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sda loyalist
The people making this bigger than it is are not named Spider-Waffle.

If the demos exist for this run then they should be added, if not the video inconsistencies Spider-Waffle mentions should be addressed and then a decision about the run made.

This process doesn't have to exist for all games, but for Half-Life where it is easy to provide, it definitely should.
Don't think!  feeeeeal
And to Shadowwraith, buddy, look, honestly bro, I went to Mike first, want me to post the aim convo?  He didn't seem to care too much and said to ask Nate.  So I PMed Nate.  Nate said he was pretty sure there was never a demo submitted and to start a public thread if I thought this was an issue that should be addressed for future runs.  I PMed Daniel, and I started this thread like Nate said I should.

I never accused Daniel of cheating, I doubt he did intentionally.  I stated ways he could have easily cheated.  I doubt it did any of these intentionally like host_framerate, segmenting and trying to obsolete a SS run.  He probably didn't even know my run was SS.  This is pretty much all the fault of poor SDA management, not Daniel's.

And yes for whatever reason there was no working link to the HLSP bunny mod at the time Daniel submitted his run.  There's a link to version 4 now, I'm not even sure if that's a legit version.

I saw the run when it was first put in the update and thought it could have been segmented.  I had much bigger fish to fry back then and didn't want to go to the trouble to do this because I knew people would try to flame me saying stuff like I'm whining about someone beating my run.  Heh, funny look what some users have done...

No I haven't tried to speedrun HL in well over a year.  I'm sure if I wanted to beat this run I could, but it'd take a pretty decent effort for a SS, and much less for a five segment run.
I am afraid no ones riding nothing!!!
Quote from ZenicReverie:
Isn't the HLSP bunnyhop mod still hosted on the HL game page or is the zip file something different?  You can ask the runner where he got his mod from.

I have tried many times to get the "v4" of the mod but couldn't because the page was down or something.When googled the search gives a new and "improved" v5 which has added quake style jumping which is obviously not allowed.Agreed that demo's should be given for runs which have them and the demo feature in the game doesn't suck.
I'm a Half-Life runner ;)
Quote from Spider-Waffle:
So if there's no demo verification for this HL speedrun I would kindly ask that it be removed if the runner can't provide it.

Asking a run to be removed due to the lack of demo file which wasn't even asked from Daniel when he submitted his run is imo ridiculous, and since his run was added for approximately 7 mounths ago, I doubt he even still got the demo file. However, I do agree that including the demo file(s) when submitting a run should be required.
unfortunately i neither have the demo nor the mod anymore. It was a SS run though and the teleports youre talking about always appear after a loading zone for me. Im not sure why that happens but nvm. Just send me a link to the mod and im going to crush the 2:54 run with a demo to prove, it wasnt a perfect run anyways.
I like how you post a thread titled 'run removal request' and used the word 'cheated' repeatedly in your first post, then claim that

Quote from Spider-Waffle:
I never accused Daniel of cheating

Roll Eyes

That said, it sounds as though:
* The runner almost certainly used a banned mod since there was nowhere to find the legitimate one, which is grounds for removal
* The runner probably didn't start his video at the start of the run, which in a run this short is probably grounds for removal (or at least forcing him to re-FRAPS the demo if he still has it) rather than merely time penalisation
* The runner may have segmented his run, although just the fact that some parts of the game behave differently on his PC to yours is NOT sufficient evidence of this. The runner needs to be asked about all these things and in the absence of demos or thorough testing to show he is mistaken or lying, we should take what he says as true.
Edit: Ah, he's posted while I was typing this post. No segmentation, he claims, and I have no reason not to believe him. Though his post seems to imply that he used a banned version of HLSP, in which case his run should be taken down. Of course, the fact that he's come out when asked and said this, ending the issue, has kind of made this whole angry 3-page thread unnecessary.

It also seems true that:
* SDA really has to keep a legit version of HLSP-Bunny on site with a clear download link on the HL game page saying that using that version is required, or else runners will use a banned version by mistake.

And it may be true that:
* Requiring demos would make verification tighter, and so should be done since this would be absolutely no trouble to runners

(Although dex clearly disagrees on the verification value of demos).

However, as far as the HLSP bunny mod goes, it seems extremely harsh to lay the blame for that at Mike. He is not a HL runner, you are. You are one of the only people on the site who should've been aware the issue existed, and so if you didn't bring to Mike's attention long before this run emerged that SDA needed to post a legit version of HLSP, and explain the issue to him fully if he didn't understand, how is that his fault? You have some good points in this thread but leaping in, screaming that the place has gone to hell and flinging shit at everyone like an infant chimp is a poor way to make friends and influence people. As opposed to handling it in a way that would get results quicker and cause less anger, which would be to list the issues, explain calmly why they matter and propose solutions to them, and then to have a calm and reasoned debate on any matters of contention (such as providing demos).

This one?
Edit history:
Zhouy: 2009-06-10 07:11:19 am
I'm a Half-Life runner ;)

Didn't work before IIRC. Seems to be a valid link again.

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:
Though his post seems to imply that he used a banned version of HLSP, in which case his run should be taken down.

To me, it seems like he don't know which version he used, and wanted a link to the v.4 mod so he can be sure that he won't get hold of the banned version as it seems that he's gonna rerun it.
All arguments aside;

Quote from Spider-Waffle:
I didn't like someone else's name on the HL page

That is all.
I'm a Half-Life runner ;)
To be honest, groobo never fails to make me laugh. lol
Edit history:
mikwuyma: 2009-06-10 08:59:51 am
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Quote from Spider-Waffle:
>>>Here are some single-segment runs without demo or webcam proof. And all of these were done while Radix was running the site.

Does this mean Radix defiled his own site? I would like to think not.<<<

I'm willing to wager those runs have video evidence which isn't so apocryphal.  Also that they were verified by more than two people who had no proven qualifications.  And MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY, they didn't obsolete a SS run which was required demo proof and had it.

And I'm willing to wager you're just using big words like apocryphal to make yourself sound smarter. What about those runs makes the video evidence so much more solid than Half-Life? Did the verifiers have proven qualifications? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Honestly, if I'm lucky I'll find one verifier who knows a game half as well as the runner because in most cases the runner has run through the game much more and knows the game better than anyone else.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if the runs were verified by only one or two people, because verification was actually more lax back then. See this post (ctrl+f 2004) about some of my verification stories back in the early days. I'll ask Radix whether he required demos for Half-Life later.

Once again, thanks for insulting the verification process. Verification is done by volunteers, and you could have easily volunteered to verify the run, but you didn't.

>>>If rayvex did anything cheat-worthy, instead of calling for rayvex's run to be removed and branding him a cheater, we should contact him and see if he still has the demos. Which is something I don't think anyone has tried yet.<<<

This is exactly what I've been saying, and I've already asked him and am waiting to hear back.

If that's exactly what you've been saying, then why not just wait for rayvex's response instead of making this thread?

Also, I never said anything about the new hlsp bunny being banned. I simply didn't say anything because I was confused about what you were talking about. Tongue I mean if we allow the mod anyways I don't really see a problem with using the newest version, though we probably shouldn't have allowed the mod in the first place. :-/ It's really up to debate what to do with the mod.

1. Do we want the mod in the first place (it does technically break rules)?

2. Which version to use.

BTW, stop putting Half-Life on a pedestal. It is a game, just like any other. Yes, it's a very popular game with lots of speed tricks, but that doesn't make it some super special game where demos are to be treated like the Shroud of Turin. Just because I don't know the game (nope, never played it) or its rules (which have special exceptions that I don't understand) doesn't mean that the site has gone down the shitter like you think it has.

I looked at those discrepancies you mentioned and you have some good points. I sent the runner an email so he should be coming into the topic to defend himself soon. Whoops he already replied. Good luck, Daniel.

P.S. Spider-Waffle, next time start off with specifics like those video discrepancies instead of making roundabout arguments. It makes me less likely to ignore you. Tongue

Groobo: Grin
I have one more thing to add regarding Rayvex:
Recently he was banned from EHLL (Elite-Half-Life-League) for cheating.

You can read about it here:
(the second post is about Rayvex' case)
This adds another good reason to doubt if his run is legit.

I agree with Spider-Waffle. If a PC game offers an easy option to record a demo file it should be required for verification purposes.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
I can't read the thread, it says I don't have permission.
Quote from mikwuyma:
I can't read the thread, it says I don't have permission.

Damn.. the forum probably requires a registration.

Here's the text from the post

Subject in this post: Wave, outag

Hello everyone

this post is a bit late but for all who don't know yet.
wave and outag have been going around in the background convincing people to use hacks.
saying that they are undetectable and a lot of other bullcrap like it can by pass s^lag anti-cheat system.
while the funny thing is that s^lag is not an cheat detector itself but a monitoring bot, an banlist and variable enabler i.e. !say commands for admin power.
also a database searching tool.
the s^lag banlist however is based on anti-cheat system and humanly input.

my point being is that it shows how much they really know wink.gif
though they are not stupid and will come with quite some "what seems to be believable at first" arguments to convince you.
be sure to know who you trust...

still, if you are stupid enough to fall for it and trust them then I'll tell you in advance that one of the following will happen.
1) outag or wave will send you a detectable hack while he claims it is undetectable
2) outag or wave will send you a undetectable hack and will come to me afterwards once you used it, with evidence showing that you hacked.
in simple terms. YOU WILL BE RATTEN OUT.
3) if by some miracle neither of the above will happen than we will catch you eventually, the anti-cheat team is on a high alert these days, logicically the community itself is too.
demos are being recorded, as for the community they can create a ban request for us to look at without a hesitation.
see the community banlist:
NOTE: bans on the community banlist is determinant first by a valid request, second by a community vote.
If the player is proven to be a positive hacker he/she will of course also be banned on s^lag.

wallhack screenshot rayvex vs worldspawn on crossfire.
user posted image

it is a shame what has come to some people these days.
there is only one prize for hacking which is banning!
at any rate you have been warned!

Subject in this post: rAyv3x
for the people that would like to know what happened to rayvex, well that is scenario Number 2) RATTEN OUT!
wave came to me posting the screenshot shown above and provided me some of the private conversations he had with rayvex in screenshot format as well, before and after the cheating took place.

the thing was though, it was all poor evidence
what pulled the ban through was that we got our hands on a demo from that game later on.
thanks to worldspawn.
what also pulled the ban through was that rayvex himself came clean before we had the demo.
I got respect for that.

for those of you who where good connected with him,
rayvex told me that his personal reason to test the hack out was not to gain skill, (obviously,, as he was one of the best players)
but to see if it bypassed slag, vac and ag anti-cheat system and to feel how it was like playing with a wallhack.

the thing with getting caught is that we can't trust that person anymore when it comes down to cheating.
once you have cheated it is banned for life!

the case with rayvex took place on 6th April, he did not cheat before that date.
I would also like to mention that afterwards, rayvex did us a great favour
what kind of favour that was I can not say (in order for it to work),
but I can tell you that it involves a great deal of us,
so thats it.
have fun and goodluck everyone and be sure to REMAIN clean! biggrin.gif

if you do need something be sure to contact irish or luc for a good quality spliff
or check becks out for his AG community private porn collection Grin
I cheat at every online game I play. Now what?
I fail to see how that is in any way relevant to his speedrun. o_O
I'm a Half-Life runner ;)
Quote from groobo:
I cheat at every online game I play. Now what?

Obviously you cheated at all your speedruns.
To get back to the questions mike asked, here's my two cents:

Push Half Life (and all Half-Life based games like Portal) off its podest. The exception of having a mod that restores some old version features while keeping some new version features is just annoying to say the least. It's against the basic rules of the site ("You are free to pick a version of the game you like and no game modifications", which Half-Life promptly mingles in a way no other game has or likely ever will be allowed), is a pretty arbitrary choice (why exactly this mod? Is it guaranteed to restore the original capabilities? Do the updates to the game that are not reverted have any influence besides functional demo recording?) that requires a game by game decision on a rule that's not even meant to exist. Half-Life got a lot of, in today's eyes, unwarrented special attention in the rules, and is clearly sticking out against the path the site has taken in the past years. People make mistakes, or make choices that may later be regarded as mistakes. Allowing scripts and a custom mod for Half-Life, in my eyes, was one such mistake, and I think we might want to take a stance here.

My proposal: Get rid of the special treatment of Half-Life and related games that are quite clearly restricted to those games and will never reach the status of even a per-game decision. That means, from now on don't accept any more improvements/new entries to the related games that break the general rules, add rules compliant categories besides the current runs (potentially restoring compliant runs at the same time) and keep the old runs around for legacy reasons with a disclaimer that the category is discontinued.
Don't think!  feeeeeal
Ya so did quake well before Nolan even decided to host non-quake games.  Joe-quake, visual grenade timers for your grenades and enemy grenades as well.  Good luck doing that with a mere script.  If you've got problems with HL rules you should have more with quake.
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2009-06-10 02:08:54 pm
Don't think!  feeeeeal
>>>If that's exactly what you've been saying, then why not just wait for rayvex's response instead of making this thread?<<<

I only made this thread because Nate said I should, I see retroactively now that he probably meant just for demos in future runs, I probably shouldn't have mentioned Daniel's run, I'm sorry I can see now that it was a mistake.

>>>Once again, thanks for insulting the verification process. Verification is done by volunteers, and you could have easily volunteered to verify the run, but you didn't.<<<

I'm sorry, but the process obviously needs criticism, how else can one bring attention to something needing to be improved?  I would gladly volunteer if I knew about it, if you ever want me to help verify a run just ask.

>>>Also, I never said anything about the new hlsp bunny being banned. I simply didn't say anything because I was confused about what you were talking about. Tongue I mean if we allow the mod anyways I don't really see a problem with using the newest version, though we probably shouldn't have allowed the mod in the first place. :-/ It's really up to debate what to do with the mod.<<<

I think you forgot our aim conversation about it, I tried my hardest to get you to accept it but you wouldn't budge, then you said you wouldn't talk to me until I send in my comments for contra III run.  I have the aim logs if you want to see them.  I'd love to accept the mod or have a debate about it.  Unfortunately I know this debate would be won by people who cling to their conservative ideals while knowing absolutely nothing to very little about HL and FPSes with speed jumping.
sda loyalist
Just to clarify about the Quake thing, yes, the grenade timers are a bit cheaty. Everyting else the qdqstats mod does is to aid verification, not to make it harder. It specifically doesn't change the physics of the game, for instance.
Quote from Spider-Waffle:
Unfortunately I know this debate would be won by people with conservative ideals who know very little about HL and FPSes with speed jumping.

While we're at it, why don't we add speed jumping mods to other games as well. How about Bunny Hopping in Mario Kart? I'm sure Doom 2 would be much more fun with bunny hopping. I can to a certain degree understand the decision behind allowing a mod that restores (or at least aims to) the physical behaviour of an older version of the game, but there is no way you can argue anybody into using an inoffcial mod that alters the physics of the game. This has absolutely nothing to do with knowing about HL or speed jumping, it's about not giving even more super special treatment to a game that nobody really can explain how (and why) it got the current treatment.

The Quake section always has been seperated from the othergames (now main) SDA, and the only person to ever have some adminstrative role at both sides was Radix, and he and his ideals are long gone. A lot of ancient rules have already been overhauled, there is no reason to not at least discuss changing the treatment of the half life games that are standing out against all the other games they are related to. The history and the domainname are pretty much the only thing the Quake Section and the Main SDA have in common. As long as the Half Life games are run in the same section as all other non-quake games they should adhere to the same standards and treatments.

The reason I don't object Quake rules is the simple fact that quake runs are not actually subject to the SDA rules. They don't pass a system of verification like the SDA runs, there are no encodes for the majority of them, and they are not actually hosted among the other runs. If Quake runs were to be actually mingled with all the other game runs you might have a point, but what you are stating is pretty much that Canada has different laws than the United States.
(user is banned)
Edit history:
Spider-Waffle: 2009-06-10 02:47:11 pm
Don't think!  feeeeeal
Ok, then I'm for HL being treated exactly like quake then.  Then you should have no problem it with since it would be separated from the rest of SDA.

Also, since you don't seem to know any better, I should tell you that's there's a big difference between physics and input mechanics, the newest version of HLSP bunny only changed input mechanics.
sda loyalist
no thanks Angry
You could always take a page out of the book of the Serious Sam runners and make your own Half-Life dedicated site with it's own rules.

</shameless plug>