Circle of the Moon

2007-03-06 03:56:41 am

Visually Appealing

where the hell was I when you said that?

and this would be a case where the current run would be obsoleted even if segmented due to the increase in play quality.

VorpalEdge

2007-03-06 05:04:19 am

welcome to the machine

The DSS glitch is not allowed because of the existence of magician mode, iirc.

Serris

2007-03-06 05:15:03 am

The DSS glitch doesn't make VK the same as Magician. Persona is currently working on a nearly finished Magician run, 21 mins in front of Drac. The VK mode TAS clocks in at 22 mins.

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-03-06 01:02:03 pm

2007-03-06 12:56:21 pm

Never give up!

Unless we have some precedent (accepted live-console speedruns where something that's otherwise not available AT ALL until the last quarter of the game is made available early due to a severe glitch), I'm going to have to say that accepting the DSS glitch as the standard, rather than as its own category, is a bad idea. (I am not against allowing the DSS glitch its own category, since although it makes VK mode very similar to Magician mode, there's still just enough difference to distinguish the two. Especially since I'm pretty sure the glitch can be done in Shooter and Luck modes too. Though if the DSS glitch is still not allowed outright, that's fine to me as well.)

Anyway, I thought about this game, and although I'd probably never attempt it in a mode like Magician (I HATE Pluto and Black Dog, the combo that causes Magician to do so well, with a passion), doing this in Vampire Killer mode seems much more appealing (though don't count me in just yet).

As far as DSS cards, I see only three as necessary: Jupiter, Salamander, and Serpent. The fireball shield would be used on bosses like Hugh, who don't shed destroyable projectiles rampantly, because each hit of the fireball shield equals a hit from the whip last I checked. (You wouldn't ignore the whip, though - don't get that idea.) The ice ball shield would be used on bosses like Dracula 2, where it would serve the purpose of destroying projectiles so attention could be focused on hitting the boss.

Beyond those three cards, I say this should be treated somewhat like a run of Fighter mode - attempt to get Strength boosting items when possible, get some extra hearts, and rely on the Cross sub-weapon as soon as you can for fighting bosses.

In my opinion, I'd rather see an updated VampireKiller mode run before seeing someone do Shooter or Luck modes.

...and by the way, Satoryu, are you sure 'abysmal' is the best word you can come up with to describe the current VK mode run?

Unless we have some precedent (accepted live-console speedruns where something that's otherwise not available AT ALL until the last quarter of the game is made available early due to a severe glitch), I'm going to have to say that accepting the DSS glitch as the standard, rather than as its own category, is a bad idea.  (I am not against allowing the DSS glitch its own category, since although it makes VK mode very similar to Magician mode, there's still just enough difference to distinguish the two.  Especially since I'm pretty sure the glitch can be done in Shooter and Luck modes too.  Though if the DSS glitch is still not allowed outright, that's fine to me as well.)

Anyway, I thought about this game, and although I'd probably never attempt it in a mode like Magician (I HATE Pluto and Black Dog, the combo that causes Magician to do so well, with a passion), doing this in Vampire Killer mode seems much more appealing (though don't count me in just yet).

As far as DSS cards, I see only three as necessary: Jupiter, Salamander, and Serpent.  The fireball shield would be used on bosses like Hugh, who don't shed destroyable projectiles rampantly, because each hit of the fireball shield equals a hit from the whip last I checked.  (You wouldn't ignore the whip, though - don't get that idea.)  The ice ball shield would be used on bosses like Dracula 2, where it would serve the purpose of destroying projectiles so attention could be focused on hitting the boss.

Beyond those three cards, I say this should be treated somewhat like a run of Fighter mode - attempt to get Strength boosting items when possible, get some extra hearts, and rely on the Cross sub-weapon as soon as you can for fighting bosses.

In my opinion, I'd rather see an updated VampireKiller mode run before seeing someone do Shooter or Luck modes.

...and by the way, Satoryu, are you sure 'abysmal' is the best word you can come up with to describe the current VK mode run?

2007-03-06 04:30:10 pm

Visually Appealing

trying to get a card out of an enemy for 15 minutes at a time does not a good speedrun make. that one really should've been segmented.

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-03-06 10:55:15 pm

2007-03-06 09:28:31 pm

Never give up!

Quote:

trying to get a card out of an enemy for 15 minutes at a time does not a good speedrun make. that one really should've been segmented.

Ahahahahaha....... well, that's not quite what I mean.

What I mean is that 'abysmal' isn't strong enough of a word.

Edit: And as far as the three specific cards I mentioned go, from personal experience I'm going to say Serpent is the one that is the most aggravating. I say give up to three chances to get it (meaning kill up to three Earth Demons), and up to ten to get Jupiter before calling the run attempt a failure (Salamander just needs to be gotten on any Skeleton Bomber before Cerberus, since there's plenty to pass by). It'd still be faster than the current SS run that way (in terms of overall card collecting).

2007-03-07 02:01:01 am

http://tasvideos.org/Movies-GBA.html

DSS glitch should not be allowed. TAS is proof. 5 minutes, wtf.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2007-03-07 02:08:31 am

2007-03-07 02:08:01 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

That isn't the DSS glitch. The DSS glitch is used in the "non-glitched" TAS too.

Anyways, I don't see any reason to ban the DSS glitch. I'll probably end up making it a separate category though.

BTW, it was Soteos who said DSS glitch is pointless because of Magician mode, not Radix.

2007-03-07 04:23:40 am

Wait, then what IS the DSS glitch?

<-Uneducated Lips Sealed

Sir VG

2007-03-07 06:04:37 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote:

Wait, then what IS the DSS glitch?

<-Uneducated Lips Sealed

The DSS glitch is the following. You need 2 cards (one from each row). You select the two cards you have and activate DSS powers. As it activates, pause back into the menu, go to the cards, select any 2 cards you want, then exit out of the menu. The DSS power that activates is the two cards you selected, not the two you have.

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2007-03-07 06:24:34 am

2007-03-07 06:24:22 am

That's the glitch I was talking about. The guy took advantage of it to launch himself up into the ceremonial room through ceilings and crap.

Edit history:

AquaTiger: 2007-03-07 12:31:33 pm

2007-03-07 12:30:55 pm

Never give up!

No, what you're referring to is abusing the 'rising' part of a summon ability to put the character through a wall and cause zipping. That's a separate glitch - even if the DSS glitch is involved, the DSS glitch itself is not the cause. (How possible is the wallzipping glitch on a console? If it's possible, I'd want to see someone demonstrate this by using the card combo while HAVING both of the needed cards.)

As was previously said, the OTHER TAS of Circle of the Moon uses the DSS glitch as well - it just uses it in a closer-to-normal playthrough (for getting effects like Pluto + Griffin, the speed-boosting combo, before even fighting Cerberus).

Sir VG

2007-03-07 02:54:06 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Even if it is possible on a console, I'm sure radix/mike would shoot down that run because it breaks the game's boundaries.

2007-03-07 04:41:31 pm

Never give up!

Eh, I don't expect that glitch to be allowed.

It's more to demonstrate the point to Undersk0re, who seems to be confusing two fairly different glitches here.

2007-03-07 07:53:27 pm

nvm, I thought it was some kind of side effect to that glitch. I get it now =P

2007-04-29 01:45:04 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I was just looking over the existing speedruns for CotM, and I was wondering...why do they bother fighting Adramalech and going through the underground waterway? From Golem, you can skip Adramalech, Dracozombies, and Death (and their respective areas) and all but a few rooms of Waterway and go straight to Camilla, and once you have the Roc's Wing it's just a matter of dooring to the observation tower, getting the Last Key, and scragging Dracula. Nolan Pflug even mentions (in the SS Fighter Mode comments) what a bastard of an area Waterway is when you don't have Cleansing, but makes no effort to skip it.
You can skip Camilla, too, and go straight to Hugh from Golem, but unless you're in Magician mode (and thus have Pluto|Unicorn) this probably costs you more time than it saves.
So, is there some disadvantage to skipping Chapel, Adramalech and Waterway that I'm unaware of?

2007-04-29 03:22:40 am

Visually Appealing

those can't be skipped. defeating Adramelech lets you destroy the green pillar thing thats guarding the Waterway. and there's no way to get to Observation Tower without Roc's Wing.

Edit history:

ToxicFrog: 2007-04-29 04:32:16 am

2007-04-29 04:27:42 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I beg to differ.

Using the Kick Boots, you can climb a single wall - hold the d-pad towards the wall and hold R and each walljump will be about 2 tiles higher than the last. Using this technique, you can enter the Waterway using the back door that you're meant to use to exit after getting the Roc Wing, hit the save point, then head left, down, right and you're at the entrance to Camilla's chamber. No need to even set foot in the chapel.

Furthermore, you can enter the Observation Tower using this technique (I actually tested this earlier today). You can in fact complete the entire observation tower using the kick boots and an ice attack - there's two places where you need to freeze an enemy to get some extra height, one on the way in and one on the way out. However, I highly recommend having Pluto|Unicorn when doing so, as otherwise it takes forever to deal with the Legions - you can't just blaze past them like you can with the wing. For speedrunning purposes this pretty much means you can only do this in Magician mode, and even then it's doubtful whether you save more time by skipping Camilla than you lose by walljumping your way through the tower.

Skipping Camilla entirely is of limited use, especially since without the Roc's Wing, Dracula's charge attack will kill you dead unless you can use DSS invulnerability to ignore it. But the Chapel and Adramalech can be ignored entirely, allowing you to go Catacombs - Cerberus - Audience Hall - Necromancer - Machine Tower - Golem - Camilla - Observation Tower - Hugh - Dracula.

I don't have GBA recording gear handy, but I can demonstrate this on an emulator if you like. In the meantime, here's a screenshot of the map as I fight Camilla:

I beg to differ.

Using the Kick Boots, you can climb a single wall - hold the d-pad towards the wall and hold R and each walljump will be about 2 tiles higher than the last. Using this technique, you can enter the Waterway using the back door that you're meant to use to exit after getting the Roc Wing, hit the save point, then head left, down, right and you're at the entrance to Camilla's chamber. No need to even set foot in the chapel.

Furthermore, you can enter the Observation Tower using this technique (I actually tested this earlier today). You can in fact complete the entire observation tower using the kick boots and an ice attack - there's two places where you need to freeze an enemy to get some extra height, one on the way in and one on the way out. However, I highly recommend having Pluto|Unicorn when doing so, as otherwise it takes forever to deal with the Legions - you can't just blaze past them like you can with the wing. For speedrunning purposes this pretty much means you can only do this in Magician mode, and even then it's doubtful whether you save more time by skipping Camilla than you lose by walljumping your way through the tower.

Skipping Camilla entirely is of limited use, especially since without the Roc's Wing, Dracula's charge attack will [i]kill you dead[/i] unless you can use DSS invulnerability to ignore it. But the Chapel and Adramalech can be ignored entirely, allowing you to go Catacombs - Cerberus - Audience Hall - Necromancer - Machine Tower - Golem - Camilla - Observation Tower - Hugh - Dracula.

I don't have GBA recording gear handy, but I can demonstrate this on an emulator if you like. In the meantime, here's a screenshot of the map as I fight Camilla:
[img]http://www.funkyhorror.net/toxicfrog/shinies/c-cotm_camilla_SB.png[/img]

Edit history:

Satoryu: 2007-04-29 05:11:04 am

2007-04-29 04:57:20 am

Visually Appealing

if the TASers don't use it, its slower. and they don't.

tried out jumping up one wall. there must be more to it.

Edit history:

ToxicFrog: 2007-04-29 05:19:23 am

2007-04-29 05:13:11 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I'm going to have to ask the runners themselves for a final word on this, I think, but the CotM TASes I've seen (excluding the one that glitches to, and kills, Dracula in about five minutes) all use the DSS glitch to activate Pluto|Griffin, which probably changes the timing considerably.

I remain doubtful, however, that without Pluto|Griffin it's still faster to climb the whole chapel, kill Adramalech, go all the way back down, door to the Catacombs, go through the entire Waterway, and then kill Camilla than it is to just climb the wall and kill Camilla as soon as you exit the Eternal Corridor.

tried out jumping up one wall. there must be more to it.

What do you mean?

2007-04-29 05:42:17 am

Visually Appealing

i mean i got no extra height out of it. i only fell a bunch of tiles like normal. is there something i'm missing here?

i believe using DSS glitch would be a seperate category here because it'd be so similar to Magician.

2007-04-29 06:27:17 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Ok, I'm an idiot. :-[

Turns out that I had always-run enabled this whole time, which messes with walljump physics - in particular, you keep run speed even after walljumping, which is not normal.
Memo to self: next time, dig up the cart and verify that this works on the actual hardware first.