Continuation of Roundtable Discussion

2012-11-08 11:05:30 pm

SEGA Junkie

So many of you will know that I held a roundtable discussion with Mike, Breakdown, Josh, Garrison and sinister1 earlier today where we talked about the state of SDA and its relation to the speedrunning community. The whole archive is here: http://www.twitch.tv/mike89sda/b/338711373 (starts about 28 minutes in). We summarised it about 5 minutes from the end, but the main talking points were around:
* The gap between submission and publication - we discussed the merits of open verification, and of using Twitch/Youtube videos as placeholders for submitted SDA runs until they are verified
* The (perceived) rift between SDA and SRL - there's not really any forceful way to change people's perceptions, but I feel like if SDA is a place more SRL people feel like they can submit runs to then the differences will largely look after themselves

This is a continuation from that, both for us to explain the positions that we've taken in more detail and for people who weren't part of the discussion to offer their thoughts. I want to stress the importance of being civil in this topic, however - nobody's going to listen to anyone who just throws insults around to get their point across.

Thread title:

So many of you will know that I held a roundtable discussion with Mike, Breakdown, Josh, Garrison and sinister1 earlier today where we talked about the state of SDA and its relation to the speedrunning community. The whole archive is here: http://www.twitch.tv/mike89sda/b/338711373 (starts about 28 minutes in). We summarised it about 5 minutes from the end, but the main talking points were around:
* The gap between submission and publication - we discussed the merits of open verification, and of using Twitch/Youtube videos as placeholders for submitted SDA runs until they are verified
* The (perceived) rift between SDA and SRL - there's not really any forceful way to change people's perceptions, but I feel like if SDA is a place more SRL people feel like they can submit runs to then the differences will largely look after themselves

This is a continuation from that, both for us to explain the positions that we've taken in more detail and for people who weren't part of the discussion to offer their thoughts. I want to stress the importance of being civil in this topic, however - nobody's going to listen to anyone who just throws insults around to get their point across.

jape

2012-11-08 11:13:05 pm

hi well speaking as srl guy theres no rift or whatever, just lot of srl people think the time it takes to get run on the front page negates any reason to submit, which was talked about at length. sda and srl have so much overlap p. much anyone should know its not a War or w/e. theres lot of like mentality diferences on things like Chat Modding or like, the nintendo 64 being cool, but i think 99.9% of ppl want both sites to do well and have things 4 everybody. well thanks

wersterlobe

2012-11-09 12:07:31 am

Prior to this roundtable happening, mike and I had a few minor discussions about what was going on. He explained his red flag, I'll give a few example as to what set me off.

One day I was streaming, and my recording broke about 2 hours into a run. The end went on to beat my goal time, and I explained to everyone that I had to continue to play the game until I got a better time as my recording messed up. About 2% of my chat understood why, the rest of the people would respond with:

"Why does it matter? Who cares about the quality? We all know it's legit"
"SDA lol you'd beat that time before it got up there anyway"

Pretty much the basic idea is that speedrunning is becoming a lot more popular with twitch. If SDA is to remain relevant, it needs to evolve and incorporate the fact that streaming speedruns is a thing now into their system.

I put forward two ideas for this:

#1) If a run is recorded on twitch, and is better than an onsite run, the local recording of this run should be able to be put up pretty much instantly. Streaming cuts out pretty much all of the "cheating" etc that verification is meant to cut down

#2) Have a seperate sub-division somewhere on the site (my example was to have a link on each game page, not sure how feasible this is) where you can directly submit a time with a twitch link to this video, as a placeholder until the run goes onto the site.

There are more issues with the first idea, so I personally prefer the second. Timing etc is obviously an issue, but I only speedrun games that use ingame timer at the moment, so I can't really envision how much of an issue this is etc. There is also a bunch of "behind the scenes" crap that few people know of/care about that should probably be cut out, from what I can gather.

Like, people don't submit times until they are perfect now because they know they will beat the run before it goes up. As such, that's going to keep obsolete runs on SDA even longer, because better ones aren't even being submitted.

There needs to be some sort of almost, not immediately, but almost instantaneous reaction time for submitting times, otherwise SDA will become even more irrelevant than it is now in speedrunning, and will eventually just become a place to host videos of gaming, not speed gaming.

I guess the next question to ask; is everyone ok with this? Does SDA want to just be a small tightly nit community that falls away from the evolution that speedrunning is taking. If that's so, that's cool. If not, a big change needs to be made, not just little tweaks.

Prior to this roundtable happening, mike and I had a few minor discussions about what was going on. He explained his red flag, I'll give a few example as to what set me off.

One day I was streaming, and my recording broke about 2 hours into a run. The end went on to beat my goal time, and I explained to everyone that I had to continue to play the game until I got a better time as my recording messed up. About 2% of my chat understood why, the rest of the people would respond with:

"Why does it matter? Who cares about the quality? We all know it's legit"
"SDA lol you'd beat that time before it got up there anyway"

Pretty much the basic idea is that speedrunning is becoming a lot more popular with twitch. If SDA is to remain relevant, it needs to evolve and incorporate the fact that streaming speedruns is a thing now into their system.

I put forward two ideas for this:

#1) If a run is recorded on twitch, and is better than an onsite run, the local recording of this run should be able to be put up pretty much instantly. Streaming cuts out pretty much all of the "cheating" etc that verification is meant to cut down

#2) Have a seperate sub-division somewhere on the site (my example was to have a link on each game page, not sure how feasible this is) where you can directly submit a time with a twitch link to this video, as a placeholder until the run goes onto the site.

There are more issues with the first idea, so I personally prefer the second. Timing etc is obviously an issue, but I only speedrun games that use ingame timer at the moment, so I can't really envision how much of an issue this is etc. There is also a bunch of "behind the scenes" crap that few people know of/care about that should probably be cut out, from what I can gather.

Like, people don't submit times until they are perfect now because they know they will beat the run before it goes up. As such, that's going to keep obsolete runs on SDA even longer, because better ones aren't even being submitted.

There needs to be some sort of almost, not immediately, but almost instantaneous reaction time for submitting times, otherwise SDA will become even more irrelevant than it is now in speedrunning, and will eventually just become a place to host videos of gaming, not speed gaming.

I guess the next question to ask; is everyone ok with this? Does SDA want to just be a small tightly nit community that falls away from the evolution that speedrunning is taking. If that's so, that's cool. If not, a big change needs to be made, not just little tweaks.

Freezard

Edit history:

Freezard: 2012-11-09 12:42:13 am

2012-11-09 12:40:47 am

I like that second idea of letting people submit new times/videos on the front page or so (in a side-frame somewhere, not on the front front page), but there's a big problem that comes with it. That place will be flooded with new submissions all the time, just take a look at TSSB where people submit new records constantly even if it's only a very minor improvement. If it's a new game when it comes to speedrunning, then people won't know what is a good time or not so imagine they submit a time they think is good, people start voting/comment for the verification (I assume you meant there will be public verification as well), a day later a new time is submitted and well things will get messy.

I just don't think having high quality videos and keeping up with all the speedrunning news at the same time is possible. It could work if people were verifying the Twitch video and then once the process is over and it has been verified and timed, the runner could submit high quality videos optionally. But again, someone might post a new record in the middle of the whole process (although it can be fixed by limiting the number of submitted records for a game at any time to one), and then there are people like me who don't stream their records (although it's not a big deal to upload the runs to YouTube to serve the same purpose).

I like that second idea of letting people submit new times/videos on the front page or so (in a side-frame somewhere, not on the front front page), but there's a big problem that comes with it. That place will be flooded with new submissions all the time, just take a look at TSSB where people submit new records constantly even if it's only a very minor improvement. If it's a new game when it comes to speedrunning, then people won't know what is a good time or not so imagine they submit a time they think is good, people start voting/comment for the verification (I assume you meant there will be public verification as well), a day later a new time is submitted and well things will get messy.

I just don't think having high quality videos and keeping up with all the speedrunning news at the same time is possible. It could work if people were verifying the Twitch video and then once the process is over and it has been verified and timed, the runner could submit high quality videos optionally. But again, someone might post a new record in the middle of the whole process (although it can be fixed by limiting the number of submitted records for a game at any time to one), and then there are people like me who don't stream their records (although it's not a big deal to upload the runs to YouTube to serve the same purpose).

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2012-11-09 12:53:58 am

InsipidMuckyWater: 2012-11-09 12:52:28 am

InsipidMuckyWater: 2012-11-09 12:51:09 am

2012-11-09 12:41:09 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

I prefer to think of SDA as a site bringing the latest speedrun developments to me as a user, rather than a certification destination. To that end, I am in favor of acclimating to the current shift and figuring out a satisfying way to adapt to it.

I'm not sure I would commit to either of those ideas in their present form. I think links to external videos (if I'm understanding your proposal correctly) take away the legitimacy a hair too much, while putting up runs instantaneously is probably more accommodation than needed.

EDIT: Btw, I think having -instant- uploads is probably a bad idea. There needs to be at least some cooldown (like, let's say for now, one month). It's a good way to ensure that another run is not likely to immediately outdo the submitted run (because we'd be providing a short buffer time for superior runs to be submitted before the actual posting) and it would keep us from looking like a "speedrun channel" on Youtube without any certification process whatsoever.

I prefer to think of SDA as a site bringing the latest speedrun developments to me as a user, rather than a certification destination.  To that end, I am in favor of acclimating to the current shift and figuring out a satisfying way to adapt to it.

I'm not sure I would commit to either of those ideas in their present form.  I think links to external videos (if I'm understanding your proposal correctly) take away the legitimacy a hair too much, while putting up runs instantaneously is probably more accommodation than needed.

EDIT:  Btw, I think having -instant- uploads is probably a bad idea.  There needs to be at least [i]some[/i] cooldown (like, let's say for now, one month).  It's a good way to ensure that another run is not likely to [i]immediately[/i] outdo the submitted run (because we'd be providing a short buffer time for superior runs to be submitted before the actual posting) and it would keep us from looking like a "speedrun channel" on Youtube without any certification process whatsoever.

I have no name

2012-11-09 01:00:10 am

Obscure games ftw

The idea I proposed was sort of an amalgam of a lot of the ideas that were thrown out.

Sort of like TASVideos submission process, with a public forum with a thread for each run. People give comments on it and 1-2 "experts" (verifiers in the current sense) make sure nothing major was overlooked, that it's not a cheated run, etc. Obviously for more popular games more "experts" could be brought in.
The runs themselves would be in 1 of 3 classifications:
Early Response, the forum part. Anything glaring should be caught by the community as a whole in this phase.
Verification, the "experts" part. Pretty much the same as the verification system we have now.
Posted, which is when runs are put on the front page. Simple enough.

The implications of this are verification is now public and no longer msyterious as to what's going on. Runners have a better idea of where their run is, moreso than the queue system implemented now. People interested in the run can see everything happen as it happens and have a hand in it. Overall this should lower the run completion to run posted time down from 10 months or more to as low as 2-3 or less: even for obscure games.

Does this mean quality standards should be relaxed? Perhaps. Streaming is getting better in terms of quality and good quality streams could be submitted that way.

Where do emulators fit into this? I've talked with a few people on SRL who use emulators, and even some who don't. The overall consensus was they could see why (to prevent TASes from being submitted as legitimate runs) but disagreed with the policy about emulators being banned. The solution that was reached then (side discussion) was that emulator runs could be submitted and accepted as legitimate runs, if proof could be provided that it was played live (webcam/controllercam wold be sufficient) and the game emulated well-the latter of which is a requirement at TASVideos.

On keeping up with speedrunning news AND having high quality video, I agree that both of these are not possible to optimize, but it's likely possible to have a solid standard for both by relaxing quality standards a bit and keep up to date with a records/new submissions page-conveniently handled by the system outlined above.

Finally, to keep fully updated, perhaps games could have a leaderboard where obsoleted runs could still be viewed on-site, and even so that less-skilled players also get good runs. I'd imagine the faster ones would be the most viewed, but even the slower runs would likely have some different approaches and would overall be a compendium of high quality speedruns-which, if my interpretations are correct, is SDA's mission statement.

Well that was a wall of text, I don't think I've written anything that long in a while that wasn't speedrun notes.

The idea I proposed was sort of an amalgam of a lot of the ideas that were thrown out.

Sort of like TASVideos submission process, with a public forum with a thread for each run.  People give comments on it and 1-2 "experts" (verifiers in the current sense) make sure nothing major was overlooked, that it's not a cheated run, etc.  Obviously for more popular games more "experts" could be brought in.
The runs themselves would be in 1 of 3 classifications: 
Early Response, the forum part.  Anything glaring should be caught by the community as a whole in this phase.
Verification, the "experts" part.  Pretty much the same as the verification system we have now.
Posted, which is when runs are put on the front page.  Simple enough.

The implications of this are verification is now public and no longer msyterious as to what's going on.  Runners have a better idea of where their run is, moreso than the queue system implemented now.  People interested in the run can see everything happen as it happens and have a hand in it.  Overall this should lower the run completion to run posted time down from 10 months or more to as low as 2-3 or less: even for obscure games.

Does this mean quality standards should be relaxed?  Perhaps.  Streaming is getting better in terms of quality and good quality streams could be submitted that way.

Where do emulators fit into this?  I've talked with a few people on SRL who use emulators, and even some who don't.  The overall consensus was they could see why (to prevent TASes from being submitted as legitimate runs) but disagreed with the policy about emulators being banned.  The solution that was reached then (side discussion) was that emulator runs could be submitted and accepted as legitimate runs, if proof could be provided that it was played live (webcam/controllercam wold be sufficient) and the game emulated well-the latter of which is a requirement at TASVideos.

On keeping up with speedrunning news AND having high quality video, I agree that both of these are not possible to optimize, but it's likely possible to have a solid standard for both by relaxing quality standards a bit and keep up to date with a records/new submissions page-conveniently handled by the system outlined above.

Finally, to keep fully updated, perhaps games could have a leaderboard where obsoleted runs could still be viewed on-site, and even so that less-skilled players also get good runs.  I'd imagine the faster ones would be the most viewed, but even the slower runs would likely have some different approaches and would overall be a compendium of high quality speedruns-which, if my interpretations are correct, is SDA's mission statement.

Well that was a wall of text, I don't think I've written anything that long in a while that wasn't speedrun notes.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2012-11-09 01:20:55 am

2012-11-09 01:19:49 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Quote from I have no name:

The idea I proposed was sort of an amalgam of a lot of the ideas that were thrown out.

Sort of like TASVideos submission process, with a public forum with a thread for each run. (etc.)

That sounds like a workable system. What do others think?

Quote from I have no name:

Where do emulators fit into this? I've talked with a few people on SRL who use emulators, and even some who don't. The overall consensus was they could see why (to prevent TASes from being submitted as legitimate runs) but disagreed with the policy about emulators being banned. The solution that was reached then (side discussion) was that emulator runs could be submitted and accepted as legitimate runs, if proof could be provided that it was played live (webcam/controllercam wold be sufficient) and the game emulated well-the latter of which is a requirement at TASVideos.

Meh ..........

Quote from I have no name:

Finally, to keep fully updated, perhaps games could have a leaderboard where obsoleted runs could still be viewed on-site, and even so that less-skilled players also get good runs. I'd imagine the faster ones would be the most viewed, but even the slower runs would likely have some different approaches and would overall be a compendium of high quality speedruns-which, if my interpretations are correct, is SDA's mission statement.

The past-runs bit definitely needs to happen. Ala TASvideos or whatev

[quote="I have no name"]The idea I proposed was sort of an amalgam of a lot of the ideas that were thrown out.

Sort of like TASVideos submission process, with a public forum with a thread for each run. (etc.) [/quote]

That sounds like a workable system.  What do others think?

[quote="I have no name"]Where do emulators fit into this?  I've talked with a few people on SRL who use emulators, and even some who don't.  The overall consensus was they could see why (to prevent TASes from being submitted as legitimate runs) but disagreed with the policy about emulators being banned.  The solution that was reached then (side discussion) was that emulator runs could be submitted and accepted as legitimate runs, if proof could be provided that it was played live (webcam/controllercam wold be sufficient) and the game emulated well-the latter of which is a requirement at TASVideos.[/quote]

Meh ..........

[quote="I have no name"]Finally, to keep fully updated, perhaps games could have a leaderboard where obsoleted runs could still be viewed on-site, and even so that less-skilled players also get good runs.  I'd imagine the faster ones would be the most viewed, but even the slower runs would likely have some different approaches and would overall be a compendium of high quality speedruns-which, if my interpretations are correct, is SDA's mission statement.[/quote]

The past-runs bit definitely needs to happen.  Ala TASvideos or whatev

Paraxade

Edit history:

Paraxade: 2012-11-09 01:24:54 am

2012-11-09 01:23:58 am

I can't watch the twitch archive yet so I am just going to reply to the posts in this thread and sorry if any of this was already covered, but yeah, I think we need some big changes.

Honestly I think some of the ideas here are addressing issues that aren't actually issues. High quality videos do not take that long to encode, they aren't the bottleneck here and AFAIK they aren't really causing any problems whatsoever. I'm also very very much not a fan of the idea of allowing crap-quality twitch videos, or cutting out verification. I think verification is a good thing in the end; the only real issue with it is when it takes far longer than it should, or when a run just can't find verifiers. Those are both problems. The former can be fixed by implementing deadlines (from what I've heard, these were implemented but so far aren't being enforced). Not really sure about the latter though... As for emulators, I haven't really heard of anyone having a problem with the no-emulators rule to the extent that it would be a major issue.

Then there's usually a huuuuge gap between when a run gets accepted and when it goes on the site. I honestly have no idea what happens in that period. I know the final copies of the run get encoded, the update pages get made, and then the videos are checked for any problems before posting. A few steps, yeah, but nothing that should take as long as it does. Can't really think of anything else that would happen there that would explain such a big gap.

The submission-posting gap aside, while I don't think we should start posting twitch videos on the site, I do think acknowledging things that happen off SDA to some extent would be good, even linking to twitch archives. Maybe we can have an Unverified section for runs that haven't gone through the entire submission process or something.

Oh, and one other thing is regarding the update schedule. I think having some sort of schedule to them would help immensely - like say, if SDA updated every other Tuesday or something. There's two benefits here: first off, anyone who's not following SDA anywhere else learns that SDA updates every other week, and then they get into a habit of checking the site every other Tuesday. Frequency of content can be just as important as quality of content in terms of building a viewer base. Second, it takes out all of the uncertainty. No more complaining that it's been too long since the last update because we know exactly when the next one is happening. I think you could probably get away with having updates even less frequent than they are now if they were on a regular schedule; not that I'm advising that, but I do think there's a lot to be said for scheduling the updates.

Anyhow, I have other opinions in terms of things like the fact that the site is still using a design from the 90s, but it's probably a better idea to take care of the more important issues first.

edit: Also I'm not really thinking too well right now so sorry if I was stupid about the way I worded a couple things.

I can't watch the twitch archive yet so I am just going to reply to the posts in this thread and sorry if any of this was already covered, but yeah, I think we need some big changes.

Honestly I think some of the ideas here are addressing issues that aren't actually issues. High quality videos do not take that long to encode, they aren't the bottleneck here and AFAIK they aren't really causing any problems whatsoever. I'm also very very much not a fan of the idea of allowing crap-quality twitch videos, or cutting out verification. I think verification is a good thing in the end; the only real issue with it is when it takes far longer than it should, or when a run just can't find verifiers. Those are both problems. The former can be fixed by implementing deadlines (from what I've heard, these were implemented but so far aren't being enforced). Not really sure about the latter though... As for emulators, I haven't really heard of anyone having a problem with the no-emulators rule to the extent that it would be a major issue.

Then there's usually a huuuuge gap between when a run gets accepted and when it goes on the site. I honestly have no idea what happens in that period. I know the final copies of the run get encoded, the update pages get made, and then the videos are checked for any problems before posting. A few steps, yeah, but nothing that should take as long as it does.  Can't really think of anything else that would happen there that would explain such a big gap.

The submission-posting gap aside, while I don't think we should start posting twitch videos on the site, I do think acknowledging things that happen off SDA to some extent would be good, even linking to twitch archives. Maybe we can have an Unverified section for runs that haven't gone through the entire submission process or something.

Oh, and one other thing is regarding the update schedule. I think having some sort of schedule to them would help immensely - like say, if SDA updated every other Tuesday or something. There's two benefits here: first off, anyone who's not following SDA anywhere else learns that SDA updates every other week, and then they get into a habit of checking the site every other  Tuesday. Frequency of content can be just as important as quality of content in terms of building a viewer base. Second, it takes out all of the uncertainty. No more complaining that it's been too long since the last update because we know exactly when the next one is happening. I think you could probably get away with having updates even less frequent than they are now if they were on a regular schedule; not that I'm advising that, but I do think there's a lot to be said for scheduling the updates.

Anyhow, I have other opinions in terms of things like the fact that the site is still using a design from the 90s, but it's probably a better idea to take care of the more important issues first.

edit: Also I'm not really thinking too well right now so sorry if I was stupid about the way I worded a couple things.

Tranquilite

Edit history:

Tranquilite: 2012-11-09 01:30:20 am

Tranquilite: 2012-11-09 01:29:56 am

Tranquilite: 2012-11-09 01:29:34 am

Tranquilite: 2012-11-09 01:27:43 am

2012-11-09 01:25:47 am

One thing that I think that people don't understand is that you don't have to have the fastest run when you submit to the site (it's nice if it is though), and it certainly doesn't have to be the fastest run by the time it hits the front page. Most people who download videos from the front page don't particularly care if the run has already been beaten by 4 seconds due to a new boss strat or something, they just care that a really awesome, high quality speedrun is available. I know this has been said a lot, but Speed Demos Archive has never been a records site and as such the runs on SDA don't need to be the fastest. SDA's focus has always been to showcase high quality videos of awesome runs.

I think the problem with submissions for popular games has less to do with the length of SDA's verification process, and more to do with getting people to just submit their runs. It would obviously be nice to find ways to optimize the verification process, but when you make a site that is based on high quality standards, you cannot compromise on your core values and expect to still be the same afterwards.

Perhaps that previous statement may have been a bit too harsh, I would like to say that whatever you guys decide to do, that you keep the video quality standards. While many streams are getting nicer (60 fps and such), you just cant get the same level of quality with low bitrate real time encoding, especially when you need to deinterlace the video content.

I dont seem much problem with using a twitch recording for verification, many verification copies that I have seen have looked about the same as the average twitchs tream anyway. The only problem with this, however, is that you should still need to eventually provide a high quality version of your run before it gets posted on the site, and if any technical difficulties arise with encoding and such... PLEASE just submit quality tests before you do your runs, k? That's what the tech support forum is for.

Quote from InsipidMuckyWater:

The past-runs bit definitely needs to happen.

To some extent we already have that with the verification index, but I must admit that it is a bit harder to actually find the video for these old runs, and usually involves doing a bit digging around archive.org. Then again if you just look at how huge the index is, it makes a little more sense to see why SDA hasn't done something like this already as just keeping the index up to date is a lot of work.

One thing that I think that people don't understand is that you don't [i]have[/i] to have the fastest run when you submit to the site (it's nice if it is though), and it certainly doesn't have to be the fastest run by the time it hits the front page. Most people who download videos from the front page don't particularly care if the run has already been beaten by 4 seconds due to a new boss strat or something, they just care that a really awesome, high quality speedrun is available. I know this has been said a lot, but Speed Demos Archive has never been a records site and as such the runs on SDA don't need to be the fastest. SDA's focus has always been to showcase high quality videos of awesome runs.

I think the problem with submissions for popular games has less to do with the length of SDA's verification process, and more to do with getting people to just submit their runs. It would obviously be nice to find ways to optimize the verification process, but when you make a site that is based on high quality standards, you cannot compromise on your core values and expect to still be the same afterwards.

Perhaps that previous statement may have been a bit too harsh, I would like to say that whatever you guys decide to do, that you keep the video quality standards. While many streams are getting nicer (60 fps and such), you just cant get the same level of quality with low bitrate real time encoding, especially when you need to deinterlace the video content.

I dont seem much problem with using a twitch recording for verification, many verification copies that I have seen have looked about the same as the average twitchs tream anyway. The only problem with this, however, is that you should still need to eventually provide a high quality version of your run before it gets posted on the site, and if any technical difficulties arise with encoding and such... [size="1"]PLEASE just submit quality tests before you do your runs, k? That's what the tech support forum is for.[/size]

[quote="InsipidMuckyWater"]The past-runs bit definitely needs to happen.[/quote]
To some extent we already have that with the [url=http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/verification_index.html]verification index[/url], but I must admit that it is a bit harder to actually find the video for these old runs, and usually involves doing a bit digging around archive.org. Then again if you just look at how huge the index is, it makes a little more sense to see why SDA hasn't done something like this already as just keeping the index up to date is a lot of work.

Paraxade

Edit history:

Paraxade: 2012-11-09 01:33:14 am

2012-11-09 01:32:45 am

Quote from Tranquilite:

I think the problem with submissions for popular games has less to do with the length of SDA's verification process, and more to do with getting people to just submit their runs.

The problem is it's really demoralizing to submit a run just to have it beaten before it actually goes up because of how long SDA's process took. (This actually just happened to me with my Skyward Sword run.) I mean yes, the run doesn't -have- to be the record to go up on the site, but half the time - I'm gonna go on a limb and say most of the time - it is the record, and that's half the appeal in posting it: being able to post the best run that anyone has ever done. Nobody ever likes posting an obsolete run. Knowing that there's already an improvement and someone could very well submit a faster run before yours has its time in the sun is incredibly off-putting, and with more popular games where this happens a lot it makes perfect sense that nobody wants to submit.

Tranquilite

2012-11-09 01:48:30 am

I suppose you are right there Paraxade, but at some point is time someone HAS to submit, or the site will get no runs. At which point I guess we've hit the crux of the problem. Nobody wants to see the run they've put their blood-sweat-and-tears into obsoleted so soon after being posted, and nobody wants empty game pages. I suppose the point I am trying to make is that even though a run may have been beaten, it should not make that run any less amazing. Though that last statement does sounds kind of hollow, as speedrunning is by nature, very competitive, and it is very hard to not make comparisons.

Paraxade

2012-11-09 01:50:47 am

Nobody has to submit. That's the problem. If people lose interest in submitting to SDA and the site gets stagnant, that's SDA's problem, not theirs. If SDA fades out of relevance then nobody's going to care anymore if the game pages are empty. That's why SDA needs to be the one to make some changes. Get people respecting the site more.

Zerstorung

2012-11-09 01:55:47 am

The way I see things right now is that SDA is entering a situation that Twin Galaxies found itself in, in late 2008, with the surge of potential interest that resulted from the King of Kong film and the dilemma of how to capitalize on a growing sea of gamers who don't care about old arcade games.

With the mass of new bodies from SpeedRunsLive and Twitch, SDA is quickly losing its dominance in the hobby. Where official verification and high quality downloads were what the majority wanted when this community was much smaller, the collective interest has shifted towards a far less formal position. Now, most people are interested in the purely competitive aspect of it, and they want to do so with as little red tape as possible. Private verification is going to lose out to community self-policing, and leaderboards will win over a "not-world-record" video. Watching failed attempts while socializing with the runner or their fellow viewers is more interesting to some than sitting through the completed run.

It's becoming more and more common that people talk about submitting to SDA as being a joke, similarly to how a lot of people view TG. I feel that's because rather than reaching out to and supporting speedrunning for what it is, we're seen by some as a group that refuses to leave our bubble of bureaucracy, formalities, and traditions. I don't entirely agree with that line of thinking, myself, but I can see some bits and pieces of it. The marathons and TSSB have been great help in making the SDA name remain relevant to the growing community and keeping that from being true, but as was briefly mentioned in the main discussion, they don't really do much to encourage submissions to the site itself or make its purpose matter to runners.

Ultimately, my point is this: while expediting the turnaround from submission to publication is a huge part of the battle that may partially solve the issues of people holding off submissions while they attempt to improve, I think it's important not to overlook the fact that the speedrunning hobby is growing far beyond this site and that we can't assume that SDA is what everyone wants to submit to anymore. We need to make sure to respect the interests of both the runners and the viewers and not passively demand they fit into the social culture here to be welcome, if we really want the growth to have a positive effect on the site.

The way I see things right now is that SDA is entering a situation that Twin Galaxies found itself in, in late 2008, with the surge of potential interest that resulted from the King of Kong film and the dilemma of how to capitalize on a growing sea of gamers who don't care about old arcade games.

With the mass of new bodies from SpeedRunsLive and Twitch, SDA is quickly losing its dominance in the hobby. Where official verification and high quality downloads were what the majority wanted when this community was much smaller, the collective interest has shifted towards a far less formal position. Now, most people are interested in the purely competitive aspect of it, and they want to do so with as little red tape as possible. Private verification is going to lose out to community self-policing, and leaderboards will win over a "not-world-record" video. Watching failed attempts while socializing with the runner or their fellow viewers is more interesting to some than sitting through the completed run.

It's becoming more and more common that people talk about submitting to SDA as being a joke, similarly to how a lot of people view TG. I feel that's because rather than reaching out to and supporting speedrunning for what it is, we're seen by some as a group that refuses to leave our bubble of bureaucracy, formalities, and traditions. I don't entirely agree with that line of thinking, myself, but I can see some bits and pieces of it. The marathons and TSSB have been great help in making the SDA name remain relevant to the growing community and keeping that from being true, but as was briefly mentioned in the main discussion, they don't really do much to encourage submissions to the site itself or make its purpose matter to runners.

Ultimately, my point is this: while expediting the turnaround from submission to publication is a huge part of the battle that may partially solve the issues of people holding off submissions while they attempt to improve, I think it's important not to overlook the fact that the speedrunning hobby is growing far beyond this site and that we can't assume that SDA is what everyone wants to submit to anymore. We need to make sure to respect the interests of both the runners and the viewers and not passively demand they fit into the social culture here to be welcome, if we really want the growth to have a positive effect on the site.

CosmoWright

2012-11-09 02:12:23 am

sad I missed this live.

i have plans for a leaderboard system (which mike89 mentioned in the vod) and I do intend to give it a try.

SDA has never been a records site but I've always sort of wanted it to be. not like, THIS IS THE OFFICIAL WORLD RECORD™, but rather an up to date listing of non-cheated RTAs (in leaderboard format ideally). currently there's nothing like this that encompasses all of speedrunning (there are some Japanese wikis but they are missing out on a huge number of international players).

I feel like SDA isn't like this because it was founded at a time when there were very few runs, and you couldn't just upload your 5 hour run in HQ to youtube. SDA was amazing for the speedrunning community at that point in time. now with tons of records being broken every week, not to mention tons of personal bests which currently have no place to really get posted I feel like a leaderboard structure would be awesome not only to quell the never-ending people asking "what is the record?" but also a place to be proud of your accomplishments.

I feel like the leaderboard system is too radical of a change from the system SDA has built over years of being the center of the speedrunning community, so I don't think this idea will really get pursued enough by the SDA admins to happen on the SDA end. I don't want to appear as an enemy to SDA or something silly like that but I have a lot drawn out already + I've talked to a lot of people and I really want to give it a try on the SRL end.

<3 speedrunning and all of you.

sad I missed this live.

i have plans for a leaderboard system (which mike89 mentioned in the vod) and I do intend to give it a try.

SDA has never been a records site but I've always sort of wanted it to be. not like, THIS IS THE OFFICIAL WORLD RECORD™, but rather an up to date listing of non-cheated RTAs (in leaderboard format ideally). currently there's nothing like this that encompasses all of speedrunning (there are some Japanese wikis but they are missing out on a huge number of international players).

I feel like SDA isn't like this because it was founded at a time when there were very few runs, and you couldn't just upload your 5 hour run in HQ to youtube. SDA was amazing for the speedrunning community at that point in time. now with tons of records being broken every week, not to mention tons of personal bests which currently have no place to really get posted I feel like a leaderboard structure would be awesome not only to quell the never-ending people asking "what is the record?" but also a place to be proud of your accomplishments.

I feel like the leaderboard system is too radical of a change from the system SDA has built over years of being the center of the speedrunning community, so I don't think this idea will really get pursued enough by the SDA admins to happen on the SDA end. I don't want to appear as an enemy to SDA or something silly like that but I have a lot drawn out already + I've talked to a lot of people and I really want to give it a try on the SRL end.

<3 speedrunning and all of you.

presjpolk

2012-11-09 04:06:04 am

HELLO!

First, I want to say it's so great for the community for a big discussion like this to be had out in the open, where other stakeholders can take part. I'm not really much of a stakeholder yet, but I'd like to think I'm going to get there as I get better at the speed running thing. Smiley

As for verification, if you read the verification forum, people who are streaming seem to get verified pretty easily. The verifiers even say it: "I watched this run live and..." or "I watched the runner going through the attempts and..."

So yeah, I would suggest that some change to the processes happen that acknowledges the huge role live streaming has here. This makes sense in the context of the greater need to have greater responsiveness. A more open verification and use of Twitch highlights combined could do that.

Perhaps an additional queue needs to happen. The existing personal verification/high quality encode could be preserved under the existing brand, keeping the standards up and avoiding dilution of that. But then some sort of SpeedDemosArchive LIVE branding could be used for the quicker, more responsive, more stream-oriented process that can get runs up quickly, accepting that the video quality will be lesser.

In time that will lessen the importance of the SDA gold standard, as people who aren't quitting a game will only submit to the LIVE kind, and in fact less interesting games/Bad Game Exchanges may not be worth the effort of full verification, either. But the option will be there, and we'll surely get great games run very well, verified no cheating.

SDA isn't broken I don't think. It never was a world records site, and it doesn't need to be one. But the site *can* capitalize on the wave, grow, and be more sustainable as a community if it adds something new, to take advantage of new technologies, and to offer a service to the new communities growing around them.

I don't think it needs to go as far as allowing emulators as SRL does, but then again, the streaming thing and the much greater quality of emulation these days really do change the game.

First, I want to say it's so great for the community for a big discussion like this to be had out in the open, where other stakeholders can take part.  I'm not really much of a stakeholder yet, but I'd like to think I'm going to get there as I get better at the speed running thing. :)

As for verification, if you read the verification forum, people who are streaming seem to get verified pretty easily.  The verifiers even say it: "I watched this run live and..." or "I watched the runner going through the attempts and..."

So yeah, I would suggest that some change to the processes happen that acknowledges the huge role live streaming has here.  This makes sense in the context of the greater need to have greater responsiveness.  A more open verification and use of Twitch highlights combined could do that.

Perhaps an additional queue needs to happen. The existing personal verification/high quality encode could be preserved under the existing brand, keeping the standards up and avoiding dilution of that.  But then some sort of SpeedDemosArchive LIVE branding could be used for the quicker, more responsive, more stream-oriented process that can get runs up quickly, accepting that the video quality will be lesser.

In time that will lessen the importance of the SDA gold standard, as people who aren't quitting a game will only submit to the LIVE kind, and in fact less interesting games/Bad Game Exchanges may not be worth the effort of full verification, either.  But the option will be there, and we'll surely get great games run very well, verified no cheating.

SDA isn't broken I don't think.  It never was a world records site, and it doesn't need to be one.  But the site *can* capitalize on the wave, grow, and be more sustainable as a community if it adds something new, to take advantage of new technologies, and to offer a service to the new communities growing around them.

I don't think it needs to go as far as allowing emulators as SRL does, but then again, the streaming thing and the much greater quality of emulation these days really do change the game.

lag.com@work

2012-11-09 04:31:39 am

about the submission time... if people feel that it takes too long, I won't argue with them. they obviously want the immediacy that twitch brings. I don't. I'd rather we had a rigorous process of verification, if only to separate SDA from these other communities that all do the same thing.

much has been made of this supposed 'rift' as of late. I'm not sure it's really that simple... I don't like a lot of the changes that increased popularity has brought. this focus towards popularity and personality saddens me. while it may not be practical for SDA to carry on as it always had (I had no issue with 'other games than Quake' for example) it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day.

this opening of the gates to the wider streaming (twitch) audience has also lessened the punishment that people have received for stepping out of line. lax moderation has encouraged some rather unfortunate instances of bullying and harrassment in the community, which while I don't blame SRL for, I think more can be done by both sites and its members to quash it. as a target of this from the entire of SRL's history I'm not exactly unbiased here but I've heard enough tales and seen enough evidence that some kind of statement of intent would be very welcome.

if nothing changes, or if the current trend of change continues, there will simply be no reason for me to be a member anymore. I love speedrunning. I've made some good friends (and a wife) here. but this website is now in danger of causing me much more sorrow than joy.

about the submission time... if people feel that it takes too long, I won't argue with them. they obviously want the immediacy that twitch brings. I don't. I'd rather we had a rigorous process of verification, if only to separate SDA from these other communities that all do the same thing.

much has been made of this supposed 'rift' as of late. I'm not sure it's really that simple... I don't like a lot of the changes that increased popularity has brought. this focus towards popularity and personality saddens me. while it may not be practical for SDA to carry on as it always had (I had no issue with 'other games than Quake' for example) it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day.

this opening of the gates to the wider streaming (twitch) audience has also lessened the punishment that people have received for stepping out of line. lax moderation has encouraged some rather unfortunate instances of bullying and harrassment in the community, which while I don't blame SRL for, I think more can be done by both sites and its members to quash it. as a target of this from the entire of SRL's history I'm not exactly unbiased here but I've heard enough tales and seen enough evidence that some kind of statement of intent would be very welcome.

if nothing changes, or if the current trend of change continues, there will simply be no reason for me to be a member anymore. I love speedrunning. I've made some good friends (and a wife) here. but this website is now in danger of causing me much more sorrow than joy.

ChristosOwen

2012-11-09 05:52:47 am

There have been some good points made so far and overall I'd agree that changes would be welcome to SDA, albeit that I've only really been around SDA and SRL for one year.

I'm not sure I agree with emulated runs being accepted in place of console runs, mainly for two reasons: 1. various emulators can (and do) run at different speeds in comparison to being played on console [see cyghfer/kryssstal's "mysteriously added seconds topic"], and whilst a mathematical conversion could be easily made, it lowers the consistency of having simply pure console runs listed (which IMO is better), and 2. playing on emulators allows keyboard vs controller (for 2D games at least) which is certainly an advantage for precision.

In terms of being able to record high quality runs: it's a lot simpler for people who are getting into speedrunning to just invest in "streaming equipment" opposed to "recording equipment". I've had to spend (a lot of) money and time learning how different programs work and solve a lot of kinks with my setup to allow streaming/recording simultaneously a reality. Admitedly, I'm not tech-savvy whatsoever and thankfully there have been a lot of friendly people who have helped me get setup over in #alttp and have offered advice etc - thanks y'all.

That being said, I think a leaderboard system would be a positive influence, since if you're restricted from having a decent setup to allow high quality recording possible, you can still submit a time which you're proud of and have recognition for it. Whilst I don't know what an optimal solution for SDA would be, I think it would be a positive change.

There have been some good points made so far and overall I'd agree that changes would be welcome to SDA, albeit that I've only really been around SDA and SRL for one year.

I'm not sure I agree with emulated runs being accepted in place of console runs, mainly for two reasons: 1. various emulators can (and do) run at different speeds in comparison to being played on console [see cyghfer/kryssstal's "mysteriously added seconds topic"], and whilst a mathematical conversion could be easily made, it lowers the consistency of having simply pure console runs listed (which IMO is better), and 2. playing on emulators allows keyboard vs controller (for 2D games at least) which is certainly an advantage for precision.

In terms of being able to record high quality runs: it's a lot simpler for people who are getting into speedrunning to just invest in "streaming equipment" opposed to "recording equipment". I've had to spend (a lot of) money and time learning how different programs work and solve a lot of kinks with my setup to allow streaming/recording simultaneously a reality. Admitedly, I'm not tech-savvy whatsoever and thankfully there have been a lot of friendly people who have helped me get setup over in #alttp and have offered advice etc - thanks y'all.

That being said, I think a leaderboard system would be a positive influence, since if you're restricted from having a decent setup to allow high quality recording possible, you can still submit a time which you're proud of and have recognition for it. Whilst I don't know what an optimal solution for SDA would be, I think it would be a positive change.

your_name_here

Edit history:

your_name_here: 2012-11-09 06:40:56 am

2012-11-09 06:38:02 am

I think that if we go with public verification, it solves a lot of problems. First, it means that runs will be available for viewing on SDA potentially within a week of their submission (at least in some form), which helps with relevance. Second, I believe that public verification would lead to more thorough verification. More people able to see problems, or even able to identify cheating. The current system is effectively just taking the first three people who would respond to the verification thread, and constraining the discussion to them. The final decision is still left with the admins, so if there's no one knowledgeable enough to verify, then the game can stay in open verification until someone who can properly verify comes along. Plus, it helps with the verification bottleneck. You don't have to worry about verifiers abandoning verification.

As for what Cosmo mentioned, why not go for a leaderboards section on the KB? It seems like a natural place for it, and would take very little effort on the part of the SDA admins. All it needs is the go-ahead.

I think that if we go with public verification, it solves a lot of problems. First, it means that runs will be available for viewing on SDA potentially within a week of their submission (at least in some form), which helps with relevance. Second, I believe that public verification would lead to more thorough verification. More people able to see problems, or even able to identify cheating. The current system is effectively just taking the first three people who would respond to the verification thread, and constraining the discussion to them. The final decision is still left with the admins, so if there's no one knowledgeable enough to verify, then the game can stay in open verification until someone who can properly verify comes along. Plus, it helps with the verification bottleneck. You don't have to worry about verifiers abandoning verification.

As for what Cosmo mentioned, why not go for a leaderboards section on the KB? It seems like a natural place for it, and would take very little effort on the part of the SDA admins. All it needs is the go-ahead.

CosmoWright

2012-11-09 06:48:10 am

Quote from your_name_here:

As for what Cosmo mentioned, why not go for a leaderboards section on the KB? It seems like a natural place for it, and would take very little effort on the part of the SDA admins. All it needs is the go-ahead.

the KB seems to be flooded with spam and what I'm envisioning wouldn't use wiki software but rather custom code + its own database.

Marlie Tang

Edit history:

Marlie Tang: 2012-11-09 07:08:51 am

2012-11-09 07:00:27 am

Hi I'm Kryssstal

Quote from ChristosOwen:

I'm not sure I agree with emulated runs being accepted in place of console runs, mainly for two reasons: 1. various emulators can (and do) run at different speeds in comparison to being played on console [see cyghfer/kryssstal's "mysteriously added seconds topic"], and whilst a mathematical conversion could be easily made, it lowers the consistency of having simply pure console runs listed (which IMO is better), and 2. playing on emulators allows keyboard vs controller (for 2D games at least) which is certainly an advantage for precision.

Emu runs should not suddenly be accepted, I agree. They're useful for practicing until you reach a desired skill level for "final" runs or whatever. Chances are someone still training on emu wouldn't care to submit the run anyway...it's just that some people are impatient and wouldn't mind mediocre console runs being submitted I guess. I know some people disagree with aiming for runs that are "submittable" (and despise the word), but aiming for that is just how things have turned out due to the turnaround time and strong likelihood of a run being outdated before it's posted. I also don't think SDA necessarily breeds this mentality though, for example I'm quite a perfectionist so I don't see the point in submitting a time that feels improvable unless it's on, say, something like a random leaderboard where other players would benefit from seeing newer tricks in it. Runs evolve faster with more people sharing good runs and brainstorming framesavers.

I kind of see emu runs as a teaser trailer with the intent of showing some interested people what's going on with the strat evolution, whereas SDA submissions are like the theatrical release.

Also emu is probably a big problem, even for SRL leaderboards, on non-2D consoles. It's a big can of worms to try comparing N64 emulators, VC, and original console together. Consoles like SNES are lucky enough to have accurate emus that are proven to not run faster than a console would, but that's sadly not the case for everything. I wouldn't want to see arguments over whether or not a Paper Mario run using this and that PJ64 plugin is more "accurate and thus legit" than some other arbitrary set of plugins.

Input device is definitely not the real issue, since I mean I think keyboard is impossible or less suited for just about any SNES game I've tried (SMRPG especially!!). It's neat for ALttP because it's a little easier to spam diagonals on keyboard than dpad, but this only makes a difference of some frames, and only in the first 10 mins of the run really. Also some itemdashes in Hera which also save like 15 frames, d*ng! So keyboard saving like, a second or two at most, does not really outweigh the slower framerate disadvantage (~14 second loss on ALttP full game run) that SNES emu players deal with.

Basically ignore emu and try to find a solution for all the people who have lossless quality console runs that they could submit, but choose not to because of various reasons.

[quote="ChristosOwen"]I'm not sure I agree with emulated runs being accepted in place of console runs, mainly for two reasons: 1. various emulators can (and do) run at different speeds in comparison to being played on console [see cyghfer/kryssstal's "mysteriously added seconds topic"], and whilst a mathematical conversion could be easily made, it lowers the consistency of having simply pure console runs listed (which IMO is better), and 2. playing on emulators allows keyboard vs controller (for 2D games at least) which is certainly an advantage for precision.[/quote]
Emu runs should not suddenly be accepted, I agree. They're useful for practicing until you reach a desired skill level for "final" runs or whatever. Chances are someone still training on emu wouldn't care to submit the run anyway...it's just that some people are impatient and wouldn't mind mediocre console runs being submitted I guess. I know some people disagree with aiming for runs that are "submittable" (and despise the word), but aiming for that is just how things have turned out due to the turnaround time and strong likelihood of a run being outdated before it's posted. I also don't think SDA necessarily breeds this mentality though, for example I'm quite a perfectionist so I don't see the point in submitting a time that feels improvable unless it's on, say, something like a random leaderboard where other players would benefit from seeing newer tricks in it. Runs evolve faster with more people sharing good runs and brainstorming framesavers.

I kind of see emu runs as a teaser trailer with the intent of showing some interested people what's going on with the strat evolution, whereas SDA submissions are like the theatrical release.

Also emu is probably a big problem, even for SRL leaderboards, on non-2D consoles. It's a big can of worms to try comparing N64 emulators, VC, and original console together. Consoles like SNES are lucky enough to have accurate emus that are proven to not run faster than a console would, but that's sadly not the case for everything. I wouldn't want to see arguments over whether or not a Paper Mario run using this and that PJ64 plugin is more "accurate and thus legit" than some other arbitrary set of plugins.

Input device is definitely not the real issue, since I mean I think keyboard is impossible or less suited for just about any SNES game I've tried (SMRPG especially!!). It's neat for ALttP because it's a little easier to spam diagonals on keyboard than dpad, but this only makes a difference of some frames, and only in the first 10 mins of the run really. Also some itemdashes in Hera which also save like 15 frames, d*ng! So keyboard saving like, a second or two at most, does not really outweigh the slower framerate disadvantage (~14 second loss on ALttP full game run) that SNES emu players deal with.

Basically ignore emu and try to find a solution for all the people who [i]have[/i] lossless quality console runs that they could submit, but choose not to because of various reasons.

your_name_here

Edit history:

your_name_here: 2012-11-09 07:23:27 am

2012-11-09 07:15:28 am

Quote from CosmoWright:

Quote from your_name_here:

As for what Cosmo mentioned, why not go for a leaderboards section on the KB? It seems like a natural place for it, and would take very little effort on the part of the SDA admins. All it needs is the go-ahead.

the KB seems to be flooded with spam and what I'm envisioning wouldn't use wiki software but rather custom code + its own database.

If you want a more structured approach, then it would make more sense to do it on the SRL side. You already have a database of runners and times, and you could do more interesting things with leaderboards if you had that data available.
And it doesn't really encroach on what SDA does that much. People don't have anywhere to look for up to date records. Right now, if I want to look for a newer run, it's a mess of checking the game thread on the SDA forums, the TSSB wiki page, or just searching for youtube videos. Looking at the SDA games list isn't even a step in that process.

[quote="CosmoWright"][quote="your_name_here"]As for what Cosmo mentioned, why not go for a leaderboards section on the KB? It seems like a natural place for it, and would take very little effort on the part of the SDA admins. All it needs is the go-ahead.[/quote]

the KB seems to be [url=http://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Special:RecentChanges]flooded with spam[/url] and what I'm envisioning wouldn't use wiki software but rather custom code + its own database.[/quote]

If you want a more structured approach, then it would make more sense to do it on the SRL side. You already have a database of runners and times, and you could do more interesting things with leaderboards if you had that data available.
And it doesn't really encroach on what SDA does that much. People don't have anywhere to look for up to date records. Right now, if I want to look for a newer run, it's a mess of checking the game thread on the SDA forums, the TSSB wiki page, or just searching for youtube videos. Looking at the SDA games list isn't even a step in that process.

bangerra

2012-11-09 07:23:01 am

Quote from your_name_here:

If you want a more structured approach, then it would make more sense to do it on the SRL side. You already have a database of runners and times, and you could do more interesting things with leaderboards if you had that data available.

The SRL database of times and runners isn't suitable for what we are going for here, as these are all times obtained in races and are thus far from optimal times. Some sort of strange blend between SRL leaderboards and SDA (quick) submission/verification might be the best approach here, but that's exactly what Cosmo has in mind if I am interpreting him well.

your_name_here

2012-11-09 07:25:12 am

Quote from bangerra:

The SRL database of times and runners isn't suitable for what we are going for here, as these are all times obtained in races and are thus far from optimal times. Some sort of strange blend between SRL leaderboards and SDA (quick) submission/verification might be the best approach here, but that's exactly what Cosmo has in mind if I am interpreting him well.

Race times are still comparable. I don't mean to have just the race times, but to show race times and submitted times on the same page might be a useful thing to do.

CosmoWright

2012-11-09 07:27:44 am

Quote from your_name_here:

And it doesn't really encroach on what SDA does that much. People don't have anywhere to look for up to date records. Right now, if I want to look for a newer run, it's a mess of checking the game thread on the SDA forums, the TSSB wiki page, or just searching for youtube videos. Looking at the SDA games list isn't even a step in that process.

yea I pretty much want to mitigate this problem before it grows a bit out of control because of the huge surge of new people setting PBs and WRs all the time. I sort of see SDA submission as something that I would do as a final run of a game + am completely done with it. This is why I have 0 runs on SDA (I currently have 0 runs I'm satisfied with fully). also keep in mind this leaderboard idea would not be hosting videos of any kind but only linking externally.

Chumlum

2012-11-09 07:31:46 am

Quote from lag.com@work:

about the submission time... if people feel that it takes too long, I won't argue with them. they obviously want the immediacy that twitch brings. I don't. I'd rather we had a rigorous process of verification, if only to separate SDA from these other communities that all do the same thing.

much has been made of this supposed 'rift' as of late. I'm not sure it's really that simple... I don't like a lot of the changes that increased popularity has brought. this focus towards popularity and personality saddens me. while it may not be practical for SDA to carry on as it always had (I had no issue with 'other games than Quake' for example) it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day.

this opening of the gates to the wider streaming (twitch) audience has also lessened the punishment that people have received for stepping out of line. lax moderation has encouraged some rather unfortunate instances of bullying and harrassment in the community, which while I don't blame SRL for, I think more can be done by both sites and its members to quash it. as a target of this from the entire of SRL's history I'm not exactly unbiased here but I've heard enough tales and seen enough evidence that some kind of statement of intent would be very welcome.

if nothing changes, or if the current trend of change continues, there will simply be no reason for me to be a member anymore. I love speedrunning. I've made some good friends (and a wife) here. but this website is now in danger of causing me much more sorrow than joy.

Holy shit we must be like, brothers or something. I love complaining.

[quote="lag.com@work"]about the submission time... if people feel that it takes too long, I won't argue with them. they obviously want the immediacy that twitch brings. I don't. I'd rather we had a rigorous process of verification, if only to separate SDA from these other communities that all do the same thing.

much has been made of this supposed 'rift' as of late. I'm not sure it's really that simple... I don't like a lot of the changes that increased popularity has brought. this focus towards popularity and personality saddens me. while it may not be practical for SDA to carry on as it always had (I had no issue with 'other games than Quake' for example) it makes me feel as though I no longer belong, as I have little to no chance of being noticed anymore without streaming a popular game 10 hours a day.

this opening of the gates to the wider streaming (twitch) audience has also lessened the punishment that people have received for stepping out of line. lax moderation has encouraged some rather unfortunate instances of bullying and harrassment in the community, which while I don't blame SRL for, I think more can be done by both sites and its members to quash it. as a target of this from the entire of SRL's history I'm not exactly unbiased here but I've heard enough tales and seen enough evidence that some kind of statement of intent would be very welcome.

if nothing changes, or if the current trend of change continues, there will simply be no reason for me to be a member anymore. I love speedrunning. I've made some good friends (and a wife) here. but this website is now in danger of causing me much more sorrow than joy.[/quote]

Holy shit we must be like, brothers or something. I [i]love[/i] complaining.