up runs for a temporary category.

NLE is not a "temporary category", it is the permanent middle category for DK64. I really don't know what exactly made you think otherwise.

Quote from moooh:
I personally would also prefer to see a better name for it, something that's inclusive (category deviator) and not something excluding (arbitrary restriction)

Fine, we'll rename it "All levels on time".
Edit history:
Manocheese: 2014-10-13 05:45:22 pm
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
If we allowed this category, would someone actually submit a run of it? If not, I don't see a point in rearranging the categories.
Worthless categories WR master
If I submit a run of this category, would you accept it? If not, I don't see a point in recording a run for SDA.
So... if nobody submits a run, the category won't be accepted, but if the category won't be accepted, nobody will submit a run?

Do I have this understood correctly?
Worthless categories WR master
It's far easier to consider a category and say "yeah we'd accept that" than it is to first do a run, then submit it hoping it gets accepted. Why is it so hard to understand that? If you guys say you don't want NLE on SDA I won't even bother. If you say you would accept it given there's a run then I would know, and then I would do a run. I wouldn't record attempts off stream locally with no microphone if it's gonna be denied anyway.
Not a walrus
Quote from Bismuth:
2. The NLE runners have never made a move to submit to SDA in the past because it was not a category, hence this post to get conversation and a greenlight to make sure that yes, granted that a run would be submitted, NLE would replace the old category on the site, so that efforts are not spent to ultimately lead to a denied run.


Something can't be a category if we don't know about it, and generally speaking we don't go out in search of non-obvious categories, just like we don't go out and ask people to submit runs to SDA. So I find this reasoning a bit questionable, if you don't ask us about something you can't really get an answer for it. Also whether or not it would replace another category entirely is tangential to whether or not we'd accept this one. Unless you're saying you wouldn't submit a run on this category unless we got rid of the other one, which I find to be a pretty strange distinction.

We'll probably have a more official answer for you Real Soon Now(tm).
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
You still haven't provided a good reason why we should accept this category. In particular, your claim that the category is accepted in some "community" is fairly irrelevant given that said community has not submitted a run in years. Why should we believe that the acceptance of this one category will somehow motivate them to submit when numerous other categories have not?
Worthless categories WR master
Pretty much everyone in this thread giving an opinion about No Levels Early is completely out of touch with DK64 and simply talking out of their ass, especially Manocheese, who, despite running this game 4 years ago, seems to have no idea at all about its community. I would appreciate an answer, UA, but right now it looks to me that my suggested change is viewed quite negatively. Therefore, I won't bother submitting a run that would be received with that kind of attitude.
<(^_^)>
NLE is very commonly ran nowadays by DK64 runners and is pretty well-established. It isn't that hard to just say yes/no (which should be yes), which I'm pretty sure is all what bismuth is looking for.

And bismuth, nobody here is really looking at it negatively besides manocheese, and moooh/UA are basically saying they personally don't know enough to really say yes/no and are skeptical (which is understandable).
Quote from Bismuth:
It's far easier to consider a category and say "yeah we'd accept that" than it is to first do a run, then submit it hoping it gets accepted. Why is it so hard to understand that? If you guys say you don't want NLE on SDA I won't even bother. If you say you would accept it given there's a run then I would know, and then I would do a run. I wouldn't record attempts off stream locally with no microphone if it's gonna be denied anyway.

Couldn't you use amarec or something to do that while streaming?
<(^_^)>
Quote from TheMG2:
Quote from Bismuth:
It's far easier to consider a category and say "yeah we'd accept that" than it is to first do a run, then submit it hoping it gets accepted. Why is it so hard to understand that? If you guys say you don't want NLE on SDA I won't even bother. If you say you would accept it given there's a run then I would know, and then I would do a run. I wouldn't record attempts off stream locally with no microphone if it's gonna be denied anyway.

Couldn't you use amarec or something to do that while streaming?


You can and it isn't really that difficult. I just have amarec running and xsplit (you can probably direct capture amarec with OBS as well) direct captures amarec for video footage. Amarec's audio outputs through my computer (muted), which goes to the sound output of my broadcasting software, and mic connected as usual.
Well, I don't know if it just plain doesn't work for him for whatever reason.
Worthless categories WR master
Amarec doesn't work properly for a reason that I can't remember now, I tried using it when I first got my dazzle a year and a half ago, I haven't used it since.
<(^_^)>
You can take a look at https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/dazzle_dvc100_audio_fix_thread.html and ask questions there if you want; I honestly don't remember what I did to get the audio to work on my dazzle (I assume that's the problem, since that's what a lot of people run into)
Exoray
Heh, you made it sound like the category was invented like a month ago.
You'll have to remember that things that are obvious to you may not be obvious to others.

You're not expected to submit a run for a category you don't know would be accepted so it's definitely preferable that this is settled in advance.

Right now we're naturally sceptical since DK64 seems to contain a gazillion categories within the community and we wouldn't really have any idea whether or not this is the right one to choose. So far we've only seen one community voice for and one community voice against. So we'd gladly accept some more input on this.
Actually, they only track 3 categories on their leaderboard.

http://dkspeedruns.com/DK64/dk64.php?page=dk64lead.php