Cold Fear - May 3rd, 2009

2009-05-03 01:17:01 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Verifier Responses

Quote:

I watched the Cold Fear run,and here's some notes about it.

Didn't find problems with audio,didn't find difference in the bullet numbers,no cheating.The run is superb.Amazing how Ajax rushed through the game.Another masterpiece.Don't want to nag. Grin

Accepted.

Quote:

No problems found with the audio/video quality. In the IQ video there was a bit of audio desync around 26:40, but in the seperate segment 19 video there was no desync so it should be ok.

No inconsistencies found.

The gameplay is pretty good, there are some things that could be polished a bit more and a bit more luck manipulation from body searches and such but it's not too bad.
The camera/movement in this game is quite a pain, too.

I was wondering, at 29:13 in the IQ video, why didn't the runner take the right path instead of going around the container on the left?

The runner picks up the Grenade Launcher at 16:44 but he never uses it, costs him a few seconds.
Same at 33:27 where he picks up the Submachine Gun but never uses the gun. He was aiming to get a Health Pack from the corpse, if he moved a bit further he would've searched the corpse only.

At 36:23 he enters the Armory to refill his ammo, this wasn't needed, he could've completed the game with the ammo he had at that point. Costs him about 8 seconds.

As the runner stated himself in the thread, he recorded segment 19 with something like 120-150 FPS so that the game runs like 2 times faster in order to skip a fight with a big enemy. I don't agree with this, it's just not right to have the game run 2 times faster. And if the run still gets accepted, someone else might aswell record the entire game at 150 FPS then...

I'm rejecting the run mainly because of the speeded up part.

This sped up part is actually explained in the runner's comments.

Quote:

26:27 You need about 150-200fps to be able to skip the boss, that's why the
video looks 3 times faster than the rest of the run.

I remember using gunshot guncam or something similar to record this so my FPS
won't get capped while playing since fraps caps it at 100.

When I think about it, I could have done the whole run running the game at 200fps,
I don't know why I didn't do this. The run would have end up 10 min faster.

The "10 min faster" line brings up an interesting point. There are two things I can do.

1. Reject the run because he didn't play at 150-200 FPS the entire time.

2. Reject the run because he didn't play at the default speed the entire time.

I am going to have to go with the second choice. The first choice would introduce too many gray areas and possibly wouldn't work on all computers. However, if the game has an in-game option (Escape Velocity Nova, Red Star) to speed up the game, that is okay.

Decision: Reject

Reason: The run is good, but the FPS trick isn't allowed.

Thread title:

Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

[b]Verifier Responses[/b]

[quote]I watched the Cold Fear run,and here's some notes about it.

Didn't find problems with audio,didn't find difference in the bullet numbers,no cheating.The run is superb.Amazing how Ajax rushed through the game.Another masterpiece.Don't want to nag. ;D

Accepted.[/quote]

[quote]No problems found with the audio/video quality. In the IQ video there was a bit of audio desync around 26:40, but in the seperate segment 19 video there was no desync so it should be ok.

No inconsistencies found.

The gameplay is pretty good, there are some things that could be polished a bit more and a bit more luck manipulation from body searches and such but it's not too bad.
The camera/movement in this game is quite a pain, too.

I was wondering, at 29:13 in the IQ video, why didn't the runner take the right path instead of going around the container on the left?

The runner picks up the Grenade Launcher at 16:44 but he never uses it, costs him a few seconds.
Same at 33:27 where he picks up the Submachine Gun but never uses the gun. He was aiming to get a Health Pack from the corpse, if he moved a bit further he would've searched the corpse only.

At 36:23 he enters the Armory to refill his ammo, this wasn't needed, he could've completed the game with the ammo he had at that point. Costs him about 8 seconds.

As the runner stated himself in the thread, he recorded segment 19 with something like 120-150 FPS so that the game runs like 2 times faster in order to skip a fight with a big enemy. I don't agree with this, it's just not right to have the game run 2 times faster. And if the run still gets accepted, someone else might aswell record the entire game at 150 FPS then...

I'm rejecting the run mainly because of the speeded up part.[/quote]

This sped up part is actually explained in the runner's comments.

[quote]26:27    You need about 150-200fps to be able to skip the boss, that's why the
            video looks 3 times faster than the rest of the run.

I remember using gunshot guncam or something similar to record this so my FPS
           won't get capped while playing since fraps caps it at 100.

When I think about it, I could have done the whole run running the game at 200fps,
           I don't know why I didn't do this. The run would have end up 10 min faster.[/quote]

The "10 min faster" line brings up an interesting point. There are two things I can do.

1. Reject the run because he didn't play at 150-200 FPS the entire time.

2. Reject the run because he didn't play at the default speed the entire time.

I am going to have to go with the second choice. The first choice would introduce too many gray areas and possibly wouldn't work on all computers. However, if the game has an in-game option (Escape Velocity Nova, Red Star) to speed up the game, that is okay.

[b]Decision[/b]: Reject

[b]Reason[/b]: The run is good, but the FPS trick isn't allowed.

AjAX

2009-05-03 01:44:20 pm

If anyone want to see the run just tell me I'll upload it.

InstinctSage

2009-07-01 01:04:52 am

Ur-Quan. You're for dinner.

I would love to see a Cold Fear run, if the offer for uploading is still open.

Any plans of a resubmit without the FPS glitch? It was a refreshingly fun game.

ExplodingCabbage

2009-07-01 06:50:08 am

Mike, as I've said before I think SDA badly needs a rule on what FPS runners are allowed to play at. This issue has come up before, particularly in regard to games where the speed of some elements is proportionate to FPS and others progress at a fixed speed in real time e.g. the A Vintage Year elevator in Hitman: Blood Money where you lose time at lower FPS and a conversation in one Thief game where a runner said he could save time by playing at a lower FPS. For these cases a rule demanding a minimum FPS of 30 throughout the run (which tends to be the tipping point below which games start to slow some game elements down to cope) would be beneficial. As it stands you told the Thief runner he couldn't reduce his FPS to 1 for that section, but there's still a grey area; what if he decides to run the whole game at 20 FPS to get a small advantage in that section? Would that be disallowed?

Also, there are some games (it sounds like this may be one of them, not sure) where there is no max FPS or default FPS or anything like that, and no in-game timer, and game speed is proportional to frame rate (i.e. the game runs twice as fast at 100FPS as it does at 50FPS). Generally these are old DOS games, e.g. C&C1, Red Alert, the 'Quest' adventure games, the original GTA1 (a frame limiter was added in the freeware version), etc.) These games are perfectly runnable as long as a fixed FPS rule is imposed. I don't know whether this is something SDA would consider doing or not.

Mike, as I've said before I think SDA badly needs a rule on what FPS runners are allowed to play at. This issue has come up before, particularly in regard to games where the speed of some elements is proportionate to FPS and others progress at a fixed speed in real time e.g. the A Vintage Year elevator in Hitman: Blood Money where you lose time at lower FPS and a conversation in one Thief game where a runner said he could save time by playing at a lower FPS. For these cases a rule demanding a minimum FPS of 30 throughout the run (which tends to be the tipping point below which games start to slow some game elements down to cope) would be beneficial. As it stands you told the Thief runner he couldn't reduce his FPS to 1 for that section, but there's still a grey area; what if he decides to run the whole game at 20 FPS to get a small advantage in that section? Would that be disallowed?

Also, there are some games (it sounds like this may be one of them, not sure) where there is no max FPS or default FPS or anything like that, and no in-game timer, and game speed is proportional to frame rate (i.e. the game runs twice as fast at 100FPS as it does at 50FPS). Generally these are old DOS games, e.g. C&C1, Red Alert, the 'Quest' adventure games, the original GTA1 (a frame limiter was added in the freeware version), etc.) These games are perfectly runnable as long as a fixed FPS rule is imposed. I don't know whether this is something SDA would consider doing or not.

mikwuyma

2009-07-01 07:40:08 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I don't know if you've actually brought up this issue before, but you're right, it does need some clarification.

The general rule of thumb I've used is play the game at 100% speed, no more, no less. If there is no default FPS for a game, then it will have to be decided on a case by case basis (60 fps for one game could be much different than 60 fps on another game).

ExplodingCabbage

2009-07-01 10:19:09 am

Quote from mikwuyma:

I don't know if you've actually brought up this issue before

Proof of my honesty at the end of this page:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,9544.15.html
Wink

Quote:

The general rule of thumb I've used is play the game at 100% speed, no more, no less.

This sounds like a generally good rule, since it allows runners to play at anywhere above 30FPS for most games (generally slowdown only occurs if you go below some critical value in the 10-25 FPS range. There is still the hypothetical problem that certain game elements could be framerate dependent even for >30 FPS range while most run in real time, and this might not be realised until after a run is submitted. Still, we can cross that bridge if we come to it.

Quote:

If there is no default FPS for a game, then it will have to be decided on a case by case basis (60 fps for one game could be much different than 60 fps on another game).

It's worth noting that restricting FPS to a range for such games is basically the same thing as specifying a fixed FPS (if we specify a range and time in real time, everyone will use the max FPS allowed for faster speed, if we specify a range and time in frames, everyone will use the minimum FPS allowed to slow things down for better control), so if those are the two choices we should do the latter.

I agree with the 'case by case basis' statement. Generally I think we'll be specifying rates between 30 and 60 FPS.

[quote="mikwuyma"]I don't know if you've actually brought up this issue before[/quote]

Proof of my honesty at the end of this page:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,9544.15.html
;)

[quote]The general rule of thumb I've used is play the game at 100% speed, no more, no less.[/quote]

This sounds like a generally good rule, since it allows runners to play at anywhere above 30FPS for most games (generally slowdown only occurs if you go below some critical value in the 10-25 FPS range. There is still the hypothetical problem that certain game elements could be framerate dependent even for >30 FPS range while most run in real time, and this might not be realised until after a run is submitted. Still, we can cross that bridge if we come to it.

[quote]If there is no default FPS for a game, then it will have to be decided on a case by case basis (60 fps for one game could be much different than 60 fps on another game).[/quote]

It's worth noting that restricting FPS to a range for such games is basically the same thing as specifying a fixed FPS (if we specify a range and time in real time, everyone will use the max FPS allowed for faster speed, if we specify a range and time in frames, everyone will use the minimum FPS allowed to slow things down for better control), so if those are the two choices we should do the latter.

I agree with the 'case by case basis' statement. Generally I think we'll be specifying rates between 30 and 60 FPS.

AjAX

2009-07-01 12:24:39 pm

Well if somebody knows a place where I can upload a 45 min videos for streaming tell me and I will upload it, otherwise I don't know what I can do.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, if I want to rerun the game, what should I do, play at 200-600fps or play at 60fps?

InsipidMuckyWater

2009-07-01 02:41:41 pm

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Ajax, could you segment the video (10 minutes or what have you in each clip) and post it somewhere? I never realized this went through the verification stage already and was rejected, but I'd definitely like to see it.

mikwuyma

2009-07-01 02:54:01 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from AjAX:

EDIT: Now that I think about it, if I want to rerun the game, what should I do, play at 200-600fps or play at 60fps?

60, I assume that's the normal (or at least somewhat normal) speed.

InstinctSage

2009-07-01 08:32:52 pm

Ur-Quan. You're for dinner.

Inasmuch as there isn't any standard refresh rate, I think you can make a case for a range of generally acceptable rates. Console games will want to run at 30 or 60fps, at least for NTSC, but it's a fair spot to draw a line in the sand.

PC games never had any standard per se, but if you're getting below 30 then it'll start getting choppy and moving towards unplayably bad - the simulation might run a bit slower but your accuracy is going to suffer. Your standard LCD monitor can't refresh faster than 75fps, with higher quality ones refreshing at around 100, so going higher than that is not improving the visual experience at all, and likewise any extra smoothing of input isn't going to be displayed visually, so you can't actually get much more fine control.

Basically, I see no reason why anyone should want to play below 30fps or above 100fps except for the purpose of altering the game's calculations for their advantage. Asking people to play at a consistent frame rate (taking into account the havoc Fraps et al can cause) is arguably more important than nitpicking over what frame rate they're maintaining, so long as it's within the 30-100 range. No game I know of is "designed" to run outside that range, so unless someone can make a case for running outside those bounds, it shouldn't adversely affect their run to operate within them.

Inasmuch as there isn't any standard refresh rate, I think you can make a case for a range of generally acceptable rates. Console games will want to run at 30 or 60fps, at least for NTSC, but it's a fair spot to draw a line in the sand.

PC games never had any standard per se, but if you're getting below 30 then it'll start getting choppy and moving towards unplayably bad - the simulation might run a bit slower but your accuracy is going to suffer. Your standard LCD monitor can't refresh faster than 75fps, with higher quality ones refreshing at around 100, so going higher than that is not improving the visual experience at all, and likewise any extra smoothing of input isn't going to be displayed visually, so you can't actually get much more fine control.

Basically, I see no reason why anyone should want to play below 30fps or above 100fps except for the purpose of altering the game's calculations for their advantage. Asking people to play at a consistent frame rate (taking into account the havoc Fraps et al can cause) is arguably more important than nitpicking over what frame rate they're maintaining, so long as it's within the 30-100 range. No game I know of is "designed" to run outside that range, so unless someone can make a case for running outside those bounds, it shouldn't adversely affect their run to operate within them.

AjAX

Edit history:

AjAX: 2009-07-01 11:19:35 pm

2009-07-01 10:50:30 pm

Quote from InsipidMuckyWater:

Ajax, could you segment the video (10 minutes or what have you in each clip) and post it somewhere? I never realized this went through the verification stage already and was rejected, but I'd definitely like to see it.

Well, there is about 3/4 of the run uploaded here.

EDIT: I found a way to trim mp4 with vdub, I'm ripping the end of the run and I will post it on youtube, its around 7 min long.

InstinctSage

2009-07-02 10:39:25 pm

Ur-Quan. You're for dinner.

Nice run. Seems like you could cut out a few of the body searches on the ship, and the AK doesn't seem near as useful as the shotgun, plus you got grabbed by that cloaked specimen at the start of segment 18, but otherwise, that was pretty damn speedy.

I forgot how generous that game is with giving you a health pack on just about every body search when you're below 1/4. Tongue

AjAX

2009-07-02 10:48:52 pm

Yep that's definitively true.

InsipidMuckyWater

2009-07-03 11:50:36 pm

Visit my profile to see my runs!

There are 23 segments posted on Youtube, but the 23rd does not look the conclusion. Is there more I'm not seeing, or are you still ripping the end?

AjAX

2009-07-04 12:25:05 am

There is 7 minutes more, I'm trying to rip but i'm having huge desych problem I will upload as soon as I can fix it.

AjAX

2009-07-24 01:10:23 pm

Ok, i'm trying something else just now, at dailymotion you can be a (creative user), so that imply having no limits at all for lenght and filesize, I'm currently uploading the IQ, when I come back from work I will see if it has worked, cause dailymotion staff has to verify it, but althought I am not sure, i'm giving it a try.

InsipidMuckyWater

2009-07-24 07:29:01 pm

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Alright, cool. Keep us posted.

AjAX

2009-07-25 09:00:46 am

Fuck that.
http://tombrunner.net/Coldfear/