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AquaTiger: 2007-07-06 09:03:32 pm
Never give up!
Don't fret, the Barbarian and Druid are higher in my priorities (more so with the Barbarian).  But if no one has this character finished by the time I get done with those two, I may entertain the idea of a run with the Necromancer.

I didn't get to read all the stuff on the old topic yet (is Gorash even still working on this?), so I'm coming up with things as I go.

Skills:

The Necromancer is the hardest spellcasting character to develop/use for a speedrun of Diablo 2.  Too many of his skills don't really help the speedrunner at all, and his boss fighting ability sucks the most among the spellcasting classes (and worse than some melee-class characters).  The upside is that he has some of the best large-crowd-combat skills in the game (with skills like Iron Maiden - for when melee crowds reach a minion or the player - and Corpse Explosion - for destroying large groups in a few shots, especially ranged groups if you're any good at leading them around).  Thankfully his best (IMO) skills are not nearly as affected by magic resistance as those of, say, the Sorceress or Druid.

Here's what I know for sure:
-1 point in Teeth
-1 point in Corpse Explosion
-1 point in Clay Golem
-1 point in Dim Vision
-4 points in Bone Spear

Clay Golem's a diversion, plain and simple.  Though it may be better to get that one from a +skill item, I decided to give it a point - it has no prerequisites and that's one less skill we have to juggle around.

Dim Vision.... well.... once we have the levels we need, we can pretty much ignore all other monsters.  This is where Dim Vision comes in - cast it on enemies and run around some obstacles.  The 'running around obstacles' is because you need them to hit some to get them to stop following you.  Regardless it really helps with escaping enemies.  Might even help against the Finger Mages and Megademons in Chaos Sanctuary (it WON'T work against the Oblivion Knights, which is a pain because they cast curses too).

Terror might help but I'm not sure whether it works on monsters at higher levels than the player - regardless you'd need to spend three skill points to get it, so I didn't list it.  If it really DOES help, get it from a wand or shrunken head.

The reason I don't put Iron Maiden as a skill in which we KNOW we have to put points is because, while the skill's great on mobs, it's not too useful on bosses with the notable exception of Duriel and MAYYYBE Baal.  Acquiring that skill through a wand (probably more likely) or shrunken head (Necromancer-only shields, in other words) is a much smarter idea, if you asked me, than using two skill points (because you'd also need to get Amplify Damage, and that skill only works with physical damage) for it.

The solution I see for the rest of the skill points as most likely to work may sound a little crazy, but just hear me out and I'll explain.  After getting the crucial skills for those levels, put all remaining points in Teeth.  Sure, that skill sucks on its own, but since the Necromancer doesn't have a whole lot working for him in the case of boss-fighting ability, pouring points in Teeth to synergize Bone Spear (his best attack spell in a speedrun) seems like the best bet to me.  I'll GLADLY entertain other ideas though.

Stats:

I believe our stats deal should work much like the Druid.  In other words, 10 in Strength, 30-40 in Vitality and the rest in Energy.  Necromancers need a LOT of Energy though, so I may suggest snagging from Vitality.

Specific Strategies:

Andariel:  First off, DON'T use Corpse Explosion against the mounds of enemies in the room before her chamber.  Lure her into that room, get her near some of those enemies's corpses and THEN use Corpse Explosion.  I expect we'll have to portal at least once to have enough mana.  When you run out of corpses, finish with Teeth.

Duriel: Cast Iron Maiden on Duriel and then just start summoning Golems right next to him.  Re-cast Iron Maiden when it runs out.  Easiest boss for the Necromancer.  But remind me whether the 10x damage against minions that bosses can do is ALSO part of the damage reflected.

Mephisto: By now you'll have Bone Spear, and that's probably what should be used.  However, one strategy I'd entertain is luring the Council Members near you, ripping through THEM with Bone Spear (ideally pegging Mephisto a couple of times in the process), and getting Mephisto over the corpses.  Then Corpse Explosion away - the corpses can do roughly anywhere from 100% to 370% the damage of a single Bone Spear (I came up with these numbers by taking the low end of the Council Member's health range multiplied by .6 and the high end of their health range, and multiplied each by 5/6 to take into account Mephisto's fire resistance.  THEN I divided these by the maximum damage of a rank 4 Bone Spear synergized with rank 14 Teeth, and then multiplied by 100 to get a percentage.  So I forgot to take into account any unique enemies in the area, and the damage I'm comparing against is higher than what would be had by then).  Once out of corpses THEN start using Bone Spear against Mephisto.

Diablo: He has too many close-range magical attacks for Iron Maiden to work.  I'd stick to Bone Spear (I thought I once heard that the corpses resulting from the Chaos Sanctuary battle can't be used for Corpse Explosion against Diablo at all, which is why I didn't suggest it).  Unless the Baal strategy I'll suggest falters, THIS is probably our hardest boss.

Ancients: Necromancer probably has the easiest (not fastest - that's still the Sorceress) time here out of all the spellcasting classes.  Line at least two of them up and Bone Spear away.  They have no general magic resistance and pretty low HP - it should take about 15-20 Bone Spears to finish one of them off.  This is why I say line them up - you save a LOT of time and mana.

Baal's five waves of minions: I think the Necromancer has no NEED to park any of these guys.  Just off one of them (Bone Spear for early groups, Iron Maiden/Clay Golem for later ones) and start blowing things up.  (Extra attacks against them might be needed though.)

Baal: I took a look at the Amazon run and I've determined that Baal MIGHT be able to be persuaded into using physical attacks in melee.  So I'm going to suggest repeating the Duriel strategy - although it's going to take longer because Baal can teleport, might just not want to cooperate, and has tons more hit points.
Thread title:  
Edit history:
gia: 2007-07-06 10:11:51 pm
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
you will still want amplify damage up when you use corpse explosion, iron maiden + blood golem would be one skill away each

you can get about everything through items and switch when you get to the points you'll use them, that way teeth could get all the points and finish bosses quicker, but you would have to switch a lot
You're right about corpse explosion in the chaos sanctuary.  After the last seal is hit all bodies in the general area are removed.  I'm not sure are bodies near the entrance, might be worth looking into if he can be lured that far.

Luring council members to mephisto sounds like a good plan, worst case you could use a golem to "moat" him.  I'm pretty sure bone spear will go that far.
Edit history:
AquaTiger: 2007-07-06 11:49:45 pm
Never give up!
How silly of me to forget Amplify Damage would help Corpse Explosion.

Anyway, I slightly retweaked the build and here's what I've come up with:
-1 point in Clay Golem
-1 point in Bone Armor
-5 points in Bone Wall
-5 points in Teeth
-1 point in Corpse Explosion
-4 points in Bone Spear
-1 point in Amplify Damage
-1 point in Dim Vision
-1 point in Iron Maiden

Bone Spear's damage is actually not that much lower this way - partly because Bone Wall also synergizes with it (Bone Wall also synergizes Bone Armor at a rate that's better than putting points in Bone Armor) and partly because the Bone Spear synergies are all so weak.

Bone Armor and Bone Wall are put in for alternate defense tactics - Bone Wall to slow enemy advances (only important to Acts 2 and 3) and for later synergy, and Bone Armor in case the enemy actually gets through to me (if this works we can almost ditch Vitality sometime in Act 2 - I say 'almost' because we still have to worry about elemental attacks last I checked).
Edit history:
Zurreco: 2007-07-06 11:51:32 pm
Just call me the cynicism machine
So the ideal Necro build is the one that Gorash is using in his run then?  Roll Eyes

Well, at least he doesn't waste points in Bone Armor or Iron Maiden.
Edit history:
AquaTiger: 2007-07-07 01:30:50 am
Never give up!
I looked at the old thread again upon hearing that, and while I didn't read his build exactly, it does seem to match up a little too closely.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic there with the second statement, but I'm going to act like you're not.  There may be other misinterpretation going on as well.

The point in Bone Armor is there JUST because it's a prerequisite for Bone Wall.  Unless I'm missing something here and being granted a skill through an item is enough to meet a prerequisite.  (And I could have sworn at one point that he or someone else working on a run with the Necromancer used it to help with their atrocious health problem.)

As for Iron Maiden, I checked to see what an extra point in Bone Wall would do, and the difference is about 3 points average damage for Bone Spear (and 1 or 2 for Teeth, but that's less relevant).  I'm hesitant to immediately dump a good skill from permanent availability on that alone, even if Bone Spear's piercing makes the actual damage higher than it looks.  I'd only change my mind if relying on items for both it AND Amplify Damage gave better results - which may be the case because further boosts (from items) to Iron Maiden don't help the damage enough and further boosts to Amplify Damage only affect larger areas.

If that's the case, we add 1 point each to Teeth and Bone Wall in exchange (due to the way skill restrictions work I believe you can't add both to Bone Wall).

Oh, and one more thing about the build.  I think Gorash snags Corpse Explosion MUCH later than what I was intending with this build (my intent was somewhere around level 8-10 at latest, while I think I read that he waits until level 17-18).
Aquatiger, i don't want to sound rude, but ... 'A little less conversation, a little more action please' Wink
Never give up!
Quote:
Aquatiger, i don't want to sound rude, but ... 'A little less conversation, a little more action please' Wink


If you mean the multiple topics and not having all of them immediately done, that's actually very normal of me.  While one run gets done, a bunch of others can be planned out and be ready when I get there.

Who knows, maybe even someone takes it up before I get there (or in this case, someone resumes progress on their project) and has it well in hand by the time I'm done.
Edit history:
Psonar: 2007-07-07 04:32:00 am
Long live SF64!
Quote:
Aquatiger, i don't want to sound rude, but ... 'A little less conversation, a little more action please' Wink

I thought this was a forum - a place devoted to conversation . . .

You may find it odd that we spend a lot of time in discussion about speedrunning, but that's what makes SDA the community it is.  If everyone just made runs all the time there would be no intelligent exchange of ideas.  This topic, and all of Aquatiger's recent Diablo discussion is fairly lightweight compared to a lot of the discussion that goes on.

Everyone goes about speedrunning differently - some folks just start playing and keep playing until they gradually craft a solid result - others first discuss strategy and plan out the run's logistics before getting bogged down with poorly planned gameplay.

Certainly it goes both ways, but be courteous to the runner regardless - or we'll release the request monster....  Tongue

Edit:
Okay, you said "Please".... sorry if I came across harsh... if you're new, then welcome to SDA marlaska
Just call me the cynicism machine
Quote:
I don't know if you're being sarcastic there with the second statement, but I'm going to act like you're not.

Good, because I'm not.  Said skills are a waste of possible damage potential.

Quote:
The point in Bone Armor is there JUST because it's a prerequisite for Bone Wall.

I checked to see what an extra point in Bone Wall would do, and the difference is about 3 points average damage for Bone Spear (and 1 or 2 for Teeth, but that's less relevant).

So you're putting a point in Bone Armor because it's a prerequisite for Bone Wall which you're mostly using for the synergy, even though Teeth and Corpse Explosion both give the same synergy bump (7% per level) to Bone Spear that Bone Wall does?  So what you're saying is that you're not putting two points between Teeth and Corpse Explosion to bump their damage potentials for no reason aside from wanting to play it safe...

Quote:
Oh, and one more thing about the build.  I think Gorash snags Corpse Explosion MUCH later than what I was intending with this build (my intent was somewhere around level 8-10 at latest, while I think I read that he waits until level 17-18).

Well then, that's certainly a huge improvement.
Never give up!
The skills that synergize with Bone Spear are Bone Wall, Bone Spirit, Teeth, and Bone Prison.  I don't know where you're coming up with the idea that Corpse Explosion synergizes Bone Spear, because it doesn't.

All putting points in Corpse Explosion would do is increase the cost and slightly increase the explosion radius.  The increase in explosion radius is not enough to justify putting more than one point in there.

By synergizing Teeth with Bone Wall instead of pouring points into it directly, you're keeping its mana costs down.

In Act 3, 4, and 5, where there's a lot of enemy avoidance, a strong enough Bone Armor would save us more time than the lost damage potential would cost.  Basically, you can focus all your effort on running through areas rather than needing to cut a path through with spells - the only thing you have to prevent is getting completely surrounded.  (Though I'd have reason to ditch Bone Armor if I found that you still had to deal with 'hit recovery' when Bone Armor is up.)  Synergizing with Bone Wall, in addition to helping Bone Spear and Teeth, increases Bone Armor's hit points faster than putting points in Bone Armor does.

Even in areas where we have to kill enemies, a decent Bone Armor would still help us because the Necromancer's health doesn't grow fast enough from Vitality.  This allows us to focus much more on stocking mana potions.
I'm not sure when you plan to hit the bone spear level requirement, but it seems like there will be a good 5 levels of teeth improvement from levels 13 to 18.  Putting those points in teeth would double the number of teeth shot as well as make up for the lost synergy damage from bone wall.  The increased mana cost is minimal, and by that point in the game you should be fairly rich and be able to buy as many mana potions as you need.

Those points in bone wall would make a level 1 bone armor somewhere around 95 points strong.  I think you still need increased hit recovery to run through mobs with the armor, so it seems to me that potions would do just fine for running the earlier acts. 
Never give up!
Quote:
I'm not sure when you plan to hit the bone spear level requirement, but it seems like there will be a good 5 levels of teeth improvement from levels 13 to 18.  Putting those points in teeth would double the number of teeth shot as well as make up for the lost synergy damage from bone wall.  The increased mana cost is minimal, and by that point in the game you should be fairly rich and be able to buy as many mana potions as you need.

Those points in bone wall would make a level 1 bone armor somewhere around 95 points strong.  I think you still need increased hit recovery to run through mobs with the armor, so it seems to me that potions would do just fine for running the earlier acts.  



I'll tackle these one at a time.

A necromancer can basically afford to hit level 18 at any time between entering the Arcane Sanctuary and entering Lower Kurast.  Later than that is too risky.  Ideally they should be hitting it no later than the end of Spider Forest IMO.

If increased hit recovery still IS necessary for running through mobs with Bone Armor, then that skill and Bone Wall are dropped entirely, as it's usefulness is much lower.

If we're relying on wands/shrunken heads for Amplify Damage and Iron Maiden, the prime building spot for Teeth is pretty early - essentially levels 2-5 and 9-10.  If we're also dropping Bone Wall and Bone Armor, it becomes 2-5 and 9-17 just on the basis that there's no other skills where extra points can help.