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AquaTiger: 2007-06-28 03:17:13 pm
Never give up!
The old topic's several pages down, so I figured I'd try making a new discussion from scratch.

I'd need some time to refresh myself on playing Diablo 2 with the Paladin, but I recently came up with a strategy revision.

Quests:

I'm tempted to deal with either Radament in Act 2 or Izual in Act 4 (the former takes longer, the latter is more difficult).  If I can hit level 17 before fighting Duriel (heck, even if I can't), then the Countess is also a possibility (at least if I can harvest Tal runes that way - Duriel has only 20% poison resistance so it'd help that fight, and few of the important monsters in general are completely immune to poison).  Since my strategy relies on socketed items, if I find myself with inadequate stuff in Act 4 I'll do the Hellforge quest.  The only other considered optional quest would be the first one in Act 5, if I need to make something socketed.

Outside of that, only the mandatory stuff.


Required Items:

Unfortunately, the Paladin can't escape the fact that for a speedrun, he's VERY item-dependent.  In order to reduce my need for VERY specific drops somewhat, I'm going to aim for getting a lot of socketable items.

Armor: I need to get decent armor only for Acts 1 and 2.  Preferably Breast Plate armor - it's the lowest-requirement armor out there that has any chance of having 3 sockets.  I might have to get weaker armor in Act 1 to tide me over.

Shield: Only necessary for really early and really late.  It needs to be either a Bone Shield, Kite Shield, or Large Shield - the former has very high block chance, the latter two have the possibility of 3 sockets.

Helm: A Mask, easily - potential for another 3 sockets.

Gloves: Not important - I'll prefer resistance bonuses, reduced freeze duration, mana/life steal, or increased attack speed.

Boots: If I can't get one that adds to run speed, one that adds to stamina regeneration is the next best(?) thing.

Belt: Only need this for the potions, so I don't care what magic bonuses this gets.

Weapons: Early on I need to use a 1-handed sword.  Later I can switch to 2-handed, but when fighting Diablo and then Baal, I need to go back to 1-handed because my shield bears my resistances.  The Crystal Sword has some range to it compared to the other 1-handed swords, and has potential for a lot of sockets (at least according to Arreat Summit), while a Broad Sword (with requirements I'd barely reach) does a little more average damage and its socket count isn't much lower, so either would be a choice for late-game (if I got Tal runes, the 1-handed sword is where I'd put them).  However, if I can reach them quickly enough, a Falchion would be what I'd want early-game, due to it having the second-highest average damage of all 1-handed swords in Normal difficulty.  For 2-handed swords, the Claymore is preferred - the next sword with higher average damage has a strength requirement with which I don't want to waste my time.

Gems/Socketing: Weapons should get amethysts and emeralds, shields should get rubies and topazes, and helms and armor should get rubies, diamonds, and sapphires.  Skulls should be sold.  I need either a ruby or amethyst from Andariel (amethyst would go to a weapon, ruby in this case would go to armor).  If I do the Hellforge quest, the perfect gem I get MUST be a ruby - both Diablo AND Baal use fire to some degree, but only Diablo uses lightning and only Baal uses ice.


Stat Points:

Strength is only going up to... about 48.  I only need to build up to roughly 35 early on - I can worry about hitting my max strength sometime in Act 2.

My item plan doesn't need to touch Dexterity, because amethysts and diamonds will help with my abysmal attack rating, but I may put some points in here to give Zeal something to build from.

Energy stays at 15.  I'll socket a sapphire or use magic items if I need more mana.

Vitality is where everything else goes.



Skills:

I don't know the odds of a strategy that only reaches level 21 for a PALADIN, but I'm not counting on those odds.

I need to save a point or two for Resist Lightning.  This aura might only marginally help against Mephisto, but it will save my rear end when fighting Diablo.  With high enough health I should be able to eat an entire Lightning Inferno attack head-on without healing (I've done it before with lightning resistance between 60% and 70%), which would be useful if I get caught off guard by him or if he just plain doesn't cooperate.  It's either get Resist Lightning or manipulate for a Lightning Resist Shrine, and I'm not sure I want to take my chances on shrine manipulation in a place as difficult as the Chaos Sanctuary.  The other auras aren't needed - I'm going to try and manipulate for fire resistance, our need for cold resistance will be handled by thawing potions, and poison resistance (not available by an aura, unless you count reduced duration as 'resistance' in which case Cleansing would be the aura) should be fine with antidote potions.

I may want Charge for the mid- to late-game, since it works with 2-handed weapons as well as with shields and I can use it as the first hit in combat with tough enemies, but Smite's critical regardless.  If nothing else, I should be able to knock a frustrating enemy out of the way just long enough for me to pass.

Besides Resist Lightning, the only auras I'd want are Might (my primary aura) or MAYBE Thorns.  I don't need to pour tons of points into Thorns, but one point would help against certain situations (*coughDurielcough*).  I don't need to spend huge amounts in Might either, but even one point increases my damage noticeably.  I'll examine Concentration, but I doubt I'd use that, as I'd have to waste a point in Blessed Aim (which didn't work as well as advertised when I last used it).  The Holy auras are out also - if I wanted one I'd go for Holy Freeze, but I'd still have to waste a skill point on Holy Fire.  Vigor is out too because I'd have to waste three points - too much of a cost for me.

Beyond that, I need four points in Zeal, and I'm going to want at least four points in Sacrifice (which boosts Zeal's damage by 12% per point).  I can probably pump one or the other after that.  Vengeance, a skill I considered a while back, might not help much because of enemy resistances that late in the game, although it might find occasional use.


I'll take ideas from there.
Thread title:  
Just call me the cynicism machine
The time it takes to do certain side quests is almost never worth the bonuses you get from it.  Aside from being a death trap, the Sewers are way too big for just one skill point after having to fight an army.

I also wouldn't really rely on socketed items.  The chance to get decent gems and runes is hard enough as it is.  You have to push segments for certain drop sets from time to time.  It's most important to simply get cold and +skills at first, maybe bringing in some leech later on.

Also, you're still terribly under-estimating the need for Dexterity.  I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but my level 16-ish Paladin using pumped Zeal under Blessed Aim still only hits at 60% or something (which is a lot less in reality).

I'm still sure that the Zealadin build is going to be the best for a norm SP run.  That's why I haven't given up on my run yet.  I'm able to kill Duriel 1/3 attempts, but I'm trying to do so without losing my mercenary, without having to go back to town, and without getting a crappy drop set.  That being said, I'll be stuck on that segment for a while.

I should get back to work on my run, huh?  :-/
Edit history:
AquaTiger: 2007-06-28 08:17:49 pm
Never give up!
Okay, I'm trying to build an argument for socketed items and not finding myself able to make a good one.  Let's just say it revolves around the fact that most of the equipment types a Paladin would want emerge mainly in Act 2, where magic equipment still isn't all that great.  Sockets are probably more important in shields (high resistances) and armor/helms (life/mana boosts) than weapons (usually just varying damage boosts), and definitely more important later (when good gems are available, because speedrunners can rarely use the equipment with the best normal magic modifiers due to levels, but gem equipment is easily usable at speedrun levels).

Runes shouldn't be ignored either, at least if we can come up with some good runewords or find reliable places for good runes.

....checking the Sorceress thread, Tal+Eth in 2 socket body armor sounds like a decent possibility.  Is there a level requirement on Stealth, the resulting runeword?

Or maybe Ith+El+Eth in a melee weapon for the Malice runeword.  That one may help alleviate our problems with hitting monsters if it turns out to be within reach.

For quests, Radament (if you know better places to make up for the experience points gotten from here), Izual, and Countess (unless Tal runes can be gotten from her as I have heard) can probably be dropped without worry (Izual because he has nearly as many HP as Diablo himself).  I'm not dropping the Hellforge from the list however, unless you can find a better way to get high fire resistance without resorting to an aura (and it's also a decent time to boost other equipment as well if it's socketed).

But I forgot about the Horadric Malus - if we really could use the imbue later on.  I dunno, it probably helps a casual player more.


As for Dexterity?  What's the Attack Rating of the Paladin you're using after Zeal and Blessed Aim are taken into account (and the Dexterity of said Paladin)?  That may help my decision a little.


I do agree with Zealadin as the general build, mostly because with the exception of Duriel and maybe some fights in Chaos Sanctuary, most bosses and important monsters rely too much on ranged attacks for a Thornadin to work (and don't get me started on Hammerdins).  Remind me what your plan on resistances and weaponry is.


And why does the mercenary need to stay up?  That part's REALLY asking for too much.  'No town visits' and 'decent drop set' I can understand, but you'd basically have to constantly stand between the mercenary and Duriel to have any chance of saving the merc.


Edit: Some other notes:
-The element to which Mephisto is weakest is cold, but not by much.
-Cold and lightning damage will work wonders against the Infector of Souls - I suggest cold because the Grand Vizier of Chaos resists lightning.  Won't help much on Lord De Seis though - he resists them all equally.
Edit history:
Zurreco: 2007-06-28 09:03:12 pm
Just call me the cynicism machine
As I've said before: don't rely on gems and runes.  They're awesome to have around, but I've only found a handful of useless gems and maybe one or two runes in my whole running attempt.

At Duriel, my Paladin is level 15 with L4 Zeal, L10 Sacrifice (bumped by +2 or +3 I think), L1 Smite, L1 Might, and L1 Blessed Aim.  After all items factor in, Strength is 50, Dexterity is 68, Vitality is 30, Energy is 16.  Zeal does something like 30-38 with a cold effect.

Attack Rating at Duriel is <whatever 68 Dex gives, something over 450> with L4 Zeal (+40%) and Blessed Aim (+100%), which at least breaks 1000AR (though it's higher than that).

I keep the mercenary up because a) if he dies, my AR plummets and it takes a lot longer to kill Duriel, b) I need my mercenary to level up a lot so that he can survive Act 3, and c) it saves me from having to waste time and money resurrecting him.

I don't have any plans for resists until I hit Diablo, and even then it will only be showing slight concern for fire damage.  I was going to tinker around and see if I could Smite-cancel his stupid fire hose attack, which makes lightning resist much less important to me.  I figure I will cross that bridge when I come to it.  I plan to set up a segment at the end of the River of Flame, just in case I decide that I need to backtrack to Haephestus for some experience and runes.
100% runs=great to watch
I guess I'll try to weigh in again as well.  Smiley

-For a Melee Paladin run, with all that is stacked against you, for the sake of fighting future bosses, and the fact that it can be gotten very early in the game---I emphatically recommend Cleglaw's Pincers in order to save the player, and prolly the Merc's, life.  Ya just can't go wrong with a nice chunk of Slow Effect triggering while ya Zeal furiously...hoping to kill Diablo/Baal/Meph/etc before they bust out something "troublesome".  I've gotten this to drop in early Act 2 before personally, and theoretically I'd imagine it being possible to drop even earlier than that.

-Considered aiming for a Pally specific shield like a Rondache or something?  While they wouldn't have the pomp of a Necro Head, I WANT to think they'd be a bit "special" considering Normal mode is the only focus.

-I'd say one of the best overall uses of Runes would be something like Holy Thunder RW.  Though, IIRC, Eth runes can do fantastic things to the defense of enemies when put into weapons. Otherwise, not much else special that can go down for normal save for the few things that give Crushing Blow or Deadly Strike.  Perhaps contemplate other set pieces along with Cleglaw's.

-You might do better Merc wise to adopt a situational approach.  An Act 3 Cold Iron Wolf stands a much better chance at lengthy survival/helping during the fun times of Chaos Sanctuary and Diablo considering odds are good only your Zeal Paladin would even have a remote chance of consistently surviving tanking.  Only takes a few seconds to warp here or there depending, but could very well not be worth it depending on what kinda EQ and luck one would be planning for.

-I agree that Zeal with perhaps occasional tricks as per the situation will pretty much have to be the core of endeavor.
Hmm... pie?
I may be wrong, but I think Holy Thunder has lvl req of 24 because of Holy Shock.

Also, it requires an Ort, which can only be dropped (realistically) by forge or from the save barbarians quest.
Quote:
Also, it requires an Ort, which can only be dropped (realistically) by forge or from the save barbarians quest.


As a pala you'll get 'ral', 'ort' and 'tal' from cain in act 5.
Just call me the cynicism machine
Quote:
As a pala you'll get 'ral', 'ort' and 'tal' from cain in act 5.

EVERYONE gets Ral Ort and Tal from Qual K'hek after doing a5q2, since it makes Ancient's Pledge.
Hmm... pie?
Quote:

As a pala you'll get 'ral', 'ort' and 'tal' from cain in act 5.


What do you think I meant with "save barbarians quest"?
Edit history:
AquaTiger: 2007-07-07 11:18:03 pm
Never give up!
Quote:
I was going to tinker around and see if I could Smite-cancel his stupid fire hose attack, which makes lightning resist much less important to me.  I figure I will cross that bridge when I come to it.


I happened to cross a similar bridge in doing the casual test/mapping playthrough with the Barbarian.  I tested both Bash and Stun against him in that case.  Neither one had ANY effects besides the damage inflicted - Diablo is apparently immune to both knockback AND stun.  I actually tried doing some of those during his lightning hose, and it didn't work there either.

In other words, unless there's something to Smite that I'm missing, you're not going to be able to Smite-cancel his lightning hose attack.

There IS a shrine in Chaos Sanctuary (one of a few set maps) though.  If you feel up to it, try forcing that shrine to be one of Resist Lightning or Resist Fire.
That's correct, smite or any other stun won't interrupt a boss.  Really the only thing I think you can do is segment at the River of Flame and hope for low amounts of hose from him.  It shouldn't be necessary to be hit by much of it, just run in circles around him.
Just call me the cynicism machine
I'll probably switch to using Sacrifice against Diablo, just because I need to stay on my toes during the fight.  I'll hopefully find some sort of leech before then that will negate most of the Sacrifice cost.
ZZT &gt; *
Quote:
Armor: I need to get decent armor only for Acts 1 and 2.  Preferably Breast Plate armor - it's the lowest-requirement armor out there that has any chance of having 3 sockets.  I might have to get weaker armor in Act 1 to tide me over.


Not sure if you've completely scrapped the socketing idea, but you can get (and possibly shop, I don't remember (and my D2 CDs are on the wrong side of the world right now)) 3 socket ring mail in late act 1.

As to stealth (TalEth): http://www.diabloii.net/items/runes/runewords/stealth_TalEth.htm shows it having a Clvl requirement of 17
Never give up!
The reason I didn't say ring mail was the choice was because its strength requirement is 36 (while breast plate's is 30), so you'd have to wait a couple more levels to use it.

More importantly, ring mail is medium armor, while breast plate is light armor.  Meaning you run faster in breast plate armor than in ring mail.
ZZT &gt; *
Another thought: Have you considered discussing the run on the diabloii.net single player forum as well? It's at http://forums.diabloii.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3 and there are a lot of players with a lot of knowledge over there.