Continuation of Roundtable Discussion

2012-11-09 07:35:12 am

every game is a horror game

I just want to say that, to me, this perceived "rift" between SRL and SDA has nothing to do with either site. Some people from SDA have felt harassed and bullied by members of SRL -- but I also think it's not being done in the name of either site. Some of the people being attacked and some of the people attacking aren't affiliated with either side and the harassment isn't going on due to the placement, as it were, of each member on each site.

I can see how people can feel like this is a polarizing issue, but I think in the long run it just has to do with individual people, not the sites at all. Shit, there are "rifts" between members of SDA and that's within the site. Not everyone is going to get along. I also think it's not possible to say "well you were rude to so and so and now you can't participate in the site". I have more to say about this but I don't think this is the place so if anyone wants to talk about it, we can.

Also Cosmo I really like the idea of a leader board and I think it would be a great improvement so that people a) can have a database of the fastest runs that is always updating, b) others can find people who are also racing/running that game (i.e. if I want to race/run Super Mario World I can go to this leaderboard, find the names of other people who run it, see their strats, their twitch accounts, etc) and join in with them or watch them, and c) it will make people feel like if they aren't the top time they still get some credit or can still contribute to the community. I think it'll also help people who run games that aren't as popular to find other people to run with. I love it and would love to contribute to it.

I just want to say that, to me, this perceived "rift" between SRL and SDA has nothing to do with either site. Some people from SDA have felt harassed and bullied by members of SRL -- but I also think it's not being done in the name of either site. Some of the people being attacked and some of the people attacking aren't affiliated with either side and the harassment isn't going on due to the placement, as it were, of each member on each site.

I can see how people can feel like this is a polarizing issue, but I think in the long run it just has to do with individual people, not the sites at all. Shit, there are "rifts" between members of SDA and that's within the site. Not everyone is going to get along. I also think it's not possible to say "well you were rude to so and so and now you can't participate in the site". I have more to say about this but I don't think this is the place so if anyone wants to talk about it, we can.

[b]Also Cosmo[/b] I really like the idea of a leader board and I think it would be a great improvement so that people a) can have a database of the fastest runs that is always updating, b) others can find people who are also racing/running that game (i.e. if I want to race/run Super Mario World I can go to this leaderboard, find the names of other people who run it, see their strats, their twitch accounts, etc) and join in with them or watch them, and c) it will make people feel like if they aren't the top time they still get some credit or can still contribute to the community. I think it'll also help people who run games that aren't as popular to find other people to run with. I love it and would love to contribute to it.

CVagts

2012-11-09 07:44:26 am

"Let's put a SMILE on that face!"

A few points that I wanted to reiterate/make based off last night:

-I really like the leaderboard idea, and I think that it would have a place on SRL if Cosmo wants to go through with it. There would be plenty of people from both SDA and SRL who would be willing to volunteer with sifting through submissions and such (I've done work like that before with CNet; it's not terribly demanding with enough people behind it). As far as requiring a video submission for the leaderboard, I'm not sure that it should be required, but there should be an option for someone to call shenanigans if someone gets a suspiciously good time.

-I'm far from the first person to comment on what I think SDA should do, but the idea of public verification is a good one that I think should be tested. Of course there are ways for it to be abused, but there are ways to sift through that if it happens. There's no telling if the community will work with it until you try (I forget who it was, maybe Uyama, who said that the best way to test it would be one well-known game, one semi-known game, and one obscure game, and I think that's the way to go. See if there are any types of games that are better or worse suited for public verification.)

A few points that I wanted to reiterate/make based off last night:

-I really like the leaderboard idea, and I think that it would have a place on SRL if Cosmo wants to go through with it.  There would be plenty of people from both SDA and SRL who would be willing to volunteer with sifting through submissions and such (I've done work like that before with CNet; it's not terribly demanding with enough people behind it).  As far as requiring a video submission for the leaderboard, I'm not sure that it should be [i]required[/i], but there should be an option for someone to call shenanigans if someone gets a suspiciously good time.

-I'm far from the first person to comment on what I think SDA should do, but the idea of public verification is a good one that I think should be tested.  Of course there are ways for it to be abused, but there are ways to sift through that if it happens.  There's no telling if the community will work with it until you try (I forget who it was, maybe Uyama, who said that the best way to test it would be one well-known game, one semi-known game, and one obscure game, and I think that's the way to go.  See if there are any types of games that are better or worse suited for public verification.)

bangerra

2012-11-09 07:47:29 am

Quote from ssskinner:

Also Cosmo I really like the idea of a leader board and I think it would be a great improvement so that people a) can have a database of the fastest runs that is always updating, b) others can find people who are also racing/running that game (i.e. if I want to race/run Super Mario World I can go to this leaderboard, find the names of other people who run it, see their strats, their twitch accounts, etc) and join in with them or watch them, and c) it will make people feel like if they aren't the top time they still get some credit or can still contribute to the community. I think it'll also help people who run games that aren't as popular to find other people to run with. I love it and would love to contribute to it.

I have been noticing a trend lately that more people start running less popular/obscure games. This might be due to the 'popular' games being very saturated with good runners and seem more 'scary' to learn because of all the crazy tricks and strats. As someone who loves playing obscure (some might even say shitty) games, I find it hard to gain any interest in what I am running at any one time. Opening new threads on SDA doesn't seem to help either.
Where I'm going with this is that (though I am not sure if it will) the proposed leaderboards might improve support for more obscure games. Showing more people crazy tricks on seemingly lackluster games may possibly show people the true potential of these games, and maybe raise some interest. Running a game by your sole self and no way to show people your improvements is a sad thing sometimes.

[quote="ssskinner"][b]Also Cosmo[/b] I really like the idea of a leader board and I think it would be a great improvement so that people a) can have a database of the fastest runs that is always updating, b) others can find people who are also racing/running that game (i.e. if I want to race/run Super Mario World I can go to this leaderboard, find the names of other people who run it, see their strats, their twitch accounts, etc) and join in with them or watch them, and c) it will make people feel like if they aren't the top time they still get some credit or can still contribute to the community. I think it'll also help people who run games that aren't as popular to find other people to run with. I love it and would love to contribute to it.[/quote]

I have been noticing a trend lately that more people start running less popular/obscure games. This might be due to the 'popular' games being very saturated with good runners and seem more 'scary' to learn because of all the crazy tricks and strats. As someone who loves playing obscure (some might even say shitty) games, I find it hard to gain any interest in what I am running at any one time. Opening new threads on SDA doesn't seem to help either. 
Where I'm going with this is that (though I am not sure if it will) the proposed leaderboards might improve support for more obscure games. Showing more people crazy tricks on seemingly lackluster games may possibly show people the true potential of these games, and maybe raise some interest. Running a game by your sole self and no way to show people your improvements is a sad thing sometimes.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2012-11-09 08:02:01 am

I like the leader board idea, something like http://zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards. The leader board would allow for twitch quality videos alongside and without replacing SDA's current set up. I'm envisioning some what of a blend or merge of SDA and SRL where the fastest verified quality encode is featured on the game page and below it the leader board contains unverified videos of any quality.

Svenne

2012-11-09 08:14:44 am

Smörgåsbord

I agree that the verfication takes far to long and I know people who are only interested in getting a good run on SDA then go over to another game or category but these guys do stream aswell nowdays. Some of them submitted a run just to realize that one of the verfiyer was trying to beat their run as soon as the verifyer got ahold of the video. So giving each game a couple of expert-verifyers would be better then just giving anyone a shot.

Omnigamer

Edit history:

Omnigamer: 2012-11-09 08:24:13 am

2012-11-09 08:22:26 am

All the things

Quote from bangerra:

I have been noticing a trend lately that more people start running less popular/obscure games. This might be due to the 'popular' games being very saturated with good runners and seem more 'scary' to learn because of all the crazy tricks and strats. As someone who loves playing obscure (some might even say shitty) games, I find it hard to gain any interest in what I am running at any one time. Opening new threads on SDA doesn't seem to help either.
Where I'm going with this is that (though I am not sure if it will) the proposed leaderboards might improve support for more obscure games. Showing more people crazy tricks on seemingly lackluster games may possibly show people the true potential of these games, and maybe raise some interest. Running a game by your sole self and no way to show people your improvements is a sad thing sometimes.

On the first point, that's sort of how I viewed things when I joined about a year ago. I wouldn't particularly say that it's a matter of being "scared" of picking up the tricks, but well-understood games heavily favor the execution end of speedrunning and there's little room for routing/experimentation. I love games like SMW and Super Metroid, but I didn't want to pick them up when I started because I felt I would just be playing catch-up to the players who have been working on them for years. So instead I turned towards lesser known games so I could do the routing and experimentation myself (and opening it up for others). It wasn't so much about going for a record but being a pioneer.

I don't quite agree on the second point. I'm planning to make a much, much longer post elsewhere with some of my thoughts on the social aspect of speedrunning etc., but I don't feel that simply because a leaderboard exists for a game it will get more people interested in running it. Look at TG, which had a huge library of "records" for games (ignoring its other problems). The more obscure games would still sit alone with one or maybe two records listed. It wouldn't matter if the records were pathetic, there's not much drive to try to beat them or incite other people to pick it up. Leaderboards by themselves only thrive if there is that competitive component to it, and I don't feel that the "build it and they will come" philosophy applies to many games. I like the idea by itself, but I don't think it will be a catalyst for many of the obscure games.

[quote="bangerra"]I have been noticing a trend lately that more people start running less popular/obscure games. This might be due to the 'popular' games being very saturated with good runners and seem more 'scary' to learn because of all the crazy tricks and strats. As someone who loves playing obscure (some might even say shitty) games, I find it hard to gain any interest in what I am running at any one time. Opening new threads on SDA doesn't seem to help either. 
Where I'm going with this is that (though I am not sure if it will) the proposed leaderboards might improve support for more obscure games. Showing more people crazy tricks on seemingly lackluster games may possibly show people the true potential of these games, and maybe raise some interest. Running a game by your sole self and no way to show people your improvements is a sad thing sometimes.[/quote]

On the first point, that's sort of how I viewed things when I joined about a year ago. I wouldn't particularly say that it's a matter of being "scared" of picking up the tricks, but well-understood games heavily favor the execution end of speedrunning and there's little room for routing/experimentation. I love games like SMW and Super Metroid, but I didn't want to pick them up when I started because I felt I would just be playing catch-up to the players who have been working on them for years. So instead I turned towards lesser known games so I could do the routing and experimentation myself (and opening it up for others). It wasn't so much about going for a record but being a pioneer.

I don't quite agree on the second point. I'm planning to make a much, much longer post elsewhere with some of my thoughts on the social aspect of speedrunning etc., but I don't feel that simply because a leaderboard exists for a game it will get more people interested in running it. Look at TG, which had a huge library of "records" for games (ignoring its other problems). The more obscure games would still sit alone with one or maybe two records listed. It wouldn't matter if the records were pathetic, there's not much drive to try to beat them or incite other people to pick it up. Leaderboards by themselves only thrive if there is that competitive component to it, and I don't feel that the "build it and they will come" philosophy applies to many games. I like the idea by itself, but I don't think it will be a catalyst for many of the obscure games.

Zyre

Edit history:

Zyre: 2012-11-09 08:35:56 am

2012-11-09 08:35:35 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Quote from lag.com@work:

it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day..

Same here. I may not have been around for as long as lag.com, but because of my work schedule and life, I just don't have the time or desire to stream 'popular' games for so long. Heck, I'm lucky if I stream even once a month! I want to still be a part of SDA though, but the way things are going is that you're only going to get verifiers/attention by streaming popular games and/or streaming nearly every day. Something that not everyone here can or may be willing to do.

Sir VG

2012-11-09 08:39:06 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Zyre:

Quote from lag.com@work:

it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day..

Same here. I may not have been around for as long as lag.com, but because of my work schedule and life, I just don't have the time or desire to stream 'popular' games for so long. Heck, I'm lucky if I stream even once a month! I want to still be a part of SDA though, but the way things are going is that you're only going to get verifiers/attention by streaming popular games and/or streaming nearly every day. Something that not everyone here can or may be willing to do.

Sucks getting old, doesn't it?

Zyre

2012-11-09 08:40:30 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Quote from Sir VG:

Quote from Zyre:

Quote from lag.com@work:

it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day..

Same here. I may not have been around for as long as lag.com, but because of my work schedule and life, I just don't have the time or desire to stream 'popular' games for so long. Heck, I'm lucky if I stream even once a month! I want to still be a part of SDA though, but the way things are going is that you're only going to get verifiers/attention by streaming popular games and/or streaming nearly every day. Something that not everyone here can or may be willing to do.

Sucks getting old, doesn't it?

Yeah. These young'uns have no respect.

RedArremer

Edit history:

RedArremer: 2012-11-09 08:45:27 am

2012-11-09 08:44:23 am

I agree with Omnigamer regarding his point about obscure games. Leaderboards - while generally a good idea, surely - would barely improve their popularity, if at all. You might catch some viewers with 'em, being all "Yeah, I remember this game from back in the day, that was hard/terrible/whatever", but the competition in lesser known games is always going to be MUCH less than that of popular games, if they get any competition at all. Records on leaderboards or no. I mean, who really cares if you run a terrible game, or a game nobody ever heard of? Will there anybody even click on that game's leaderboards?

I think the main thing that DOES spread interest into obscure games is them getting exposition during big viewer events, mostly marathons of course, but also when done by popular streamers. I just want to point out the Chinese bootleg LttP that was shown during #smw marathon - just a couple days later, there was an influx of streamers running Chinese bootlegs, not only LttP. Just the other day there were like 3 people streaming Chinese Super Mario World at the same time.
That said, they're not a guarantee that the game will see competition. Castlevania 64 is a good example, we didn't see an influx of CV64 streamers or runs because Cosmo picked it up.

I agree with Omnigamer regarding his point about obscure games. Leaderboards - while generally a good idea, surely - would barely improve their popularity, if at all. You might catch some viewers with 'em, being all "Yeah, I remember this game from back in the day, that was hard/terrible/whatever", but the competition in lesser known games is always going to be MUCH less than that of popular games, if they get any competition at all. Records on leaderboards or no. I mean, who really cares if you run a terrible game, or a game nobody ever heard of? Will there anybody even click on that game's leaderboards?

I think the main thing that DOES spread interest into obscure games is them getting exposition during big viewer events, mostly marathons of course, but also when done by popular streamers. I just want to point out the Chinese bootleg LttP that was shown during #smw marathon - just a couple days later, there was an influx of streamers running Chinese bootlegs, not only LttP. Just the other day there were like 3 people streaming Chinese Super Mario World [i]at the same time[/i].
That said, they're not a guarantee that the game will see competition. Castlevania 64 is a good example, we didn't see an influx of CV64 streamers or runs because Cosmo picked it up.

ssskinner

2012-11-09 08:53:18 am

every game is a horror game

Quote from Zyre:

Quote from lag.com@work:

it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day..

Same here. I may not have been around for as long as lag.com, but because of my work schedule and life, I just don't have the time or desire to stream 'popular' games for so long. Heck, I'm lucky if I stream even once a month! I want to still be a part of SDA though, but the way things are going is that you're only going to get verifiers/attention by streaming popular games and/or streaming nearly every day. Something that not everyone here can or may be willing to do.

Anyone who streams 15 hours a day will be more popular than someone who streams once a month, regardless of content. The important part is feeling like you're doing something, not how many people watch you. You helped out at the Spooktacular marathon and raised a bunch of money, Zyre. You should feel good about that. Worry about having fun, not how many people are watching you. People who are worried about quantity of people following them...if that's the reason you're streaming, idk what to tell you

[quote="Zyre"][quote="lag.com@work"]it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day..[/quote]
Same here. I may not have been around for as long as lag.com, but because of my work schedule and life, I just don't have the time or desire to stream 'popular' games for so long. Heck, I'm lucky if I stream even once a month! I want to still be a part of SDA though, but the way things are going is that you're only going to get verifiers/attention by streaming popular games and/or streaming nearly every day. Something that not everyone here can or may be willing to do.[/quote]

Anyone who streams 15 hours a day will be more popular than someone who streams once a month, regardless of content. The important part is feeling like you're doing something, not how many people watch you. You helped out at the Spooktacular marathon and raised a bunch of money, Zyre. You should feel good about that. Worry about having fun, not how many people are watching you. People who are worried about quantity of people following them...if that's the reason you're streaming, idk what to tell you

Brossentia

2012-11-09 08:55:21 am

No pain, no gain

I gotta say, I love the idea of a leaderboard. Sounds like it'll be an awesome idea, and I really like the idea of having links to videos (even if they're Twitch recordings). The thing is, I love watching Twitch recordings -- I often get to hear the reaction and excitement of a runner, and this adds a lot to the thrill of the run. If people were able to get this rolling so it was updated on a consistent basis, then it would be a huge benefit for the community.

SDA doesn't claim to host WR videos. However, I think the massive influx of people from marathons and elsewhere has caused a few misconceptions about the site. Should the site change in order to clarify things, or would it be better to adapt to the people coming in? I don't really know. There would be problems either way.

With that said, I stream games that pretty much no one runs, and I'm lucky if I get over five viewers. I'm fine with that. I enjoy chatting with those people, and it gives me a chance to have fun with friends. I don't think popularity with these obscure games is important at all, and if I became popular for playing them, I'd be shocked.

Popularity can be important for some people, but that's not the point of this site. If you want to become popular through playing Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, that's your job. And it might be possible, sure. Just don't expect a site to give that to you. If anything, I'm a joke -- the "hardest jump" dude who ran Athena in his pajamas -- and I'm completely okay with that. Makes me feel less responsible for being perfect Smiley

I gotta say, I love the idea of a leaderboard.  Sounds like it'll be an awesome idea, and I really like the idea of having links to videos (even if they're Twitch recordings).  The thing is, I love watching Twitch recordings -- I often get to hear the reaction and excitement of a runner, and this adds a lot to the thrill of the run.  If people were able to get this rolling so it was updated on a consistent basis, then it would be a huge benefit for the community.

SDA doesn't claim to host WR videos.  However, I think the massive influx of people from marathons and elsewhere has caused a few misconceptions about the site.  Should the site change in order to clarify things, or would it be better to adapt to the people coming in?  I don't really know.  There would be problems either way.

With that said, I stream games that pretty much no one runs, and I'm lucky if I get over five viewers.  I'm fine with that.  I enjoy chatting with those people, and it gives me a chance to have fun with friends.  I don't think popularity with these obscure games is important at all, and if I became popular for playing them, I'd be shocked.

Popularity can be important for some people, but that's not the point of this site.  If you want to become popular through playing [i]Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure[/i], that's your job.  And it might be possible, sure.  Just don't expect a site to give that to you.  If anything, I'm a joke -- the "hardest jump" dude who ran [i]Athena[/i] in his pajamas -- and I'm completely okay with that.  Makes me feel less responsible for being perfect :)

Zyre

Edit history:

Zyre: 2012-11-09 09:01:51 am

2012-11-09 08:59:07 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

Quote from ssskinner:

Anyone who streams 15 hours a day will be more popular than someone who streams once a month, regardless of content. The important part is feeling like you're doing something, not how many people watch you. You helped out at the Spooktacular marathon and raised a bunch of money, Zyre. You should feel good about that. Worry about having fun, not how many people are watching you. People who are worried about quantity of people following them...if that's the reason you're streaming, idk what to tell you

That really is a good point. And I really shouldn't worry about how many people are following me (I didn't before, so I don't know why I worry now). I guess I'm just having a 'mid-speedrunning crisis' moment, trying to figure out where I fit in this whole 'is streaming going to be standard' deal.

Quote from Brossentia:

With that said, I stream games that pretty much no one runs, and I'm lucky if I get over five viewers. I'm fine with that. I enjoy chatting with those people, and it gives me a chance to have fun with friends. I don't think popularity with these obscure games is important at all, and if I became popular for playing them, I'd be shocked.

Popularity can be important for some people, but that's not the point of this site. If you want to become popular through playing Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, that's your job. And it might be possible, sure. Just don't expect a site to give that to you. If anything, I'm a joke -- the "hardest jump" dude who ran Athena in his pajamas -- and I'm completely okay with that. Makes me feel less responsible for being perfect Smiley

Curse you for making me feel better! Tongue

[quote="ssskinner"]Anyone who streams 15 hours a day will be more popular than someone who streams once a month, regardless of content. The important part is feeling like you're doing something, not how many people watch you. You helped out at the Spooktacular marathon and raised a bunch of money, Zyre. You should feel good about that. Worry about having fun, not how many people are watching you. People who are worried about quantity of people following them...if that's the reason you're streaming, idk what to tell you[/quote]
That really is a good point. And I really shouldn't worry about how many people are following me (I didn't before, so I don't know why I worry now). I guess I'm just having a 'mid-speedrunning crisis' moment, trying to figure out where I fit in this whole 'is streaming going to be standard' deal.

[quote="Brossentia"]With that said, I stream games that pretty much no one runs, and I'm lucky if I get over five viewers.  I'm fine with that.  I enjoy chatting with those people, and it gives me a chance to have fun with friends.  I don't think popularity with these obscure games is important at all, and if I became popular for playing them, I'd be shocked.

Popularity can be important for some people, but that's not the point of this site.  If you want to become popular through playing [i]Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure[/i], that's your job.  And it might be possible, sure.  Just don't expect a site to give that to you.  If anything, I'm a joke -- the "hardest jump" dude who ran [i]Athena[/i] in his pajamas -- and I'm completely okay with that.  Makes me feel less responsible for being perfect :)[/quote]
Curse you for making me feel better! :P

SMK

Edit history:

SMK: 2012-11-09 09:09:00 am

SMK: 2012-11-09 09:08:48 am

2012-11-09 09:05:54 am

On giving less-known games more exposure: Gah, omnigamer, you totally stole the point I was going to make. (Edit: and yes, that's how long I've been composing this mess). Anyways, my take is that: giving a common place for any game to receive exposure and gain interest is part of the purpose of the SDA forums itself; we're a collection of like-minded people, and you post a topic in the hopes of catching the eyes of other people who would like to see more/contribute. Hell, the Casual Speedrunning subforums' entire conception was to be just that: a place for informal leaderboards for people who don't really plan to submit a run to SDA, but still want to put their work out there and gain exposure/discussion. The problem I think is visibility; only the most popular games get noticed, and I don't know if having a dedicated leaderboards is going to change that, unless its implemented with a really aggressive recommendation system or something, that really highlights lesser-known games in some meaningful way (perhaps with some kind of social-media aspect where you can recommend specific games/runs to other people, but then you're re-implementing facebook).

Re Open Verification: Linus' Law (the first definition, and the article does a good job of illustrating both sides of the coin). I don't really have much to add, other than I think experimenting with the idea is the absolute best thing we can do right now.

Quote from Zyre:

Quote from Sir VG:

Quote from Zyre:

Quote from lag.com@work:

it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day..

Same here. I may not have been around for as long as lag.com, but because of my work schedule and life, I just don't have the time or desire to stream 'popular' games for so long. Heck, I'm lucky if I stream even once a month! I want to still be a part of SDA though, but the way things are going is that you're only going to get verifiers/attention by streaming popular games and/or streaming nearly every day. Something that not everyone here can or may be willing to do.

Sucks getting old, doesn't it?

Yeah. These young'uns have no respect.

I don't even think age has anything to do with it: I'm 22 for fuck's sakes and I feel the same way. Part of it feels like a shift (or a perceived shift) in some respects from speedrunning being a project (e.g. my goal is to get game X onto the SDA front page) to being a life-style (e.g. I stream 1-3 hours of running game X (or games X, Y, Z, and sometimes W and ...) every day), and SDA, to me at least, was built very much in terms of the former. I still love the former view of it, and I feel like SDA is really one of the only places out there that really fosters this view. The problem is that I don't know how well SDA can grow to support both, since the former is what encourages the strict verification, high-quality video, process, and the other requires fast turnaround at all times to keep up with the pace.

Quote from ssskinner:

Anyone who streams 15 hours a day will be more popular than someone who streams once a month, regardless of content. The important part is feeling like you're doing something, not how many people watch you. You helped out at the Spooktacular marathon and raised a bunch of money, Zyre. You should feel good about that. Worry about having fun, not how many people are watching you. People who are worried about quantity of people following them...if that's the reason you're streaming, idk what to tell you

My average viewer count is something on the order of 5 people, and I don't really care all that much. I feel the problem is that, as a result of this shift, everyone is only watching streams, and nobody is checking the forums. Nobody will really take any notice of the more understated successes that come with coming up with a clever route or a trick for a game from scratch (i.e. when the game is relatively unknown), and possibly offer their advice/encouragement if it interests them.

I don't know, maybe I just sound like someone who's complaining about rock and roll screwing up all the teenagers. Edit: And that ended up being really long, sorry.

On giving less-known games more exposure: Gah, omnigamer, you totally stole the point I was going to make. (Edit: and yes, that's how long I've been composing this mess). Anyways, my take is that: giving a common place for any game to receive exposure and gain interest is part of the purpose of the SDA forums itself; we're a collection of like-minded people, and you post a topic in the hopes of catching the eyes of other people who would like to see more/contribute.  Hell, the Casual Speedrunning subforums' entire conception was to be just that: a place for informal leaderboards for people who don't really plan to submit a run to SDA, but still want to put their work out there and gain exposure/discussion.  The problem I think is visibility; only the most popular games get noticed, and I don't know if having a dedicated leaderboards is going to change that, unless its implemented with a really aggressive recommendation system or something, that really highlights lesser-known games in some meaningful way (perhaps with some kind of social-media aspect where you can recommend specific games/runs to other people, but then you're re-implementing facebook).

Re Open Verification: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus'_Law"]Linus' Law[/url] (the first definition, and the article does a good job of illustrating both sides of the coin).  I don't really have much to add, other than I think experimenting with the idea is the absolute best thing we can do right now.

[quote="Zyre"][quote="Sir VG"][quote="Zyre"][quote="lag.com@work"]it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day..[/quote]
Same here. I may not have been around for as long as lag.com, but because of my work schedule and life, I just don't have the time or desire to stream 'popular' games for so long. Heck, I'm lucky if I stream even once a month! I want to still be a part of SDA though, but the way things are going is that you're only going to get verifiers/attention by streaming popular games and/or streaming nearly every day. Something that not everyone here can or may be willing to do.[/quote]

Sucks getting old, doesn't it?[/quote]
Yeah. These young'uns have no respect.[/quote]
I don't even think age has anything to do with it: I'm 22 for fuck's sakes and I feel the same way.  Part of it feels like a shift (or a perceived shift) in some respects from speedrunning being a project (e.g. my goal is to get game X onto the SDA front page) to being a life-style (e.g. I stream 1-3 hours of running game X (or games X, Y, Z, and sometimes W and ...) every day), and SDA, to me at least, was built very much in terms of the former.  I still love the former view of it, and I feel like SDA is really one of the only places out there that really fosters this view.  The problem is that I don't know how well SDA can grow to support both, since the former is what encourages the strict verification, high-quality video, process, and the other requires fast turnaround at all times to keep up with the pace.

[quote="ssskinner"]
Anyone who streams 15 hours a day will be more popular than someone who streams once a month, regardless of content. The important part is feeling like you're doing something, not how many people watch you. You helped out at the Spooktacular marathon and raised a bunch of money, Zyre. You should feel good about that. Worry about having fun, not how many people are watching you. People who are worried about quantity of people following them...if that's the reason you're streaming, idk what to tell you[/quote]
My average viewer count is something on the order of 5 people, and I don't really care all that much.  I feel the problem is that, as a result of this shift, everyone is only watching streams, and nobody is checking the forums.  Nobody will really take any notice of the more understated successes that come with coming up with a clever route or a trick for a game from scratch (i.e. when the game is relatively unknown), and possibly offer their advice/encouragement if it interests them.

I don't know, maybe I just sound like someone who's complaining about rock and roll screwing up all the teenagers.  Edit: And that ended up being really long, sorry.

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2012-11-09 09:08:54 am

Svenne: 2012-11-09 09:08:22 am

2012-11-09 09:07:05 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from ssskinner:

I just want to say that, to me, this perceived "rift" between SRL http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/continuation_of_roundtable_discussion_38.html#and SDA has nothing to do with either site. Some people from SDA have felt harassed and bullied by members of SRL -- but I also think it's not being done in the name of either site. Some of the people being attacked and some of the people attacking aren't affiliated with either side and the harassment isn't going on due to the placement, as it were, of each member on each site.

I love being bullied: by #SMW on http://deanyd.net/smw/qdb/index.php?p=top and on YouTube on some SRL classic list: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3207CF9B03F08D09 Number 81 Wink

but that is just me

But we already have so many different leaderboards on different sites for certain games, it should continue that way. Not like I am gonna trade redcandle.us for anything els.

mike89

2012-11-09 09:10:33 am

SEGA Junkie

Thanks everyone for your constructive thoughts!

I'll respond to a bunch of people in the morning, but I just have to say this:

Chumlum, Svenne: Please refrain from further posting in this topic unless you're going to make actual contributions.

Zyre

Edit history:

Zyre: 2012-11-09 09:24:37 am

2012-11-09 09:14:23 am

The Speedrunning Teacher

I think SMK captured what I was feeling and expressed it better than I could. I'm much more eloquent in my classroom than in here. Tongue

presjpolk

2012-11-09 09:29:22 am

HELLO!

Not to be contrary, but I stream two relatively unpopular games, weekends. And I don't have a huge following, but I have some regulars.

But I worked hard on my setup, I have a camera going, as well as okay (but not great) audio. I bought a microphone so at least my commentary would be picked up well, and I work hard trying to keep the commentary going.

Effort is rewarded if the game you're running is at all worth anything. Not everyone is going to get the kind of following a Cosmo or a Funkdoc get, but to me, it's worth it if I have a few people to chat with, to keep my mind active, and to keep me focused and improving. It's fun.

Worn_Traveler

2012-11-09 09:34:43 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

I haven't had a chance to watch the roundtable yet but I've spent a few hours stewing on a few things.

1. Emulators are fine for casual runs but for an SDA run, absolutely not. While emulation has improved for many systems, there is still uber minute differences in some speeds and games also lag at different places than they would on a console. Also, console only keeps the playing field more even. There's no debates over the exact dump or emulator to use.

2. With all this talk of PB's and "WR's" possibly coming in from SRL, do the two types of runs really match? I'm not super familiar with SRL (I rarely lurk there) but are their Any%, 100%, Low%, etc categoreis the same as SDA's for the games? We could be talking about two different sets of criteria here.

3. For those who have been paying attention, runs have been getting verified and posted significantly faster over the last few months. The verification time window is smaller (and the verifiers are not just the first couple people to PM Flip) so people can't just sit on their butts and reply five months later. Some runs do take longer to verify but the system has improved and is working. We could try public verification but the private system is better than ever.

I honestly don't know where I stand on the leaderboard, but I do know that quality and run integrity should always trump quantity on SDA. I'm not sure who said we need to change. SDA isn't perfect, but it's not broken either. Let's not point fingers though or cause grief and drama. There are always improvements that can be made but sweeping change is not always the best.

I haven't had a chance to watch the roundtable yet but I've spent a few hours stewing on a few things.

1. Emulators are fine for casual runs but for an SDA run, absolutely not. While emulation has improved for many systems, there is still uber minute differences in some speeds and games also lag at different places than they would on a console. Also, console only keeps the playing field more even. There's no debates over the exact dump or emulator to use.

2. With all this talk of PB's and "WR's" possibly coming in from SRL, do the two types of runs really match? I'm not super familiar with SRL (I rarely lurk there) but are their Any%, 100%, Low%, etc categoreis the same as SDA's for the games? We could be talking about two different sets of criteria here.

3. For those who have been paying attention, runs have been getting verified and posted significantly faster over the last few months. The verification time window is smaller (and the verifiers are [i]not[/i]  just the first couple people to PM Flip) so people can't just sit on their butts and reply five months later. Some runs do take longer to verify but the system has improved and is working. We could try public verification but the private system is better than ever.

I honestly don't know where I stand on the leaderboard, but I do know that quality and run integrity should always trump quantity on SDA. I'm not sure who said we need to change. SDA isn't perfect, but it's not broken either. Let's not point fingers though or cause grief and drama. There are always improvements that can be made but sweeping change is not always the best.

Darkwing Duck

2012-11-09 10:21:30 am

Highly Evolved

The "project" versus "lifestyle" dynamic that SMK brought up is an interesting one, though I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive, and the popular and unpopular game (and streamer, for that matter) aren't really the crux, either. The biggest issue has to be the delay is uploading runs to the site.

Take Rygar. If someone would have been restricted to just SDA and its forum, then that person would not have seen the amazing competition that Feasel and I had over a three to four month stretch that including a ton of planning and testing (the project part) and regular streaming (lifestyle) using collaboration much more efficient than forum posting. Fortunately, TSSB was in existence and could, to some extent, document the back and forth we had in dropping the time as well as create a bit of buzz about the game and competition we were having, which helped oil the strong amount of hype Rygar had during SGDQ (look at the chat logs and see how guys like Sinister and other displayed that hype).

Fast forward to now, several months after either of us have touched the game, and the end result is still not on SDA. When it's released, it'll likely be an afterthought, and any buzz the game might have had has diminished to nothing, which makes the run being posted on SDA more of a footnote than the the goal at this point. Two years ago, the goal was to be published on SDA. My first run that was accepted, Tetris Attack (since obsoleted), was completed in May or late April and posted in late June, if memory serves. And that was even with the possible delay of Mike going on vacation to Europe. Now, that month and a half time frame is the absolute minimum amount of time for half of the submission process, and that's disheartening. Now the goal seems to be getting that end time, and getting published on SDA just doesn't seem as significant anymore.

Furthermore, in regards to the concept of leaderboards, that same restricted SDA member would have little to no knowledge of how much effort, time, and ability Feasel put into the game with absolutely no recognition save for the runner comments that are sidenotes and completely optional for that member to read upon viewing the video. Had SDA a leaderboard of some sense, the runners who end up without the better time can feel more like and be seen as more of a contributing then the way SDA is currently going.

The "project" versus "lifestyle" dynamic that SMK brought up is an interesting one, though I don't think the two have to be mutually exclusive, and the popular and unpopular game (and streamer, for that matter) aren't really the crux, either.  The biggest issue has to be the delay is uploading runs to the site.

Take Rygar.  If someone would have been restricted to just SDA and its forum, then that person would not have seen the amazing competition that Feasel and I had over a three to four month stretch that including a ton of planning and testing (the project part) and regular streaming (lifestyle) using collaboration much more efficient than forum posting.  Fortunately, TSSB was in existence and could, to some extent, document the back and forth we had in dropping the time as well as create a bit of buzz about the game and competition we were having, which helped oil the strong amount of hype Rygar had during SGDQ (look at the chat logs and see how guys like Sinister and other displayed that hype).

Fast forward to now, several months after either of us have touched the game, and the end result is still not on SDA.  When it's released, it'll likely be an afterthought, and any buzz the game might have had has diminished to nothing, which makes the run being posted on SDA more of a footnote than the the goal at this point.  Two years ago, the goal was to be published on SDA.  My first run that was accepted, Tetris Attack (since obsoleted), was completed in May or late April and posted in late June, if memory serves.  And that was even with the possible delay of Mike going on vacation to Europe.  Now, that month and a half time frame is the absolute minimum amount of time for [i]half[/i] of the submission process, and that's disheartening.  Now the goal seems to be getting that end time, and getting published on SDA just doesn't seem as significant anymore.

Furthermore, in regards to the concept of leaderboards, that same restricted SDA member would have little to no knowledge of how much effort, time, and ability Feasel put into the game with absolutely no recognition save for the runner comments that are sidenotes and completely optional for that member to read upon viewing the video.  Had SDA a leaderboard of some sense, the runners who end up without the better time can feel more like and be seen as more of a contributing then the way SDA is currently going.

doicm

2012-11-09 10:37:27 am

Regarding an episode I saw a few weeks back on TSSB, I think public verification worked well. The case was a Super Mario Bros. run that was uploaded to Youtube with the time of 4:57. Although it was pretty obvious that the runner cheated, that system of public verification worked pretty well there. However, for less popular games, public verification might be more difficult.

...that's all.

Youkai

2012-11-09 12:02:42 pm

Don't know what to speedrun :(

I watched some of the round table and I want to make sure someone says that the high quality video is a huge draw for me. I can watch crappy recordings anywhere. I like that when I watch a video from SDA I get a good quality video and it sometimes has a good quality audio commentary (as opposed to whatever was being said during the stream). I hope that doesn't go away.

presjpolk

2012-11-09 12:15:52 pm

HELLO!

I agree with those who say the quality is a draw. Which is why I think if a Twitch-friendly, community-verified system starts up, it may be wise to give it a different brand. The SDA brand may have problems with the guys who don't care about the quality, but I'd like to think it means something with those who do.

Paraxade

2012-11-09 12:51:04 pm

Some good points made here... I think our issue is primarily that we don't offer anything to the community anymore. SDA's draw used to be verification and high-quality video, but the speedrunning community and technology in general has changed since then. The community does a pretty good job of verifying itself, for the most part, and high-quality video isn't a big deal anymore; YouTube quality used to be something that people joked about, but now you can upload videos at higher resolutions than 1080p and actually get pretty damn good video quality.

So in my mind, the question is: what purpose is SDA trying to serve? And how can it service the community in a way that only SDA is in a position to do?

On the other hand, I wonder what would happen to speedrunning if SDA were to die off (which hopefully it won't). SRL and Twitch put more emphasis on live competition and attempting the run than actually getting a finished product; SDA is the only place that's all about the finished product.

Some good points made here... I think our issue is primarily that we don't offer anything to the community anymore. SDA's draw used to be verification and high-quality video, but the speedrunning community and technology in general has changed since then. The community does a pretty good job of verifying itself, for the most part, and high-quality video isn't a big deal anymore; YouTube quality used to be something that people joked about, but now you can upload videos at higher resolutions than 1080p and actually get pretty damn good video quality.

So in my mind, the question is: what purpose is SDA trying to serve? And how can it service the community in a way that only SDA is in a position to do?

On the other hand, I wonder what would happen to speedrunning if SDA were to die off (which hopefully it won't). SRL and Twitch put more emphasis on live competition and attempting the run than actually getting a finished product; SDA is the only place that's all about the finished product.

UraniumAnchor

2012-11-09 01:42:33 pm

Not a walrus

The three biggest remaining issues with Youtube:

1) It drops 60fps video to 30. This makes flickering effects not work properly for older games, but it's not as important for newer games, which is somewhat ironic.
2) No secondary audio track(s) for commentary.
3) No easy way to download the video.

I'm hoping that once things settle out with the new queue a bit, the lag times between submission and posting will also drop by a lot. I've already seen the average verification time drop by a huge amount since more of the mundane tasks got automated.