Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction -> Druid run

2005-08-11 05:05:22 pm

Like A Fox

Oh.

I looked up imo in my dictionary and didn't see any acronyms. Maybe I should get a new one. It told me about some goat native to the Himalayan Mountains... but that didn't fit.

Siyko

Edit history:

Siyko: 2005-08-11 05:32:02 pm

2005-08-11 05:31:28 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

I think radament is a bad idea for an optimal run, but its an easy way to level in the beginning of act 2, and makes the rest of the act easier. Arcane runs instead would probably save time.

As far as seeding, and how much focus to put on the maps, I think it really doesn't make too much of a difference. A map can only be so good. It might save you a couple minutes on running, and some convinient WP's can save off some more seconds, but really, it's hard to make too much of a difference. "Mad dashes" are really a small part of the time - I believe the Assasin spent 7 minutes running to the ancients - thats 7 minutes including
bloody foothills (lloonngg)
frigid highland (also long)
arreat plateau (long)
crystaline passage (full of enemies)
glacial trail (full of enemies)
frozen tundra (eh)
ancients way (full of enemies)

Easily the longest marathon you'll run in a dedicated sprint. If the maps were totally optimal, there's still a minimum distance, and places like the foothills have no randomness.

I think it's really really hard to lose/save time on map optimization, so play a map you know, and that's all that matters.

Oh yeah - what is this duping? I hope it doesn't include save/load.

I think radament is a bad idea for an optimal run, but its an easy way to level in the beginning of act 2, and makes the rest of the act easier. Arcane runs instead would probably save time.

As far as seeding, and how much focus to put on the maps, I think it really doesn't make too much of a difference. A map can only be so good. It might save you a couple minutes on running, and some convinient WP's can save off some more seconds, but really, it's hard to make too much of a difference. "Mad dashes" are really a small part of the time - I believe the Assasin spent 7 minutes running to the ancients - thats 7 minutes including
bloody foothills (lloonngg)
frigid highland (also long)
arreat plateau (long)
crystaline passage (full of enemies)
glacial trail (full of enemies)
frozen tundra (eh)
ancients way (full of enemies)

Easily the longest marathon you'll run in a dedicated sprint. If the maps were totally optimal, there's still a minimum distance, and places like the foothills have no randomness.

I think it's really really hard to lose/save time on map optimization, so play a map you know, and that's all that matters.

Oh yeah - what is this duping? I hope it doesn't include save/load.

jimsfriend

2005-08-11 05:53:18 pm

Like A Fox

Quote:

Oh yeah - what is this duping? I hope it doesn't include save/load.

The process I use involves saving and loading among other things. Maybe Gorash does it a different way that could be used in game.

spineshark

2005-08-11 11:42:18 pm

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

Quote:

But I lost all my high level characters when my brothers comp crashed (mainly the lvl 90 zon) and in 1.10 and 1.11 it is sooooooo hard to beat hell without help from other people with uber leet gear.

Ehh, depends on the character. My necromancer beat Hell with no equipment of consequence except the 'Ume's Lament' Grim Wand and a 'Rhyme' Shield (everything else was MF and Faster Run/Walk). Though Barbarians in Hell are not a simple task.

Quote:

I suppose this should be in a new thread, but as I have no plans to do the run I won't start a new run to suggest that someone else does.
Anyway, I think a poison javazon might do pretty good. 4 points critical strike, 17points poison javalin. (kill radament for extra point). Does anybody know how the poison damage per second works (psn java at lvl 17 does 1750-1953 over 40 seconds so is the equation for how much damage is dealt per second linear like it is when a monster does poison damage to you or does it do less damage in the first 20 seconds and more in the last 20 to make you wait for the damage?) I hope you get what I am trying to ask.

I don't think the monsters' effects reset if you leave the area (except to town) but if you are more that a few screens away when they die you will gain no experience. Waiting in the area for 20 seconds (which should be long enough to kill a great number of monsters with it) is not desirable.

Radament takes too long, as the sewers are cramped and you'll have to go through a large number of fights (it's best to avoid these as places like the Maggot Lair and Sanctuary are required and just as bad). If the build is depending on one skill point, that's not a good situation.

[quote]But I lost all my high level characters when my brothers comp crashed (mainly the lvl 90 zon) and in 1.10 and 1.11 it is sooooooo hard to beat hell without help from other people with uber leet gear.[/quote]
Ehh, depends on the character.  My necromancer beat Hell with no equipment of consequence except the 'Ume's Lament' Grim Wand and a 'Rhyme' Shield (everything else was MF and Faster Run/Walk).  Though Barbarians in Hell are not a simple task.
[quote]I suppose this should be in a new thread, but as I have no plans to do the run I won't start a new run to suggest that someone else does.
Anyway, I think a poison javazon might do pretty good.  4 points critical strike, 17points poison javalin.  (kill radament for extra point).  Does anybody know how the poison damage per second works (psn java at lvl 17 does 1750-1953 over 40 seconds so is the equation for how much damage is dealt per second linear like it is when a monster does poison damage to you or does it do less damage in the first 20 seconds and more in the last 20 to make you wait for the damage?) I hope you get what I am trying to ask.[/quote]
I don't think the monsters' effects reset if you leave the area (except to town) but if you are more that a few screens away when they die you will gain no experience.  Waiting in the area for 20 seconds (which should be long enough to kill a great number of monsters with it) is not desirable.

Radament takes too long, as the sewers are cramped and you'll have to go through a large number of fights (it's best to avoid these as places like the Maggot Lair and Sanctuary are required and just as bad).  If the build is depending on one skill point, that's not a good situation.

Siyko

2005-08-12 12:53:37 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

the sewers are cramped and you'll have to go through a large number of fights

if this is a bad thing, the build is in big trouble

Mkt2015

2005-08-12 01:23:07 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Considering narrow passageways and whatnot...I think the best way would be to have a wolf druid for boss fights/narrow passages and elemental druid for crowd control. Where to put all of the skill points I still do not know...but I do know that at a low level I was able to go 1 on 1 with duriel with just hunger.

Siyko

2005-08-12 02:27:42 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

quasi-narrow passages like the sewers (narrow would be maggot, arcane) are an optimal place for the elemental druid. Crowd control is easily doable, molten boulder is great, and you can't get surrounded. Problem is all the fire resist archers, who will tear through nearly any build, and take a while to kill with a fire build.

Sewers can be unnecesary, but it is an optimal exp place at that level.

jimsfriend

2005-08-12 03:29:43 am

Like A Fox

The build does not rely on Radament, and I was just throwing an idea out there (since AlakazaM dropped out of his run).

And about finishing Hell since the new patches, maybe I just suck :-/

Anyway, my dad is working on a blizzard sorc that looks like it could be promising.

spineshark

2005-08-12 06:11:04 am

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

Quote:

the sewers are cramped and you'll have to go through a large number of fights

if this is a bad thing, the build is in big trouble

Well, what I'm saying is that I personally hate fights in the sewers (and maggot lair) and certainly wouldn't put the sewers in my run. Obviously since the run is segmented you don't have to worry about your fire trapper meeting the Fire Enchanted guy that takes three minutes to kill. Still, I personally prefer more open areas for lots of kills. Plus, all the poison down there is just another thing that I see as better to avoid. There's already one horrid, small, poison filled, dangerous place in Act II.

At least you don't have to kill Creeping Feature. That punk.

Mkt2015

2005-08-14 12:47:11 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Since alaka-whatever dropped his druid run, I've been very interested in it. Unfortunately I'm much more of a leisure D2 player than others...having played mostly single player and barely ever playing it online.

I would definitely do all of the quests...since no one has done them so far...but I have three questions:

1. would all quests completed be considered 100% or would there have to be something else done?

2. I know a lot about the druid but how would I allocate skill points? Should I put points into wind or fire and how many? This might sound like I'm a newb....but I just want to know if people think something should have only 2 points or 5.

3. How is the map stuff accomplished? Do you start a new character and then as soon as the game is loaded you quickly exit and copy --> paste the maps...or is there some other way?

rooster

2005-08-14 12:51:24 am

Cute and Cuddly Lemming

Yeah, I've been trying to get LoD somewhere on the net to try a speedrnu too. And my favorite char ever was the Druid, only thing is, i like werewolve Dr00ds, and they wouldn't stand a chance against Diablo in Act 4. Not at all.

So my second choice would maybe be a Barb. Or an Amazone. I'll see, in 6 hours my downloads are finished Cheesy

Gorash

2005-08-14 02:03:33 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Quote:

Since alaka-whatever dropped his druid run, I've been very interested in it. Unfortunately I'm much more of a leisure D2 player than others...having played mostly single player and barely ever playing it online.

I would definitely do all of the quests...since no one has done them so far...but I have three questions:

1. would all quests completed be considered 100% or would there have to be something else done?

2. I know a lot about the druid but how would I allocate skill points? Should I put points into wind or fire and how many? This might sound like I'm a newb....but I just want to know if people think something should have only 2 points or 5.

3. How is the map stuff accomplished? Do you start a new character and then as soon as the game is loaded you quickly exit and copy --> paste the maps...or is there some other way?

I knew marsh would run annthing not nailed down but now I'm impressed.

About your questions:
1. I think 100% will be all quests. No cow level since you'd had to restart the game, and the quest isn't shown anywhere either.

2. Difficult, because all of the druids spells are flawed in one or the other way. Either molten boulder or fissure as main spell, the main spell should get as much points as you can put into it. Personally since you have 4 points more in 100% you can put at least 1 point into oak sage. I'd personally put the all of the rest into firestorm. Dire wolfs seemed a good idea at first, but to put fissure into effect you need moving monster and blocker are counterprocuctive there.

Should total you at lv21 with:
- firestorm 12 = 182 - 210 (ø196)
- molten boulder 1
- oak sage 1
- fissure 10 = 197 - 222 (ø209.5)

Alternatively you can max firestorm for damage:
- firestorm 15 = 196 - 229 (ø213)
- molten boulder 1
- oak sage 1
- fissure 7 = 142 - 170 (ø156.5)

3. At least the sorc does it the way:
- create char
- exit game
- backup save files

Marsh did the first segment without knowing the map but after that, backup your save everytime you finish a segment.

[quote]Since alaka-whatever dropped his druid run, I've been very interested in it. Unfortunately I'm much more of a leisure D2 player than others...having played mostly single player and barely ever playing it online.

I would definitely do all of the quests...since no one has done them so far...but I have three questions:

1. would all quests completed be considered 100% or would there have to be something else done?

2. I know a lot about the druid but how would I allocate skill points? Should I put points into wind or fire and how many? This might sound like I'm a newb....but I just want to know if people think something should have only 2 points or 5.

3. How is the map stuff accomplished? Do you start a new character and then as soon as the game is loaded you quickly exit and copy --> paste the maps...or is there some other way?[/quote]

I knew marsh would run annthing not nailed down but now I'm impressed.

About your questions:
1. I think 100% will be all quests. No cow level since you'd had to restart the game, and the quest isn't shown anywhere either.

2. Difficult, because all of the druids spells are flawed in one or the other way. Either molten boulder or fissure as main spell, the main spell should get as much points as you can put into it. Personally since you have 4 points more in 100% you can put at least 1 point into oak sage. I'd personally put the all of the rest into firestorm. Dire wolfs seemed a good idea at first, but to put fissure into effect you need moving monster and blocker are counterprocuctive there.

Should total you at lv21 with:
- firestorm 12  =  182 - 210 (ø196)
- molten boulder 1
- oak sage 1
- fissure 10  =  197 - 222 (ø209.5)

Alternatively you can max firestorm for damage:
- firestorm 15  =  196 - 229 (ø213)
- molten boulder 1
- oak sage 1
- fissure 7  =  142 - 170 (ø156.5)

3. At least the sorc does it the way:
- create char
- exit game
- backup save files

Marsh did the first segment without knowing the map  but after that, backup your save everytime you finish a segment.

rooster

2005-08-14 03:03:14 pm

Cute and Cuddly Lemming

I don't get that backup stuff yet.

Why don't we just run and do it to a random map. Makes the difficulty worse!

Gorash

2005-08-14 06:40:14 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

A couple of things Rooster:
1. A run over 2 hours in one sitting is incredible hard, and long, and to record it in one sitting you'll need around 150GB of free space.
2. The solution to the abovementioned is either complicated hooking PC into VCR or doing it segmented.
3. Since in Diablo2 Single Player the map stays the same if you do segments, the map would be known to the runner by the second try anyway, so any runner just omit the first iteration and starts with known map. Not only gets the run faster, it's not as boring to watch.
4. To play a segment a few times you'll have to backup your save game.

So, yes you can single segment Diablo2, but due to randomness it will be another hour longer, and recording it is not as easy as just firing up fraps.

Any further questions?

rooster

2005-08-14 10:30:10 pm

Cute and Cuddly Lemming

Quote:

so any runner just omit the first iteration and starts with known map.

So what we do is make the char, explore a little bit and then go again for real? Cheap Tongue

but a good idea.

Mkt2015

2005-08-15 01:27:30 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

So I guess you wouldn't recommend a wolf druid, eh? I've never played an elemental druid...unless you count a one point in each wind until I was level 30 and then went hurricane ;D. And then as soon as 1.10 came out I put points into the others.

Gorash

2005-08-15 03:00:35 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Yeah you know what keeps melee chars unsuitable for this thing...

Lack of level -> lack of status points -> lack of HP AND lack of AR AND lack of strength to carry better equipment.

But this is definitely possible....
200 dam for just 4 mana is very good. It's not even worse than the traps of the assassin. You'll need a little more control to actively cast your spells, but you'll save a ton of mana, and put more points into vitality.

And now you've got an excellent excuse to play new builds Wink

rooster

2005-08-15 04:49:55 pm

Cute and Cuddly Lemming

Quote:

So I guess you wouldn't recommend a wolf druid, eh?

I've played were-bear/-wolf druids alot. And always had a problem beating Diablo, even with level 25. So no, I wouldn't recommend Werewolf druids. But what would make it worthwhile is the increased running speed of a werewolf druid. Maybe someone with more skill than me should try it?

Mikelikesoccer

2005-08-15 05:14:08 pm

KratosJudgment

I want to see how fast I can beat this.... One thing is there a way to record this other then a vcr hook up to your cpu? I want to try and just have it put in my diablo 2 folder or another folder is there a way that doesn't cost any money?

StuporMan

2005-08-15 05:41:18 pm

Stupor is as Stupor Does

Gorash, to continue the discussion about a 100% completion run of Normal from the General forum:

All right Gorash, it appears the actual times for the extra quest segments most likely is contained somewhere between our two numbers.

As to the mass of enemies at the forge. Yes you will have to clear out some of the monsters at the forge. However, I often find I get lucky with the guy with the hammer running out ahead of the other enemies in the area. once he is away from his helpers he is not very difficult. Then you do not have to worry about stopping to kill anything in the mass of monsters and can switch weapons, teleport in, click on the forge twice, then teleport out. It probably will take a bit longer than my original estimate, but not by a large amount. However, as I stated in the General Thread, I assumed sorceress not Druid.

Hopefully the hammer is one of the items that comes pre-identified in 1.10 as this will save a couple of seconds.

As to Shenk,

Yes you can get to him along the way, however, I find you can kill him much faster and with a whole lot less randomness if you attack from behind. You can get to him through his minions a whole lot faster that way. This can still be done on the way, but for ease I suggested using the waypoint. Either way, not much loss of time, but my 30 second victory time is probably a bit ambitious target and would rely too much on luck management.

As to Nilathak, it has been a while since I have killed him, so I may no be remembering right, but I thought you could get close enough to static him. He does like teleporting around, but it should still work and just be a bit slower. This is the quest I am most unsure of, since I do not think I have even fought him on 1.10. I still think 10 minutes to be high, but testing will make all of these much more clear.

As to your timing, I believe lvl 18-19 to be a good choice for running the sidequests. This gives you access to teleport (assuming a sorceress) and you should be able to complete all the quests reasonably fast. My assumption of the extra quest runs being a seperate segment after the Ancients was mainly to make sure that you had teleport and sufficient mana and killing power to complete these at the greatest possible speed. The timing of many of these quests gets greatly reduced as teleport enters the equation as it opens many options into killing much fewer enemies than normally would be required.

Another thought is that you may want to consider investing in an crowd control spell should you wish to do a 100% run. The den of evil especially could be reduced in time to complete by being able to kill multiple weak enemies quickly. For the lightning sorc, a single point in chain lightning should be sufficient for this. Nova is also a good choice. But you might have another preference.

StuporMan

Gorash, to continue the discussion about a 100% completion run of Normal from the General forum:

All right Gorash, it appears the actual times for the extra quest segments most likely is contained somewhere between our two numbers.

As to the mass of enemies at the forge.  Yes you will have to clear out some of the monsters at the forge.  However, I often find I get lucky with the guy with the hammer running out ahead of the other enemies in the area.  once he is away from his helpers he is not very difficult. Then you do not have to worry about stopping to kill anything in the mass of monsters and can switch weapons, teleport in, click on the forge twice, then teleport out.   It probably will take a bit longer than my original estimate, but not by a large amount. However, as I stated in the General Thread, I assumed sorceress not Druid.

Hopefully the hammer is one of the items that comes pre-identified in 1.10 as this will save a couple of seconds.
 
As to Shenk,

Yes you can get to him along the way, however, I find you can kill him much faster and with a whole lot less randomness if you attack from behind.  You can get to him through his minions a whole lot faster that way.  This can still be done on the way, but for ease I suggested using the waypoint.  Either way, not much loss of time, but my 30 second victory time is probably a bit ambitious target and would rely too much on luck management.
 
As to Nilathak, it has been a while since I have killed him, so I may no be remembering right, but I thought you could get close enough to static him. He does like teleporting around, but it should still work and just be a bit slower. This is the quest I am most unsure of, since I do not think I have even fought him on 1.10.  I still think 10 minutes to be high, but testing will make all of these much more clear.

As to your timing, I believe lvl 18-19 to be a good choice for running the sidequests.  This gives you access to teleport (assuming a sorceress) and you should be able to complete all the quests reasonably fast.  My assumption of the extra quest runs being a seperate segment after the Ancients was mainly to make sure that you had teleport and sufficient mana and killing power to complete these at the greatest possible speed.  The timing of many of these quests gets greatly reduced as teleport enters the equation as it opens many options into killing much fewer enemies than normally would be required.

Another thought is that you may want to consider investing in an crowd control spell should you wish to do a 100% run.  The den of evil especially could be reduced in time to complete by being able to kill multiple weak enemies quickly.  For the lightning sorc, a single point in chain lightning should be sufficient for this.  Nova is also a good choice. But you might have another preference.

StuporMan

Gorash

2005-08-15 06:41:17 pm

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

As for teleporting into Nilathaks minions as well as teleporting in any other crowd past act3:
A lv20 sorc without equip will have no chance whatsoever to evade the melee attacks there, meaning you'll get hopelessly trapped in hit recovery. I admit I haven't watched the sorc run yet (archive gave me a dl speed of 5kb/s and I haven't gotten myself to start it again since), but I'd highly amazed if the sorc there teleports into crowds.

For the den of evil a single point into frost nova will suffice I think. Could be the Radament point.

jimsfriend

2005-08-15 06:57:22 pm

Like A Fox

Single point into frost nova does 2-4 dmg and cost 9 mana. Zombies have 7-12 life. Nova level 1 does 1-20 damage and costs 15 mana. If you had something that did +1 to nova (maybe a staff or orb) you would do 7-28 damage for 16 mana. +1 point to frost nova only increases the damage to 4-6 for a cost of 10 mana. The only monster in the den of evil that can die from one hit by frost nova is fallen, and then only sometimes. Most will take 3-4 hits (30ish mana). Nova should only take 1-2 hits (unless you are really unlucky) and with +1 to nova from staff or orb you should kill most monsters in 1 hit, maybe 2 (again for 30 mana). Personally, I would go with Nova. It will eat your mana quicker (2 casts instead of 4) but it will also kill quicker.

StuporMan

2005-08-15 07:00:17 pm

Stupor is as Stupor Does

Ahh, yes! I had forgotten about having only the bare minimum in armor. That will definitly make things a bit more dicey for the Nilathak and the Hellforge quests. I guess these will need to be full clears instead of kill the boss and run. Hmm, that will definitely cost quite a bit of time. If I have a chance I might have a go at attempting this type of run or experiment with a level 19 or so sorceress with minimum equipment in some of these areas, but I am not expecting to be able to do so any time soon.

StuporMan

Mkt2015

2005-08-15 11:08:07 pm

MGS for PS1 forever.

It's amazing that Duriel goes down in like 5 seconds. Mephisto takes a little bit longer...and Diablo is done is amazing time. Is it simply because you are using spells other than just attacking? I wonder about this cause it's not in the comments.... Angry

I understand the whole cold merc thing...but could you explain each boss fight a bit....unless it's just a matter of killing with spells instead of hitting with fists.

Gorash

Edit history:

Gorash: 2005-08-16 01:33:35 am

2005-08-16 01:10:19 am

${$uid.$user}{' usertext'}

Well it's not my run, Siyko could explain even better, but since he hasn't been around some time...

I watched the ones I already had on my disk.

Andariel is what you'd expect. Use an antidote, static her down to a reasonable amount and finish her off with your main spell. Fire spells would have speeded that up even more but Siyko used a lightning build.

Duriel is a really good job of blocking from the merc. The trick here is the cold resist potion given to both merc and sorc. With that Duriel does still plenty of damage but he compensates it with potions. While Duriel is busy he's fresh meat.

Mephisto:
Mostly insane luck that Mephisto didn't blow her out. Mephisto is very random... when I was with my 8pl Asn there I had everything from death at the first spell to a perfect fight in which even the merc survived. The strategy has to be: sacrifice the merc to static him down, then try to dodge his spells in mid range combat. His AI is pretty much the same, he will stay at mid range. He'll even try to evade your shots as you will dodge his, so this takes a bit of practice. (I know this because I did my Mephisto runs with an Orb sorc rather than abusing the AI meteor bug.)

Diablo:
Again lucky to place the statics while Diablo targets the merc. As seen later Diablo is able to knock out the merc in one hit, no matter how many potions you give him. After that it's pretty much the same as Mephisto, only you have to know the angle you have to run in case of red lightning hose, and you need a few healing pots because dodging the fire nova is pure luck.

I'll watch Baal tomorrow.

@jimsfriend:
You're right, Frost Nova isn't optimal...
I still had monster hp values pre1.10 in mind. Roll Eyes

Anyway, a sorc lighting build will likely just need 1-2 charged bolts to mow everything down.

Well it's not my run, Siyko could explain even better, but since he hasn't been around some time...

I watched the ones I already had on my disk.

Andariel is what you'd expect. Use an antidote, static her down to a reasonable amount and finish her off with your main spell. Fire spells would have speeded that up even more but Siyko used a lightning build.

Duriel is a really good job of blocking from the merc. The trick here is the cold resist potion given to both merc and sorc. With that Duriel does still plenty of damage but he compensates it with potions. While Duriel is busy he's fresh meat.

Mephisto:
Mostly insane luck that Mephisto didn't blow her out. Mephisto is very random... when I was with my 8pl Asn there I had everything from death at the first spell to a perfect fight in which even the merc survived. The strategy has to be: sacrifice the merc to static him down, then try to dodge his spells in mid range combat. His AI is pretty much the same, he will stay at mid range. He'll even try to evade your shots as you will dodge his, so this takes a bit of practice. (I know this because I did my Mephisto runs with an Orb sorc rather than abusing the AI meteor bug.)

Diablo:
Again lucky to place the statics while Diablo targets the merc. As seen later Diablo is able to knock out the merc in one hit, no matter how many potions you give him. After that it's pretty much the same as Mephisto, only you have to know the angle you have to run in case of red lightning hose, and you need a few healing pots because dodging the fire nova is pure luck.

I'll watch Baal tomorrow.

@jimsfriend:
You're right, Frost Nova isn't optimal...
I still had monster hp values pre1.10 in mind.   ::)
Anyway, a sorc lighting build will likely just need 1-2 charged bolts to mow everything down.