Diablo 2 (again) - regarding the Barbarian

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-29 12:26:03 am

2007-06-29 12:25:34 am

Never give up!

Okay, I think there was one topic about this character in Diablo 2 but I'm not sure how much it actually established as far as strategy. And Zurreco seemed to have the Paladin, my other choice, well in hand. So I'm going to try to come up with stuff here.

Since most of the stuff regarding the game can be gleaned from discussions on the other character classes, I'm mainly going to discuss stats and skill points. I'll start with skill points because that will affect stats.

Skill Points:

Warcries - In this list I can see only two things that would have any use at all. These are Howl and Find Potion. If Howl works as well in Act 4 as in Act 1, this would immensely help in the Chaos Sanctuary, but until I test that, this would mainly be for if you get mobbed in certain parts of the first two acts. Find Potion would be less about getting potions for recovery and more about preventing revival of monsters in very stiff situations. Neither one should need more than one point.

Combat Skills - Bash is helpful in single combat, at least until Double Swing really gets going. Leap is also important, and while the skill becomes mostly defunct when Leap Attack comes into play, it synergizes with the skill that beats it. Just remember that Double Swing remains useful for normal combat, due to reduced mana cost. I dunno about Concentrate, and with the wide array of stuff the Barbarian gets, Concentrate may be insufficient (Leap Attack easily outstrips Concentrate for Attack Rating bonus by rank 4).

Combat Masteries - Now's the hard part. I personally believe polearms, thrown weapons, and spears are right out due to requirements for them (I'm open to interpretation on this matter though). Which leaves the question of whether the sword, axe, or mace is the best weapon to pursue. The most likely 1-handed sword (Falchion) is slightly more damaging and has a lower strength requirement, but the most likely mace (Morning Star) does better against undead enemies (unlike the original Diablo, you can meet undead all the way to the end in Diablo 2) and I believe it's a slightly faster weapon as well. For our argument I am going to choose the sword.

Stats:

-Strength only needs a few more points - 3 to be exact - for us to use the sword we want. If we go with the mace option we need 6 points in Strength.
-Energy isn't even being examined - the Barbarian gets 1 Mana per point of Energy, and it would be wiser to get an item that grants a bonus to mana or, even better, one that grants mana restoration per kill.
-We actually don't need much Vitality - Barbarians get a whopping 4 Life for each point in Vitality. So we could probably put a few levels' worth in Vitality early and enjoy the benefits for a LONG time.
-Dexterity is where it'd be at for the Barbarian. With Strength, Energy, and Vitality being just fine at pretty low levels, we can pour points in here easily to increase our hit chances. Combined with Double Swing/Leap Attack and our mastery of choice, we should be able to at least keep up with monsters for a while.

Other Notes:
-I don't expect the Barbarian to be able to do it at only level 21, but he can probably end with a lower level than the Paladin.

Will come up with more later, but feel free to comment.

Thread title:

Okay, I think there was one topic about this character in Diablo 2 but I'm not sure how much it actually established as far as strategy.  And Zurreco seemed to have the Paladin, my other choice, well in hand.  So I'm going to try to come up with stuff here.

Since most of the stuff regarding the game can be gleaned from discussions on the other character classes, I'm mainly going to discuss stats and skill points.  I'll start with skill points because that will affect stats.

[u][b]Skill Points:[/b][/u]

Warcries - In this list I can see only two things that would have any use at all.  These are Howl and Find Potion.  If Howl works as well in Act 4 as in Act 1, this would immensely help in the Chaos Sanctuary, but until I test that, this would mainly be for if you get mobbed in certain parts of the first two acts.  Find Potion would be less about getting potions for recovery and more about preventing revival of monsters in very stiff situations.  Neither one should need more than one point.

Combat Skills - Bash is helpful in single combat, at least until Double Swing really gets going.  Leap is also important, and while the skill becomes mostly defunct when Leap Attack comes into play, it synergizes with the skill that beats it.  Just remember that Double Swing remains useful for normal combat, due to reduced mana cost.  I dunno about Concentrate, and with the wide array of stuff the Barbarian gets, Concentrate may be insufficient (Leap Attack easily outstrips Concentrate for Attack Rating bonus by rank 4).

Combat Masteries - Now's the hard part.  I personally believe polearms, thrown weapons, and spears are right out due to requirements for them (I'm open to interpretation on this matter though).  Which leaves the question of whether the sword, axe, or mace is the best weapon to pursue.  The most likely 1-handed sword (Falchion) is slightly more damaging and has a lower strength requirement, but the most likely mace (Morning Star) does better against undead enemies (unlike the original Diablo, you can meet undead all the way to the end in Diablo 2) and I believe it's a slightly faster weapon as well.  For our argument I am going to choose the sword.

[u][b]Stats:[/b][/u]

-Strength only needs a few more points - 3 to be exact - for us to use the sword we want.  If we go with the mace option we need 6 points in Strength.
-Energy isn't even being examined - the Barbarian gets 1 Mana per point of Energy, and it would be wiser to get an item that grants a bonus to mana or, even better, one that grants mana restoration per kill.
-We actually don't need much Vitality - Barbarians get a whopping 4 Life for each point in Vitality.  So we could probably put a few levels' worth in Vitality early and enjoy the benefits for a LONG time.
-Dexterity is where it'd be at for the Barbarian.  With Strength, Energy, and Vitality being just fine at pretty low levels, we can pour points in here easily to increase our hit chances.  Combined with Double Swing/Leap Attack and our mastery of choice, we should be able to at least keep up with monsters for a while.

[u][b]Other Notes:[/b][/u]
-I don't expect the Barbarian to be able to do it at only level 21, but he can probably end with a lower level than the Paladin.

Will come up with more later, but feel free to comment.

getter77

2007-06-29 01:24:50 am

100% runs=great to watch

-Well, Bash does synergize with Double Swing, so there's that.

-I agree with the utility value of Find Potion. Should a person feel very bold in an obsession to make this run as quick as possible, I'd also say Find Item could help them come up with the goods drop wise.

-Since you don't have any Auras at play, I'm not really sure what would be the best Merc wise. Perhaps Defiance? With the crazy AR/Dex you are envisioning, BA or a Rogue seem a bit redundant, and dual wielding would already leave ya hungering for def since blocking is out.

-Either Sword or Mace could work well....really it will come down to what specific weapons you aim to find/settle to find.

-Dunno about the Low Vit plan considering the shape your resists might be in towards the dicier elemental moments. Your AR might well be solvent with less Dex than one might think considering the many multipliers factoring into the skills you'll be using and En won't do much. IF there was no concern as to getting beat to death based upon the EQ you'd use...technically pumping Str would make the most sense considering each point into it increases overall damage by 1% IIRC to the aim of killing stuff in melee that much faster.

-Well, Bash does synergize with Double Swing, so there's that.

-I agree with the utility value of Find Potion.  Should a person feel very bold in an obsession to make this run as quick as possible, I'd also say Find Item could help them come up with the goods drop wise.

-Since you don't have any Auras at play, I'm not really sure what would be the best Merc wise.  Perhaps Defiance?  With the crazy AR/Dex you are envisioning, BA or a Rogue seem a bit redundant, and dual wielding would already leave ya hungering for def since blocking is out.

-Either Sword or Mace could work well....really it will come down to what specific weapons you aim to find/settle to find.

-Dunno about the Low Vit plan considering the shape your resists might be in towards the dicier elemental moments.  Your AR might well be solvent with less Dex than one might think considering the many multipliers factoring into the skills you'll be using and En won't do much.  IF there was no concern as to getting beat to death based upon the EQ you'd use...technically pumping Str would make the most sense considering each point into it increases overall damage by 1% IIRC to the aim of killing stuff in melee that much faster.

Siyko

2007-06-29 01:58:51 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

I think BA is an absolute must - at level 21, even if you dumped the majority of your points into Dex, your chance to hit baal is going to suck

Math:
Chance to Hit: 100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)
AR = Attack Rating; alvl = Level of Attacker; dlvl = Level of Defender; DR = Defense Rating

AR= (Dex * 5) - 35 + ClassBonus (20 for barb)

alvl = 21, DR = 313, dlvl = 60,

If you put ALL your points into dex (ridiculous), you get 20(barbs start with 20 dex iirc?)+20x5=120 dex

AR = 585

Chance to Hit: 100 * 585 / (585 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60)
=
33%

I think this will definetly be the limiting factor.

Does a barb have any 'no miss' abilities?

Katiz

2007-06-29 02:07:12 am

"Does a barb have any 'no miss' abilities?"

Concentrate

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-29 03:00:28 am

2007-06-29 02:14:01 am

Never give up!

I thought Concentrate was 'no interrupt'. It has an Attack Rating boost so it can't be 'no miss'.

Edit: I'm going to try to see if I can use this formula correctly.

Let's try it using Leap Attack at rank 4. Let's also suppose that I put 15 levels' worth of stat points into Dexterity (75 Dex, plus the 20 a Barbarian starts with, would be 95 Dex), instead of everything - basically a more realistic number than putting ALL points into Dexterity.

95 times 5 (475) minus 35 (440) plus class bonus of 20 equals 460. With Leap Attack level 4, that's 460 * 1.95, which equals 897.

Now, assuming no other AR modifiers, we have this:

100 * 897 / (897 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60)

which now goes to....

100 * 0.741322.... (there's more to it which goes into my calculations but it's at least 15 digits) * 2 * 0.259259.... (it repeats)

By doing this I wind up with.... about 38%. I'm not sure how much that Blessed Aim merc can actually HELP at this rate. I think we HAVE to go above level 21 for this, though I should note that level 24 and all other things equal would only increase hit chance by about 4%.

Let's try this formula with Diablo now, using level 20, Leap Attack at rank 3, and still 15 levels' worth of points into Dexterity. AR would be 460 * 1.8 this time, meaning a result of 828.

Diablo has a DR of 208 and a level of 40.

So the formula would be:

100 * 828 / (828 + 208) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40)

which would become:

100 * 0.7992277.... (repeating after the first 8) * 2 * 1/3

With Leap Attack rank 3, my chance of hitting Diablo is.... about 53%. We might want to gain our extra levels BEFORE fighting Diablo at this rate.

Gonna do one more test to determine where the levels need to be built. This one's with Mephisto, using the same AR formula as with Diablo.

Mephisto has 193 defense and is level 26.

This makes the formula become:

100 * 828 / (828 + 193) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26)

which in turn leads to:

100 * 0.8109696.... (more numbers follow, no repeat) * 2 * 0.4468085..... (not repeating)

This makes our hit chance with Leap Attack against Mephisto be..... 70%. Considering it's LEAP ATTACK, which drains mana too fast to use constantly, and the attack still isn't too reliable, we may want to gain all our levels before even fighting Mephisto. So most of our time plunked down is going to be in Act 3, not Act 1 as is usual.

I thought Concentrate was 'no interrupt'.  It has an Attack Rating boost so it can't be 'no miss'.

Edit: I'm going to try to see if I can use this formula correctly.

Let's try it using Leap Attack at rank 4.  Let's also suppose that I put 15 levels' worth of stat points into Dexterity (75 Dex, plus the 20 a Barbarian starts with, would be 95 Dex), instead of everything - basically a more realistic number than putting ALL points into Dexterity.

95 times 5 (475) minus 35 (440) plus class bonus of 20 equals 460.  With Leap Attack level 4, that's 460 * 1.95, which equals 897.

Now, assuming no other AR modifiers, we have this:

100 * 897 / (897 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60)

which now goes to....

100 * 0.741322.... (there's more to it which goes into my calculations but it's at least 15 digits) * 2 * 0.259259.... (it repeats)

By doing this I wind up with.... about 38%.  I'm not sure how much that Blessed Aim merc can actually HELP at this rate.  I think we HAVE to go above level 21 for this, though I should note that level 24 and all other things equal would only increase hit chance by about 4%.

Let's try this formula with Diablo now, using level 20, Leap Attack at rank 3, and still 15 levels' worth of points into Dexterity.  AR would be 460 * 1.8 this time, meaning a result of 828.

Diablo has a DR of 208 and a level of 40.

So the formula would be:

100 * 828 / (828 + 208) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40)

which would become:

100 * 0.7992277.... (repeating after the first 8) * 2 * 1/3

With Leap Attack rank 3, my chance of hitting Diablo is.... about 53%.  We might want to gain our extra levels BEFORE fighting Diablo at this rate.

Gonna do one more test to determine where the levels need to be built.  This one's with Mephisto, using the same AR formula as with Diablo.

Mephisto has 193 defense and is level 26.

This makes the formula become:

100 * 828 / (828 + 193) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26)

which in turn leads to:

100 * 0.8109696.... (more numbers follow, no repeat) * 2 * 0.4468085..... (not repeating)

This makes our hit chance with Leap Attack against Mephisto be..... 70%.  Considering it's LEAP ATTACK, which drains mana too fast to use constantly, and the attack still isn't too reliable, we may want to gain all our levels before even fighting Mephisto.  So most of our time plunked down is going to be in Act 3, not Act 1 as is usual.

Siyko

2007-06-29 02:58:26 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Conc is definetly not no-miss, I had my level 92 HC conc barb wearing the angelic ammy + ring for the disgusting AR it gives

When calculating blessed aim, remember that the +% to AR is added together. So if BA gave +100% and Leap attack gave +100%, you wouldn't have a total of x4 AR, you'd have x3.

Whether or not the BA 'fixes' the AR problem a barb hits, this IS a problem, and it DOES help. I am confident it blows away any other merc you might get, even it it doesn't totally fix your %hit.

Leap attack... not only does it need a lot of mana, but it's slow, you're vulnerable at the end of it, and you have to run away after casting it (defense is 1/2 while running, chance to block is 0% while running), so I think that's out.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-29 03:19:07 am

2007-06-29 03:13:01 am

Never give up!

Yeah.... I've determined another way of getting insane damage would be better than Leap Attack (and you could just use Leap to get to the enemy to do this).

Let's try Concentrate level 4 and Sword Mastery level 5, along with the same previous stuff (level 21, 95 Dex). AR in this case would be 460 * (1 + .9 + .6), or 460 * 2.5, or 1150.

I'm not going to try this with everyone - just Baal.

100 * 1150 / (1150 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60)

This becomes:

100 * 0.786056..... (non-repeating) * 2 * 0.259259.... (repeating)

Which results in..... roughly 41%. I don't know what a Blessed Aim merc would grant at that level, so I didn't factor that in. I also opted not to factor in equipment since we'd have no idea.

Thinking of all this, I've determined that maybe putting points in Double Swing isn't all that necessary. Bash (which would become our primary early skill, with Howl helping alleviate the crowds) synergizes with Concentrate as well, and we can use the extra points for Sword Mastery to increase our AR, normal damage, and critical chance. If we went this route and wanted a 2-handed weapon (instead of a shield), we'd pretty much HAVE to go with swords, and we'd need to spend 17 points to get a decent one. So unfortunately, our Dexterity might suffer a bit.

We have 12 points to work with basically (I've already reserved 4 for Leap, Howl, Stun, and Find Potion, and reserved 4 for Concentrate), and a number of ways to test it. One point has to go into Bash, but other than that we have leeway with what we can do. We may be able to take the point from Find Potion, but nothing else. (Though we may need more points in Leap if we find that important barriers in places like Arcane Sanctuary can't be jumped at rank 1.)

Yeah.... I've determined another way of getting insane damage would be better than Leap Attack (and you could just use Leap to get to the enemy to do this).

Let's try Concentrate level 4 and Sword Mastery level 5, along with the same previous stuff (level 21, 95 Dex).  AR in this case would be 460 * (1 + .9 + .6), or 460 * 2.5, or 1150.

I'm not going to try this with everyone - just Baal.

100 * 1150 / (1150 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60)

This becomes:

100 * 0.786056..... (non-repeating) * 2 * 0.259259.... (repeating)

Which results in..... roughly 41%.  I don't know what a Blessed Aim merc would grant at that level, so I didn't factor that in.  I also opted not to factor in equipment since we'd have no idea.

Thinking of all this, I've determined that maybe putting points in Double Swing isn't all that necessary.  Bash (which would become our primary early skill, with Howl helping alleviate the crowds) synergizes with Concentrate as well, and we can use the extra points for Sword Mastery to increase our AR, normal damage, and critical chance.  If we went this route and wanted a 2-handed weapon (instead of a shield), we'd pretty much HAVE to go with swords, and we'd need to spend 17 points to get a decent one.  So unfortunately, our Dexterity might suffer a bit.

We have 12 points to work with basically (I've already reserved 4 for Leap, Howl, Stun, and Find Potion, and reserved 4 for Concentrate), and a number of ways to test it.  One point has to go into Bash, but other than that we have leeway with what we can do.  We may be able to take the point from Find Potion, but nothing else.  (Though we may need more points in Leap if we find that important barriers in places like Arcane Sanctuary can't be jumped at rank 1.)

Zurreco

2007-06-29 03:23:47 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

I would tell you to talk to Xaggoth, since he was planning out a good Barbarian build for normal, but you seem to have hit all the main points.

A Dual Swing Barb with FAS swords will raze anything, but I think it's also a great idea to find a shield with nice resists that you can alt-switch to whenever you know you are about to take the brunt of something. Aside from that, you should just tank the whole entire game fairly easily, so long as you keep your AR up (BA sounds good, I guess).

The great thing about Barbarians is that Leap Attack makes a lot of areas super easy to manipulate, especially since it maxes out jump distance at L1. Pretty much all of Act 2 and 3 will be cakewalks when you can hop over things to avoid danger.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-29 03:48:25 am

2007-06-29 03:40:43 am

Never give up!

Man, coming up with a Barbarian build is much harder than I thought.

If we go the Leap Attack route we're going to have to forgo putting many points in Bash. I've decided that we're going to forgo a lot of points in Bash anyway. Here's what I'm thinking so far, assuming just level 21:

-1 point in Howl
-1 point in Find Potion
-1 point in Bash
-1 point in Double Swing
-1 point in Leap
-4 points in Leap Attack OR Concentrate
-11(!) points in Sword Mastery

Points in Sword Mastery are chosen over points in Double Swing because putting points in Sword Mastery increases AR faster than points in Double Swing and points in Sword Mastery also help Leap Attack/Concentrate. If we ditch Find Potion that point goes into Sword Mastery.

Points for further levels should probably go into Leap Attack/Concentrate.

Zurreco

2007-06-29 06:44:45 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

Well, Leap Attack shouldn't really be used as a primary attack method. It should more or less be a flight method, or maybe to circumvent novas and whatnot. Put one point in to it for maximum mobility and then dump the rest in the Concentration.

Note that this build will really only work if you use VFAS swords, since you really need to put out speed and status effects as quickly as possible so as to avoid all damage intake. If you end up running around with a set of slow ass swords, you're going to spend more time getting chopped down and less time moving. Also keep in mind that if you shatter too many frozen enemies with a cold weapon, you're going to have a hard time using Find Potion a whole lot.

suga

2007-06-29 08:11:52 am

-Howl is useless. It doesn't work on monsters above your level so no use in later acts.
-There is a bug in dual-wielding that let you swing way faster than normal speed when combined a slow weapon with a fast weapon (which is explained here). Some of examples are Falchion [20] + Scimitar [-20] and War Hammer [20] + Flail [-10]. So I think sword is the beginning weapon, and mace is the end weapon. Your mastery choice will be mace since mastery doesn't do that much in low level.
-Double Swing is the main attack to go imo. Conc's too slow. Mana cost becomes 0 when it reaches level 9 so go for it.
-Don't forget about Battle Cry: -Defence, -Damage, it's great skill for bosses.

Faskalia

2007-06-29 10:11:28 am

Are you allowed to use / players 8 ?

It would make leveling up pretty fast, because if you stick to zombies you wont get overrun and you wont waste much time on finding your next victims.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-29 02:43:15 pm

2007-06-29 01:52:15 pm

Never give up!

Thanks for the info on that bug - the question becoming whether I'm willing to sacrifice the Dexterity to be able to use a War Hammer.

I'm still going to have to say no to putting more than one point in Double Swing. According to Arreat Summit, its REAL mana cost at rank 1 is just 1 Mana. It takes 8 points to bring it to 0 Mana. And those eight points make the AR bonus go from 15% to 55% - which means you added 40%. Now, let's look at masteries. Between rank 1 and rank 9 of Mace Mastery, you go from 28% to 92% - you added 64% here, and there's also a damage bonus that's not inherent to Double Swing. The bonuses for masteries and for Double Swing grow at constant rates so the difference is even bigger at higher levels. I'm sorry, a reduced mana cost of 1 is not enough to justify losing both the AR bonus and the skill points. You can make up for the lost mana with something like a Triumphant item, and even if you can't, stocking mana potions in earlier acts for this kind of thing shouldn't be an issue.

I'm not sure about Battle Cry either. Seeing how Taunt is pretty much useless, that's wasting a skill point right there. I'm going to be doing calculations using the stats of Mephisto, Diablo, and Baal and see if there's any worth to Battle Cry with our new setup (level impacts hit chance WAY more than Defense, which is why I'm concerned).

Zurreco: I'll repeat what I said earlier:

Quote:

Find Potion would be less about getting potions for recovery and more about preventing revival of monsters in very stiff situations.

So if I find myself shattering tons of monsters in practice attempts, Find Potion becomes ENTIRELY unnecessary. I'm probably going to drop it seeing as I can use the point a little more wisely elsewhere.

Anyway, here's the certain part of a new setup:

-1 point in Bash
-1 point in Double Swing
-1 point in Leap
-1 point in Leap Attack (we can, after all, use it to escape)
-12 points in Mace Mastery

Now the uncertain part:
-1 point goes to either Find Potion or Bash.
-If Battle Cry is worth it, 3 points can be used to get Howl, Taunt, and Battle Cry.
-If Battle Cry is NOT worth it, those 3 points should go either into Bash or into Mace Mastery.

There's a couple instances where I pick Bash over Mace Mastery in this. Bash adds 10% damage per rank to Double Swing, while the damage boost for one point in a mastery is only 5%. I'm open to interpretation here, but with double-digit ranks in a mastery, shaving a couple of points off for some extra damage doesn't hurt.

And further points in a setup like this would probably go into Mace Mastery. (We have the potential of maxing Mace Mastery out here, and if we do and STILL have more points, THEN we put into Double Swing.)

Here's a revised statistics count:
-Strength: We need 53 if we're going the Mace route and using the Double Swing bug, so that's 23 points used.
-Energy: Still don't need to touch.
-Vitality: I still need this SOME, just not too much. 17 points here.
-Dexterity: I can't well do 75 this route, can I? I'm going to say 60 stat points here over the course of the run.

Results would be:
Strength: 53
Dexterity: 80
Vitality: 42
Energy: 10

As for when to build each stat? I say build Dexterity solely for the first 7 or 8 levels (not a lot of tough-requirements equipment that early) and then switch to Strength. Once Strength is done, resume building Dexterity. Build Vitality over the last few levels.

Any further levels can probably be split 3 and 2 between Dexterity and Vitality, unless we find higher Dexterity at that point insufficient for affecting hit chance, in which case we go all out on Vitality.

Thanks for the info on that bug - the question becoming whether I'm willing to sacrifice the Dexterity to be able to use a War Hammer.

I'm still going to have to say no to putting more than one point in Double Swing.  According to Arreat Summit, its REAL mana cost at rank 1 is just 1 Mana.  It takes 8 points to bring it to 0 Mana.  And those eight points make the AR bonus go from 15% to 55% - which means you added 40%.  Now, let's look at masteries.  Between rank 1 and rank 9 of Mace Mastery, you go from 28% to 92% - you added 64% here, and there's also a damage bonus that's not inherent to Double Swing.  The bonuses for masteries and for Double Swing grow at constant rates so the difference is even bigger at higher levels.  I'm sorry, a reduced mana cost of 1 is not enough to justify losing both the AR bonus and the skill points.  You can make up for the lost mana with something like a Triumphant item, and even if you can't, stocking mana potions in earlier acts for this kind of thing shouldn't be an issue.

I'm not sure about Battle Cry either.  Seeing how Taunt is pretty much useless, that's wasting a skill point right there.  I'm going to be doing calculations using the stats of Mephisto, Diablo, and Baal and see if there's any worth to Battle Cry with our new setup (level impacts hit chance WAY more than Defense, which is why I'm concerned).

Zurreco: I'll repeat what I said earlier:
[quote]Find Potion would be less about getting potions for recovery and more about preventing revival of monsters in very stiff situations. [/quote]

So if I find myself shattering tons of monsters in practice attempts, Find Potion becomes ENTIRELY unnecessary.  I'm probably going to drop it seeing as I can use the point a little more wisely elsewhere.

Anyway, here's the certain part of a new setup:

-1 point in Bash
-1 point in Double Swing
-1 point in Leap
-1 point in Leap Attack (we can, after all, use it to escape)
-12 points in Mace Mastery

Now the uncertain part:
-1 point goes to either Find Potion or Bash.
-If Battle Cry is worth it, 3 points can be used to get Howl, Taunt, and Battle Cry.
-If Battle Cry is NOT worth it, those 3 points should go either into Bash or into Mace Mastery.

There's a couple instances where I pick Bash over Mace Mastery in this.  Bash adds 10% damage per rank to Double Swing, while the damage boost for one point in a mastery is only 5%.  I'm open to interpretation here, but with double-digit ranks in a mastery, shaving a couple of points off for some extra damage doesn't hurt.

And further points in a setup like this would probably go into Mace Mastery.  (We have the potential of maxing Mace Mastery out here, and if we do and STILL have more points, THEN we put into Double Swing.)

Here's a revised statistics count:
-Strength: We need 53 if we're going the Mace route and using the Double Swing bug, so that's 23 points used.
-Energy: Still don't need to touch.
-Vitality: I still need this SOME, just not too much.  17 points here.
-Dexterity: I can't well do 75 this route, can I?  I'm going to say 60 stat points here over the course of the run.

Results would be:
Strength: 53
Dexterity: 80
Vitality: 42
Energy: 10

As for when to build each stat?  I say build Dexterity solely for the first 7 or 8 levels (not a lot of tough-requirements equipment that early) and then switch to Strength.  Once Strength is done, resume building Dexterity.  Build Vitality over the last few levels.

Any further levels can probably be split 3 and 2 between Dexterity and Vitality, unless we find higher Dexterity at that point insufficient for affecting hit chance, in which case we go all out on Vitality.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-29 04:11:10 pm

2007-06-29 02:58:41 pm

Never give up!

Figured I'd be smarter putting this in a separate post so I can demonstrate further with it later.

Time to try some math formulas with the certain parts of this setup, not factoring in mercs or equipment or anything like that. So both use Mace Mastery level 12, which is +116% AR, and both have 80 Dexterity.

Our base AR is (80 * 5) - 35 + ClassBonus (20 for barb) which works out to be 385.

With Leap Attack rank 1, that's 385 * (1 + 1.16 + .5), or 385 * 2.56, or roughly 986.
With Double Swing rank 1, it's 385 * (1 + 1.16 + .15), or 385 * 2.31, or about 889.

So the reduced Dexterity and narrower skill focus does hurt our AR a bit.

Now for the hit chance calculation. Remember:
=Mephisto has 193 DR and level 26.
=Diablo has 208 DR and level 40.
=Baal has 313 DR and level 60.
=For Mephisto and Baal, we're going -1 level, and just ignoring the skill and stat points lost.

Mephisto:
Leap Attack: 100 * 986 / (986 + 193) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26) = 73%
Double Swing: 100 * 889 / (889 + 193) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26) = 71%
Leap Attack w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 986 / (986 + 97) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26) = 79%
Double Swing w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 889 / (889 + 97) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26) = 78%

Diablo:
Leap Attack: 100 * 986 / (986 + 208) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = 55%
Double Swing: 100 * 889 / (889 + 208) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = 54%
Leap Attack w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 986 / (986 + 104) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = 60%
Double Swing w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 889 / (889 + 104) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = about 60%

Baal:
Leap Attack: 100 * 986 / (986 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 39%
Double Swing: 100 * 889 / (889 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 38%
Leap Attack w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 986 / (986 + 157) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 45%
Double Swing w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 889 / (889 + 157) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 44%

Oddly, Battle Cry increased our hit chances more than all our AR boosts combined.

Now let me determine maximum hit chances at low level against these bosses (which I'm doing by doubling the level portion of the equation):

Mephisto (fought at level 20): 87%
Diablo (fought at level 20): 66%
Baal (fought at level 21): 52%

For reference, fighting Baal at level 24 makes the maximum hit chance 57%.

I guess we can't ask for much more at this point. Further gobs of AR won't help.

Based on this, I probably WILL resort to Battle Cry against bosses.

Edit: Potential set items to look for:
-Berserker's Hauberk (specifically helps this character)
-Death's Hand (only if before Andariel)
-Hsarus's Iron Heel (helpful to any)
-Vidala's Fetlock (helpful to any)

Others just don't help us enough or are too high level. The one I'd REALLY like to know is how early Berserker's Hauberk can drop.

Figured I'd be smarter putting this in a separate post so I can demonstrate further with it later.

Time to try some math formulas with the certain parts of this setup, not factoring in mercs or equipment or anything like that.  So both use Mace Mastery level 12, which is +116% AR, and both have 80 Dexterity.

Our base AR is (80 * 5) - 35 + ClassBonus (20 for barb) which works out to be 385.

With Leap Attack rank 1, that's 385 * (1 + 1.16 + .5), or 385 * 2.56, or roughly 986.
With Double Swing rank 1, it's 385 * (1 + 1.16 + .15), or 385 * 2.31, or about 889.

So the reduced Dexterity and narrower skill focus does hurt our AR a bit.

Now for the hit chance calculation.  Remember:
=Mephisto has 193 DR and level 26.
=Diablo has 208 DR and level 40.
=Baal has 313 DR and level 60.
=For Mephisto and Baal, we're going -1 level, and just ignoring the skill and stat points lost.

Mephisto:
Leap Attack: 100 * 986 / (986 + 193) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26)  = 73%
Double Swing: 100 * 889 / (889 + 193) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26) = 71%
Leap Attack w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 986 / (986 + 97) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26) = 79%
Double Swing w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 889 / (889 + 97) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 26) = 78%

Diablo:
Leap Attack: 100 * 986 / (986 + 208) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = 55%
Double Swing: 100 * 889 / (889 + 208) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = 54%
Leap Attack w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 986 / (986 + 104) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = 60%
Double Swing w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 889 / (889 + 104) * 2 * 20 / (20 + 40) = about 60%

Baal:
Leap Attack: 100 * 986 / (986 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 39%
Double Swing: 100 * 889 / (889 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 38%
Leap Attack w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 986 / (986 + 157) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 45%
Double Swing w/ Battle Cry: 100 * 889 / (889 + 157) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 44%

Oddly, Battle Cry increased our hit chances more than all our AR boosts combined.

Now let me determine maximum hit chances at low level against these bosses (which I'm doing by doubling the level portion of the equation):

Mephisto (fought at level 20): 87%
Diablo (fought at level 20): 66%
Baal (fought at level 21): 52%

For reference, fighting Baal at level 24 makes the maximum hit chance 57%.

I guess we can't ask for much more at this point.  Further gobs of AR won't help.

Based on this, I probably WILL resort to Battle Cry against bosses.

Edit: Potential set items to look for:
-Berserker's Hauberk (specifically helps this character)
-Death's Hand (only if before Andariel)
-Hsarus's Iron Heel (helpful to any)
-Vidala's Fetlock (helpful to any)

Others just don't help us enough or are too high level.  The one I'd REALLY like to know is how early Berserker's Hauberk can drop.

Zurreco

2007-06-29 05:36:48 pm

Just call me the cynicism machine

Quote:

Are you allowed to use / players 8 ?

This comes up in every Diablo 2 thread. /players 8 is not allowed.

AquaTiger: I had no idea that Find Potion makes corpses not revivable. Learn something new in every thread, I guess. Still, how many instances are there were monsters will be revived too quickly to dispatch the leader? Since you won't really have such a hard time taking out Fallen Shamans or Mummies, I don't really see you using Find Potion for anything other than actually finding potions.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-30 03:52:55 am

2007-06-30 03:39:53 am

Never give up!

Well, I guess that cements it. I drop Find Potion at that rate.

Anyway, I've adjusted my skill point distribution a little. Here's how it pans out:

-Howl, Taunt, Battle Cry, Leap, Leap Attack, Double Swing, and Bash each get one guaranteed point.
-Mace Mastery gets 10 guaranteed points - that is a 100% modifier to Attack Rating.
-After the 17 I specified, I don't know whether further points should go into Bash (to increase Double Swing's damage noticeably) or into Mace Mastery (to increase AR and damage of all attacks by a bit). I'm open to ideas.

Here's how I think I'll handle it by level:

2: Howl
3: Bash
4-5: (save)
6: Leap, Double Swing, Taunt
7-16: Mace Mastery
17: (save)
18: Leap Attack, Battle Cry
19+: Either Bash or Mace Mastery, I don't know which yet

As for stats? I believe I described this roughly earlier, but I'll put it in a neater and more specific form here:

2-8: All points in Dexterity
9-12: All points in Strength
13: 3 points in Strength, 2 in Dexterity
14: 3 points in Dexterity, 2 in Vitality
15-18: All points in Dexterity
19+: All points in Vitality

I'm open to some interpretation on when to build Strength, but I wanted to finish building Strength before we really got far in Act 2, in case a good weapon that'd be within our maximum Strength is part of monster drops THEN.

Edit: Let me try something here. Vs. Duriel, at level 16 with this setup. So Mace Mastery level 10, Double Swing level 1, and 70 Dexterity.

Duriel has 112 defense and is level 22.

Attack Rating: (70 * 5) - 35 + ClassBonus (20 for barb) = 335. With Double Swing, that's 335 * (1 + 1 + .15), or about 720.

Hit Chance: 100 * 720 / (720 + 112) * 2 * 16 / (16 + 22)

....which equals about 73%. There's a maximum hit chance of 84% with these levels. So if I can compensate for his freeze aura (thawing potions are my most likely answer) I shouldn't do too badly there.

Well, I guess that cements it.  I drop Find Potion at that rate.

Anyway, I've adjusted my skill point distribution a little.  Here's how it pans out:

-Howl, Taunt, Battle Cry, Leap, Leap Attack, Double Swing, and Bash each get one guaranteed point.
-Mace Mastery gets 10 guaranteed points - that is a 100% modifier to Attack Rating.
-After the 17 I specified, I don't know whether further points should go into Bash (to increase Double Swing's damage noticeably) or into Mace Mastery (to increase AR and damage of all attacks by a bit).  I'm open to ideas.

Here's how I think I'll handle it by level:

2: Howl
3: Bash
4-5: (save)
6: Leap, Double Swing, Taunt
7-16: Mace Mastery
17: (save)
18: Leap Attack, Battle Cry
19+: Either Bash or Mace Mastery, I don't know which yet

As for stats?  I believe I described this roughly earlier, but I'll put it in a neater and more specific form here:

2-8: All points in Dexterity
9-12: All points in Strength
13: 3 points in Strength, 2 in Dexterity
14: 3 points in Dexterity, 2 in Vitality
15-18: All points in Dexterity
19+: All points in Vitality

I'm open to some interpretation on when to build Strength, but I wanted to finish building Strength before we really got far in Act 2, in case a good weapon that'd be within our maximum Strength is part of monster drops THEN.

Edit: Let me try something here.  Vs. Duriel, at level 16 with this setup.  So Mace Mastery level 10, Double Swing level 1, and 70 Dexterity.

Duriel has 112 defense and is level 22.

Attack Rating: (70 * 5) - 35 + ClassBonus (20 for barb) = 335.  With Double Swing, that's 335 * (1 + 1 + .15), or about 720.

Hit Chance: 100 * 720 / (720 + 112) * 2 * 16 / (16 + 22)

....which equals about 73%.  There's a maximum hit chance of 84% with these levels.  So if I can compensate for his freeze aura (thawing potions are my most likely answer) I shouldn't do too badly there.

Zurreco

2007-06-30 05:33:48 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

Are you using the Peterpaulreuben's calculations to reach these values? You do know that a lot of the internal calculations, such as hit%, are not displayed correctly/determined correctly using Blizzard's given formulae?

I say this because an Attack Rating of less than 800 doesn't come close to hitting Duriel above 70% of the time, even in 1p single player norm.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-30 05:49:20 pm

2007-06-30 05:44:32 am

Never give up!

If Siyko was using those for HIS calculations in an earlier post, then yes, because I used the same formulas he did.

As it stands, right now we're in the theoretical stage of this, as I've been away from Diablo 2 for quite some time and still need to practice up again. We can figure out where we REALLY stand after playtesting.

Anyway, from some initial playing, to me it looks like the Barbarian will REQUIRE going into some special areas to get any levels, OR they're going to need to build their masteries from the get-go. Trying to use my original skill-gaining setup, a Barbarian at level 3, even after pouring all points into Dexterity, has an insanely difficult chance of hitting ANYTHING, especially the Uniques (which I need in order to level fast), in Stony Field (a Stone Skin unique, as well as Rakanishu). STONY FIELD! So I'm going to have to redo my skill order. I'm testing further to determine this, but one thing I'm seeing as likely is putting the points for Howl and Taunt at levels 15 and 16, instead of early the way they are now. I may also have to wait to get Bash and Double Swing until I reach double-digit levels.

Here's what I have in mind:
2: Mace Mastery, +5 Vitality
3: Mace Mastery, +5 Vitality
4: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
5: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
6: Leap, +5 Dexterity
7: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
8: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
9: Bash, +5 Strength
10: Double Swing, +5 Strength
11: Mace Mastery, +5 Strength
12: Mace Mastery, +5 Strength
13: Mace Mastery, +3 Strength, +2 Dexterity
14: Mace Mastery, +3 Dexterity, +2 Vitality
15: Howl, +5 Dexterity
16: Taunt, +5 Dexterity
17: (save), +5 Dexterity
18: Leap Attack, Battle Cry, +5 Dexterity
19: Bash, +5 Dexterity
20: Bash, +5 Dexterity
21: Bash, +5 Vitality

If Siyko was using those for HIS calculations in an earlier post, then yes, because I used the same formulas he did.

As it stands, right now we're in the theoretical stage of this, as I've been away from Diablo 2 for quite some time and still need to practice up again.  We can figure out where we REALLY stand after playtesting.

Anyway, from some initial playing, to me it looks like the Barbarian will REQUIRE going into some special areas to get any levels, OR they're going to need to build their masteries from the get-go.  Trying to use my original skill-gaining setup, a Barbarian at level 3, even after pouring all points into Dexterity, has an insanely difficult chance of hitting ANYTHING, especially the Uniques (which I need in order to level fast), in Stony Field (a Stone Skin unique, as well as Rakanishu).  STONY FIELD!  So I'm going to have to redo my skill order.  I'm testing further to determine this, but one thing I'm seeing as likely is putting the points for Howl and Taunt at levels 15 and 16, instead of early the way they are now.  I may also have to wait to get Bash and Double Swing until I reach double-digit levels.

Here's what I have in mind:
2: Mace Mastery, +5 Vitality
3: Mace Mastery, +5 Vitality
4: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
5: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
6: Leap, +5 Dexterity
7: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
8: Mace Mastery, +5 Dexterity
9: Bash, +5 Strength
10: Double Swing, +5 Strength
11: Mace Mastery, +5 Strength
12: Mace Mastery, +5 Strength
13: Mace Mastery, +3 Strength, +2 Dexterity
14: Mace Mastery, +3 Dexterity, +2 Vitality
15: Howl, +5 Dexterity
16: Taunt, +5 Dexterity
17: (save), +5 Dexterity
18: Leap Attack, Battle Cry, +5 Dexterity
19: Bash, +5 Dexterity
20: Bash, +5 Dexterity
21: Bash, +5 Vitality

Siyko

2007-06-30 08:00:42 pm

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

I really don't think you have enough vitality - you're going to run thru a5 and do ancients with +12 vitality? I don't know if this will be possible, no matter how many attempts are made. I'd do a demo run of lategame with this skillset before committing to it.

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-06-30 09:34:53 pm

2007-06-30 08:47:54 pm

Never give up!

My bigger concern was having enough Dexterity to have decent hit chances later. Once I find where 'enough' of THAT is, we can determine whether we're able to trim Dexterity and add to Vitality. Also keep in mind that I claimed earlier that I don't realistically expect a Barbarian to make it on just level 21, so there's more leeway for Vitality later.

The early vitality points are only because I have so little health as it is.

Let me try some different math here. Level 21, just 60 Dex, everything else the same, using Double Swing rank 1 vs. Baal.

AR: (60 * 5) - 35 + 20 = 285
With Mace Mastery level 10, it'd be 285 * (1 + 1 + .15), or 613.
If we went for Mace Mastery level 13 instead, it'd be 285 * (1 + 1.24 + .15), or 681.

Hit Chance: 100 * 613 / (613 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 34%

With Mace Mastery 13, it's instead 100 * 681 / (681 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 36%

Well... I'm surprised. 20 fewer points in Dexterity and our hit chance only falls 4% (although THAT seems like an unrealistically low decrease). This also demonstrates why Mace Mastery only would go to rank 10 - and might make a case for us putting it even lower (though it ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT go below 4, after which the critical hit chance increases slow down dramatically).

I guess 80 Life greatly outweighs a hit chance increase of 4%. I'm scared to go any lower on Dexterity than 60, but if I find we can do so and get away with it, I may try it.

I'm not trying the 'with Battle Cry' calculation - though that affects our hit chances more than any further adjustments in AR.

By the way, I took another look at rune words, and though runes don't drop too often, I'm considering manipulating for Ith + El + Eth (I may have to do something silly, like go through the Countess's tower TWICE, if I want to go that route - although the champions/uniques there ought to help a bit), which when put in a weapon in that order, creates the Malice runeword (I believe it's usable as early as level 15, since none of the runes there have a higher level requirement than that). As far as I can tell that would REALLY help our late-game hit chances - my only concern with the rune word is that 'drain life' thing. (If I wanted to do the crazy/stupid thing and have BOTH weapons use runes, I'd put Tir + El in the other weapon, which would have to be my Flail in this case.) If I went with this route I would also probably not have to be concerned with Battle Cry - it'd be redundant, allowing us to put more points in other skills.

Another concern I have is parking Baal's waves of minions. I'm definitely figure I'm going to have to park the last two, and may need to park the third wave. But the Barbarian's not that good at parking enemies or, heck, even controlling them well at all. Any ideas?

My bigger concern was having enough Dexterity to have decent hit chances later.  Once I find where 'enough' of THAT is, we can determine whether we're able to trim Dexterity and add to Vitality.  Also keep in mind that I claimed earlier that I don't realistically expect a Barbarian to make it on just level 21, so there's more leeway for Vitality later.

The early vitality points are only because I have so little health as it is.

Let me try some different math here.  Level 21, just 60 Dex, everything else the same, using Double Swing rank 1 vs. Baal.

AR: (60 * 5) - 35 + 20 = 285
With Mace Mastery level 10, it'd be 285 * (1 + 1 + .15), or 613.
If we went for Mace Mastery level 13 instead, it'd be 285 * (1 + 1.24 + .15), or 681.

Hit Chance: 100 * 613 / (613 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 34%

With Mace Mastery 13, it's instead 100 * 681 / (681 + 313) * 2 * 21 / (21 + 60) = 36%

Well... I'm surprised.  20 fewer points in Dexterity and our hit chance only falls 4% (although THAT seems like an unrealistically low decrease).  This also demonstrates why Mace Mastery only would go to rank 10 - and might make a case for us putting it even lower (though it ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT go below 4, after which the critical hit chance increases slow down dramatically).

I guess 80 Life greatly outweighs a hit chance increase of 4%.  I'm scared to go any lower on Dexterity than 60, but if I find we can do so and get away with it, I may try it.

I'm not trying the 'with Battle Cry' calculation - though that affects our hit chances more than any further adjustments in AR.

By the way, I took another look at rune words, and though runes don't drop too often, I'm considering manipulating for Ith + El + Eth (I may have to do something silly, like go through the Countess's tower TWICE, if I want to go that route - although the champions/uniques there ought to help a bit), which when put in a weapon in that order, creates the Malice runeword (I believe it's usable as early as level 15, since none of the runes there have a higher level requirement than that).  As far as I can tell that would REALLY help our late-game hit chances - my only concern with the rune word is that 'drain life' thing.  (If I wanted to do the crazy/stupid thing and have BOTH weapons use runes, I'd put Tir + El in the other weapon, which would have to be my Flail in this case.)  If I went with this route I would also probably not have to be concerned with Battle Cry - it'd be redundant, allowing us to put more points in other skills.

Another concern I have is parking Baal's waves of minions.  I'm definitely figure I'm going to have to park the last two, and may need to park the third wave.  But the Barbarian's not that good at parking enemies or, heck, even controlling them well at all.  Any ideas?

Siyko

2007-07-01 07:42:16 am

I used to be athiest until I realized I was God.

Leap attack and Taunt (isn't taunt a prereq for battle cry?) make minions easier to park I'd imagine.

In fact, Taunt is one of IMO the most underrated abilities of the barb. It doesn't work on bosses, and usually not on champs, but it does work on all normal mobs - you don't even have to click on the right mob, you can 'paint' it all over the place while holding taunt.

When it lands, the mob's entire AI changes to "I am going to WALK (not run) up to the barb and then attack" (note ranged mobs can run up to you and keep attacking even if you move away). Shamen can't res anything, archers stop being assholes, oblivion knights stop casting fire walls...

If it's not a prereq to battle cry (bad computer atm, can't load skill calc), then it's probably not worth getting, but if it is, you should definetly not forget it - it's always a staple skill of my barbs.

As for Battle Cry, I think you should be factoring it into all your boss calculations (as long as you're level enough to use it then (18?)). Not only does it significantly reduce their defense, but also the damage they deal - it's like increasing your hp by 25%.

Going for two runewords is really gutsy - I figure if you're going to manipulate that hard for the runes, you may as well manipulate a run where you hit baal 75% of the time with a 40% hit rate.

Also, i THINK there's a bug with leap, where if you leap (not attack) right onto someone, while they get pushed back, their defense counts as zero. I never read about it, but I remember doing that with a ridiculously underlevel pikebarb against baal (and dying a lot). May be worth trying, although the mana cost is going to add up.

I also wouldn't forget mana - energy is a horrid source of mana for the barb, but if you can toss a sapphire into something, you can ridiculously raise your mana pool (even if its just a quilted with a handful of chips for the long-run segments where you need to leap a lot)

I never did much math with the barb, but I have a lot of experience with him, although I never really tried to make underlevel 'work', just know how hard it is =P

Leap attack and Taunt (isn't taunt a prereq for battle cry?) make minions easier to park I'd imagine.

In fact, Taunt is one of IMO the most underrated abilities of the barb. It doesn't work on bosses, and usually not on champs, but it does work on all normal mobs - you don't even have to click on the right mob, you can 'paint' it all over the place while holding taunt.

When it lands, the mob's entire AI changes to "I am going to WALK (not run) up to the barb and then attack" (note ranged mobs can run up to you and keep attacking even if you move away). Shamen can't res anything, archers stop being assholes, oblivion knights stop casting fire walls...

If it's not a prereq to battle cry (bad computer atm, can't load skill calc), then it's probably not worth getting, but if it is, you should definetly not forget it - it's always a staple skill of my barbs.

As for Battle Cry, I think you should be factoring it into all your boss calculations (as long as you're level enough to use it then (18?)). Not only does it significantly reduce their defense, but also the damage they deal - it's like increasing your hp by 25%.

Going for two runewords is really gutsy - I figure if you're going to manipulate that hard for the runes, you may as well manipulate a run where you hit baal 75% of the time with a 40% hit rate.

Also, i THINK there's a bug with leap, where if you leap (not attack) right onto someone, while they get pushed back, their defense counts as zero. I never read about it, but I remember doing that with a ridiculously underlevel pikebarb against baal (and dying a lot). May be worth trying, although the mana cost is going to add up.

I also wouldn't forget mana - energy is a horrid source of mana for the barb, but if you can toss a sapphire into something, you can ridiculously raise your mana pool (even if its just a quilted with a handful of chips for the long-run segments where you need to leap a lot)

I never did much math with the barb, but I have a lot of experience with him, although I never really tried to make underlevel 'work', just know how hard it is =P

Argg0

2007-07-01 09:15:16 am

Hmm... pie?

Berserker Armor appears for the first time at Arcane...

As for the helmet, by barracks it should come around.

If you plan to get the armor, you really should get also the helmet. Those 10*lvl ar are going to help a lot (not to mention the extra defence and life).

AquaTiger

2007-07-01 02:18:46 pm

Never give up!

Siyko: Yeah, Taunt's a prerequisite for Battle Cry. There's now two reasons I get it later rather than sooner - I desperately need high AR early on (I do my masteries early - this is my original reason BTW), and there's no enemy parking needed until at earliest Act 3 (the Council Members around Mephisto).

The second rune word ('Steel') was just as an example. There's no way I'd try to manipulate for two rune words - I'd only get two if the right runes for the second one dropped by accident.

And as far as mana - I'd probably manipulate it so Andariel drops a sapphire or something like that. Later on, I'll hope for a decent sapphire to drop and then complete the first quest in Act 5, at least if I get the Berserker's Hauberk like I'm hoping.

Argg0: I just re-examined the Berserker's Headgear, and it's definitely a viable option. It's 8 * level, but the Berserker's Headgear also grants fire resistance, which I still need at that point.

gia

2007-07-03 09:41:32 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Howl Taunt Battle Cry are definitely awesome, you can do the A5 parking easily with howl+taunt, but then im talking from my experience (with +lvl items), by lvl 21 and short of items im not sure if howl is useful even with a +3 howl helm

would the A5 second quest for the runes be useful? instead of extra leveling, extra resistances, mana and some blocking could help with howl. With howl its just a matter of running nonstop.

As far as i recall the find x skills expend so much mana they are unusable.

You are considering at least one point into increased stamina? so you walk less, you aren't using much vitality, unless you plan on getting the special boots?

I obviously haven't done the whole planning but I'd go for lvl 24 with battle orders and concentrate.

Now comparing three options and without taking into consideration the chance to hit, or 6% critical chance (which still needs to hit to kick), or strength (which lowers the gainings I believe), etc. To aim for Dswing + high hit rate is great if you got leech, your hp investment is low so a shield + dex + howl (or leech +high ar Smiley

) would help.

Finally if arent willing to try to try to wear a lot of set items an ar ring would help boost the ar.

Take these 3 options with the total bonuses compared:

10mace 4 bash:
normal
73% dmg
100% ar
17ch

bash
+4dmg
138% dmg
135% ar
17ch

dswing
113% dmg (+40% bash)
115% ar
17ch

4mace 10bash:
normal
43% dmg
52%ar
11ch

bash
+10dmg
138% dmg -> stays, except you got extra 6 min/max dmg
117%ar
11ch

dswing
143% dmg (+100%bash) -> worth 33% extra actual damage
67%ar
11ch

4mace 7conc:
normal
43% dmg
52%ar
11ch

bash -> damage stays, useful for electric
+1dmg
133% dmg (+35%conc +5%stun)
72%ar
11ch

dswing -> this one drops 25% actual damage, whats better 25% damage on regular monsters or 20% damage on baal?
53% dmg (+10%bash)
67%ar
11ch

conc -> dont push, cant stop, worth vitality since may use shield and use the dex
160% def (your base def will suck anyway)
172% ar -> ups a lot
148% dmg (+5%bash) -> ups 20% actual damage compared to dswing
11ch

Howl Taunt Battle Cry are definitely awesome, you can do the A5 parking easily with howl+taunt, but then im talking from my experience (with +lvl items), by lvl 21 and short of items im not sure if howl is useful even with a +3 howl helm

would the A5 second quest for the runes be useful? instead of extra leveling, extra resistances, mana and some blocking could help with howl. With howl its just a matter of running nonstop.

As far as i recall the find x skills expend so much mana they are unusable.

You are considering at least one point into increased stamina? so you walk less, you aren't using much vitality, unless you plan on getting the special boots?

I obviously haven't done the whole planning but I'd go for lvl 24 with battle orders and concentrate.

Now comparing three options and without taking into consideration the chance to hit, or 6% critical chance (which still needs to hit to kick), or strength (which lowers the gainings I believe), etc.  To aim for Dswing + high hit rate is great if you got leech, your hp investment is low so a shield + dex + howl (or leech +high ar :) ) would help.

Finally if arent willing to try to try to wear a lot of set items an ar ring would help boost the ar.

Take these 3 options with the total bonuses compared:

10mace 4 bash:
normal
73% dmg
100% ar
17ch

bash
+4dmg
138% dmg
135% ar
17ch

dswing
113% dmg (+40% bash)
115% ar
17ch

4mace 10bash:
normal
43% dmg
52%ar
11ch

bash
+10dmg
138% dmg -> stays, except you got extra 6 min/max dmg
117%ar
11ch

dswing
143% dmg (+100%bash) -> worth 33% extra actual damage
67%ar
11ch

4mace 7conc:
normal
43% dmg
52%ar
11ch

bash -> damage stays, useful for electric
+1dmg
133% dmg (+35%conc +5%stun)
72%ar
11ch

dswing -> this one drops 25% actual damage, whats better 25% damage on regular monsters or 20% damage on baal?
53% dmg (+10%bash)
67%ar
11ch

conc -> dont push, cant stop, worth vitality since may use shield and use the dex
160% def (your base def will suck anyway)
172% ar -> ups a lot
148% dmg (+5%bash) -> ups 20% actual damage compared to dswing
11ch

AquaTiger

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-07-03 10:34:05 pm

2007-07-03 10:21:30 pm

Never give up!

The second Act 5 quest? Only maybe. I'm hoping to have everything I need in terms of equipment by the time I enter Chaos Sanctuary at absolute latest, so another quest for runes that late is probably not a good idea.

For stamina, no, I am NOT putting points in Increased Stamina. First, the new build I'm working on definitely has a higher amount of Vitality than the original build seen here, because of a discovery that I can put much less in Dexterity and my hit chance doesn't suffer as much as I expected. Second, if I need stamina THAT badly, I plan on resorting to Stamina Potions - which refill stamina completely and give unlimited stamina for.... how many seconds was it? 30? 45? 60? 90? I don't know. And yes, I'm going to at least attempt to get some sort of fast run/walk boots (I'm looking at Hsarus's Iron Heel or Vidala's Fetlock - and I'd like to be reminded whether the first of these, or any fast run/walk boots for that matter, can be dropped by Andariel).

Find Potion takes 2 mana, Find Item takes 7. So Find Item is very much unusuable while Find Potion could have been. I dropped Find Potion a while ago from the strategy though, because its second function - making enemies unrevivable - isn't needed enough to make it worthwhile.

I'm probably going to check over my current build (not the one I posted, but the one I hinted at when discussing stamina) one of these days and see whether it's optimal, so I can eventually find a good one (in casual play/mapping of this file, I'm trying a build centered around the Concentrate skill, but my notes have a Double Swing build). The certain things about a successful build are:
-Its hit chance against Baal, WITHOUT Battle Cry rank 1, must be 30% or higher (Battle Cry will increase hit chance by about 5-6% on its own). So, for instance, my Dexterity can only go so low before we start having problems.
-No matter what level I use as a base, I must set 3 skill points aside for Howl/Taunt/Battle Cry.
-At least one point in Leap has to be there somewhere for escape purposes, and the odds of one point in Leap Attack are very high if not guaranteed because of its distance increase.
-My cutoff is level 24 - I am DEFINITELY NOT going higher than level 24. (Battle Orders is thus probably out of the question, since you could only get 1 rank in it at level 24.)

The second Act 5 quest?   Only maybe.  I'm hoping to have everything I need in terms of equipment by the time I enter Chaos Sanctuary at absolute latest, so another quest for runes that late is probably not a good idea.

For stamina, no, I am NOT putting points in Increased Stamina.  First, the new build I'm working on definitely has a higher amount of Vitality than the original build seen here, because of a discovery that I can put much less in Dexterity and my hit chance doesn't suffer as much as I expected.  Second, if I need stamina THAT badly, I plan on resorting to Stamina Potions - which refill stamina completely and give unlimited stamina for.... how many seconds was it?  30?  45?  60?  90?  I don't know.  And yes, I'm going to at least attempt to get some sort of fast run/walk boots (I'm looking at Hsarus's Iron Heel or Vidala's Fetlock - and I'd like to be reminded whether the first of these, or any fast run/walk boots for that matter, can be dropped by Andariel).

Find Potion takes 2 mana, Find Item takes 7.  So Find Item is very much unusuable while Find Potion could have been.  I dropped Find Potion a while ago from the strategy though, because its second function - making enemies unrevivable - isn't needed enough to make it worthwhile.

I'm probably going to check over my current build (not the one I posted, but the one I hinted at when discussing stamina) one of these days and see whether it's optimal, so I can eventually find a good one (in casual play/mapping of this file, I'm trying a build centered around the Concentrate skill, but my notes have a Double Swing build).  The certain things about a successful build are:
-Its hit chance against Baal, WITHOUT Battle Cry rank 1, must be 30% or higher (Battle Cry will increase hit chance by about 5-6% on its own).  So, for instance, my Dexterity can only go so low before we start having problems.
-No matter what level I use as a base, I must set 3 skill points aside for Howl/Taunt/Battle Cry.
-At least one point in Leap has to be there somewhere for escape purposes, and the odds of one point in Leap Attack are very high if not guaranteed because of its distance increase.
-My cutoff is level 24 - I am DEFINITELY NOT going higher than level 24.  (Battle Orders is thus probably out of the question, since you could only get 1 rank in it at level 24.)